Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

I can easily see it in addition to fire, and the air conditioner will be
more efficient when it's used. I guess fire takes over when the air is not
used,but it has to do both ways.

Greg

On Dec 8, 3:25*pm, gregz wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

I can easily see it in addition to fire, and the air conditioner will be
more efficient when it's used. I guess fire takes over when the air is not
used,but it has to do both ways.

Greg

DD & Greg are both correct. In concept it's a good idea but whether
it really works well & pays is all about the numbers.
How much energy does the AC remove & when, seasonal & daily basis.
How much energy does the pool need & when, seasonal & daily basis.

How well these two systems "match up" will determine viability.

Even a very large AC load (5+ tons) would still be much smaller than
most pool heaters.

But, the "heat" from the AC is essentially free once the system mods
were made.
Providing a few tons (24,000 to 50,000 btu/hr) would lower your
natural gas bill.

Like, Greg, I see this AC pool heater as supplying some sort of
baseline heating with a gas fired unit also being required.

imo, the AC pool heater would lower yearly energy costs but not
eliminate the need for a conventional heater... unless the owner was
satisfied with a "greener" but lower performing pool heating system.

cheers
Bob

In article ,
DD_BobK wrote:



I can easily see it in addition to fire, and the air conditioner will be
more efficient when it's used. I guess fire takes over when the air is not
used,but it has to do both ways.

Greg

DD & Greg are both correct. In concept it's a good idea but whether
it really works well & pays is all about the numbers.
How much energy does the AC remove & when, seasonal & daily basis.
How much energy does the pool need & when, seasonal & daily basis.

How well these two systems "match up" will determine viability.

Even a very large AC load (5+ tons) would still be much smaller than
most pool heaters.

But, the "heat" from the AC is essentially free once the system mods
were made.
Providing a few tons (24,000 to 50,000 btu/hr) would lower your
natural gas bill.

Like, Greg, I see this AC pool heater as supplying some sort of
baseline heating with a gas fired unit also being required.

imo, the AC pool heater would lower yearly energy costs but not
eliminate the need for a conventional heater... unless the owner was
satisfied with a "greener" but lower performing pool heating system.

cheers
Bob

If we're talking a heat pump here, then in the winter, the HP is going to pull
heat out of the pool which may have a very nice financial payback...it's going
to work like a geothermal pump but not as expensive. Downside is that it may
take longer to heat the thing up in the summer and will make the pool unusable
in the winter

Since the pool water is colder than the outdoor air, it could also lower
your electric bill for the AC.

Liquid cooled condensors have been in use for years, but usually commercial
applications.

My sense, is that there won't be enough return for the investment.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DD_BobK" wrote in message
...

But, the "heat" from the AC is essentially free once the system mods
were made.
Providing a few tons (24,000 to 50,000 btu/hr) would lower your
natural gas bill.


cheers
Bob

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Since the pool water is colder than the outdoor air, it could also lower
your electric bill for the AC.

Liquid cooled condensors have been in use for years, but usually commercial
applications.

My sense, is that there won't be enough return for the investment.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"DD_BobK" wrote in message
...

But, the "heat" from the AC is essentially free once the system mods
were made.
Providing a few tons (24,000 to 50,000 btu/hr) would lower your
natural gas bill.


cheers
Bob

They did indeed say the the AC unit will run more efficiently.

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 03:53:04 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Since the pool water is colder than the outdoor air, it could also lower
your electric bill for the AC.

Liquid cooled condensors have been in use for years, but usually commercial
applications.

My sense, is that there won't be enough return for the investment.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"DD_BobK" wrote in message
...

But, the "heat" from the AC is essentially free once the system mods
were made.
Providing a few tons (24,000 to 50,000 btu/hr) would lower your
natural gas bill.


cheers
Bob

They did indeed say the the AC unit will run more efficiently.

That's the big advantage I see. Should be "Cooling the A/C With Pool
Water." Whether it's worth the overhead is questionable..

On Dec 8, 6:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.


You may not have a pool, but I say you're on the right track.
You're right, durintg the times you are most likely to want to heat
the pool, the AC will not be running much. When the AC is running a
lot, you're not likely to need it much to warm
the pool. Here in NJ the AC is running a lot in Jul and Aug,
precisely the time you typically don't need to heat the pool.

Also take a look at the BTUs of a typical pool heater.
I have one here that is gas, 400K BTUs for a 48,000 gal
pool. You can scale that for other sizes. They don't
put 400K btu heaters in for nothing. It takes a hell of
a lot of energy to heat all that water. A 4 ton AC by
comparison is only 48,000 BTUs, an order of magnitude
smaller

And also a lot of the heat from a pool is quickly lost,
so you can't keep building it up over days.
So, if you have a couple days of putting heat into it
with the AC system, then days where it doesn't heat,
in a day it will be cooled down again. That can be
slowed by using a thermal pool cover, but that is
yet another obvious pain to put up with.

So, yeah, I'd say the whole thing is dumb and
I would not spend a nickel on it.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 8, 6:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line
runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which
is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not
get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner
would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the
system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available
for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The
one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot
days.


You may not have a pool, but I say you're on the right track.
You're right, durintg the times you are most likely to want to heat
the pool, the AC will not be running much. When the AC is running a
lot, you're not likely to need it much to warm
the pool. Here in NJ the AC is running a lot in Jul and Aug,
precisely the time you typically don't need to heat the pool.

Also take a look at the BTUs of a typical pool heater.
I have one here that is gas, 400K BTUs for a 48,000 gal
pool. You can scale that for other sizes. They don't
put 400K btu heaters in for nothing. It takes a hell of
a lot of energy to heat all that water. A 4 ton AC by
comparison is only 48,000 BTUs, an order of magnitude
smaller
================================================== ==


Wow.... 400K btu's is a lot....
This might be an idear unique to your situration, but why don't you build a
hot-air type heat exchanger for your pool, and just *talk* into it?? I'll
bet your gas bill will drop to zero, and your pool temps will climb to,
like, 110 F.....
On a particularly loquacious day, you might be able to heat your neighbors'
pools as well.....
--
EA







And also a lot of the heat from a pool is quickly lost,
so you can't keep building it up over days.
So, if you have a couple days of putting heat into it
with the AC system, then days where it doesn't heat,
in a day it will be cooled down again. That can be
slowed by using a thermal pool cover, but that is
yet another obvious pain to put up with.

So, yeah, I'd say the whole thing is dumb and
I would not spend a nickel on it.

On Dec 10, 3:54*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Dec 8, 6:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line
runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which
is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not
get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner
would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the
system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available
for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The
one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot
days.

You may not have a pool, but I say you're on the right track.
You're right, durintg the times you are most likely to want to heat
the pool, the AC will not be running much. *When the AC is running a
lot, you're not likely to need it much to warm
the pool. *Here in NJ the AC is running a lot in Jul and Aug,
precisely the time you typically don't need to heat the pool.

Also take a look at the BTUs of a typical pool heater.
I have one here that is gas, 400K BTUs for a 48,000 gal
pool. *You can scale that for other sizes. * They don't
put 400K btu heaters in for nothing. *It takes a hell of
a lot of energy to heat all that water. *A 4 ton AC by
comparison is only 48,000 BTUs, an order of magnitude
smaller
================================================== ==

Wow.... *400K btu's is a lot....
This might be an idear unique to your situration, but why don't you build a
hot-air type heat exchanger for your pool, and just *talk* into it?? *I'll
bet your gas bill will drop to zero, and your pool temps will climb to,
like, 110 F.....
On a particularly loquacious day, you might be able to heat your neighbors'
pools as well.....
--
EA


If you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you
just not post, instead of hurling insults for no reason.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 3:54 am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Dec 8, 6:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line
runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the
canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which
is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool
gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not
get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner
would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the
system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough
for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available
for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the
refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth
installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The
one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot
days.

You may not have a pool, but I say you're on the right track.
You're right, durintg the times you are most likely to want to heat
the pool, the AC will not be running much. When the AC is running a
lot, you're not likely to need it much to warm
the pool. Here in NJ the AC is running a lot in Jul and Aug,
precisely the time you typically don't need to heat the pool.

Also take a look at the BTUs of a typical pool heater.
I have one here that is gas, 400K BTUs for a 48,000 gal
pool. You can scale that for other sizes. They don't
put 400K btu heaters in for nothing. It takes a hell of
a lot of energy to heat all that water. A 4 ton AC by
comparison is only 48,000 BTUs, an order of magnitude
smaller
================================================== ==

Wow.... 400K btu's is a lot....
This might be an idear unique to your situration, but why don't you build
a
hot-air type heat exchanger for your pool, and just *talk* into it?? I'll
bet your gas bill will drop to zero, and your pool temps will climb to,
like, 110 F.....
On a particularly loquacious day, you might be able to heat your
neighbors'
pools as well.....
--
EA


If you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you
just not post, instead of hurling insults for no reason.
================================================== =========

Well, ahhh, harrumph, I would say that given the numerous *vituperative (and
humorless) insults* you've hurled at me on sundry occasions, there's quite a
bit of historical reason.....
But I just couldn't resist this one.... I'm sure there are a few viewers
buying new keyboards, as we speak.
Even you gotta 'mit, dat WAS a good insult..... My apologies to all....
LOL

Inyway, I've actually come to appreciate your dour know-it-all personna,
cuz, well, at least you DISCUSS ****, unlike those friggin prissy assholes
on rec.woodworking, whose panties are so bunched up, it must be interfering
with their collective bowel function...... goodgawd..... ahm figgerin dat
hypocrite TiredAss is such a pill cuz he has a colostomy, anyway, so he just
bunches his panties for the helluvit....
Plus it seems those assholes seem number/idea-averse.... I couldn't
believe their resistance to just talking about *ideas* re the sawstop -- so
fukn what if wood grain wadn't specifically involved..... **** them.

But hey, dats one bigazz pool you got over there..... Ahm figgering on the
order of 1600 sq ft, 40x40 or equiv....
NJ must tax you up the ass for that thing.
Cain't hide pools anymore.... municipalities now use google earth to catch
people.... hilarious....

To me, pools are like fireplaces -- great in the beginning, but what an
eventual pita I haven't used my fireplace in over 10 years.
I spose if one loves swimming, pools are OK, but even then....

Toward the end of "pool logic" -- and inevitable thread drift -- these
"continuous pools" (the water equivalent of a treadmill) seem like a good
alternative for die-hard swimmers and phys therapy/rehab, a lot less trouble
than a hyooge bonafide pool.
Heh, at least with a water treadmill, google earth won't trigger an
up-the-ass tax event.....
--
EA

On 12/8/2012 5:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.


I can see it working but, summer before last, I was trying to cool my
pool down. Now I use "Sun Sails" and cover the majority of the pool with
shade.

Nat. gas is so cheap here it doesn't seem like the savings would cover
the cost of the conversion anytime soon.

Interesting idea though, and maybe I should be watching "TOH" more.

gonjah wrote:
On 12/8/2012 5:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.


I can see it working but, summer before last, I was trying to cool my
pool down. Now I use "Sun Sails" and cover the majority of the pool with shade.

Nat. gas is so cheap here it doesn't seem like the savings would cover
the cost of the conversion anytime soon.

Interesting idea though, and maybe I should be watching "TOH" more.

Make sure you watch ATOH or the The TOH Hour. Just watching TOH won't get
you what I saw.

Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?
How long will that coil last in
chlorinated or salted water?

On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:
Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?
How long will that coil last in
chlorinated or salted water?


I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in
the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger
used for pool and marine applications. ^_^

http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000

http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:
Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?
How long will that coil last in
chlorinated or salted water?


I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in
the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger
used for pool and marine applications. ^_^

http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000

http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc

TDD

OP here...

On the show, Richard Trethewey specifically mentioned a coil and did that
circular thing with his hand around the canister. Just sayin'

On 12/9/2012 7:51 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:
Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?
How long will that coil last in
chlorinated or salted water?


I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in
the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger
used for pool and marine applications. ^_^

http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000

http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc

TDD

OP here...

On the show, Richard Trethewey specifically mentioned a coil and did that
circular thing with his hand around the canister. Just sayin'


Was it stainless steel? A lot of guys I know will call any heat
exchanger "the coil" even though the item may be in different forms
but I did not pay close enough attention to the coil in canister bit,
my bad but I'm sure the coil in canister wasn't bare copper. The flat
plate exchangers I posted the link are not made of copper but rather
stainless steel. **I found the heat exchanger you mentioned, it's not
stainless steel, it's freaking "titanium". The video link is there too!
I always use flat plate heat exchangers in the systems I work on so I
automatically think of that type. I've never used one made of titanium
and I think it's so cool(no pun). O_o

http://www.hotspotenergy.com/pool-heater/

TDD

On 12/9/2012 7:51 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:
Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?
How long will that coil last in
chlorinated or salted water?


I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in
the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger
used for pool and marine applications. ^_^

http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000

http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc

TDD

OP here...

On the show, Richard Trethewey specifically mentioned a coil and did that
circular thing with his hand around the canister. Just sayin'


I think this is the episode. It's the 3rd scene selection:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tv/a...652494,00.html

Titanium.

FWIW: My pool heaters heat exchangers are copper.

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:15:43 AM UTC-8, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:

Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?

How long will that coil last in

chlorinated or salted water?





I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in

the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger

used for pool and marine applications. ^_^



http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000



http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc



TDD

Not all heate exchanger are created equal:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/61...lar_Water.html

On 12/9/2012 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:15:43 AM UTC-8, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:

Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?

How long will that coil last in

chlorinated or salted water?





I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in

the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger

used for pool and marine applications. ^_^



http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000



http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc



TDD

Not all heate exchanger are created equal:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/61...lar_Water.html


I looked up the one Derby Dad was posting about and it turned out to be
made of titanium. ^_^

TDD

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 16:10:18 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/9/2012 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:15:43 AM UTC-8, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/8/2012 7:05 PM, wrote:

Is the refrigerant coil made of copper?

How long will that coil last in

chlorinated or salted water?





I won't call you names over it because most folks don't know what's in

the AC/pool heat exchangers. Here's a link for the type heat exchanger

used for pool and marine applications. ^_^



http://www.pexsupply.com/Marine-Swim...s-5x12-1065000



http://tinyurl.com/a7q9zbc



TDD

Not all heate exchanger are created equal:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/61...lar_Water.html


I looked up the one Derby Dad was posting about and it turned out to be
made of titanium. ^_^

TDD

The video even stated that fact.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

It's not about heating the pool, it's about the cooling the house. Air
conditiioners are heat transfer devices. They move heat from one location to the
other. Transfering heat by means of a fan to the outdoor warm air is far less
efficient than transfering it to cooler water.

Robert Neville wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

It's not about heating the pool, it's about the cooling the house. Air
conditiioners are heat transfer devices. They move heat from one location to the
other. Transfering heat by means of a fan to the outdoor warm air is far less
efficient than transfering it to cooler water.

No, it was about heating the pool. Watch the latest episode of Ask This Old
House when you get a chance. The system was installed for the sole purpose
of heating a shaded in-ground pool. It was plumbed in before the pool
filter and included a sensor that only allowed the refrigerant to flow
through the canister's coil when the pool water needed heating.

The fact that the AC would be more efficient when it was heating the pool
water is just an added bonus. If it was about cooling the house, then the
sensor would not have been installed.

The fact that

On 12/9/2012 1:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Robert Neville wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

It's not about heating the pool, it's about the cooling the house. Air
conditiioners are heat transfer devices. They move heat from one location to the
other. Transfering heat by means of a fan to the outdoor warm air is far less
efficient than transfering it to cooler water.

No, it was about heating the pool.


I just watched it and it sounds like it's both. It does make very good
sense. Apparently it's nothing new.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tv/a...652494,00.html

(3rd scene)

Thanks for posting BTW. It sure gives me something to think about.

On Dec 9, 12:27*am, Robert Neville wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

It's not about heating the pool, it's about the cooling the house. Air
conditiioners are heat transfer devices. They move heat from one location to the
other. Transfering heat by means of a fan to the outdoor warm air is far less
efficient than transfering it to cooler water.

I think those of you that think this is going to make
a substantial difference in cooling costs to the house are
barking up the wrong tree. It's true if you had the same
size condenser that you could get more cooling out of
it by using water on the condenser instead of air. But
the condenser the AC unit already has consists of a coil
and fan that are sufficient and sized so that it brings
the refrigerant temp down close to that of the outside
ambient air. It does that with an electric fan
that probably uses less energy than the pool pump
would. If you feel the pressure line where
it enters the air handler it's around room temp. A
pool in the months when you need AC is going to be
around 80F. So, you're not going to drop the
refrigerant temp any more than that by passing pool
water over it. In other words, I don't see it making
a difference.

And the suggestion to use the pool with a heat pump
to get heat in the winter is pretty much a non-starter,
IMO, too. In the climates where it would make the most
impact you have freezing temps. Pools and the existing
pool eqpt are not designed to operate in freezing conditions. I
guess you could do it in FL, but given the climate, little
need for heat, why bother? And as for heating the pool
down there, in the months when it would work, they
actually are cooling some pools because they get too
hot on their own, no?

On Dec 9, 9:32*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 9, 12:27*am, Robert Neville wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

It's not about heating the pool, it's about the cooling the house. Air
conditiioners are heat transfer devices. They move heat from one location to the
other. Transfering heat by means of a fan to the outdoor warm air is far less
efficient than transfering it to cooler water.

I think those of you that think this is going to make
a substantial difference in cooling costs to the house are
barking up the wrong tree. *It's true if you had the same
size condenser that you could get more cooling out of
it by using water on the condenser instead of air. *But
the condenser the AC unit already has consists of a coil
and fan that are sufficient and sized so that it brings
the refrigerant temp down close to that of the outside
ambient air. *It does that with an electric fan
that probably uses less energy than the pool pump
would. * If you feel the pressure line where
it enters the air handler it's around room temp. *A
pool in the months when you need AC is going to be
around 80F. * So, you're not going to drop the
refrigerant temp any more than that by passing pool
water over it. *In other words, I don't see it making
a difference.

After posting this, I realized there was one aspect
I overlooked. I compared the electricity to run the pool
pump with the electricity to run the pool pump. But
the electricity used by the pool pump can probably
be ignored because the pool pump typically runs 6 or
8 hours a day to filter the pool water anyway. So,
it can be filtering while doing the AC.

In which case, I can see the system saving basicly
whatever it took to run the fan motor on the AC
condenser. Which is something. But the whole thing
appears very impractical to me for a variety of reasons.
The biggest obstacle being the mismatch between the
periods when you need it most and when the AC is actually
running the most. For example, here in NJ, when the
heating is most useful is late May and June at the
beginning of the season and Sept to extend the season
for a few weeks. Those times the AC is not running
all that much.

On Dec 8, 11:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

Well you'd only be using the pool on warm days.
So makes perfect sense.

On Dec 9, 2:48*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 8, 11:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

Well you'd only be using the pool on warm days.
So makes perfect sense.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We can add pools to the list of subjects you obviously are
clueless about.

On 12/9/2012 8:33 AM, wrote:
On Dec 9, 2:48 am, harry wrote:
On Dec 8, 11:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

OK, that's all well and good. Efficient, free heat heat for a pool which is
shaded by trees and gets very little sun.

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Sure, there's some advantage to heating the pool on a hot day, even into
the hot night. However, on a cool day or cool evening, when the owner would
really want the pool heated, he's right back where he was before the system
was installed. Early and late in the season, when it's not hot enough for
the AC to be running for any length of time, there is no heat available for
the pool - right at the times of the season when you would want it.

Considering that it takes a certified AC tech to capture the refrigerant,
adapt the AC piping and recharge the system, is it really worth installing
one of these systems? I don't have a pool, so I don't know how cold the
water in a shaded pool would be on a day hot enough for the AC to be
running.

After a few days of cool weather, how long would would the AC have to be
running for it to heat the pool to something that would be comfortable?
Yes, I know it depends on the size of the pool and how cool it was. The one
in the show was a decent sized in ground pool. Is it a matter of a few
hours or would it take all day or longer? I know there's a number of
variables involved...just looking for some idea.

It just seems kind of bass-akwards to only have heat available on hot days.

Well you'd only be using the pool on warm days.
So makes perfect sense.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We can add pools to the list of subjects you obviously are
clueless about.


Heck, the only time I have a pool out back of my shack is when it rains.
'course we can put thick plastic in the bed of the pickup
and fill it with water. ^_^

TDD

On Dec 8, 6:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Via the AC, which is obviously woefully insufficient to heat the
standard 16x32 ±20K gallon pool.

Seems it must be a system auxiliary to a dedicated heater.
-----

- gpsman

On Dec 9, 10:21*am, gpsman wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:



Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Via the AC, which is obviously woefully insufficient to heat the
standard 16x32 ±20K gallon pool.

Seems it must be a system auxiliary to a dedicated heater.
*-----

- gpsman

No, on this TOH show it was installed as the only
heater for a pool in a shaded area. I certainly could
be used in conjuction with another pool heater though.
But still, IMO, a dumb idea. One of those being, as
you say, that the amount of heat it takes to heat a
typical inground pool vs the amount of heat available,
at the times of year you need it, does not seem to compute.

I'd love to hear a follow up report on how well it works.
Funny that they didn't do anything like that.... Like turn
it on and see how much if warms the pool over a few
days.

On Dec 9, 11:28*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 9, 10:21*am, gpsman wrote:

On Dec 8, 6:08*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Via the AC, which is obviously woefully insufficient to heat the
standard 16x32 ±20K gallon pool.

Seems it must be a system auxiliary to a dedicated heater.
*-----

- gpsman

No, on this TOH show it was installed as the only
heater for a pool in a shaded area. * I certainly could
be used in conjuction with another pool heater though.
But still, IMO, a dumb idea. *One of those being, as
you say, that the amount of heat it takes to heat a
typical inground pool vs the amount of heat available,
at the times of year you need it, does not seem to compute.

I had to view a couple minutes online to see if the pool was in
Hawaii, the online version seemed to skip that part.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2311120851/

It seems they need heat in summer, as do we. I suppose if the heat is
constantly applied day after day it might eventually provide a few
more degrees where a few more makes a big difference between too cold
and tolerable, but even that seems unlikely unless some type of super
solar blanket is used to keep all that surface area from dissipating
the heat.

I don't think that little ~2 gallon heat exchanger is going to win
that race unless the ambient air temp. is ~100F 18 hours a day falling
to 90 at night.
-----

- gpsman

On 12/9/2012 11:47 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:28 am, "
wrote:
On Dec 9, 10:21 am, gpsman wrote:

On Dec 8, 6:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Via the AC, which is obviously woefully insufficient to heat the
standard 16x32 ±20K gallon pool.

Seems it must be a system auxiliary to a dedicated heater.
-----

- gpsman

No, on this TOH show it was installed as the only
heater for a pool in a shaded area. I certainly could
be used in conjuction with another pool heater though.
But still, IMO, a dumb idea. One of those being, as
you say, that the amount of heat it takes to heat a
typical inground pool vs the amount of heat available,
at the times of year you need it, does not seem to compute.

I had to view a couple minutes online to see if the pool was in
Hawaii, the online version seemed to skip that part.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2311120851/

It seems they need heat in summer, as do we. I suppose if the heat is
constantly applied day after day it might eventually provide a few
more degrees where a few more makes a big difference between too cold
and tolerable, but even that seems unlikely unless some type of super
solar blanket is used to keep all that surface area from dissipating
the heat.

I don't think that little ~2 gallon heat exchanger is going to win
that race unless the ambient air temp. is ~100F 18 hours a day falling
to 90 at night.
-----

- gpsman


I think no matter how you view it it's going to be a real close call. I
don't know enough about HVAC to understand how it makes the AC more
efficient, but he claims it does.

With my pool, the pool plumbing is on one side of the house and the
compressor is on the other making plumbing a real problem. I'd have to
dig and make some additional input/outputs or run plumbing all the way
to the pump. Doesn't seem to make much sense in my situation. But I am
interested in lowering my AC costs. The money would probably be better
spent on additional insulation.

On Dec 9, 12:55*pm, gonjah wrote:
On 12/9/2012 11:47 AM, gpsman wrote:





On Dec 9, 11:28 am, "
wrote:
On Dec 9, 10:21 am, gpsman wrote:

On Dec 8, 6:08 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's think about this. When it's hot out, the AC is running and pool gets
heated. When it's cool out, the AC is not running, so the pool does not get
heated.

Via the AC, which is obviously woefully insufficient to heat the
standard 16x32 ±20K gallon pool.

Seems it must be a system auxiliary to a dedicated heater.
* -----

- gpsman

No, on this TOH show it was installed as the only
heater for a pool in a shaded area. * I certainly could
be used in conjuction with another pool heater though.
But still, IMO, a dumb idea. *One of those being, as
you say, that the amount of heat it takes to heat a
typical inground pool vs the amount of heat available,
at the times of year you need it, does not seem to compute.

I had to view a couple minutes online to see if the pool was in
Hawaii, the online version seemed to skip that part.
http://video.pbs.org/video/2311120851/

It seems they need heat in summer, as do we. *I suppose if the heat is
constantly applied day after day it might eventually provide a few
more degrees where a few more makes a big difference between too cold
and tolerable, but even that seems unlikely unless some type of super
solar blanket is used to keep all that surface area from dissipating
the heat.

I don't think that little ~2 gallon heat exchanger is going to win
that race unless the ambient air temp. is ~100F 18 hours a day falling
to 90 at night.
* -----

- gpsman

I think no matter how you view it it's going to be a real close call.

Close? Close to what? Nothing I've seen suggests it's
feasible for heating a pool, when and where you need to heat
a pool.


I
don't know enough about HVAC to understand how it makes the AC more
efficient, but he claims it does.

It eliminates the fan in the condenser unit, using the pool
pump instead. The pool needs to be filtered for 6 - 8 hours
a day anyway, so that pool pump electricity is already paid
for.




With my pool, the pool plumbing is on one side of the house and the
compressor is on the other making plumbing a real problem. I'd have to
dig and make some additional input/outputs or run plumbing all the way
to the pump. Doesn't seem to make much sense in my situation. But I am
interested in lowering my AC costs. The money would probably be better
spent on additional insulation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I say if it's right next to the pool eqpt, like in the video, it's
still
nuts. And what does it cost to install that thing? Unless you
DIY, you need a pool tech, an HVAC tech, and an electrician.
And then let's say the AC system isn't working right. You call
an AC tech. They have never seen anything like this. In my
experience, you're lucky enough to get one that understands
and can correctly diagnose a standard system.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 23:08:36 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

Isn't the purpose of a pool to cool off in hot weather?
What's the point in heating it?

Sounds to me like another useless gadget to steal people's money......

On 12/9/2012 6:26 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 23:08:36 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

Isn't the purpose of a pool to cool off in hot weather?
What's the point in heating it?

Sounds to me like another useless gadget to steal people's money......


Sort of. When it's hot out (90+ degrees F) some pools still only get
into the high 70's and low 80's depending on the amount of sunlight. My
pool, when it's exposed to full sun, doesn't need any help. But, if you
watch the video, he says this pool gets little sunlight. Some people
want the pool in the high 80's. In that case it might push it up a few
degrees. Plus he says it helps the AC, which would be my main concern.

Does it steal money? Maybe. I'd like to see some real stats before I
invested. Plus. Your pool pump and condenser would need to be in the
same location. That doesn't seem to be real likely unless you built your
pool and a/c accordingly. In my case, it's pretty much out-of-the-question.

On Dec 9, 7:38*pm, peace and love wrote:
On 12/9/2012 6:26 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 23:08:36 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ask This Old House showed the installation of a system that captures the
heat from the AC unit to heat a swimming pool. The AC refrigerant line runs
through a coil inside a canister. The pool water runs through the canister
and the heat is extracted.

Isn't the purpose of a pool to cool off in hot weather?
What's the point in heating it?

Sounds to me like another useless gadget to steal people's money......

Sort of. When it's hot out (90+ degrees F) some pools still only get
into the high 70's and low 80's depending on the amount of sunlight. My
pool, when it's exposed to full sun, doesn't need any help. But, if you
watch the video, he says this pool gets little sunlight. Some people
want the pool in the high 80's. In that case it might push it up a few
degrees. Plus he says it helps the AC, which would be my main concern.

Think about how it could help the AC. The current coils
and fan in the condesner are perfectly capable of taking
the heated, compressed refrigerant down to close to
ambient temperature. The pool heat exchanger is going
to do the same thing. Yeah, it's smaller because water
can take the same heat away with a smaller heat exchanger.
But, at the end of the day, all I see that's saved is the cost
of running the AC condenser fan. Don't know how much
that is in the whole AC scheme, but considering you have
a compressor, big blower in the furnace, I'd be surprised if
it's more than 15% or so.





Does it steal money? Maybe. I'd like to see some real stats before I
invested.

Me too. You would think TOH would come back a week
later to show the results.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:43:07 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


Think about how it could help the AC. The current coils
and fan in the condesner are perfectly capable of taking
the heated, compressed refrigerant down to close to
ambient temperature. The pool heat exchanger is going
to do the same thing.

"Ambient" pool water temperature normally isn't the same as ambient
air temp. A pool provides an enormous heat sink, cooling at night,
with evaporative cooling not requiring jumping through EPA hoops.
Water is thousands (WAG) of times more capable of removing heat than
air.
And "perfectly capable" doesn't address the difference in time running
to do the same job. Which gets to electrical consumption and
compresser/fan wear.


Yeah, it's smaller because water
can take the same heat away with a smaller heat exchanger.
But, at the end of the day, all I see that's saved is the cost
of running the AC condenser fan. Don't know how much
that is in the whole AC scheme, but considering you have
a compressor, big blower in the furnace, I'd be surprised if
it's more than 15% or so.

I've seen estimates that water cooled condensers give 20-50% energy
savings. It's all in the details - and climate.
In some climates people want their pools chilled.
Barring that, using pool water to cool the condenser is elegant and
efficient if the bottom line works out The main issues are initial
cost and maintenance.
Those are the nuts to crack. It all gets to payback.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:43:07 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


Think about how it could help the AC. The current coils
and fan in the condesner are perfectly capable of taking
the heated, compressed refrigerant down to close to
ambient temperature. The pool heat exchanger is going
to do the same thing.

"Ambient" pool water temperature normally isn't the same as ambient
air temp. A pool provides an enormous heat sink, cooling at night,
with evaporative cooling not requiring jumping through EPA hoops.
Water is thousands (WAG) of times more capable of removing heat than
air.
And "perfectly capable" doesn't address the difference in time running
to do the same job. Which gets to electrical consumption and
compresser/fan wear.


Yeah, it's smaller because water
can take the same heat away with a smaller heat exchanger.
But, at the end of the day, all I see that's saved is the cost
of running the AC condenser fan. Don't know how much
that is in the whole AC scheme, but considering you have
a compressor, big blower in the furnace, I'd be surprised if
it's more than 15% or so.

I've seen estimates that water cooled condensers give 20-50% energy
savings. It's all in the details - and climate.
In some climates people want their pools chilled.
Barring that, using pool water to cool the condenser is elegant and
efficient if the bottom line works out The main issues are initial
cost and maintenance.
Those are the nuts to crack. It all gets to payback.

Excellent points.
Bottom line, the pool will help the A/C MUCH more than the A/C will help
the pool.
BUT, it is proly unlikely this could be done economically, at least in a
one-off basis.

But, if A/C mfrs would outfit the condensing heat exchanger with a water
jacket, so that all's you needed was some fittings, plastic tubing and a
small-ish pump, then indeed it would be economical, and likely radically
increasing the SEER ratings.
--
EA

On Dec 10, 12:38*pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:43:07 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:

Think about how it could help the AC. *The current coils
and fan in the condesner are perfectly capable of taking
the heated, compressed refrigerant down to close to
ambient temperature. * The pool heat exchanger is going
to do the same thing.

"Ambient" pool water temperature normally isn't the same as ambient
air temp.

I never said they were. Only that they are, fairly close.
If this thing works, then it should keep the pool at 80 - 85.
That isn't all that much different than the ambient air
temps when the AC is going to be running. Sure, the pool
could be 65 in May. But then the AC isn't running or
isn't running enough to make any impact anyway.




*A pool provides an enormous heat sink, cooling at night,
with evaporative cooling not requiring jumping through EPA hoops.
Water is thousands (WAG) of times more capable of removing heat than
air.

That is reflected in the size of the CONDENSER. The
existing on is sized based on AIR. The pool water one is
sized based on using WATER. So, of course the pool
water one is much smaller. But if the temp of the refrigerant
when it leaves the condenser and returns to the evaporator
in the air handler is the same, then the only thing you've
accomplished from an energy standpoint are replacing
the fan motor with a pump motor. As previously noted,
that is a benefit as long as the pool pump would be
running to filter the water anyway.



And "perfectly capable" doesn't address the difference in time running
to do the same job. *Which gets to electrical consumption and
compresser/fan wear.

Yes it does address it, because, again, the refrigerant temp
is still going to be about the same temp when it returns to
the air handler. Whether it got to that temp by a large air
based heat exchanger or a small water based one doesn't
matter, the pool pump motor replacing the fan motor being
the essential difference.



Yeah, it's smaller because water
can take the same heat away with a smaller heat exchanger.
But, at the end of the day, all I see that's saved is the cost
of running the AC condenser fan. *Don't know how much
that is in the whole AC scheme, but considering you have
a compressor, big blower in the furnace, I'd be surprised if
it's more than 15% or so.

*I've seen estimates that water cooled condensers give 20-50% energy
savings.

Anybody can give you "estimates". I'd like to see real data
on this pool thing. And as I've said, you do get some savings.
It's due to the fact that you no longer have the fan on the
condenser running. Instead you're using the pool pump
motor, which you can assume is paid for by it having to
run for pool filtering, anyway.



*It's all in the details - and climate.
In some climates people want their pools chilled.
Barring that, using pool water to cool the condenser is elegant and
efficient if the bottom line works out *The main issues are initial
cost and maintenance.
Those are the nuts to crack. *It all gets to payback.

Do you have a pool? Pool heater? What size is the pool
and what is the pool heater in BTUs? In my world, there
is no way this computes.