OT. Another "black box"
 

Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks
the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:51:22 -0600, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:


Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks
the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg


Not surprising. Thieves have been stealing alarmed cars for a long
time already, this just makes it easier. Locking your car just keeps
the 10 years olds out of it.

OT. Another "black box"
 

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:51:22 -0600, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:


Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks
the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg


Not surprising. Thieves have been stealing alarmed cars for a long
time already, this just makes it easier. Locking your car just keeps
the 10 years olds out of it.

And makes less marginally less embaressing when you call the insurance
company (grin)
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:14:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:51:22 -0600, Dean Hoffman

" wrote:





Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks

the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg



There are actually 2 paths these sort of things can exploit. I believe

this one just overloads the key fob receiver by sending all of the

available codes in a short period of time.

It would sure have to be one crappy design if the car allows
that to happen. More logical would be if it gets too many
codes in a short time, it ignores any more for some period of
time. And I would think that there isn't a list of codes, it's
a pseudo random rolling sequence, like garage door openers have
used for decades, apparently successfully. The car and the fob
are synched and generate pseudo random codes to the same algorithmn,
but even that is based on a random starting point. Not clear to
me how you can easily overcome any of that.



The more insidious devices

crack into the "OnStar" (or similar) interface. That gives them even

more capability.

If you can crack into that, unless you crack into and have access
to the Onstar system at it's source, i would think you'd face
problems similar to the above.

OT. Another "black box"
 

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:51:22 -0600, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:


Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks
the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg

There are actually 2 paths these sort of things can exploit. I believe
this one just overloads the key fob receiver by sending all of the
available codes in a short period of time. The more insidious devices
crack into the "OnStar" (or similar) interface. That gives them even
more capability.

There is also a receiver thing that, when you hit the fob to lock it,
grabs the signal and the codes. Then clone it. Easy Peasy.
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein

OT. Another "black box"
 

On 2/28/2014 11:41 AM, wrote:

There are actually 2 paths these sort of things can exploit. I believe

this one just overloads the key fob receiver by sending all of the

available codes in a short period of time.

It would sure have to be one crappy design if the car allows
that to happen.

Considering the history of designs of the automobile you know it can't
happen.

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:51:26 AM UTC-5, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

wrote:



On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:51:22 -0600, Dean Hoffman

" wrote:





Thieves have some gizmo that disables car alarms and unlocks

the doors. From CBS Chicago: http://tinyurl.com/mzx7shg



There are actually 2 paths these sort of things can exploit. I believe

this one just overloads the key fob receiver by sending all of the

available codes in a short period of time. The more insidious devices

crack into the "OnStar" (or similar) interface. That gives them even

more capability.



There is also a receiver thing that, when you hit the fob to lock it,

grabs the signal and the codes. Then clone it. Easy Peasy.


It's not easy at all. Not if it uses rolling pseudo
random codes like all the garage door openers use
today, which AFAIK is what they do use in cars. That technology
has existed for decades and you can't defeat it by just grabbing
a code. Having the current code just sent doesn't do any good,
because the next time the code gets sent it's completely different
from the one that was just sent. The transmitter and the receiver
are both on the same pseudo random rolling sequence and you can't
figure that out by just grabbing a code or two that is sent.

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Friday, February 28, 2014 12:05:46 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/28/2014 11:41 AM, wrote:



There are actually 2 paths these sort of things can exploit. I believe



this one just overloads the key fob receiver by sending all of the



available codes in a short period of time.



It would sure have to be one crappy design if the car allows

that to happen.



Considering the history of designs of the automobile you know it can't

happen.

I'm still trying to figure out the big fuss over at GM with the
recall of millions of cars. From what I can see, there were 30
accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car
off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many
cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results
in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition
switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction? With the
switch off, the air bags won't deploy, but from the pics I saw on
TV, the wrecks they showed didn't appear survivable with or without
an air bag. Nothing left of the car, the driver wasn't wearing a seat
belt. Not sure if it was that accident or another one, but some
of them, the drivers had been drinking. But, heh, it's all GM's fault..

IMO a little bit of driver ed in the parking lot, showing students
how the steering and brakes react when the car loses power would
be a better idea than the big recall of 10 year old cars.

OT. Another "black box"
 

Per :
From what I can see, there were 30
accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car
off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many
cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results
in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition
switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction?

I wonder what it does to the power steering and power brakes.

Just to be prepared, I tried cutting the engine on my '72 Chrysler going
down a gravel road.

I'm probably stronger than most and I was barely able to apply the
brakes hard enough to have much effect. And the steering was really a
bear.... I can't imagine the average woman being able to steer that
thing with the engine dead.

What's even worse to me is the way my '98 Suburban handled a failed
alternator. It let the engine suck the battery dry... then the engine
just suddenly died leaving not even enough juice to power the hazard
lights. Almost no brakes, almost impossible to steer, and no way to
put the flashers on..... i.e. if it happened on a freeway for most
drivers the vehicle would probably wind up drifting to a dead stop in a
traffic lane. Very bad Ju-Ju.
--
Pete Cresswell

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 16:21:10 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per :
From what I can see, there were 30
accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car
off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many
cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results
in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition
switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction?

I wonder what it does to the power steering and power brakes.

Just to be prepared, I tried cutting the engine on my '72 Chrysler going
down a gravel road.

I'm probably stronger than most and I was barely able to apply the
brakes hard enough to have much effect. And the steering was really a
bear.... I can't imagine the average woman being able to steer that
thing with the engine dead.

What's even worse to me is the way my '98 Suburban handled a failed
alternator. It let the engine suck the battery dry... then the engine
just suddenly died leaving not even enough juice to power the hazard
lights. Almost no brakes, almost impossible to steer, and no way to
put the flashers on..... i.e. if it happened on a freeway for most
drivers the vehicle would probably wind up drifting to a dead stop in a
traffic lane. Very bad Ju-Ju.
And you had NO indication the alternator had failed??? The check
engine light DEFINITELY came on. If you had the hvac blower running,
it slowed down. Your signals slowed down. It it was at night your
heaslights got weak. If it was not dark, and the heater fan was not
running you had almost 2 hours of driving without the alternator
before the engine died, and if you restarted it within an hour of the
failure it would have cranked slowly. My brother drove from Elkhart
Indiana to London Ontario with his van towing a trailer with a dead
alternator and was still able to drive into s service center when it
got too dark to drive without headlights. I had to drive from Waterloo
to London with a spare battery and cables to get him started - and
driving home I had his battery on charge in my vehicle so we could
switch again if necessary.. Made it home 100km (1 hour) with only 4
ways - using my headlights running ahead of him.

At highway speeds as long as the traffic is not heavy, you can guide a
totally dead vehicle to the side of the road and let it coast to a
stop even if it has power steering and brakes. At low speeds in town
is when the fun starts!!

OT. Another "black box"
 

On 2/28/2014 3:20 PM, wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out the big fuss over at GM with the
recall of millions of cars. From what I can see, there were 30
accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car
off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many
cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results
in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition
switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction?

One thing I did not see, does it also lock up the steering wheel? IIRC
you are in NJ. Picture the Garden State Parkway, 8 AM, at 75 mph and
you are in the middle lane when the engine dies and steering wheel locks
up. I don't want to be behind you on a curve.

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:47:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/28/2014 3:20 PM, wrote:



I'm still trying to figure out the big fuss over at GM with the

recall of millions of cars. From what I can see, there were 30

accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car

off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many

cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results

in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition

switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction?



One thing I did not see, does it also lock up the steering wheel? IIRC

you are in NJ. Picture the Garden State Parkway, 8 AM, at 75 mph and

you are in the middle lane when the engine dies and steering wheel locks

up. I don't want to be behind you on a curve.

No, from everything I've read or seen on TV, no mention of it locking
the steering wheel. If it did, 99.9% chance that they would have
included that. They said the key just moves from on to the ACC position,
which in any car I've had, did not lock the wheel.

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Saturday, March 1, 2014 6:05:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:47:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/28/2014 3:20 PM, wrote:







I'm still trying to figure out the big fuss over at GM with the



recall of millions of cars. From what I can see, there were 30



accidents and 6 deaths because the ignition switch turned the car



off and apparently people can no longer deal with that. How many



cars have all kinds of failures everyday that results



in the engine quitting? Like running out of gas? But 30 ignition



switches shutoff and the result is death and destruction?







One thing I did not see, does it also lock up the steering wheel? IIRC



you are in NJ. Picture the Garden State Parkway, 8 AM, at 75 mph and



you are in the middle lane when the engine dies and steering wheel locks



up. I don't want to be behind you on a curve.



No, from everything I've read or seen on TV, no mention of it locking

the steering wheel. If it did, 99.9% chance that they would have

included that. They said the key just moves from on to the ACC position,

which in any car I've had, did not lock the wheel.

Yep. I have had cars with locking steering wheels from when they first came out ?37? ford to modern day and none of them would lock without turning the key full off. Automatics nowadays can't belocked until the trannyi is in Park.

As for how one acts with no power to brakes steering? Stiff but not that bad. I once pushed my 70 yoa mother over 20 miles in her dead car through a town with 3 stoplights. She had no problem. Why "push"? All I had was a chain and that resulted in horrible jerks and yanks going up/down hills. Not that hard to synchronize speeds to achieve a gentle nudge recontacting at the bottom of a hill.

Harry K

OT. Another "black box"
 

Per :
And you had NO indication the alternator had failed???

No doubt, the vehicle tried to tell me some way or another - if nothing
else, the battery charge rate would have dropped to zero.

But if I am driving, I'm not studying the dashboard. An audible alarm
would get my attention. A blinking light probably would too. But low
numbers on gauges definitely get lost for me.

Yeah, "instrument scan" and all that.... but in practice, I'm looking at
the road and my mirrors.



--
Pete Cresswell

OT. Another "black box"
 

On Saturday, March 1, 2014 2:46:57 PM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :

And you had NO indication the alternator had failed???



No doubt, the vehicle tried to tell me some way or another - if nothing

else, the battery charge rate would have dropped to zero.



But if I am driving, I'm not studying the dashboard. An audible alarm

would get my attention. A blinking light probably would too. But low

numbers on gauges definitely get lost for me.



Yeah, "instrument scan" and all that.... but in practice, I'm looking at

the road and my mirrors.







--

Pete Cresswell

I know someone that had a very similar experience in an SUV.
The alternator had failed and from the first indication they had
to the car going dead was just a couple of miles, enough to make
a parkway exit, but that was it. I agree that you sure would think
you'd get a lot more notice, but either they didn't or whatever notice
there was was not attention grabbing.