I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.

Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.

I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.

I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?

You *really* should try to get help. Taking it
apart is asking for trouble. You might be able to
make it a little easier by tacking wood strips on
one side that line up with plumb, so that you can
then just lift the door assembly, push it against
the strips, and nail it. (By wood strips I mean
something tacked on where the finished inside
casings will go, so that the door assembly can be
raised into position and pushed against the strips,
without falling through onto the floor.)


Don't use Kilz for priming outside. Don't use latex
for priming. (I was at a job awhile ago where cheap,
pre-primed moldings were left out in the rain. They
were the factory-primed, finger-jointed type. Not only
were the joints coming apart, but the primer came off
in full sheets! Water-base paint doesn't soak in and
can't resist moisture.

Exterior oil paint is hard to get these days. Exterior
acrylic/latex simply can't resist moisture. But at least
you can get good oil primer. Use a linseed oil primer
like Benjamin Moore's Moorwhite. It will take overnight
to dry, but it soaks in. Fast-dry oil primers are not
much better than water-base primers. They usually
don't soak in. (There's probably a better brand than
Benjamin Moore, but I don't know what it might be.
Even contractors these days are wanting to use quick-
dry primers and latex paint, so there's a reduced
market for good paint.)

You also need to figure out why the old door rotted.
That shouldn't happen.


wrote in message
...
I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about
taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily
installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and
"plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually
harder to install this way.

I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real
good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and
frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.

Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight
is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to
install but not 100% sure.

I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a
quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the
brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.

I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?

On Monday, October 20, 2014 7:32:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.



I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.



Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.



I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.



I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?

Is it okay to just take the doors off to paint? I used a good quality oil based paint last time and every one of the jams and molding peeled. These were also the finger jointed pre primed material. It help good on the metal door though.

Are you saying an oil based primer is different than oil based paint? Should I use an oil based primer with latex on top?

I did find the reason for rot. The contractor that built the house did not install flashing on the door nor did he install flashing where the deck attached to the house. I have been working as I have time for the last few months replacing the rim joist, osb sheathing and the sub floor underneath the door. I got all that back in. Trying to figure out now the best way to thoughly paint the new French door and install it.

Is it okay to just take the doors off to paint?

Yes. I wouldn't. It's just easier to get at them
when they're hanging. But it's up to you. You might
find it easier to get the ends if the doors are off.
But to hang it the whole unit should be together
and stable, so that it's all on one plane and the
jambs are the right distance apart.

I used a good quality oil based paint last time
and every one of the jams and molding peeled.
These were also the finger jointed pre primed
material.


You primed over pre-primed? That might help a
little, but basically the preprimed wood is junk. The
primer is junk and hides the low-quality, jointed
wood that the moldings are made of. And once a
little expansion/contraction gets going, along with
moisture, the joints start to separate and let water in.
For something like interior use in low-budget rental
property they might be OK, but in general there's
just no reason to use pre-primed. Carpenters buy it,
I think, mostly because the majority don't really know
how to paint, so they think pre-primed is a clever,
time-saving idea.

I've been using some PVC and vinyl lately in places
where water is a problem, but I'm ambivalent: It looks
cheap if it's not painted, yet I don't know how well
paint will stick in the long run. But I'm using vinyl
1/4" x 1 1/2" right now for the horizontal strips on
a deck railing that rotted out. (The strips that hold
the ballusters in place, which then get nailed to the
top and bottom rails.) It's in a damp, shady
spot and all of the lower strips rotted because the
builder used mahogany lower rails and didn't paint
them, so water got in under the painted 1/4" strips.
I'm now using vinyl and painting the whole thing. I
hope the vinyl won't peel, but even if it does peel
a bit, it will last much better than the wood.


Are you saying an oil based primer is different than
oil based paint? Should I use an oil based primer with
latex on top?


Primer is different from finish paint. It's meant to
soak in and be porous enough to bond with the top
coat. But what I meant was that oil finish paint has
become hard to find due to EPA regulations. Most
companies have a version sold in quarts, but I don't
know how good they are. I have an old gallon of
Benj. Moore house paint that I use at home for things
like window sills. It's thick, flows well and dries with
a tough film. The newer paints tend to be thinner
and act more like solid stains: less of a tough film.
For instance, BM sells something called DTM -
direct to metal. It's an exterior oil paint that conforms
to EPA. My understanding is that they have to say it's
for metal. It works fine on wood. It seems OK, but it
hasn't been around long enough to know how it will last.
Sherwin Williams has a similar product. They come in
quarts. I use them for some trim because water-base
simply won't hold up. But I don't really have any way to
know how good those new formulations are.

There are also very expensive lines from Europe, and
now some American ones. BM came out with something
that's $50/quart. Maybe it's great, but $50/quart is too
high to justify even trying it out.

I've been generally switching to Sherwin Williams because
BM has downgraded their products. I actually prefer Pratt
and Lambert, but lately I can't get it where I live. The
companies are taking different approaches. BM has
reformulated many products to conform with tougher state
fume regulations, while P&L apparently just decided to pull
out of markets where they can't still sell their high quality
products. (Example: BM interior Satin Impervo oil has been
badly downgraded. P&L interior Red Seal oil is a superior
product, comparable to the original Satin Impervo, but
it's no longer sold in states with the most stringent fume
regulations.)

It's very furstrating. The products and their availablility
keep changing, and while oil paint is being phased out,
water base paints just can't replace them in terms of
either durability or smoothness of finish.

I recently found a couple of gallons of Cabot's
oil deck stain and solid oil stain for a job I'm doing, but
they were leftovers. Where I live, at least, Cabot's oil stains
are being phased out. At this point I don't know of any
soild color oil deck stain. Yet water-base deck stains are
simply junk. They rub right off the deck boards within a
year! I also don't know what I'll use next time I build a
decorative fence. I have used solid oil stain in the past.
The best idea I have now is Moorwhite oil primer with
acrylic stain.

So using oil finish paint outside these days is somewhat
experimental. There's no real oil base house paint anymore.
But at least one can still get oil base primer. And yes,
you can coat that with acrylic/latex paint. But you also
have to watch out for cheap oil-base primer. Again,
contractors often cut corners for convenience, preferring
the quick-dry primers. But if it's quick-dry it's not soaking
in. That kind of thing is not suited for outside.

On Monday, October 20, 2014 7:32:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.



I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.



Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.



I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.



I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?

By the way. The door already has the outside brick molding. You said something about using a nailer to keep the door from falling inside. Wouldn't the molding keep it from falling in that direction? Are you supposed to remove this molding before you install the door? (I never have on regular doors.)

Thanks again.

wrote:
I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.

Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.

I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.

I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?

Hi,
I never saw French doors installed with doors removed.
I don't think you can install it alone(asking for trouble)
I had my houses built 5 times watching them go up every step.
Cabin was built myself as a general contractor hiring
qualified people. Small cabin has two sets of French doors
which was installed without any issues. You definitely need
helping hands for this one. Problem is the size and weight.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 05:32:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I think you are asking for trouble by removing the doors first. You
risk a chance of damaging the frame or possibly breaking the tempered
glass in the doors. Get some help to lift the door in the rough
opening once it is cleaned-up, checked for plumb, and level.

Drill a couple of "Shank Hole or Clearance Holes" * in the side jamb
(try to conceal them behind the weather strip or door stop at the
center - you can drill them before you set the door). When the door is
set in place run a couple of 3.5" screws into holes to hold the door
in place. You can adjust the screws to shim the jamb then without
much help. I prefer screws instead of finish nails (just me). YMMV

Leave the brick mold on the jamb. Before you set the door put a good
bead of urethane caulk around the outside molding area. And on the
floor to seal the threshold.

Of course, you did get "instructions" with the door, right?!

*
....Shank Hole or Clearance Hole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLOIxtdRyM&index=13&list=PL1szv0FP8dUthzy Av88t3sQzhxFLWMXRF

https://tinyurl.com/qcfn3vc

"Mayayana" wrote in message


I've been using some PVC and vinyl lately in places
where water is a problem, but I'm ambivalent: It looks
cheap if it's not painted, yet I don't know how well
paint will stick in the long run.

FWIW...

I have five sets of steel French doors. All have phony muntins made, I
presume, of vinyl, maybe PVC, could be polyurethane. I painted all 17
years ago with Glidden's Porch & Floor poly enamel. All are still good.
I'm glad because they are a bear to paint. None of them are really
exposed, however, they are under roof leading to lanais and a screen
porch.


It's very furstrating. The products and their availablility
keep changing, and while oil paint is being phased out,
water base paints just can't replace them in terms of
either durability or smoothness of finish.

But you can clean up with soap & water!

I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to
help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars
belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that
cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

wrote in message


Trying to figure out now the
best way to thoughly paint the new French door and install it.

What I would do...

1. Paint the backside of the jambs.

2. Hang the doors

3. Take off the doors by removing all hinge screws. Take off any other
hardware, gaskets/weatherstripping too.

4. Paint the doors. This could take a while because ideally, they should
be painted flat, easier to get a decent paint job, but they have to be
really dry before you can flip them to paint the other side so while you
are waiting, paint the outside of the jambs and stops

5. Reinstall weatherstripping, hardware and rehang the doors.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

wrote in message

I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought
about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And
temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then
installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door
might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I can't see that would cause any problem as long as you don't try to true
up/shim the jambs without the doors.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"dadiOH" writes:

I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to
help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars
belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that
cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.


Two different things, of course. VOC's make car exhaust worse.

http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/en...vocs_smog.html

Anyone who lived in the LA basin from 1960 to 1990 would understand.

dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message

I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought
about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And
temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then
installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door
might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I can't see that would cause any problem as long as you don't try to
true up/shim the jambs without the doors.

Hi,
That is 2 step work and a chance to get into unseen problem. Door
frame is not really rigid without doors. After frame is installed when
putting back the door, if they don't fit right, then what?
i'd hire 2 person helping hands at least a few hours to make things easy.

| I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to
| help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars
| belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that
| cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.

I thought the basic idea was good, but the
execution doesn't make much sense. They've
removed most good paints, so people will
paint more often. If they had, instead, mandated
only titanium dioxide in oil paint and banned chalk
it might have been possible to get good paints
that, while fumey, didn't need recoating nearly
so often.

By the way. The door already has the outside brick molding.

Good. Yes, you can/should leave that on and that
will make it a lot easier to hold it in place by yourself.
You won't need the pieces I talked about. I just
assumed it was a frame with no trim.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:36:30 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"Mayayana" wrote in message


I've been using some PVC and vinyl lately in places
where water is a problem, but I'm ambivalent: It looks
cheap if it's not painted, yet I don't know how well
paint will stick in the long run.

FWIW...

I have five sets of steel French doors. All have phony muntins made, I
presume, of vinyl, maybe PVC, could be polyurethane. I painted all 17
years ago with Glidden's Porch & Floor poly enamel. All are still good.
I'm glad because they are a bear to paint. None of them are really
exposed, however, they are under roof leading to lanais and a screen
porch.


It's very furstrating. The products and their availablility
keep changing, and while oil paint is being phased out,
water base paints just can't replace them in terms of
either durability or smoothness of finish.

But you can clean up with soap & water!

I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to
help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars
belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that
cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.
Believe it or not, a pint of high voc alkyd paint puts more polutants
(other than CO2, which is "plant food") into the air than 20 gallons
of gasoline being burned in today's car engines.
A common 4HP 4 stroke lawn mower is "filthy" in comparison - yet no
worse than that pint of paint.

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:45:02 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote in message

I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought
about taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And
temporarily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then
installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door
might "rack" and be actually harder to install this way.

I can't see that would cause any problem as long as you don't try to true
up/shim the jambs without the doors.
Shimming the doors in the jam, installing the jam with the doors
installed, is the BEST way to ensure everything fits and works as
intended. Shim the door into postion, screw solidly in place, and seal
with spray foam.

If an outside door, the frames ahould be wrapped with typar extending
back under the siding, and the bottom "jamb" area should be covered
with something like "blue-seal" to waterproof it. ASSUME it is going
to leak - build accordingly - then do all you can to prevent leaks.

You have to have the doors in the frame when you shim/set the frame because just using a level is not going to give you the final fine control you need to get those particular doors set in that particular frame centerd so that they work correctly. It's hard enough to do with the doors in the frame, find some teenager in the neighborhood and give them $5 or $10 for 10 minutes of their time to help you set the door in place.