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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:32:01 -0700, John Robertson
wrote:

Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.


I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).


Same method I used, except the heater had 40 gallons of water in it.
It didn't move, but eventually the anode rod cap did.


When I mentioned the problem to a plumber, he indicated that it was a
common problem, and that an electric or pneumatic impact wrench works
much better. I didn't have a reason to try it, so I don't know if
that's really a good idea. Also, when I installed the 2nd anode rod,
I smeared it with some edible grease. Insulating it with Teflon tape
doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
wrench.


Seriously? You think the teflon tape will insulate it? Pipe threads
are designed for an interference fit, the pipe threads will cut
through the tape with ease. The tape is just to fill the gap between
the male & female threads.


I found some instructions on how to remove the rod, which recommends
WD-40 and an impact wrench. Getting the WD-40 out of the water is
going to be interesting since it's not water soluble.
http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html

In my derangement, I didn't have enough clearance above the water
heater to insert or remove the rod. They make anodes that are on a
chain to make it possible to replace them without proper clearance,
but I didn't buy one of those. So, I tipped over the water heater,
inserted the 2nd rod, tipped it back up, and continued the
installation. When it's time to replace either rod, I'll need to
drain the heater, disconnect everything, tip it over again, and
extract the rods. Not fun, bad planning, etc.


Just bend the rods when you remove them, they're either magnesium or
aluminum alloy on a wire. Replace with the bendable variety.


I'm not sure of the exact anode replacement interval. The previous
water heater lasted about 15 years before the lime accumulation killed
the lower heater element. I assume the lifetime is affected by
whatever is in the water. Inspecting the anode rod would be helpful,
but if it's stuck or difficult to remove, that might be difficult.


Inspect the rods every year or two, when you start to see mostly wire
it's time for replacement.


Good luck and how did we get from LED lighting to water heaters?

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On 10/15/2014 4:07 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).


Same method I used, except the heater had 40 gallons of water in it.
It didn't move, but eventually the anode rod cap did.

Good luck and how did we get from LED lighting to water heaters?


The ones I got off ebay (shopping for price) were
dim. But, the ones they used over the church
are really great.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:07:02 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann wrote:


Insulating it with Teflon tape
doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
wrench.


Seriously? You think the teflon tape will insulate it?


No. It would reduce the contact area. However, the current through
the anode is so low, it probably would make no difference.

Pipe threads
are designed for an interference fit, the pipe threads will cut
through the tape with ease. The tape is just to fill the gap between
the male & female threads.


With Teflon tape filling the gaps, I can re-insert the rod using less
torque than I would with a metal to metal fit, thus making it easier
to remove at a later date, and hopefully maintaining a leak proof
seal. At least that's my theory, which remains untested.

Just bend the rods when you remove them, they're either magnesium or
aluminum alloy on a wire. Replace with the bendable variety.


This was a new rod that I was trying to insert, so bending was not an
option. I should have purchased the sausage style of rod.

Inspect the rods every year or two, when you start to see mostly wire
it's time for replacement.


On my water heater (GE/Rheem something), I have two separate holes for
the two rods. On some others, the 2nd rod is combined with the hot
water outlet, making inspection rather awkward:
http://waterheatertimer.org/images/Anode-top-of-heater-600.jpg
http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html
I'm tempted to add yet another hole and see if a borescope inspection
camera will.


--
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150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

micky writes:
Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?


http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...on-led-rollout

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On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 15:11:51 -0700, John Robertson
wrote:

On 10/13/2014, 2:31 PM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:58:56 +1100, Trevor Wilson
wrote:



**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).

I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.


You're right should have compared lumens earlier on.

The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2....VDrPJ 1fDuM0
says about the one I was interested in "Each head contains (3) 4780K
high performance LEDs. Lumen output of 1,222 "

That's total for both heads. 1719 Lumens for a 3-head version.

Then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. Between 1000 and 1500 lumen
times 2 bulbs = 2000 to 3000 lumen.

So I don't know whether to buy 1222 LED lumens for $117 or 1719 lumens
for $150.

Or stay with incandescent for maybe $35 and hope they don't burn out so
fast if I get a good brand that doesn't turn on with the wind. I
almost never go there at night so if they don't turn on in the wind,
they'll burn less than 5 hours a year 2000 hour lifespan will be 400
years. Ugh.


50W LED flood is around 4,000 Lumens...and you can get them for around
$80USD @ Home Depot.


I pretty much retract my first reply. I found over 2000 lumen, with
motion sensor for $89, at Lowes, not HD.

Do try to get ones that are UL (or CSA for Canada) approved for safety's
sake.


For sure. Thanks.

John :-#)#




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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

On 12.10.2014 21:17, micky wrote:
Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has
to be bright.

The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have
they ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's
probably blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really
comparisons.

The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave
reflector with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are
saying the 3 together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt
LEDs, and is 10 watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts
incandescent?? That's what the floodlights use now, 200 watts total
per fixture.


The manufacturer of the LED lamp has published some photometric data
(accessible via the link you posted). According to that data, the
luminary in question has a maximum output of 1165 lumens (lm).

That 1165 lm is not very much.

A normal (non-halogen) 200W incandescent lamp has a light output of 2500
lm (according to the datasheet for the Osram "Centra A CL 200"), and
that's a "mechanically rugged" type lamp with a thick filament that is
not even particularly efficient.

A 200W halogen incandescent lamp has a light output of 3500 lm (3520 lm
according to the datasheet for the Philips "Plusline Small 200W R7s 230V").

Depending on how efficient your previous lamp has been, you'll likely
need to either double or triple the LED lamp in order to match it.

Regards
Dimitrij
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On Thu, 16 Oct 2014 20:30:12 +0200, Dimitrij Klingbeil
wrote:

On 12.10.2014 21:17, micky wrote:
Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has
to be bright.

The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have
they ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's
probably blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really
comparisons.

The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave
reflector with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are
saying the 3 together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt
LEDs, and is 10 watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts
incandescent?? That's what the floodlights use now, 200 watts total
per fixture.


The manufacturer of the LED lamp has published some photometric data
(accessible via the link you posted). According to that data, the
luminary in question has a maximum output of 1165 lumens (lm).

That 1165 lm is not very much.

A normal (non-halogen) 200W incandescent lamp has a light output of 2500
lm (according to the datasheet for the Osram "Centra A CL 200"), and
that's a "mechanically rugged" type lamp with a thick filament that is
not even particularly efficient.

A 200W halogen incandescent lamp has a light output of 3500 lm (3520 lm
according to the datasheet for the Philips "Plusline Small 200W R7s 230V").


I had a halogen light there for a whlle, but the socket on one side
burned out, or got hot and crumbled. I didn't even think about
efficency when it was installed, or when I replaced it. Shame on me.

Depending on how efficient your previous lamp has been, you'll likely
need to either double or triple the LED lamp in order to match it.


I ended up getting an led fixture that rates itself twice as bright as
the url I gave in the OP. I'm not going to say what it is, because I've
learned from experience that one or more people will tell me it's no
good, and I don't want to hear that now, since I've already bought it
and may put ii in any minute now.

Regards
Dimitrij


Thanks for the informative reply. For the sake of electricity, I'm glad
I didn't get incandescent this time. Maybe no more lightbulb changing.

(I hope to go away for a few weeks next february and I didn't want to
wait until spring to fix the lights.)
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 19:38:16 +0300, Ismo Salonen
wrote:

On 10/13/2014 01:07 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
We consume around 1000KWh per month. Down from ~1300KWh.
I think our 4 person electric Sauna sucks lot of juice even running on
220V.


If the unit was 110 V, do you think the
cost would be different?

Hint: Watt is a unit of work. You pay for
watts.


.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Actyally you pay for energy, kWh ( kilowatthours) not for power ( as
watt is).


True. But otoh, the appliance is rated in watts. People have to keep
track of their own time, the time they keep the tub hot, which is
presumably the same no matter what the voltage.

ismo


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On Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:48:44 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


On my water heater (GE/Rheem something), I have two separate holes for

the two rods. On some others, the 2nd rod is combined with the hot

water outlet, making inspection rather awkward:

http://waterheatertimer.org/images/Anode-top-of-heater-600.jpg

http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html

I'm tempted to add yet another hole and see if a borescope inspection

camera will.


Could you pull the T/P valve and see that way?

Of course, you still have to partially drain the tank, but not much - they are usually most of the way up.

nate
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On 10/16/2014 8:09 PM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 19:38:16 +0300, Ismo Salonen
wrote:

On 10/13/2014 01:07 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/13/2014 2:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
We consume around 1000KWh per month. Down from ~1300KWh.
I think our 4 person electric Sauna sucks lot of juice even running on
220V.

If the unit was 110 V, do you think the
cost would be different?

Hint: Watt is a unit of work. You pay for
watts.


.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Actyally you pay for energy, kWh ( kilowatthours) not for power ( as
watt is).


True. But otoh, the appliance is rated in watts. People have to keep
track of their own time, the time they keep the tub hot, which is
presumably the same no matter what the voltage.


Do you think it would be different, running on
110 volts?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


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On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:28:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:59:20 +0100, Charlie+ wrote:

What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
Informative post tho! C+


Not copper. That would be far too expensive. The tank is made from
steel, which is either enamel or glass coated for protection. The
problem is that the glass or enamel can crack (or micro-crack)
allowing the water to contact the steel and eventually corrode a hole
in the tank.


Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.





The sacrificial anode corrodes instead of the steel
tank. It's exactly the same as the common zinc sacrificial anode used
to protect steel hulls on boats.

Note: I am not a plumber, expert on hot water tanks, or hydraulic
engineer. I just happen to have had some experience replacing my
water tank twice in 35 years and found it useful to first read the
available literature before making any more mistakes.


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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.


Mine is electric. See:
"What's inside a hot water heater?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFt9rCzsyY
The video showing the inside of the tank start at about 4:30. As far
as I can see, it's just a steel tank with some manner of plating on
the inside. That's roughly what I found when I sawed apart my
original water heater, except that there was much more rust and lime
accumulation. Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.

Here's collection of AO Smith residential gas water heater data
sheets:
http://www.ho****er.com/resources/product-literature/spec-sheets/residential-gas/
I checked a few and most offer variations on the glass lining such as:
"BLUE DIAMOND GLASS COATING
An A. O. Smith exclusive provides superior corrosion
resistance compared to the industry-standard glasslining"


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Jeff Liebermann writes:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.


Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?

One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
melting point.
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In sci.electronics.repair micky wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:28:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:59:20 +0100, Charlie+ wrote:

What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
Informative post tho! C+


Not copper. That would be far too expensive. The tank is made from
steel, which is either enamel or glass coated for protection. The
problem is that the glass or enamel can crack (or micro-crack)
allowing the water to contact the steel and eventually corrode a hole
in the tank.


Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)


I thought I remembered seeing a Sears plastic electric HWH many years
ago. Do they still make them, or did they last too long?


When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.


Think porcelin like a sink or bath tub. It's firmly bonded to the
metal.

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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:06:13 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
wrote:

Think porcelin like a sink or bath tub. It's firmly bonded to the
metal.


Well, let's do the math.
Coefficient of linear expansion for:
steel = 12*10^-6 m/m-K
alumina = 5.4*10^-6 m/m-K

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html
From 25C to 100C (near the burner) on a 2 meter high tank, the steel
will expand:
12*10^-6 m/m-K * 2m * (100-25) = 1.8 mm
and the ceramic:
5.4*10^-6 m/m-K * 2m * (100-25) = 0.8 mm
1mm difference doesn't sound like much, but if both materials are
rigid, it could easily delaminate. The alumina ceramic is very rigid,
but the steel can bend. If the tank were allowed to bulge slightly in
the middle, it would work, if the alumina can survive being under
constant tension without cracking.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:20:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)

When I brought it home I worried about dropping it, because I had heard
they were lined with glass, so I thought they would be fragile, but like
I say, it would have been impossible to break the glass.


Mine is electric. See:
"What's inside a hot water heater?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaFt9rCzsyY


No time tonight to watch this. Tomorrow.

The video showing the inside of the tank start at about 4:30. As far
as I can see, it's just a steel tank with some manner of plating on
the inside. That's roughly what I found when I sawed apart my


BTW, I learned that you can saw though the outermost rather thin steel
layer of a water heater (the part that you see) with a reciprocating
saw, even if the blade no longer has any teeth. They all wore away but
it still cut fairly well. Certainly it wasn't worth changing the
blade.

original water heater, except that there was much more rust and lime
accumulation. Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I


I woudn't call it soft. It bent, but it wasn't flimsy. Maybe the
stiffness was a little greater than a bicycle tire.

would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.


My water heaters are electric too.

Here's collection of AO Smith residential gas water heater data
sheets:
http://www.ho****er.com/resources/product-literature/spec-sheets/residential-gas/


Tomorrow I'll look to see if they have electric.

I checked a few and most offer variations on the glass lining such as:
"BLUE DIAMOND GLASS COATING
An A. O. Smith exclusive provides superior corrosion
resistance compared to the industry-standard glasslining"


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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Is this perhaps a gas water heater? When I took my electric water
heater apart, it had a steel shell but inside that was a flexible
plastic of some sort, milky clear/white, with maybe glass embedded in
the plastic. It was 1/4" thick or more and was never going to break,
because I pulled it away from the metal and bend it 60 degrees and there
was no cracking.

It was sold by Sears but seemed identical to the one that was first in
the house, by A.O.Smith. (I'm not positive it's labeled glass-lined
but people make it sound like all of the tanks are.)


I wanted to check if my water heater was advertised as glass-lines, so I
started looking on the web. Then it dawned on me that a better way
would be to look on the water heater, which probably still has labels on
it. (Yes, it has several.)

And the top label includes "Cobalt Blue Ultra-Coat (or Cote) Glass
Lining." but I'll bet you any money that this Kenmore water heater is
built just the same as the last one, with the 1/4" (or slightly less,
not more like I said.) layer of clear/milky vinyl?, something like
plastic milk cartons would be if they were thicker, probably with glass
mixed in, because otherwise t hey couldn't say "glass lining". Or
maybe it's largely crushed glass in some "plastic" medium.

I think Kenmore is AOSmith because the intake and output pipes are
exactly the same distance apart as the wh that came with the house (when
no other brand I looked at had that. I'm compulsive. I didn't want to
use flexible and I didn't want zig-zag piping. ) And the front panels
were the same (although maybe they all use the same thermostats and
heaters.) Basically everything looks the same as the original.
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Charlie+ wrote in
:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:13:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote as underneath :

snip
Incidentally, you might be amused at how water heaters are rated and
priced. A few years ago, the bottom of my 40 gallon electric water
heater filled with calcium carbonate causing the lower heating element
to blow out. It was rusted in place and not easily replaced. The
heater was old, so I decided a new heater was best. I went to the
local Home Depot store and noticed that heaters were rated and priced
by their warranty life as 6, 9, and 12 year heaters. Current prices
a
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-...ntial-Electric
/N-5yc1vZc1u1Z2bcu0t?NCNI-5 $248, $338, and $548 respectively. I
asked what was the difference and received a few bad guesses. The
weight of these heaters was exactly the same, so there was no
difference in tank design or construction. The 6 year heater used
lower power elements, but that shouldn't effect the cost.

I eventually determined that the primary difference was the anode
protection rod in each heater. The 6 year heater used a very small
anode rod. The 9 year used a much larger anode. The 12 year had dual
anodes. The problem was the rods cost about $25/each which is
reflected in the $100 to $200 price difference between the three
models. The 6 year heater had the port for the 2nd anode sealed shut,
so I bought the 9 year model, and added a 2nd anode for a cost of
about $25. Net savings from the 12 year model:
$548 - $338 - $25 = $185
I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
will not accumulate again.

snip

What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these
type of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this
type.. ! Informative post tho! C+


Over in the UK they tend to be copper or stainless and maintenance free
lifespans of 40+ years are not unusual. e.g. Albion brand stainless hot
water cylinders dont use any anodes and have a 25 year anti-corrosion
warrenty on the tank. The immersion heater element circuit should be RCD
protected, both for safety and so that any insulation failure will be
detected before significant electrolytic corrosion can occur.

Whoever first introduced vitreous enamel-lined mild steel hot water tanks
to the American market did you all a great disservice.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL


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In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:44:12 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann writes:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.


Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?


Yes. It requires a heat spreader between the cup and the flame. Apply
the flame directly and the hot spot will burn a hole in the styrofoam.

One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
melting point.


True. However, a gas water heater has to deal with stratification,
where the water is much hotter near the flame than near the tank
outlet. I couldn't determine how much of a temperature difference by
Googling. You're probably correct that it won't melt if it's decent
plastic, but I'm still suspicious. Unless secured to the steel tank,
it might soften, warp, bend, buckle, or otherwise provide an excuse
for water to get to the steel. From there, it's only the anode rod
that protects the steel tank from corrosion.


ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input. I suspect you suspicions about the
plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
correct.

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On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:13:17 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
wrote:

ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input.


No, no. You don't want any thermal conduction through the plastic
liner. The whole idea is to keep the heat inside the tank, not
radiate or conduct it to the outside. That's why there's a mess of
fiberglass insulation between the steel water tank and the outside
cosmetic steel cover. Some people add an additional water heater
insulating "jacket" on the outside of the heater. A thermal
insulating plastic layer between the water and the steel tank should
improve efficiency.

An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.

I suspect you suspicions about the
plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
correct.


That was just a guess. I'm not so sure any more. The plastic liner
and steel tank are both fairly flexible, so they can bend and bulge
without breaking anything. You'll never see it because it all happens
inside the tank. If they're glued together (bonded) properly, I don't
think they will come apart. I was wondering why the water tank didn't
have stiffening ribs, which would allow the use of thinner steel. I
guess(tm) stiffening might interfere with the necessary flexing of the
tank with temperature.

It should also be possible to dope the alumina ceramic coating with
something to help it match the coefficient of thermal expansion for
the steel. Even so, stratification, and the difference between
temperatures on both sides of the steel tank, will create enough of a
temperature gradient to possibly microcrack the ceramic.

Incidentally, it doesn't take much movement to wreck a ceramic
coating. I had a nice ceramic coated steel tea kettle that I usually
heat on the kitchen stove top to about 180C. One day, I stupidly put
it directly on top of my wood burner running at about 300C. I
compounded the error by boiling off all the water. My first
indication of a problem was the sound of something like popcorn from
inside the kettle. That was the inside coating flaking off and
bouncing around. As I approached, a large piece of the outside
coating flew off in my general direction. I had to use a broomstick
to remove the kettle. I haven't calculated the differences in
expansion, but for something as small as a kettle, it was much smaller
than my predicted 1mm.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default water heater liners

On 10/18/2014 12:24 PM, Ian Malcolm wrote:
Charlie+ wrote in
I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
will not accumulate again.

snip

What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these
type of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this
type.. ! Informative post tho! C+


Over in the UK they tend to be copper or stainless and maintenance free
lifespans of 40+ years are not unusual. e.g. Albion brand stainless hot
water cylinders dont use any anodes and have a 25 year anti-corrosion
warrenty on the tank. The immersion heater element circuit should be RCD
protected, both for safety and so that any insulation failure will be
detected before significant electrolytic corrosion can occur.

Whoever first introduced vitreous enamel-lined mild steel hot water tanks
to the American market did you all a great disservice.


Subject line change, no charge.

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On 10/18/2014 4:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Incidentally, it doesn't take much movement to wreck a ceramic
coating. I had a nice ceramic coated steel tea kettle that I usually
heat on the kitchen stove top to about 180C. One day, I stupidly put
it directly on top of my wood burner running at about 300C. I
compounded the error by boiling off all the water. My first
indication of a problem was the sound of something like popcorn from
inside the kettle. That was the inside coating flaking off and
bouncing around. As I approached, a large piece of the outside
coating flew off in my general direction. I had to use a broomstick
to remove the kettle. I haven't calculated the differences in
expansion, but for something as small as a kettle, it was much smaller
than my predicted 1mm.


The ones we have at church are just fine. I don't
know the make and model. But, yes, they can.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
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micky wrote:

I think Kenmore is AOSmith because the intake and output pipes are
exactly the same distance apart as the wh that came with the house (when
no other brand I looked at had that. I'm compulsive. I didn't want to
use flexible and I didn't want zig-zag piping. ) And the front panels
were the same (although maybe they all use the same thermostats and
heaters.) Basically everything looks the same as the original.



The Sears model number will tell you who made it.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.


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On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:55:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

The Sears model number will tell you who made it.


There are numerous Sears manufacturers lists available online. Many
have missing prefix numbers or only include specific classifications,
such as power tools. If you can't find your model number prefix, just
try a different list:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm
http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1
http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html

On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufactu
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html

http://www.electrical-forensics.com
Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
fires:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Ho****er/Ho****erHeaters.html
and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:55:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

The Sears model number will tell you who made it.


There are numerous Sears manufacturers lists available online. Many
have missing prefix numbers or only include specific classifications,
such as power tools. If you can't find your model number prefix, just
try a different list:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm
http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1
http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html


Well I went to all three pages, and searching on smith, none listed
a.o.smith at all.

But I remember the clincher reason I thought that's what it was. The
first owner of the house left me the owners manual for the original
water heater, by aosmith, and the manual was amost identical to the one
that came with both of my Sears water heaters. Same text, same fonts,
same graphics



On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufactu
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html

http://www.electrical-forensics.com
Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
fires:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Ho****er/Ho****erHeaters.html
and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html


I'll check these out.

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On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 23:26:37 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~gbishop/Public/SearsSourceCodes.htm
http://vintagemachinery.org/craftsman/manufacturers.aspx?sort=1
http://www.asecc.com/data/sears.html


Well I went to all three pages, and searching on smith, none listed
a.o.smith at all.


Yeah, I noticed that. However, it seems that Sears/Kenmore does sell
AO Smith water heaters. Here's replacement parts for one AO Smith
model from the Sears web site:
http://parts.sears.com/partsdirect/part-model/Aosmith-Parts/Water-heater-Parts/Model-ESM30/0002/1081000/50032737/00001
and Sears repair service for AO Smith products:
http://www.searshomeservices.com/aosmith-water-heater-repair
A clue might be that the Sears parts page shows the water heater by
the AO Smith model number (ESM30) and not by the Sears style part
number. The web page shows parts for 205 assorted AO Smith water
heaters:
http://parts.sears.com/partsdirect/getProductType.pd?parentCategory=Plumbing&productT ype=Water-heater-Parts&sort=modelNumber&dir=asc&selectedBrand=Aosmi th&page=1
none of which show a Sears style part number.

But I remember the clincher reason I thought that's what it was. The
first owner of the house left me the owners manual for the original
water heater, by aosmith, and the manual was amost identical to the one
that came with both of my Sears water heaters. Same text, same fonts,
same graphics


AO Smith also posts some of their instruction manuals:
http://www.aosmithinternational.com/content/instruction-manuals

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On 10/18/2014 11:26 PM, micky wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufactu
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html

http://www.electrical-forensics.com
Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
fires:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Ho****er/Ho****erHeaters.html
and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html


I'll check these out.


The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
be worth it.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:31:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/18/2014 11:26 PM, micky wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 18:23:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
On some serial numbers, you can extract the date of manufactu
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/MajorAppliances/ApplianceManufacturers.html

http://www.electrical-forensics.com
Incidentally, the above web site has some rather interesting photos of
appliance related fires. For example, hot water heaters do NOT start
fires:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Ho****er/Ho****erHeaters.html
and portable electric heater misuse hazards:
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Heaters/ElectricHeaters.html


I'll check these out.


The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
be worth it.


It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
(It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
two kids use it. ).

The HOA people were looking at the house in the next building too, but I
wanted it here, so I could turn it off when I wanted too (not that I
ever have.) And they pay me $10 per quarter for the electricity I
use. It's been 20 years. I think they still do that. And the first
time the bulbs burnt out, I called the HOA and they sent a whole
electrician, with a ladder. Think how much that must have cost, just to
change a lightbulb. And I think I called once more when the fixture
itself had problems, but after that I couldn't bring myself to call
them. Now I'm going to look at it that the 10 dollars a quarter is
much more than the electricity costs, but it will eventually pay for the
fixture. 2 1/4years I guess. And the work I put in. Another year.
And then it can start paying for the time they towed my car away for no
good reason, and the time they threatened to.
-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.




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In sci.electronics.repair Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:13:17 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
wrote:

ALso plastic doesn't conduct heat all that well, leading to an
inefficient WH. Also a gas HWH has a pretty powerful burner, mine's
rated at 40,000 BTU/hour input.


No, no. You don't want any thermal conduction through the plastic
liner. The whole idea is to keep the heat inside the tank, not
radiate or conduct it to the outside. That's why there's a mess of
fiberglass insulation between the steel water tank and the outside
cosmetic steel cover. Some people add an additional water heater
insulating "jacket" on the outside of the heater. A thermal
insulating plastic layer between the water and the steel tank should
improve efficiency.


I was discussing a *gas* HWH, where you do want the heat from the
burner to be conducted through the tank to the water.


An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.

I suspect you suspicions about the
plastic buckling/warping and separating from the steel tank are
correct.


That was just a guess. I'm not so sure any more. The plastic liner
and steel tank are both fairly flexible, so they can bend and bulge
without breaking anything. You'll never see it because it all happens
inside the tank. If they're glued together (bonded) properly, I don't
think they will come apart. I was wondering why the water tank didn't
have stiffening ribs, which would allow the use of thinner steel. I
guess(tm) stiffening might interfere with the necessary flexing of the
tank with temperature.


I was thinking of the hot spots you could get with a gas HWH if the
plastic isn't in complete contact with the tank.


It should also be possible to dope the alumina ceramic coating with
something to help it match the coefficient of thermal expansion for
the steel. Even so, stratification, and the difference between
temperatures on both sides of the steel tank, will create enough of a
temperature gradient to possibly microcrack the ceramic.

Incidentally, it doesn't take much movement to wreck a ceramic
coating. I had a nice ceramic coated steel tea kettle that I usually
heat on the kitchen stove top to about 180C. One day, I stupidly put
it directly on top of my wood burner running at about 300C. I
compounded the error by boiling off all the water. My first
indication of a problem was the sound of something like popcorn from
inside the kettle. That was the inside coating flaking off and
bouncing around. As I approached, a large piece of the outside
coating flew off in my general direction. I had to use a broomstick
to remove the kettle. I haven't calculated the differences in
expansion, but for something as small as a kettle, it was much smaller
than my predicted 1mm.


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On 10/19/2014 12:57 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:31:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
be worth it.


It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
(It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
two kids use it. ).

Center posted, like yours.
Someone should fine the HOA for the uncleared
tree. Yes, I've heard about HOA and towing
cars, seems to be a major passion of theirs.
I don't remember the details, but I do know
some folks who were visiting out of town. The
folks said fine to park in front of the house
while you stay over night. Car missing in Am,
$130 plus tow bill.
The HOA people were looking at the house in the next building too, but I
wanted it here, so I could turn it off when I wanted too (not that I
ever have.) And they pay me $10 per quarter for the electricity I
use. It's been 20 years. I think they still do that. And the first
time the bulbs burnt out, I called the HOA and they sent a whole
electrician, with a ladder. Think how much that must have cost, just to
change a lightbulb. And I think I called once more when the fixture
itself had problems, but after that I couldn't bring myself to call
them. Now I'm going to look at it that the 10 dollars a quarter is
much more than the electricity costs, but it will eventually pay for the
fixture. 2 1/4years I guess. And the work I put in. Another year.
And then it can start paying for the time they towed my car away for no
good reason, and the time they threatened to.
-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.




--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:56:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.


No. Refrigerators always heat the kitchen, they have condensers as well
and ALL the heat removed from the interior and the operating losses are
added to the room heat.

?-)

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On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 17:35:42 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/19/2014 12:57 PM, micky wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:31:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

The ones that are good enough to be as bright,
can be twenty or thirty bucks per bulb. But,
if it means not having to go 24 feet up, might
be worth it.


It was the HOA's idea to put this light on my house, for secuirty
reasons, because I live right next to the path that goes into the woods.
(It used by JHS boys going in one direction, and HS boys going in the
other, to their respective schools, but 2 years ago a big tree fell down
blocking the path, with no good way to go around it, and now only one or
two kids use it. ).

Center posted, like yours.
Someone should fine the HOA for the uncleared
tree.


LOL. I hope not. I liked the kids and didn't mind them walking by,
but I'm happy the tree blocks their path. One or two of them would
ride their bikes on the grass, at least one of them even when the ground
was wet. One rider did about 10 times as much damage as one walker, and
one rider when it was wet did about 100 or 1000 times as much damage.

Anyhow, the land beyond mine is owned by Warren Buffett. I just learned
this a while back when the developer-apparent of a small old farm nearby
talked about who he dealt with concerining drainage from his property to
the stream. Well, he didnt deal with Buffet but with someone from his
company, maybe MidAmerican Energy Holdings Company's HomeServices of
America.

Yes, I've heard about HOA and towing
cars, seems to be a major passion of theirs.


Oh, yeah. They'd tow away your house, if they could.

I don't remember the details, but I do know
some folks who were visiting out of town. The
folks said fine to park in front of the house
while you stay over night. Car missing in Am,
$130 plus tow bill.


Darn.

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On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 15:14:05 -0700, josephkk
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 13:56:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


An easy way to tell if your water heater is a piece of junk is to
measure the case temperature of the water heater. Use a contact
thermometer (Thermocouple or thermistor, not optical IR). It's
probably the worst at the top of the heater. If the outer case is
warmer than the ambient air, you're wasting energy heating that
atmosphere instead of the water. Same with a refrigerator. If the
case of the fridge is colder than ambient, you're cooling the kitchen.


No. Refrigerators always heat the kitchen, they have condensers as well
and ALL the heat removed from the interior and the operating losses are
added to the room heat.

?-)


I wasn't suggesting that you measure the temperature of the back of
the refrigerator. Just the case temperatures, which means the sides,
front, and possibly the top. The coils in back will certainly heat up
the wall and the back of the case, but I don't think it's huge because
the room and room air make a rather large heat sink.

It's easy enough to estimate how much heat the fridge delivers to the
room. A fancy new energy efficient 18 cubic foot fridge uses about
500 kw-hr/year or an average of:
500 kw-hr/year * 1yr/365days = 1.4 kw-hr/day
Over 24 hrs, that's the equivalent of:
1400 watt-hrs/day / 24 hrs/day = 57 watts
That's about the same heat that would be delivered by a 60 watt light
bulb running all day in the same room. Like I mumbled... not much
heat. Older fridges are not that efficient, but even 3 to 5 times as
much heat would not make much of a difference in room temperature.

I just checked my bar size fridge with a thermocouple thermometer. The
front door is the same as ambient at 17C while the top and sides are
about 20C. So, for a decent fridge, you're correct and the sides are
warmer. However, I've seen refrigerators that were sweating condensed
water and felt seriously cold on the sides and door. Sears took it
back and replaced it with one that had more insulation, which worked
as expected. Since then, I've seen a few others that were cold to the
touch.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

On 10/20/2014 12:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that you measure the temperature of the back of
the refrigerator. Just the case temperatures, which means the sides,
front, and possibly the top. The coils in back will certainly heat up
the wall and the back of the case, but I don't think it's huge because
the room and room air make a rather large heat sink.

It's easy enough to estimate how much heat the fridge delivers to the
room. A fancy new energy efficient 18 cubic foot fridge uses about
500 kw-hr/year or an average of:
500 kw-hr/year * 1yr/365days = 1.4 kw-hr/day
Over 24 hrs, that's the equivalent of:
1400 watt-hrs/day / 24 hrs/day = 57 watts
That's about the same heat that would be delivered by a 60 watt light
bulb running all day in the same room. Like I mumbled... not much
heat. Older fridges are not that efficient, but even 3 to 5 times as
much heat would not make much of a difference in room temperature.

I just checked my bar size fridge with a thermocouple thermometer. The
front door is the same as ambient at 17C while the top and sides are
about 20C. So, for a decent fridge, you're correct and the sides are
warmer. However, I've seen refrigerators that were sweating condensed
water and felt seriously cold on the sides and door. Sears took it
back and replaced it with one that had more insulation, which worked
as expected. Since then, I've seen a few others that were cold to the
touch.



Eventually, the guys at church will use a couple more
of the flood lights that are as bright as a "real"
one. I'll try and take home one of the boxes. Will
let you know what brand and model and so on.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

On 13/10/14 3:53 AM, Bob F wrote:
micky wrote:
Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?


The city street lights on my block are now LEDs, and they are plenty bright.


Came across an interesting article:

Your eco-friendly LED lights are drawing an awful lot more moths
http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/17/l...lshare_twitter

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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

Eventually they should be. Right now they waste energy (produces heat but
not enough light) with transforming. I understand they will be doing pure
transistor voltage clipping which should be a heck of a lot more efficient
and produce fewer heat issues. This from asking dumb questions at trade shows
and fully understanding the folks at the booths might not really know. I have
a few 200W incandescents at home and haven't quite been able to replace
them. Then again I'm just a Chem Engr who took two oblig EE courses and grew
up with two vaccuum-tube-educated (photoypesetting and avionics) EE uncles.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
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Default Can and LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?

In message , Scott Lurndal
writes
Jeff Liebermann writes:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 11:45:50 -0400, micky
wrote:

Also, if there were a soft plastic inside liner, I
would expect it to melt from the heat of gas flame at the bottom.


Have you never boiled water in a styrofoam cup over an open flame?

One can. The water keeps the temperature of the foam below its
melting point.


A rather late follow-up.....

When I was very young, my uncle had a book that showed you how to make
things out of folded paper, One was 'working' kettle, and I remember
pestering my mother to help me make it up, then to boil some water in it
over a candle flame.
--
Ian
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