I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot
above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage
and the house.

I plan to attach a 2 by 4 to the wall with lag bolts into the bottom
plate of the wall. The back of shelf will sit on the 2 by 4
attached to the wall and the front will sit on another 2 by 4
supported by 2 by 4 legs.

(The garage floor is about a foot below the finished floor of the
house which is above the crawlspace. I live in an frost-free area
so I do not have a basement. The bottom foot of the wall in the
garage is concrete.)

I want to attach 2 by 4 cross pieces to the front and back 2 by 4's
with joist hangers about every 16 inches. I plan to attach the legs
to the front 2 by 4 with upside-down joist hangers. I will use
drywall screws to fasten the joist hangers to the 2 by 4's. I will
use the largest particle board shelf I can find at Home Depot or
Lowes as the top of the shelf. I think I have seen some that are 8
feet by 16 inches by about 0.75 inches thick.

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.
--
When I am in the kitchen, I often kick one of my cat's balls.
After I kick it, he will sometimes play with it for a few
seconds to several minutes. His favorite are the ones that
rattle. He'll play with any ball that makes noise.

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 11:48:29 AM UTC-4, Daniel Prince wrote:
I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot

above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage

and the house.


Can you use 16 inches instead of 12? Just stack two concrete blocks. Put the shelf on top of them. Stronger and cheaper.

On 7/3/2013 10:48 AM, Daniel Prince wrote:
I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot
above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage
and the house.

I plan to attach a 2 by 4 to the wall with lag bolts into the bottom
plate of the wall. The back of shelf will sit on the 2 by 4
attached to the wall and the front will sit on another 2 by 4
supported by 2 by 4 legs.
....

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Just how strong is "STRONG"? How much weight and of what type
(concentrated vs distributed) load?

I'd be _very_ surprised if you put enough on it that simply nailing up a
frame w/ 16d commons thru the outer rims before mounting to wall
wouldn't be sufficient. I'd probably just notch the legs and nail them
as well and dispense w/ the hangers.

Also, if you really are talking of supporting a lot of weight, 3/4 CDX
ply is much more suitable than particle board (albeit that's a cost
boost, not decrease).

--

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what dimensions?
Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I'd build the basic frame on a flat floor to make sure the frame ends up being flat. Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.
Consider bracing the lower portion of the legs to prevent the legs from shifting/weakening under load. Or just use concrete block as another post suggested.

"TimR" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 11:48:29 AM UTC-4, Daniel Prince wrote:
I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot

above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage

and the house.


Can you use 16 inches instead of 12? Just stack two concrete blocks. Put
the shelf on top of them. Stronger and cheaper.


They make 4 inch wide blocks also. stick them together with a few dabs of
caulking. WW

Here's one guy's solution, I'd do it a little different but you'll
get the idea, partial board for strong shelves? No way.... they will
sag even when braced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfzU-WhV1A

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:48:29 -0700, Daniel Prince
wrote:



I will
use the largest particle board shelf I can find at Home Depot or
Lowes as the top of the shelf. I think I have seen some that are 8
feet by 16 inches by about 0.75 inches thick.

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive?


Depending on the use, particle board may be ideal, or if you have
concentrated weight, it will have dips in it. The stuff is cheap, but
very flexible compared to other materials.

Here's one guy's solution, I'd do it a little different but you'll
get the idea, partial board for strong shelves? No way.... they will
sag even when braced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfzU-WhV1A

Daniel Prince wrote:

Here's one guy's solution, I'd do it a little different but you'll
get the idea, partial board for strong shelves? No way.... they will
sag even when braced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfzU-WhV1A

On Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:22:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what dimensions?
Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I'd build the basic frame on a flat floor to make sure the frame ends up being flat. Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.
Consider bracing the lower portion of the legs to prevent the legs from shifting/weakening under load. Or just use concrete block as another post suggested.

Unless I knew what's it for, it's hard to say.
A single shelf a foot off the floor? Why even attach it to the wall?
I'd call it a platform, because it's too low down to call it a
workbench. But maybe it is a bench, like for an audience.
If the floor is dry and is flat enough, one thing nobody mentioned is
what I'll just call "floor shelf."
Whatever color you want the shelf to be, just paint the floor that
color in whatever size shelf you want. So nobody misunderstands
your intent, paint or decal "SHELF" around the border.
The real beauty of the floor shelf is when something falls off the
shelf to the floor, it doesn't have far to go.

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:02:46 -0500, Fat-Dumb and Happy
wrote:

Daniel Prince wrote:

Here's one guy's solution, I'd do it a little different but you'll
get the idea, partial board for strong shelves? No way.... they will
sag even when braced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfzU-WhV1A

That works. 2x2s would do it if he's not storing lead acid batteries
on them. More "elbow" space and better looking.
I was thinking of making one set, but then I watched the video every
times you posted, and decided making 3 was too much work.
Besides, he was putting the shelves in the same spot every time.
Didn't make much sense.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:02:46 -0500, Fat-Dumb and Happy
wrote:

Daniel Prince wrote:

Here's one guy's solution, I'd do it a little different but you'll
get the idea, partial board for strong shelves? No way.... they will
sag even when braced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfzU-WhV1A

That works. 2x2s would do it if he's not storing lead acid batteries
on them. More "elbow" space and better looking.
I was thinking of making one set, but then I watched the video every
times you posted, and decided making 3 was too much work.
Besides, he was putting the shelves in the same spot every time.
Didn't make much sense.

I'm blaming it on the NSA, I kept getting a message the reply
wouldn't send... so I tried it again... and again.

Daniel Prince wrote:
I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot
above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage
and the house.

I plan to attach a 2 by 4 to the wall with lag bolts into the bottom
plate of the wall. The back of shelf will sit on the 2 by 4
attached to the wall and the front will sit on another 2 by 4
supported by 2 by 4 legs.

(The garage floor is about a foot below the finished floor of the
house which is above the crawlspace. I live in an frost-free area
so I do not have a basement.

Why does frost free imply no basement???


The bottom foot of the wall in the
garage is concrete.)

I want to attach 2 by 4 cross pieces to the front and back 2 by 4's
with joist hangers about every 16 inches. I plan to attach the legs
to the front 2 by 4 with upside-down joist hangers. I will use
drywall screws to fasten the joist hangers to the 2 by 4's. I will
use the largest particle board shelf I can find at Home Depot or
Lowes as the top of the shelf. I think I have seen some that are 8
feet by 16 inches by about 0.75 inches thick.

Drywall screws are definately NOT STRONG. Particle board is also NOT STRONG, and
absolutely hates water.


Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

I just checked the NSA web site, and they admit to jamming your email feed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dNxK_wslqo
They say that TSA was responsible.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Fat-Dumb and Happy" wrote in message ...
I was thinking of making one set, but then I watched the video every
times you posted, and decided making 3 was too much work.

I'm blaming it on the NSA, I kept getting a message the reply
wouldn't send... so I tried it again... and again.

wrote:

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what dimensions?
Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I have two old bookcases and a steel cabinet against the wall. I
had several termite mud tunnels behind the bookcases and the cabinet
that I could not see. I want to put the bookcases and the cabinet
on the shelf with the space under the shelf empty so that I can
easily see any termite mud tunnels. The bookcases are lightly
loaded but the steel cabinet is full of power tools and extension
cords so it is moderately heavy.

Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?
--
When a cat sits in a human's lap both the human and the cat are usually
happy. The human is happy because he thinks the cat is sitting on him/her
because it loves her/him. The cat is happy because it thinks that by sitting
on the human it is dominant over the human.

Daniel Prince wrote:
I want to install a STRONG shelf on my garage wall about a foot
above the floor. The shelf will be on the wall between the garage
and the house.

I plan to attach a 2 by 4 to the wall with lag bolts into the bottom
plate of the wall. The back of shelf will sit on the 2 by 4
attached to the wall and the front will sit on another 2 by 4
supported by 2 by 4 legs.

(The garage floor is about a foot below the finished floor of the
house which is above the crawlspace. I live in an frost-free area
so I do not have a basement.

Was does frost have to do with having a basement or not?

.... Snip...

On 7/4/2013 12:20 PM, Daniel Prince wrote:
wrote:

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what dimensions?
Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I have two old bookcases and a steel cabinet against the wall. I
had several termite mud tunnels behind the bookcases and the cabinet
that I could not see. I want to put the bookcases and the cabinet
on the shelf with the space under the shelf empty so that I can
easily see any termite mud tunnels. The bookcases are lightly
loaded but the steel cabinet is full of power tools and extension
cords so it is moderately heavy.

Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

Actually, I've never had a DW screw snap under load. Yes, sometimes, in
some materials, they will snap while driving them in. But that's a
twisting action, not pure shear or tensile. I put up shelves in my
garage using a 2x2 frame under each 1/2"+ OSB shelf surface. The
verticals are only 1x2s and the diagonal supports on the bottom are
2x2s. All done with drywall screws into the studs in the walls. The
frame itself is nailed together with pneumatic finishing nails. I can
put my 200+lb body on the shelves with virtually no movement. I
actually have a pic of me on the shelf, but I will spare you that site.
Check out this pic
https://picasaweb.google.com/1101143...69412516223618
and the next few. Presently, there is a lot more weight on them than in
the pic.

On 7/4/2013 11:20 AM, Daniel Prince wrote:
wrote:

....

Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

If they're only in compression and not shear they'll serve to hold
pieces together, but, as noted previously, why? Just nail it together;
if you arrange it right all they're doing is holding the pieces in place.

As suggested before just build the square frame and fasten it to the
wall then use a few strategically-located legs(+) under for supports.
If you either just fit them under (w/ a scab to hold in place) or
(better) notch to match, then the weight is all transferred to them and
the fasteners aren't doing anything to hold up the weight; that's being
borne by the end grain of the legs and the compressive load on the
frame/shelf. No need to make it any more complex than needs be...

(+) Since is garage and you've indicated some existing termite issues,
I'd suggest using p-treated for the parts touching floor/concrete and
the back wall cleat/frame piece. That'll minimize desirability of the
pieces that are in contact and not fully visible at least.

--

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:20:53 -0700, Daniel Prince
wrote:




Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

Spax screws Check out Lee Valley and McFeelys
www.leevalley.com www.mcfeelys.com

http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware...06,41315,47226

http://www.mcfeelys.com/spax-screws

Daniel Prince wrote:
wrote:

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what
dimensions? Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I have two old bookcases and a steel cabinet against the wall. I
had several termite mud tunnels behind the bookcases and the cabinet
that I could not see. I want to put the bookcases and the cabinet
on the shelf with the space under the shelf empty so that I can
easily see any termite mud tunnels. The bookcases are lightly
loaded but the steel cabinet is full of power tools and extension
cords so it is moderately heavy.

For what you want to accomplish, I think you may want to just get rid of the
cabinet and bookcases that you now have and just replace them with these
shelves from Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-5-She...1099/100010588 .

They are cheap and strong, and they set up in minutes. Each set only costs
about $35; and are 36-inches wide, 18-inches deep, and 72-inches high. Two
or three sets is all you would need to create the amount of shelf surface
area that you are thinking of building.

Here is a link to a video that shows how easy they are to put together:


http://cache.vendaria.com/integratio..._2109425036001



I have these in two different garages and two different basements. They are
very strong and solidly built. I store power tools and equipment and other
heavy items on them with no problem at all.


And, they sit up off the ground and are "see-through" -- meaning there are
no backs on the shelves, so you can see the wall behind the shelves. And,
you can even see down through the shelves -- including the bottom shelf to
see the floor and wall at the ground level. You wouldn't miss seeing any
termite tunnels with these shelves. And, since they are made of plastic,
the termites won't attack them like they could the wooden shelves that you
are thinking of building.

On 7/4/2013 1:43 PM, TomR wrote:
Daniel Prince wrote:
wrote:
....

I have two old bookcases and a steel cabinet against the wall. I
had several termite mud tunnels behind the bookcases and the cabinet
that I could not see. I want to put the bookcases and the cabinet
on the shelf with the space under the shelf empty so that I can
easily see any termite mud tunnels. The bookcases are lightly
loaded but the steel cabinet is full of power tools and extension
cords so it is moderately heavy.

For what you want to accomplish, I think you may want to just get rid of the
cabinet and bookcases that you now have and just replace them with these
shelves from Home Depot:

....[big snip for brevity]...

+1

Other than OP may want to keep the (I presume file) cabinet -- if so,
that would definitely be candidate for the block support idea so can
check underneath...

--

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Was does frost have to do with having a basement or not?

My understanding is that in areas that have frost, footings have to
go four feet or more underground. Builders often decide that if
they have to dig that deep, they might as well dig a little deeper
and have a basement they can use for water heaters, furnaces, oil
tanks, water filters, water softners, electrical panels, pipe,
ductwork and wire runs etc.
--
When a cat sits in a human's lap both the human and the cat are usually
happy. The human is happy because he thinks the cat is sitting on him/her
because it loves her/him. The cat is happy because it thinks that by sitting
on the human it is dominant over the human.

dpb wrote:

Other than OP may want to keep the (I presume file) cabinet

It is the type of wardrobe cabinet factories use for workers. It is
two feet wide and about six feet high.
--
When a cat sits in a human's lap both the human and the cat are usually
happy. The human is happy because he thinks the cat is sitting on him/her
because it loves her/him. The cat is happy because it thinks that by sitting
on the human it is dominant over the human.

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 02:30:50 -0700, Daniel Prince
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Was does frost have to do with having a basement or not?

My understanding is that in areas that have frost, footings have to
go four feet or more underground. Builders often decide that if
they have to dig that deep, they might as well dig a little deeper
and have a basement they can use for water heaters, furnaces, oil
tanks, water filters, water softners, electrical panels, pipe,
ductwork and wire runs etc.


While that does have a ring of truth, it is probably more likely that
the water table is low enough that if we dig a hole it will stay dry.
Once you get the cellar hole dug you still have to dig a little deeper
around the perimeter and pour a footing.

Daniel Prince wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Was does frost have to do with having a basement or not?

My understanding is that in areas that have frost, footings have to
go four feet or more underground.

To be more precise, footings have to be placed below the frost line. In
many areas, it is indeed 4 feet. In some areas it's less, in some it's much
more.

https://www.decks.com/deckbuilding/D...rost_Depth_Map

Builders often decide that if
they have to dig that deep, they might as well dig a little deeper
and have a basement they can use for water heaters, furnaces, oil
tanks, water filters, water softners, electrical panels, pipe,
ductwork and wire runs etc.

To be more precise, the person(s) who contracted the building to be built
will decide whether a basement should be added, assuming that there are no
other factors the would prevent it.

In your OP you said "I live in an frost-free area so I do not have a
basement"

I don't know the real reason as to why you don't have a basement, but it's
not because you live in a frost free area. In other words, there are lots
of houses in frost free areas that have basements for all the reasons you
mentioned above, plus many more.

Good luck with your shelf project.

"Daniel Prince" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Snip
Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?
--
I use dry wall screws on all types of woodworking. The only time having them
break is on twisting (as when driving into oak and forgetting to pre drill.
WW

Daniel Prince wrote:
dpb wrote:

Other than OP may want to keep the (I presume file) cabinet

It is the type of wardrobe cabinet factories use for workers. It is
two feet wide and about six feet high.

If you want to keep the wardrobe cabinet, maybe just put that up on a few
bricks or blocks so you can look under it for termite tunnels. And then
just get two sets of the shelves that I posted about earlier and use them to
replace the wooden shelves that you have now.

On 7/5/2013 6:42 AM, WW wrote:


"Daniel Prince" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Snip
Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

gold deck screws from the borg

WW wrote:
"Daniel Prince" wrote in message
...

wrote:

Snip
Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

Drywall screws are not designed for strength. They are skinny brittle little
thing designed to hole a weak brittle sheet to the wall.

Daniel Prince wrote:
wrote:

Does what I have described sound like a good plan? Can you think of
anything I could change that would make the shelf easier to make, or
less expensive? Thank you in advance for any help.

Purpose of "shelf"? What kind of load do you expect, and what dimensions?
Sounds more like you're building a bench...

I have two old bookcases and a steel cabinet against the wall. I
had several termite mud tunnels behind the bookcases and the cabinet
that I could not see. I want to put the bookcases and the cabinet
on the shelf with the space under the shelf empty so that I can
easily see any termite mud tunnels. The bookcases are lightly
loaded but the steel cabinet is full of power tools and extension
cords so it is moderately heavy.

Don't use drywall screws, they're brittle and will snap under load.

Can you recommend screws that are as easy to drive as drywall screws
but are not brittle?

I'm purposely not getting into argument about the strength of drywall
screws because I don't think that's the main concern here.

I'd be more concerned about dampness, thus the suggestion to use PT wood
for any wood that touches concrete.

Drywall screws will rust and eventually disintegrate if they remain wet. I
would suggest that you use Deckmates or other such screws that are designed
for exterior use.

Not only will they last longer, but the star drive will make them much
easier to install.

On 7/7/2013 9:57 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I'm purposely not getting into argument about the strength of drywall
screws because I don't think that's the main concern here.
....

And, there's really no need for screws, per se, anyway...other than the
one ledger against the wall, possibly, and even there a 12 or 16d common
will be all it'll ever need. And, as for the rest of the frame, ditto.
There's nothing in tension to need anything more if it's designed at
all smartly.

--

On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 14:57:15 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:



Not only will they last longer, but the star drive will make them much
easier to install.

I use square drive (aka Robertson) when I have a choice.
But to each his own.

dpb wrote:
On 7/7/2013 9:57 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I'm purposely not getting into argument about the strength of drywall
screws because I don't think that's the main concern here.
...

And, there's really no need for screws, per se, anyway...other than the
one ledger against the wall, possibly, and even there a 12 or 16d common
will be all it'll ever need. And, as for the rest of the frame, ditto.
There's nothing in tension to need anything more if it's designed at all smartly.

--

Given the choice of attaching the ledger with screws or nails, I'll choose
screws every time. In fact, given the choice of nails vs. screws for any
attachment, I'll choose screws virtually every time. Easy install, easy
removal, etc.

Obviously there are times when nails make more sense, like trim, etc.
However, if I'm building a frame for a shelf or anything similar, it's
getting screwed together.

Granted, if I had a framing nailer or even a palm nailer, I might use nails
for some projects, but when it's a choice between a hammer and screw gun,
the screw gun wins out every time.

On 7/7/2013 11:28 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

Given the choice of attaching the ledger with screws or nails, I'll choose
screws every time. In fact, given the choice of nails vs. screws for any
attachment, I'll choose screws virtually every time. Easy install, easy
removal, etc.
....

OP said he was going w/ lag's for that so I presumed we were talking the
frame, etc., primarily if not exclusively. OTOH, for his purpose, it'll
never come off o' there if just nailed, either--

Granted, if I had a framing nailer or even a palm nailer, I might use nails
for some projects, but when it's a choice between a hammer and screw gun,
the screw gun wins out every time.

I've got both but the hammer will win almost every time w/ me--it's less
nuisance and cheaper and unless there's a real reason for the screw it
just doesn't turn me on (so to speak... )...

A prime reason may be you'll play the devil driving a screw of _any_
sort in any of this 100-yo SYP which is 90% of what I'm generally
dealing with either in the house or any of the outbuildings. OTOH I
_can_ drive a nail in it.

--