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#41
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Monday, June 29, 2015 at 9:14:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:08:01 -0400, "EXT" wrote: "HerHusband" wrote in message . .. Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Best way to do it might be a day laborer. You could rent a small walk behind ditch witch type gizom, depending on what's available in your area. HD might rent them. How practical that is depends on the cost and what you have to move it. The type of soil makes a difference too. We have lots of rocks in our ground, everything from a couple inches across up to several feet across. A ditch witch digger would be worthless here. We usually start out with a straight line from the source to the destination. Then we alter that route as needed to work around buried boulders. The end result is usually more serpentine than straight line.. The first trench we dug for our incoming power line was in the rockiest part of our property. By the time we dug around all the boulders to try and find a way through the various rocks, we had a crater about 8 feet across. Eventually we did find a route through the rocks though. Thankfully, most other trenches we have dug have been less problematic. I hired a backhoe once to dig a trench for us. He didn't fare much better than we did with shovels. Since then we've just grabbed a shovel and started digging. Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like electrical cables. If I absolutely can't find a way to reroute the trench around a rock I have resorted to drilling and chipping away at the rock to get the necessary clearance. Thankfully, I've only had to do that once or twice in the last 25 years. For underground work where you have to weave around rocks, use polyethylene water pipe to pull the wires through, it will bend around obstructions and keep the water out. Use shark bite type exterior fittings to connect and join the pipe to avoid reducing the internal diameter that push-in fittings will do. You won't have to dig so deep either. If you are not getting this inspected you just have to dig it deep enough to avoid being hit by the lawn mower but it isn't "legal" (nor is the water pipe) The last time I ran an underground conduit, it was Schedule 80 PVC electrical conduit. It was for a friend who had a garage apartment behind his home and we buried 2" Schedule 80 one foot deep and glued elbows plus LB's on both ends. We ran cat 5, 75 ohm coax, alarm and telephone wires in the conduit. I was across a driveway area in his yard and had vehicles rolling over and parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked. Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle PVC Monster |
#42
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: nd parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked. Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^ How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? -- Maggie |
#43
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
A steel wire called an electricians snake is used to pull wires through pipes.
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#44
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On 28 Jun 2015 16:47:03 GMT, notbob wrote:
On 2015-06-28, HerHusband wrote: Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like electrical cables. Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe. Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round and there goes my landline. Wow, if water kills your phone line, it must be really hard on DSL on the same line. I have about 20 feet of my phone line, mostly 4-conductor round while wire, open to the rain, and maybe that's what's been causing internet problems. D'ya think? I hadda run a above ground line, instead. Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and fix it when it does. BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. nb |
#45
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Monday, June 29, 2015 at 10:47:41 PM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: nd parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked. Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^ How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? -- Maggie The easiest way I've developed is to tie a piece if soft open cell foam to a poly pull string and blast it through the conduit with compressed air or CO2. A shop vac can be used to pull the foam and string through the conduit. CO2 is good to use in the field when there is no power or source of compressed air. When I worked on a construction project running high voltage cables in 4" conduit, me and the crew tied a rag to a pull rope and used the air compressor, made to run jackhammers, to blow the rag and rope through the conduit. My brother was on the other end and said the rag and pull rope shot 10 feet into the air as it exited the conduit elbow. There is also steel or fiberglass fish tapes that are threaded through a conduit and the wires can tied to it and pulled through. Whenever I pulled wire through a conduit, I always left a pull string in the conduit with the wire. This makes for easy additions of wire or cable. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Wire Monster |
#46
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:47:24 -0500, Muggles wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: nd parked on top of it. The conduit has never leaked. Oh yea, it was a 35 foot run. ^_^ How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the cable through it without trouble. You blow a pull string through first |
#47
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:22:07 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? The easiest way I've developed is to tie a piece if soft open cell foam to a poly pull string and blast it through the conduit with compressed air or CO2. A shop vac can be used to pull the foam and string through the conduit. CO2 is good to use in the field when there is no power or source of compressed air. When I worked on a construction project running high voltage cables in 4" conduit, me and the crew tied a rag to a pull rope and used the air compressor, made to run jackhammers, to blow the rag and rope through the conduit. My brother was on the other end and said the rag and pull rope shot 10 feet into the air as it exited the conduit elbow. Wow... That had to be cool to watch! There is also steel or fiberglass fish tapes that are threaded through a conduit and the wires can tied to it and pulled through. Whenever I pulled wire through a conduit, I always left a pull string in the conduit with the wire. This makes for easy additions of wire or cable. ^_^ So, you put 2 pull strings through the conduit, use one to pull the wire you need initially, and save the 2nd pull string for later in case you need it? I guess it's not common for those pull strings to get stuck when being blown through? -- Maggie |
#48
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
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#49
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 10:02:56 AM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:21:59 -0400, wrote: How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the cable through it without trouble. You blow a pull string through first Monster said the same thing. I just picture it getting stuck because of elbows in the conduit. I've never seen it done before. Was curious. -- Maggie It depends on how many elbows and how long the run. I think code is that you can't have more than 360 deg of turns between access points. How far, how many turns is going to depend on the wire gauge and number of conductors, etc. A lot of it comes down to common sense and experience. |
#50
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: Monster said the same thing. I just picture it getting stuck because of elbows in the conduit. I've never seen it done before. Was curious. It depends on how many elbows and how long the run. I think code A lot of it comes down to common sense and experience. Thanks for the info. Learned something new! -- Maggie |
#51
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
In ,
Texas Kingsnake typed: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? Seriously? You are joking, right? If you are serious, my vote is don't do it and stop trying to work anything out even deal with that guy. And, save yourself the trouble of even thinking about suing him to get your money back. He has no money. You will never see that money again even if you win a lawsuit. |
#52
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:46:02 -0400, "TomR" wrote:
Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? Seriously? You are joking, right? If you are serious, my vote is don't do it and stop trying to work anything out even deal with that guy. And, save yourself the trouble of even thinking about suing him to get your money back. He has no money. You will never see that money again even if you win a lawsuit. ....but the guy could bring his wife and child to the job site. They could all have a joyful fellowship. |
#53
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:43:53 -0500, Muggles wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 08:21:59 -0400, wrote: How do you get the wire in the long conduit without it getting stuck somewhere in the middle? In a 2 inch conduit????? They could run 4 times the cable through it without trouble. You blow a pull string through first Monster said the same thing. I just picture it getting stuck because of elbows in the conduit. I've never seen it done before. Was curious. You want to try pulling 4 #1 or even 00 cables 100 feet through a conduit. My dad took the clutch out of his '68 GMC doing one of those!!!! |
#54
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 10:44:30 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In , Texas Kingsnake typed: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? Seriously? You are joking, right? If you are serious, my vote is don't do it and stop trying to work anything out even deal with that guy. And, save yourself the trouble of even thinking about suing him to get your money back. He has no money. You will never see that money again even if you win a lawsuit. That's a good point. Winning would probably be easy. Collecting is a whole different story. |
#55
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
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#56
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us...
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see him tossing trash in my yard). I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let a licensed electrician do the hook-ups. TKS You can't put the electric and CCTV wires in the same conduit. -- Tekkie *Please post a follow-up* |
#57
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires Always room for...
Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us...
wrote in message ... On 28 Jun 2015 16:47:03 GMT, notbob wrote: On 2015-06-28, HerHusband wrote: Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like electrical cables. Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe. Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead. Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and fix it when it does. BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. nb You just used the wrong wire. Anything underground is a wet location, the pipe WILL fill up with water. If you used the "flooded" phone wire, you would have been fine. Is that the stuff where the insulation is actually some gel goo that keeps the water out? TKS Yup, like clear jelly... -- Tekkie *Please post a follow-up* |
#58
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 3:30:42 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote:
Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us... "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see him tossing trash in my yard). I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let a licensed electrician do the hook-ups. TKS You can't put the electric and CCTV wires in the same conduit. -- I've put shielded cable audio/video in the same conduit with power conductors quite a few times without a problem. I wouldn't do it with high voltage conductors but 240 volts and lower has never caused a problem except with electrical inspectors. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Cable Monster |
#59
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 3:30:42 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote: Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us... "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see him tossing trash in my yard). I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let a licensed electrician do the hook-ups. TKS You can't put the electric and CCTV wires in the same conduit. -- I've put shielded cable audio/video in the same conduit with power conductors quite a few times without a problem. I wouldn't do it with high voltage conductors but 240 volts and lower has never caused a problem except with electrical inspectors. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Cable Monster Not a problem, but still NOT LEGAL and not to be recommended. |
#60
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 2:59:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2015 20:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 3:30:42 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote: Texas Kingsnake posted for all of us... "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:08:20 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 10:45:54 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote: Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" in open areas, it can be less if it goes under concrete, etc.. Let me correct that. I just looked at the code to make sure and above is true for direct burial cable. If you use pvc conduit, it's 18". And there is an exception for branch circuits of 20A or less that are GFCI protected, in which case it's 12" regardless if it's direct burial or conduit. Thanks for the update. Depth will make a serious difference in how hard it will be to dig the trench. I am thinking I will get the guy who butchered my bricks to dig the ditch for free instead of my suing him. How hard could THAT be not to eff up? FWIW, I am using underground rated UF-14/2 cable that will be connected to a GFCI to run some new outdoor lights. A juvenile delinquent has moved in next door and I want to put up some motion detector lights and maybe some sort of camera to catch him at work (I looked out the window one day to see him tossing trash in my yard). I was considering doing the work myself but I have no experience with outside wiring or how to waterproof it so I may just dig the ditches and let a licensed electrician do the hook-ups. TKS You can't put the electric and CCTV wires in the same conduit. -- I've put shielded cable audio/video in the same conduit with power conductors quite a few times without a problem. I wouldn't do it with high voltage conductors but 240 volts and lower has never caused a problem except with electrical inspectors. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Cable Monster Not a problem, but still NOT LEGAL and not to be recommended. On a construction or remodel job me or whomever had the electrical contract would run separate conduits for power and low voltage wiring. I'd spec 3/4 EMT for phone and network drops. The phone company wants a minimum 3/4" conduit and sometimes larger for a service entrance. Heck, before I became too ill to work anymore, the computer networks I installed were handling both data and VoIP phone service. One Cat6 Ethernet cable per desk was all that was needed for phone and computer. Of course I would often split one ethernet cable to get two network feeds or pull out an unused pair for an analog or single pair multi line phone system like a Nortel. Dammit I miss work, the more complicated the job, the more fun I had. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Cable Monster |
#61
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 10:44:02 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2015 04:56:29 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: On a construction or remodel job me or whomever had the electrical contract would run separate conduits for power and low voltage wiring. I'd spec 3/4 EMT for phone and network drops. The phone company wants a minimum 3/4" conduit and sometimes larger for a service entrance. Heck, before I became too ill to work anymore, the computer networks I installed were handling both data and VoIP phone service. One Cat6 Ethernet cable per desk was all that was needed for phone and computer. Of course I would often split one ethernet cable to get two network feeds or pull out an unused pair for an analog or single pair multi line phone system like a Nortel. Dammit I miss work, the more complicated the job, the more fun I had. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Cable Monster BICSI doesn't think much of running analog phones on ethernet cables or splitting it out to two 10/100s. The gigabit internet stopped all of that anyway because they use all 4 pair. The NEC goes both ways on power and low voltage sharing cabinets and raceways. Generally it is prohibited except when both are part of the same system. Cable jackets ARE "separation". It is the termination that is the problem. Then you can have the question, is this a raceway (from box to box) or a duct. (open at both ends) It is specifically allowed if both cables are MC (or even just the LV cable) The NEC is fairly inconsistent around low voltage wiring because the various CMPs don't seem to compare notes. I haven't really chewed on the 2011 and 2014 enough to see if they fixed the in congruencies. They are buried in the minutiae Hell, we did whatever would make the inspectors happy. The network cable splitting was not done on new construction but when there was a service call or addition made long after the facility was built. It's been more expedient to pull out a pair on an existing cable rather than disrupt operations just to pull in one phone wire. Customers are interested in two things, will it work and what's the cost. Of course there's that third consideration, how much trouble will it be to do the job. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Practical Monster |
#62
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 9:45:54 AM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Any ideas? How deep do 110 volt wires need to be buried? 24" unless it is GFCI protected, then you can go 12". If you put it in a conduit you can go 18". http://www.xwalk.com/images/Table_30...over_Reqts.pdf http://www.iwireelectricservice.com/ |
#63
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Best way to dig a 40' long trench to bury wires
On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 2:26:33 PM UTC-7, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 12:47:08 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote: On 2015-06-28, HerHusband wrote: Of course, rigid drain pipes or conduit aren't always flexible like electrical cables. Nor entirely practical. My old phone line goes through a PVC pipe. Problem is, water gets into the pipe and when Winter time comes 'round and there goes my landline. I hadda run a above ground line, instead. Sometimes, still gets wet and drops out, but at least I can access it and fix it when it does. BTW, one the few times WD40 is actaully helpful. nb Sounds like the problem there is not using wires rated for wet locations. All PVC underground winds up with some moisture and water in it. I agree but I wonder where the moisture comes from? Condensation? Leaks at the entry/exit points from the ground? Well glued PVC *should* be waterproof, should it not? From what I've read about UF wire, direct burial should be fine. I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the juvie living next door that's caused this need for better perimeter lighting. wicked smile TKS " .... I just wish I could get away with direct burial of the juvie living next door..." Do you have rocky soil? ;-) |
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