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EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"Danny D." writes:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote: This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud. I don't drive a diesel. What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? Oopops. Forgot to include the url: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l-controversy/ What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection? How does this UREA injection work? It's in the article: All the other carmakers control diesel emissions by spraying a urea solution into the exhaust stream, where a catalyst converts it to ammonia. The ammonia breaks down NOx into nitrogen and water. -- Dan Espen |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In rec.autos.tech Lucia Gallo wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:57:34 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote: My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? Staying on topic, this article says the cheat only worked when there was a DYNO involved! http://www.chron.com/business/energy...on-6520088.php Here are the contiguous quotes: (begin quote) VW used secret software ? an algorithm that detects when cars are being tested on treadmill-like devices called dynamometers, and stealthily switches the engines to a cleaner mode. Because *smog tests are almost always done on dynamometers*, VW got away with the scheme for seven years, until the "clean transportation" advocates went to West Virginia University, which tests emissions using equipment that fits in car trunks. (end quote) I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 8:40:48 PM UTC-5, Chuck Yew wrote:
On 9/21/2015 8:27 PM, Alina Popescu wrote: On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT), wrote: They got their buddies selling dynos to be rich. Why is it called a dyno if it's spelled dynamometer? Why not call it a dyna? Mechanics are unable to spell and can seldom pronounce words with more than one syllable? It's a good thing you're an expert mechanic and never have to get assistance with your vehicles by someone with a much lower IQ than yourself. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Mechanical Monster |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:07:31 -0700, Jack Myers wrote:
I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. They didn't explicity mention that, but this article has a section named How did this alleged cheat work exactly? http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-di...g-c-1731857018 |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:44:12 -0700, Sam Wilhelm wrote:
How did this alleged cheat work exactly? http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...estions/page-2 (4) What exactly did VW do? Volkswagen has admitted that it equipped the control software for its 2.0-liter TDI diesel vehicles with a "defeat device" that detected when the car was undergoing emissions testing and significantly changed the operations of its powertrain to reduce emissions during the tests. That detection was likely based on a combination of sensor data from the car, which might include steering angle (since cars on dynamometer tests don't make turns), front-wheel versus rear-wheel rotation speed, and a variety of other factors. It appears that a combination of the factors above plus extremely gentle acceleration and braking might alert the car that it wasn't on the road but being tested in a lab. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:46:48 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:
But it doesn't answer HOW. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...estions/page-2 Based on discussions with knowledgeable sources, we surmise that once an emissions test was detected, VW got the affected TDI engines to meet the Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limits by reducing the fuel flow rate. This would reduce performance, but most likely not to the point where the car couldn't complete the emission cycles. Lowering fuel flow would also reduce combustion temperatures and/or the duration of high-temperature operation enough to keep NOx emissions barely within EPA limits. If the car detected that it was no longer in "testing mode" but had returned to "driving mode," it would restore fuel flow to the regular level--which would send NOx emissions soaring. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:
My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:05:54 -0700, Jack Black wrote:
My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module (ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is calling this the "switch". The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration". |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 9:13:32 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:34:46 -0500, Danny D. wrote: On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote: This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud. I don't drive a diesel. What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? Oopops. Forgot to include the url: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l-controversy/ What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? Apparently a way to avoid the urea injection everyone else used to get emissions down to the legal limit. And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection? Both are supposedly ways to meet emissions standards. One works. The other is Wizard of Oz engineering apparently. The big remaining question that hasn't been answered is if they can meet the EPA requirements on the dyno test by turning the emissions controls on and/or re-tuning the car, why didn't they just leave it on? I'm guessing it must have affected MPG or performance? The other interesting thing is that when I first heard this, I thought the difference must be some small margin, 10% maybe. According to the news last night, the difference is 10x to 40x? Sure looks like they are in deep doo doo. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:07:31 -0700, "Jack Myers"
wrote in I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. That's the most feasible, i.e. simple, approach to designing the bypass firmware algorithm that I've seen. -- Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one. Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those newspapers delivered to your door every morning. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote:
snip I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
I think a potato stuffed up the exhaust pipe would do just as much at half
the cost. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 8:42:32 AM UTC-4, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:07:31 -0700, "Jack Myers" wrote in I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. That's the most feasible, i.e. simple, approach to designing the bypass firmware algorithm that I've seen. -- Seems to me that's a failed algorithm. Aren't these cars front wheel drive, ie he has it backwards? Heard on the news last night mention of the steering wheel remaining stationary was an input used too. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
| My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions? | I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a discrepancy between testing and on-road results. But they've been haggling with VW all this time and somehow never thought to look at the software. Is the software accessible to EPA? Do they have developers who could understand it? How the test is faked is just a technical issue. How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the important issue. They only found out because they threatened to hold up sales and at that point the VW execs admitted what they were doing. (Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they don't have to.) ... Then of course there's the question that begs to be asked: How could all of those executives, in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal environmentalists, have possibly decided it was a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted? There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 2015-09-22, Mayayana wrote:
There should be arrests. Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other countries following our lead: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/v...ry.asp?id=1259 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Mayayana wrote:
I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a discrepancy between testing and on-road results. But they've been haggling with VW all this time and somehow never thought to look at the software. Is the software accessible to EPA? Do they have developers who could understand it? No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load. How the test is faked is just a technical issue. How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the important issue. They only found out because they threatened to hold up sales and at that point the VW execs admitted what they were doing. (Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they don't have to.) Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of interesting games would be found. ... Then of course there's the question that begs to be asked: How could all of those executives, in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal environmentalists, have possibly decided it was a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted? THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting. There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal. Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any means possible). But, it's necessary. If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use arresting. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-22, Mayayana wrote: There should be arrests. Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other countries following our lead: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/v...ry.asp?id=1259 This article is not exactly accurate. In the fifties, DDT was amazing, it worked great. We put it between our sheets. You could spray it in the air and see insects dropping out right and left. But... by the seventies, mosquitoes (at least in Hawaii where I lived) had pretty much become immune to the stuff. Enormous, absolutely enormous amounts were necessary to kill insects. This is why there were environmental effects. My father had a gadget that would drop a mix of diesel and DDT into the muffler of the lawnmower and the smoke would kill mosquitoes, but by the seventies it wasn't killing them any more, even with a couple pounds of the stuff being burned. Give it another forty years or so and we might be able to start using DDT in a small way again. But it was the massive overuse and abuse of DDT that got us to the point where it was banned, not some crazy left-wind conspiracy. And yes, it WAS one of the big weapons in the fight against malaria, and it was a crime to lose that weapon. But it wasn't politicians that lost it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 09/22/2015 7:07 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mayayana wrote: I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a discrepancy between testing and on-road results. But they've been haggling with VW all this time and somehow never thought to look at the software. Is the software accessible to EPA? Do they have developers who could understand it? No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load. How the test is faked is just a technical issue. How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the important issue. They only found out because they threatened to hold up sales and at that point the VW execs admitted what they were doing. (Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they don't have to.) Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of interesting games would be found. ... Then of course there's the question that begs to be asked: How could all of those executives, in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal environmentalists, have possibly decided it was a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted? THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting. There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal. Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any means possible). But, it's necessary. If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use arresting. --scott Not just John Dee http://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-hig...tmare-farmers/ https://dmca.digitalrighttorepair.org/ John :-#(# -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 2015-09-22, Scott Dorsey wrote:
This article is not exactly accurate. ... The point is that government malfeasance, which can and does result in massive death, rarely if ever goes punished. I don't know how much additional pollution is being caused by VW diesels or if the effect is even measurable given their relatively low numbers. I do know that governments routinely lie, cheat, steal, and kill (sometimes en masse) all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of the State. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 10:07:40 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load. IDK for a fact what EPA would or would not have access to but I would doubt that the EPA would have the source could algorithms, etc. EPAs job is to set standards and enforce them, not get involved in how a particular company's computer and systems meets those standards. Do we really need another whole section of the EPA looking at source code? THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting. As M pointed out, the real damage is likely already done to their loyal hippie customer base segment. There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal. Arrests will do nothing. I would think it would not only serve the interests of justice, but it would also help deter some future execs from doing the same thing. If you don't put them in jail, then the stockholders take most of the hit. Without a criminal investigation, you wouldn't even find all the exec that were involved, knew about it, etc. What has to happen is that vehicle control code needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the government inspectors. Ridiculous. Like a vehicle owner needs the source code. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any means possible). But, it's necessary. Why? One instance in 40 years of emissions standards and all of a sudden companies are going to have to put out their proprietary software for all competitors to benefit from? What's next, Intel Boeing, Apple and Microsoft should put out all their stuff too? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/22/2015 10:08 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-22, Scott Dorsey wrote: This article is not exactly accurate. ... The point is that government malfeasance, which can and does result in massive death, rarely if ever goes punished. I don't know how much additional pollution is being caused by VW diesels or if the effect is even measurable given their relatively low numbers. I do know that governments routinely lie, cheat, steal, and kill (sometimes en masse) all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of the State. What a goof! |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests Apparently 11 million cars are affected! Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html "the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests." |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
Ewald Böhm wrote:
My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? How Did the System Work? http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...explainer.html |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/22/2015 2:19 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests Apparently 11 million cars are affected! Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/bu...r-scandal.html "the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests." Boggles the mind. "Oh ****, we got caught" |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Jack Myers wrote:
I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. Not all dynos work that way. I would expect such a dyno to drive the stability/ABS systems crazy, possibly SLAMMING on the brakes or other actions. (Most cars today are FRONT wheel drive, so the case would be the front wheels turning and the back stationary. For rear wheel drive trucks, of course, it is the opposite case. on these, it would be VERY hard to keep the truck on the rear wheel only dyno. If it started to drift to either side, the steering wheel could not get the tires centered back on the treadmill.) On such vehicles, it might be necessary to shut down the stability/ABS systems to even do these tests, which would clue in any test detection software. As for how the software could tell, this gives me an idea! The dynos have some considerable inertia, but it is likely much less that the inertia involved in accelerating the car to 60 MPH. So, the software might detect VERY easy acceleration to highway speed as a sign of a dyno test. This might also look like accelerating down a long hill, but if it goes on too long, it indicates minimal wind resistance. If you are cruising at 60 MPH with 4 HP effort, that would be a DEAD GIVEAWAY you are on a dyno! The emissions test dynos probably cannot absorb the output of a big car's engine to give it the normal highway load. That can be a LOT of power that you have to absorb for several minutes. Jon |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Jack Black wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote: My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf WOW, that's QUITE a document!! Thanks for the link! Jon |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh! |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:37:44 -0500, Mayayana
wrote: | My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? | There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal. The Justice Department reached an agreement with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100 people died. I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy are running the Justice Department. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
|
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
In rec.autos.tech sms wrote:
On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote: snip I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me. Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense. Oops! Right-o. What do you want to bet that the source code has this feature documented as a special low-torque mode to facititate getting out of snow banks? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
Ashton Crusher wrote:
I don't see the logic of this. The purpose of the code is to produce a specific level of emissions. As the EPA found, and I doubt it was hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling emissions? You can't, you can only tell if it "works" by measuring what comes out the tailpipe. Sure, a good code reader, if they had the time to look thru god knows how many lines of code, *might* spot a weird program execution loop but that it highly doubtful and certainly not a sure thing. And even if they did, it would not prove that the emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. It's true that the proof is in the pudding and actual emissions measurements tell the real story, but you cannot realistically measure emissions under every possible driving circumstance, so at some point the test will need to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole. However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE might be a giveaway too... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
| It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
The VW executives admitted to the EPA that they were scamming the tests. Try reading the news. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
On 9/19/2015 9:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote: On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. They test here in DE but plug into the computer to do it, not just sniff the tail pipe. Would guess our computer would be fooled too. Testing is also static without running load which I would assume EPA did. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution | is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two | shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100 | people died. | I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy | are running the Justice Department. | I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly surprising these things happen when the executives in charge have no liability. Even the companies often find the deals to be profitable. If a company cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined $20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be a good business plan. |
EPA full of shit, VW was not cheating!
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 4:49:41 PM UTC-4, NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh! Except that isn't what the EPA says VW did and it isn't what VW admitted to doing. If it was just the car reacting to the dyno, why would VW admit that they did it deliberately? |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
| Arrests will do nothing.
I don't see how you can look at it that way. If executives were held crimially liable for corporate law breaking then very little of it would happen. It's the difference between *maybe* risking their bonus and definitely risking years in jail. As long as the corporation is treated as an able, non-human party, and punished financially, that's an implicit statement that we as a society recognize no legal or ethical requirements for people doing business. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. I think this makes sense. The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever. In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch". Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance (i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the NOx emissions. Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings, VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions be damned. There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their wallet out on the kitchen table without checking. The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever). The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house guest stole money out of your wallet. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?
"Mayayana" wrote in message ... | Arrests will do nothing. I don't see how you can look at it that way. If executives were held crimially liable for corporate law breaking then very little of it would happen. It's the difference between *maybe* risking their bonus and definitely risking years in jail. As long as the corporation is treated as an able, non-human party, and punished financially, that's an implicit statement that we as a society recognize no legal or ethical requirements for people doing business. Murder is illegal but people still do it. |
EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:20:29 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
It's true that the proof is in the pudding I once looked that up, and it's the truth is in the /taste/ of the pudding! :) actual emissions measurements tell the real story, but you cannot realistically measure emissions under every possible driving circumstance You'll notice they drove the three test cars from San Diego to Seattle. Do you know why they did that? Because the trucking engine manufacturers were caught cheating years ago, where, after hundreds of miles of driving, the emissions would slowly creep up as the cheat codes slowly lowered the emissions constraints. The only way to tell if the VW cheat code did the same thing as Caterpillar and Volvo did in the past, was to drive for a thousand miles or so. It turned out that the cheat code was not the same as the ones previously used by the trucking engine manufacturers, but, as you noted, the only way to tell was to drive very long distances. so at some point the test will need to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole. This is true. The problem here isn't that VW cheated; it's that we TRUSTED them not to cheat, and then they still cheated. It's like trusting a house guest not to steal from you. Or like trusting the pool boy not to steal chemicals from you. Or trusting the electrician not to steal wires from you. Or trusting the dentist not to steal gold fillings from you. It's a trust issue (in addition to one big legal issue). However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE might be a giveaway too... In the official documents, even VW called the cheat setting of the switch the dynamometer setting! |
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