What use is WiFi on a TV screen?

A relative of mine called, who was told "something" by Costco, that their
Visio TVs have WiFi and therefore she wouldn't need the "box" whatever
that is.

I don't have cable, nor even a TV, but I suspect that "box" is something
that was added when they switched from Analog to Digital (or maybe it's a
descrambler).

They said they have to pay the cable company for a second box (the first
one is free), so, it's not a modem (because you'd only need one modem).

Anyway, my basic question, for you, is "what use is WiFi in a TV"?

Note that I can easily see that bluetooth is useful, since you can then
use that TV with a keyboard; but what good is WiFi in a TV screen at home?

"Ewald Böhm" wrote in message
...
What use is WiFi on a TV screen?

A relative of mine called, who was told "something" by Costco, that their
Visio TVs have WiFi and therefore she wouldn't need the "box" whatever
that is.

I don't have cable, nor even a TV, but I suspect that "box" is something
that was added when they switched from Analog to Digital (or maybe it's a
descrambler).

They said they have to pay the cable company for a second box (the first
one is free), so, it's not a modem (because you'd only need one modem).

Anyway, my basic question, for you, is "what use is WiFi in a TV"?

Note that I can easily see that bluetooth is useful, since you can then
use that TV with a keyboard; but what good is WiFi in a TV screen at home?

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 9:08:18 AM UTC-5, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?

Yes, the "Smart" TV is a computer...Samsung is Tizen OS (not sure about Vizio).

"Ewald Böhm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


The newer smart TVs have their own built in inerface . Maybe you have heard
of the devices like ROKU or the one from Amazon. Anyway it lets the TV
connect to the internet so if you have say Direct TV you can get movies and
other shows on demand bystreaming off the internet. I don't know what
system they use,but my TV lets me surf the web. It is awful slow to do with
the remote,but I think I could hook up a mouse and keyboard to it if I
wanted to.

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 10:08:18 AM UTC-4, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_TV

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:21:58 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Ewald Böhm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


The newer smart TVs have their own built in inerface . Maybe you have heard
of the devices like ROKU or the one from Amazon. Anyway it lets the TV
connect to the internet so if you have say Direct TV you can get movies and
other shows on demand bystreaming off the internet. I don't know what
system they use,but my TV lets me surf the web. It is awful slow to do with
the remote,but I think I could hook up a mouse and keyboard to it if I
wanted to.


My Samsung will take a USB mouse/keyboard but it is pretty clunky
searching the web. They already have most, if not all of the streaming
service interfaces built into the software. Some still require that
you need to go online with your PC to get the authorization code (HBO
for sure). There may be another way to get it but it is easy on a PC.

The local FIOS (Century link) TV offering also has a WiFi interface to
the TV box but I am not sure a smart TV can access it.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015, Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


And a tv set has become a computer. They needed a CPU to handle the data
conversion, so they might as well allow it to be used as a more general
purpose computer.

Both my DTV sets run Linux. A subset, but it's there.

My blu-ray player runs Linux too, as does my TomTom One GPS. It's free,
and yet provides a full OS for building on top of.

Michael

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:37:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015, Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


And a tv set has become a computer. They needed a CPU to handle the data
conversion, so they might as well allow it to be used as a more general
purpose computer.


It's not clear to me that you need a CPU to handle the conversion
of the digital bitstream to analog. It would seem that a dedicated
chip or chipset would be more far more suited to the application.

You do need a CPU to handle the human interface and supervise
the other chips. I'd think that's the CPU that's running the WEB/wifi
interface.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 08:45:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:37:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015, Ewald Böhm wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


And a tv set has become a computer. They needed a CPU to handle the data
conversion, so they might as well allow it to be used as a more general
purpose computer.


It's not clear to me that you need a CPU to handle the conversion
of the digital bitstream to analog. It would seem that a dedicated
chip or chipset would be more far more suited to the application.

You do need a CPU to handle the human interface and supervise
the other chips. I'd think that's the CPU that's running the WEB/wifi
interface.

Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.
Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.
That is why things as mundane as a washing machine or microwave timer
is a CPU.
There is a processor in my "dumb" Samsung.

On 9/3/2015 8:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:

And a tv set has become a computer. They needed a CPU to handle the data
conversion, so they might as well allow it to be used as a more general
purpose computer.

It's not clear to me that you need a CPU to handle the conversion
of the digital bitstream to analog. It would seem that a dedicated
chip or chipset would be more far more suited to the application.

Correct. It's actually more efficient to use dedicated hardware for
that function. But, ...

You do need a CPU to handle the human interface and supervise
the other chips. I'd think that's the CPU that's running the WEB/wifi
interface.

Exactly. And, more to the point, you need a computer to decide what
to *report* back tot he provider!

TV's (and thermostats, soon refrigerators, etc.) have now become "spies"
for their makers (or, whomever their makers want to sell that information).
What show is he/she watching?
How often (and *when*, exactly) do they turn AWAY from the broadcast?
Did they watch that commercial?
How many people are in the room?
*Which* people?
From this sort of information, with the help of Big Data, they can also
make educated guesses about your voting habits, medical conditions,
income/education level, etc.

And, the *computer* can now extract specific commercials from the
data stream (it's no longer a single "broadcast stream!" like in
days of old), buffer that and present it to you *when* it thinks
it appropriate. You can even be watching a commercial while your
neighbor is still watching the actual *program* (buffer the program
while PLAYING the commercial).

[For more than 30 years, the techology has existed and BEEN IN USE
to selectively *replace* commercials to certain broadcast areas.
Of course, this is a really coarse instrument -- EVERYONE sees the
replacement. Imagine if you can target individual households -- or
individual *viewers* -- with specific messages.... then *measure*
how effectively the message was received! I.e., did Joe User
actually *buy* the product that you pitched to him last night??]

Etc.

These sorts of things are hard to do with dedicated bits of hardware
(unless you make that hardware "programmable" -- hey, like a computer!)

On 9/3/2015 9:23 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 08:45:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?


And a tv set has become a computer. They needed a CPU to handle the data
conversion, so they might as well allow it to be used as a more general
purpose computer.

It's not clear to me that you need a CPU to handle the conversion
of the digital bitstream to analog. It would seem that a dedicated
chip or chipset would be more far more suited to the application.

You do need a CPU to handle the human interface and supervise
the other chips. I'd think that's the CPU that's running the WEB/wifi
interface.

Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...

Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.

grin When was the last time you GOT an update to your microwave
oven software? The GPS *software* (not MAPS) in your car? Any of
the dozens of ECU's in your vehicle? The controller in your furnace?
You washing machine/dryer/dishwasher?

Fixing is a misnomer. *Changing* is a better description. Manufacturers
make *changes* (going forward) which may (or may not) "fix" problems.
But, folks *with* those problems end up living with them. I.e., the
CPU doesn't buy the consumer anything!

That is why things as mundane as a washing machine or microwave timer
is a CPU.
There is a processor in my "dumb" Samsung.

There's a processor in your mouse. Another in our keyboard. Another in
your CD/DVD drive. Another in your network interface. etc.

(Welcome to *my* world! : )

"EwaldBöhm" wrote in message ...


Ewald?
LOL

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
[For more than 30 years, the techology has existed and BEEN IN USE
to selectively *replace* commercials to certain broadcast areas.
Of course, this is a really coarse instrument -- EVERYONE sees the
replacement. Imagine if you can target individual households -- or
individual *viewers* -- with specific messages.... then *measure*
how effectively the message was received! I.e., did Joe User
actually *buy* the product that you pitched to him last night??]


Not sure if the story is true, but a few years ago a department store sent a
girl some baby information and wanted her to set up a baby want list at the
store. Her father got wind of this and called the store and told them he
did not like them sending out all that as his daughter was not pregnet. The
store said they were sorry but based on the medication and vitimens she was
buying she was.

A few weeks later the man called up and said he was sorry to chew them out
as his daughter was pregnet.

Now looking at items on certain web sites will bring up ads for that item on
other web pages.

I understand Windows 10 is or can be set up to send back a lot of
information like that.

Hi Ralph,

On 9/3/2015 10:10 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
[For more than 30 years, the techology has existed and BEEN IN USE
to selectively *replace* commercials to certain broadcast areas.
Of course, this is a really coarse instrument -- EVERYONE sees the
replacement. Imagine if you can target individual households -- or
individual *viewers* -- with specific messages.... then *measure*
how effectively the message was received! I.e., did Joe User
actually *buy* the product that you pitched to him last night??]


Not sure if the story is true, but a few years ago a department store sent a
girl some baby information and wanted her to set up a baby want list at the
store. Her father got wind of this and called the store and told them he
did not like them sending out all that as his daughter was not pregnet. The
store said they were sorry but based on the medication and vitimens she was
buying she was.

A few weeks later the man called up and said he was sorry to chew them out
as his daughter was pregnet.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

Now looking at items on certain web sites will bring up ads for that item on
other web pages.

Yes. And, people don't understand that there is virtually nothing you
can do to remain anonymous in your web searching. Disable cookies?
Nope Super cookies? Nope Beacons? Nope.

Your actual *browser* can be "fingerprinted" to (practically) uniquely
identify you (it). What browser? What OS? What "options"? is Java
enabled? JScript? What range of IP addresses? What toolbar installed?
etc.

And, that assumes the browser isn't *deliberately* "tattling" on you!

I understand Windows 10 is or can be set up to send back a lot of
information like that.

W10 actually leaks a *lot* of information. MS has BELATEDLY realized that
selling software is not where the *money* is! Selling *ads* is the cash
cow! Knowing what people want, how they behave, what they search for, etc.
Sell that information to others. I.e., your *users* are the "commodity"
that you are "peddling". Implicit in all this is the Internet connection;
if your machine isn't connected to the outside world, it can't tattle on
how you are using it!

(you can't make a firewall smart enough to block this sort of information
from flowing through clandestine tunnels, etc. There's no way a machine
can know what's "bona fide" traffic and what is *undesireable* traffic)

Think about that when you want Philips to control your LED lights;
google to control your thermostat; etc.

"bob_villa" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 9:08:18 AM UTC-5, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 04:47:02 -0700, taxed and spent wrote:

so you can connect to the internet and watch Youtube, netflix, etc.

Maybe I don't understand. Actually, I don't understand.

To watch youtube, you need a browser, which is usually a program compiled
for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating system, and which
has a certain byte order and memory structure and a whole bunch of other
things associated with a "computer".

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?
If so, what operating system is the TV?

What browser does it use?
What architecture is that TV browser compiled for?

Yes, the "Smart" TV is a computer...Samsung is Tizen OS (not sure about
Vizio).


Hey Bob, did you and yer homies ever steal one of these?

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:32:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:


Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...


You can still buy 8080 chips but these people are using a standard PIC
of some sort.

Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.

grin When was the last time you GOT an update to your microwave
oven software? The GPS *software* (not MAPS) in your car? Any of
the dozens of ECU's in your vehicle? The controller in your furnace?
You washing machine/dryer/dishwasher?

It is still easier to fix the ones on the line.
There are flash changes for cars and you certainly see a lot of
microcode upgrades on a smart TV.


Fixing is a misnomer. *Changing* is a better description. Manufacturers
make *changes* (going forward) which may (or may not) "fix" problems.
But, folks *with* those problems end up living with them. I.e., the
CPU doesn't buy the consumer anything!

It makes the product cheaper to make. How much of that filters down to
the customer is debatable.

That is why things as mundane as a washing machine or microwave timer
is a CPU.
There is a processor in my "dumb" Samsung.

There's a processor in your mouse. Another in our keyboard. Another in
your CD/DVD drive. Another in your network interface. etc.

(Welcome to *my* world! : )


My original point, thanks

On 9/3/2015 12:13 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:32:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...

You can still buy 8080 chips but these people are using a standard PIC
of some sort.

How about SC/MP's? 2650's? 8x300's? A bazillion *specific* 8051
derivatives? etc.

In the 70's and 80's, the MPU market was all about "second sources"...
you wanted to have (at least one) backup vendors for the parts that
you'd design into a product. Nowadays, I don't think there are any
parts that are made by two different vendors that are "pin compatible".

Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.

grin When was the last time you GOT an update to your microwave
oven software? The GPS *software* (not MAPS) in your car? Any of
the dozens of ECU's in your vehicle? The controller in your furnace?
You washing machine/dryer/dishwasher?

It is still easier to fix the ones on the line.

Yes. But not much help for the folks who already purchased the
"previous bug-set".

There are flash changes for cars and you certainly see a lot of
microcode upgrades on a smart TV.

Only *smart* (network connected) TV's. And, only if you have it
connected to the 'net. At the same time, you are at the mercy
of the manufacturer to *not* leave you with a LESS DESIREABLE
product than the one you purchased. Or, *not* install additional
spyware, etc.

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?

It's one thing if the upgrades fix broken behaviors. But, more often than
not, they *change* behaviors -- often in BIG ways!

Fixing is a misnomer. *Changing* is a better description. Manufacturers
make *changes* (going forward) which may (or may not) "fix" problems.
But, folks *with* those problems end up living with them. I.e., the
CPU doesn't buy the consumer anything!

It makes the product cheaper to make. How much of that filters down to
the customer is debatable.

If you factor in the cost of added (user) complexity and dubious
functionality, I wonder if there *is* a net improvement!

In the 70's, we embraced MPU's as a means of replacing dedicated logic
to achieve comparable/improved performance at reduced cost. But, this
quickly got out of hand. "Feeping Creaturism" took over and folks
started cramming *too* much functionality into things that weren't
intended to have that level of complexity. E.g., our microwave has
buttons that we've NEVER PRESSED! In 15+ years!! Likewise, the
"probe" that allows the oven to monitor the interior temperature
of whatever it's cooking... never been used, I doubt I could
even tell you where it's *stored*! But, the probe, the connector,
the electronics and the software were all added to the cost of
the microwave.

New cars have support for XM built in. What if I never want an XM
subscription? How do I get "credit" for the extra, unused, potential
for bugs/failure/complexity increases that the "feature" has cost me?

What is the cost of providing those buttons (tangible hardware cost)
and the software behind them? I.e., we've bought features that
we'll never use -- and didn't really have a choice in the matter!

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:32:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:


Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...


You can still buy 8080 chips but these people are using a standard PIC
of some sort.


Who are "these people" and who says what they are using? Here
is a link to several HDMI chips that do the HDMI to analog display function
from just one chip manufacturer. Google and you'll find plenty more. Also,
not sure what a "PIC" is. If you used a general purpose CPU, it's only
part of the solution. You'd still need a separate D/A, for example.
And trying to have one CPU do many things instead of a dedicated chip
brings it's own problems, how many times have you had a video freeze on
a PC for example?

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:49:10 -0400, wrote:

The local FIOS (Century link) TV offering also has a WiFi interface to
the TV box but I am not sure a smart TV can access it.

Century Link _now_ offers an app to watch shows. From most any device,
in a recent ad. Sign in to your account on CL.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:25:55 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:13 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:32:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...

You can still buy 8080 chips but these people are using a standard PIC
of some sort.

How about SC/MP's? 2650's? 8x300's? A bazillion *specific* 8051
derivatives? etc.

In the 70's and 80's, the MPU market was all about "second sources"...
you wanted to have (at least one) backup vendors for the parts that
you'd design into a product. Nowadays, I don't think there are any
parts that are made by two different vendors that are "pin compatible".

Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.

grin When was the last time you GOT an update to your microwave
oven software? The GPS *software* (not MAPS) in your car? Any of
the dozens of ECU's in your vehicle? The controller in your furnace?
You washing machine/dryer/dishwasher?

It is still easier to fix the ones on the line.

Yes. But not much help for the folks who already purchased the
"previous bug-set".

There are flash changes for cars and you certainly see a lot of
microcode upgrades on a smart TV.

Only *smart* (network connected) TV's. And, only if you have it
connected to the 'net. At the same time, you are at the mercy
of the manufacturer to *not* leave you with a LESS DESIREABLE
product than the one you purchased. Or, *not* install additional
spyware, etc.

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?

It's one thing if the upgrades fix broken behaviors. But, more often than
not, they *change* behaviors -- often in BIG ways!

Fixing is a misnomer. *Changing* is a better description. Manufacturers
make *changes* (going forward) which may (or may not) "fix" problems.
But, folks *with* those problems end up living with them. I.e., the
CPU doesn't buy the consumer anything!

It makes the product cheaper to make. How much of that filters down to
the customer is debatable.

If you factor in the cost of added (user) complexity and dubious
functionality, I wonder if there *is* a net improvement!

In the 70's, we embraced MPU's as a means of replacing dedicated logic
to achieve comparable/improved performance at reduced cost. But, this
quickly got out of hand. "Feeping Creaturism" took over and folks
started cramming *too* much functionality into things that weren't
intended to have that level of complexity. E.g., our microwave has
buttons that we've NEVER PRESSED! In 15+ years!! Likewise, the
"probe" that allows the oven to monitor the interior temperature
of whatever it's cooking... never been used, I doubt I could
even tell you where it's *stored*! But, the probe, the connector,
the electronics and the software were all added to the cost of
the microwave.

New cars have support for XM built in. What if I never want an XM
subscription? How do I get "credit" for the extra, unused, potential
for bugs/failure/complexity increases that the "feature" has cost me?

What is the cost of providing those buttons (tangible hardware cost)
and the software behind them? I.e., we've bought features that
we'll never use -- and didn't really have a choice in the matter!


You are preaching to the choir here. I like hard wired circuits vs
processors but nobody listens to me.
My spa controller is 4xxx CMOS and my pool/solar controller is very
old school with a 24 hour timer motor, 3 cams with microswitches and
very simple switch and relay logic.to control 5 valve servos

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:15:32 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:49:10 -0400, wrote:

The local FIOS (Century link) TV offering also has a WiFi interface to
the TV box but I am not sure a smart TV can access it.

Century Link _now_ offers an app to watch shows. From most any device,
in a recent ad. Sign in to your account on CL.

I am not using FIOS, I still have POTS and Dish.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?


From what I understand, windows 10 is going to do that.

On 03 Sep 2015, Ewald Böhm wrote in
alt.home.repair:

To watch youtube, you need a browser,

No, you don't. You just need an interface that will display Youtube
content. It's included with a smart TV.

which is usually a program
compiled for a certain computer, which runs a certain operating
system, and which has a certain byte order and memory structure
and a whole bunch of other things associated with a "computer".

That's all included in your smart TV.

Is the TV acting as a "computer"?

Yes.

If so, what operating system is the TV?

I assume it's some customized version of Linux, but it doesn't matter
unless you're planning to hack it. Normally you're given a user
interface that will allow you access to the features built into the
smart TV, which will include apps to access Internet content providers
like Youtube, Hulu, Amazon, Netflix, and others. It may also include
some games and other miscellaneous stuff. It may even include a web
browser (mine does, but it works poorly.)

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 03 Sep 2015 17:33:08 -0400, Nil
wrote:


I assume it's some customized version of Linux, but it doesn't matter
unless you're planning to hack it. Normally you're given a user
interface that will allow you access to the features built into the
smart TV, which will include apps to access Internet content providers
like Youtube, Hulu, Amazon, Netflix, and others. It may also include
some games and other miscellaneous stuff. It may even include a web
browser (mine does, but it works poorly.)

So what do you have that works poorl?. I was particularly interested in
having a browser (more than having Netflix.) so I want to avoid what
you have, if any other browser works better, that is.

--

Stumpy Strumpet
the bimbus
for dogcatcher

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 17:32:18 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?


From what I understand, windows 10 is going to do that.


W/98 did the same4 thing if you had updates turned on, as has every
release since.
I remember an Internet Exploder update that nobody really wanted and
broke a whole lot of web applications.
There was a scramble to get the old version back.
That probably had more people turning updates off than anything else
MS ever did.

On 9/3/2015 1:42 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:25:55 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:13 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:32:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Everything is a CPU these days. It is cheaper to write software and
use an off the shelf CPU chip than to design a purpose built chip.

That depends on the functionality you intend in the product. Note
that CPUs go out of production just like "dedicated chips"...

You can still buy 8080 chips but these people are using a standard PIC
of some sort.

How about SC/MP's? 2650's? 8x300's? A bazillion *specific* 8051
derivatives? etc.

In the 70's and 80's, the MPU market was all about "second sources"...
you wanted to have (at least one) backup vendors for the parts that
you'd design into a product. Nowadays, I don't think there are any
parts that are made by two different vendors that are "pin compatible".

Fixing mistakes is a lot easier too.

grin When was the last time you GOT an update to your microwave
oven software? The GPS *software* (not MAPS) in your car? Any of
the dozens of ECU's in your vehicle? The controller in your furnace?
You washing machine/dryer/dishwasher?

It is still easier to fix the ones on the line.

Yes. But not much help for the folks who already purchased the
"previous bug-set".

There are flash changes for cars and you certainly see a lot of
microcode upgrades on a smart TV.

Only *smart* (network connected) TV's. And, only if you have it
connected to the 'net. At the same time, you are at the mercy
of the manufacturer to *not* leave you with a LESS DESIREABLE
product than the one you purchased. Or, *not* install additional
spyware, etc.

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?

It's one thing if the upgrades fix broken behaviors. But, more often than
not, they *change* behaviors -- often in BIG ways!

Fixing is a misnomer. *Changing* is a better description. Manufacturers
make *changes* (going forward) which may (or may not) "fix" problems.
But, folks *with* those problems end up living with them. I.e., the
CPU doesn't buy the consumer anything!

It makes the product cheaper to make. How much of that filters down to
the customer is debatable.

If you factor in the cost of added (user) complexity and dubious
functionality, I wonder if there *is* a net improvement!

In the 70's, we embraced MPU's as a means of replacing dedicated logic
to achieve comparable/improved performance at reduced cost. But, this
quickly got out of hand. "Feeping Creaturism" took over and folks
started cramming *too* much functionality into things that weren't
intended to have that level of complexity. E.g., our microwave has
buttons that we've NEVER PRESSED! In 15+ years!! Likewise, the
"probe" that allows the oven to monitor the interior temperature
of whatever it's cooking... never been used, I doubt I could
even tell you where it's *stored*! But, the probe, the connector,
the electronics and the software were all added to the cost of
the microwave.

New cars have support for XM built in. What if I never want an XM
subscription? How do I get "credit" for the extra, unused, potential
for bugs/failure/complexity increases that the "feature" has cost me?

What is the cost of providing those buttons (tangible hardware cost)
and the software behind them? I.e., we've bought features that
we'll never use -- and didn't really have a choice in the matter!

You are preaching to the choir here. I like hard wired circuits vs
processors but nobody listens to me.

It depends on the functionality that you want to provide. E.g., if
you wanted your pool/solar controller to assume a higher degree of
utilization on *holidays* than on WORKdays, you'd be hard-pressed to
do this with discrete logic.

E.g., we have "dual cooling", here -- ACbrrr and Evaporative/swamp Cooler.
You simply can't find a thermostat that knows how and when to use each!
Instead, the *human* (occupant) becomes an integral part of the
control loop. *Then*, you can use a simpler implementation (e.g.,
a simple thermostat).

OTOH, if you want to take the human *out* of the loop, then you need
a sh*tload more "smarts" in the control system. What's the current
humidity/dew point? How effective will the swamp cooler be *at*
that DP? How is that DP likely to *change* in the coming HOURS?
(if it's likely to RAIN later today, you surely don't want to push
even *more* moisture into the house with the cooler -- that the ACbrrr
will eventually have to remove ALONGSIDE the increased humidity)

*When* do you want the house to attain a particular comfort level?
If the occupants are away (vacation)... shrug. If they're at *work*,
then you probably want the house to be comfortable *when* they get
home -- not some time *after* they're home! So, start getting things
ready BEFORE they get home. But, how far in advance is appropriate?
Delay too long and they'll come home to an uncomfortable house. Start
too early and you've kept an *empty* house comfortable! :-/

My spa controller is 4xxx CMOS and my pool/solar controller is very
old school with a 24 hour timer motor, 3 cams with microswitches and
very simple switch and relay logic.to control 5 valve servos

My first (audio) cassette deck had TTL control logic. It's replacement
has several processors doing all sorts of different things! Yet, the
user interface hasn't appreciably changed (play, stop, pause, rewind, etc.)

On 03 Sep 2015, micky wrote in
alt.home.repair:

So what do you have that works poorl?. I was particularly
interested in having a browser (more than having Netflix.) so I
want to avoid what you have, if any other browser works better,
that is.

I don't know what it's called, it's just whatever was included with my
Samsung TV. It's deadly slow slow slow, and navigation with the TV
remote is painful. I tried hooking up a USB keyboard, but it didn't
work and I haven't bothered to try to troubleshoot it, since it's
nothing I'm interested in using. If I want to browse the web I'll just
use one of the several other computer devices in the house.

On 9/3/2015 2:32 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?

From what I understand, windows 10 is going to do that.

If you have updates enabled, most MS products (along with a variety of
other bits of softwa Java, Firefox, IE, Acrobat, etc.) will blissfully
update your software -- optionally getting your explicit consent before
installing those updates.

But, for the most part, they are *supposed* to be "fixes". It's not
like MS is updating your XP system to Vista, then 7even, then 8, etc.
and dragging you along in the process.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:36:31 -0400, Nil
wrote:

On 03 Sep 2015, micky wrote in
alt.home.repair:

So what do you have that works poorl?. I was particularly
interested in having a browser (more than having Netflix.) so I
want to avoid what you have, if any other browser works better,
that is.

I don't know what it's called, it's just whatever was included with my
Samsung TV. It's deadly slow slow slow, and navigation with the TV

Okay, I can remember Samsung. Thanks.

remote is painful. I tried hooking up a USB keyboard, but it didn't
work and I haven't bothered to try to troubleshoot it, since it's
nothing I'm interested in using. If I want to browse the web I'll just
use one of the several other computer devices in the house.


--

Stumpy Strumpet
the bimbus
for dogcatcher

On 9/3/2015 5:32 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Imagine coming to work and finding your computer has been "upgraded"
overnight, without your forewarning. What does that do to productivity?


From what I understand, windows 10 is going to do that.



You can schedule the restart, but I see no way to turn off updated
entirely on the home edition. I think you can on the pro version but
I've not seen it.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:35:06 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

It depends on the functionality that you want to provide. E.g., if
you wanted your pool/solar controller to assume a higher degree of
utilization on *holidays* than on WORKdays, you'd be hard-pressed to
do this with discrete logic.

This all came about from work I did with a few IBM engineers way back
in the Jimmy Carter solar age. Guys were designing very complicated
controllers and in the end it was decided that this was a very simple
thing. You really only needed a photo cell to get about 90% efficiency
and a couple of temperature sensors (in and out) really bumped that
up.

In the case of the pool and my solars I just use a timer and assume
that in the winter in Florida the sun will be shining all day. I have
a garden variety Honeywell thermostat to decide when it gets too cool
to keep running them in the evening.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:36:31 -0400, Nil
wrote:

On 03 Sep 2015, micky wrote in
alt.home.repair:

So what do you have that works poorl?. I was particularly
interested in having a browser (more than having Netflix.) so I
want to avoid what you have, if any other browser works better,
that is.

I don't know what it's called, it's just whatever was included with my
Samsung TV. It's deadly slow slow slow, and navigation with the TV
remote is painful. I tried hooking up a USB keyboard, but it didn't
work and I haven't bothered to try to troubleshoot it, since it's
nothing I'm interested in using. If I want to browse the web I'll just
use one of the several other computer devices in the house.

There is a screen that sets up the USB keyboard somewhere. I have one
hooked up and it worked pretty good for a while but after an "upgrade"
it stopped. I have not bothered to get it going again.

"trader_4" wrote in message news:6612702d-

stuff snipped

Also,
not sure what a "PIC" is. If you used a general purpose CPU, it's only
part of the solution.

Programmable Interrupt Controller.

--
Bobby G.

On 9/3/2015 5:58 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message news:6612702d-

stuff snipped

Also,
not sure what a "PIC" is. If you used a general purpose CPU, it's only
part of the solution.

Programmable Interrupt Controller.

No. It's a (icky!) microcontroller series manufactured by Microchip.
The original "PIC" was a (REALLY icky) manufactured by General
Instruments -- the original name for Microchip. They were originally
used in CATV tuner boxes -- as such, didn't really have to do much!
PIC == Programmable Interface Controller though I suspect that
acronym is lost over the years.

The devices have *slowly* improved in capability. Yet, are widely
used, today -- largely because they are cheap and Microchip is
very friendly to "hobbyists" making it easy for folks to play
with (and later, adopt) these components.

I think my furnace uses one. But. consider how simple the algorithm
there is:
- wait for thermostat to call for heat
- turn on exhaust blower
- turn on gas
- strike igniter
- check for ignition
- repeat a few times, MAXIMUM; if no joy, shutdown and vent the furnace
- keep gas running as long as call for heat and flame sensed

No fancy math, no user interface, etc.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/3/2015 5:58 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message news:6612702d-

stuff snipped

Also,
not sure what a "PIC" is. If you used a general purpose CPU, it's only
part of the solution.

Programmable Interrupt Controller.

No. It's a (icky!) microcontroller series manufactured by Microchip.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Progr...upt+Controller.

Oops. It's both but in this case the OP probably did mean the
microcontroller by Microchip.

The original "PIC" was a (REALLY icky) manufactured by General
Instruments -- the original name for Microchip. They were originally
used in CATV tuner boxes -- as such, didn't really have to do much!
PIC == Programmable Interface Controller though I suspect that
acronym is lost over the years.

The devices have *slowly* improved in capability. Yet, are widely
used, today -- largely because they are cheap and Microchip is
very friendly to "hobbyists" making it easy for folks to play
with (and later, adopt) these components.

I think my furnace uses one. But. consider how simple the algorithm
there is:
- wait for thermostat to call for heat
- turn on exhaust blower
- turn on gas
- strike igniter
- check for ignition
- repeat a few times, MAXIMUM; if no joy, shutdown and vent the furnace
- keep gas running as long as call for heat and flame sensed

No fancy math, no user interface, etc.

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 6:16:40 AM UTC-5, Ewald Böhm wrote:
What use is WiFi on a TV screen?

A relative of mine called, who was told "something" by Costco, that their
Visio TVs have WiFi and therefore she wouldn't need the "box" whatever
that is.

I don't have cable, nor even a TV, but I suspect that "box" is something
that was added when they switched from Analog to Digital (or maybe it's a
descrambler).

They said they have to pay the cable company for a second box (the first
one is free), so, it's not a modem (because you'd only need one modem).

Anyway, my basic question, for you, is "what use is WiFi in a TV"?

Note that I can easily see that bluetooth is useful, since you can then
use that TV with a keyboard; but what good is WiFi in a TV screen at home?

I recently got a smart TV then got a message from my provider (DIRECTV) that I need to connect to the internet. The second "box" is a wireless connection kit for $99. However, since I have been a customer beyond the contract period I can upgrade to a new receiver at no cost--if I sign on for another two year contract. Since I don't care about Netflix and the other features, I'm electing to skip the "smart" features for now.

On 9/3/2015 7:40 PM, wrote:
I recently got a smart TV then got a message from my provider (DIRECTV) that
I need to connect to the internet. The second "box" is a wireless connection
kit for $99. However, since I have been a customer beyond the contract
period I can upgrade to a new receiver at no cost--if I sign on for another
two year contract. Since I don't care about Netflix and the other features,
I'm electing to skip the "smart" features for now.

How did DIRECTV know that you had a new TV? Or, is this just a coincidence?

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 19:40:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 6:16:40 AM UTC-5, Ewald Böhm wrote:
What use is WiFi on a TV screen?

A relative of mine called, who was told "something" by Costco, that their
Visio TVs have WiFi and therefore she wouldn't need the "box" whatever
that is.

I don't have cable, nor even a TV, but I suspect that "box" is something
that was added when they switched from Analog to Digital (or maybe it's a
descrambler).

They said they have to pay the cable company for a second box (the first
one is free), so, it's not a modem (because you'd only need one modem).

Anyway, my basic question, for you, is "what use is WiFi in a TV"?

Note that I can easily see that bluetooth is useful, since you can then
use that TV with a keyboard; but what good is WiFi in a TV screen at home?

I recently got a smart TV then got a message from my provider (DIRECTV) that I need to connect to the internet. The second "box" is a wireless connection kit for $99. However, since I have been a customer beyond the contract period I can upgrade to a new receiver at no cost--if I sign on for another two year contract. Since I
don't care about Netflix and the other features, I'm electing to skip the "smart" features for now.

I have Dish and I did not get anything from them for my TV. I just use
the HDMI input for the cable box and the WiFi on the TV sees my
router. I was good to go.

On 9/3/2015 5:36 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:35:06 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

It depends on the functionality that you want to provide. E.g., if
you wanted your pool/solar controller to assume a higher degree of
utilization on *holidays* than on WORKdays, you'd be hard-pressed to
do this with discrete logic.

This all came about from work I did with a few IBM engineers way back
in the Jimmy Carter solar age. Guys were designing very complicated
controllers and in the end it was decided that this was a very simple
thing. You really only needed a photo cell to get about 90% efficiency
and a couple of temperature sensors (in and out) really bumped that
up.

In the case of the pool and my solars I just use a timer and assume
that in the winter in Florida the sun will be shining all day. I have
a garden variety Honeywell thermostat to decide when it gets too cool
to keep running them in the evening.

And how do you tell if its winter and if you're in florida? :