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Old November 15th 12, 11:05 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

Opening windows requires more fuel at the plant, regardless of the number of
loops.

Christopher A. Young
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..

"chaniarts"
wrote in message ...
On 11/15/2012 2:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


I think I'd stick with opening and closing windows which only impact
single apartments, or even single rooms within each apartment.


multiple loops. they're not all on the same loop. your example doesn't
hold up.




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Old November 15th 12, 11:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

So let's say you and I live in the same building. Just my family and
yours for the sake of the discussion. My radiators are before yours in
the system. I decide to cover 1/2 of my radiators to keep the heat
down.

Wouldn't your apartment be hotter than before I covered my radiators?

CY:Yep.

Based on your explanation - which I am not necessarily doubting - the
water reaching your radiators would be hotter, therefore your
radiators would radiate more heat, which would mean that you would
have to cover more of your radiators than I did to maintain the same
heat, right?

CY: Yep.

Then the outside temperature goes down and I want more heat, so I
uncover 1/2 of the 1/2 I had covered. Now the water reaching your
radiators is cooler, so you need more heat for 2 reasons: 1, it's
colder outside and 2, the water reaching your radiator is cooler
because more of the heat is radiating into my apartment. Therefore you
have to uncover more of your radiator.

CY: True.

Now, extrapolate that out to 10 apartments or 50 or more. That seems
like a lot of constant covering and uncovering to maintain a
comfortable temperature in each apartment. Everytime someone makes a
change, the whole building is affected.

CY: Yes, very possible.

I think I'd stick with opening and closing windows which only impact
single apartments, or even single rooms within each apartment.

CY: If covering radiators affects other apartments, do you think that super
cooling the rads by exposing them to outdoor air will affect other
apartments? I enjoy this technical discussion, and hope we can bounce the
ideas back and forth. Pong! Coming your way....



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Old November 15th 12, 11:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair
Han Han is offline
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

Lets say you're in apartment building with a lot of units. You're in
the first apartment. You want the room colder, so you open the
window. The room now has colder air, so there is greater delta T from
the room to the radiator. The radiator loses heat faster, and cools to
a lower temp (lower room temp) so the next guy gets colder water. And,
the water going back to the heating plant is colder, also. So they use
more fuel. See? Opening windows does at least two bad things. One of
which is to cool the water that the later apartments need.


This assumes there is 1 continous loop. Highly unlikely, don't you
think? Probably the loops are for individual units, from a main central
loop. So your return (colder) water does NOT have to heat someone else's
unit. But the same reasoning for covering the radiator rather than
opening a window still holds - total heat loss is less, and so operation
is more economical.

--
Best regards
Han
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Old November 16th 12, 01:32 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

Han wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

Lets say you're in apartment building with a lot of units. You're in
the first apartment. You want the room colder, so you open the
window. The room now has colder air, so there is greater delta T from
the room to the radiator. The radiator loses heat faster, and cools to
a lower temp (lower room temp) so the next guy gets colder water. And,
the water going back to the heating plant is colder, also. So they use
more fuel. See? Opening windows does at least two bad things. One of
which is to cool the water that the later apartments need.


This assumes there is 1 continous loop. Highly unlikely, don't you
think? Probably the loops are for individual units, from a main central
loop. So your return (colder) water does NOT have to heat someone else's
unit. But the same reasoning for covering the radiator rather than
opening a window still holds - total heat loss is less, and so operation
is more economical.



So what are they missing in Siberia? Why are they still opening windows and
not issuing radiator covers to all comrades? Maybe someone in the politburo
should subscribe to usenet and start reading a.h.r.
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Old November 16th 12, 02:54 AM posted to alt.home.repair
Han Han is offline
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Han wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

Lets say you're in apartment building with a lot of units. You're in
the first apartment. You want the room colder, so you open the
window. The room now has colder air, so there is greater delta T
from the room to the radiator. The radiator loses heat faster, and
cools to a lower temp (lower room temp) so the next guy gets colder
water. And, the water going back to the heating plant is colder,
also. So they use more fuel. See? Opening windows does at least two
bad things. One of which is to cool the water that the later
apartments need.


This assumes there is 1 continous loop. Highly unlikely, don't you
think? Probably the loops are for individual units, from a main
central loop. So your return (colder) water does NOT have to heat
someone else's unit. But the same reasoning for covering the
radiator rather than opening a window still holds - total heat loss
is less, and so operation is more economical.



So what are they missing in Siberia? Why are they still opening
windows and not issuing radiator covers to all comrades? Maybe someone
in the politburo should subscribe to usenet and start reading a.h.r.


I hope you aren't literally asking me to asnwer that question grin.
Perhaps it is because such a steam(?)-powered system is very efficient
and cheap to operate (there are systems like that in other places too,
such as parts of NY City). Perhaps it is there, and the fuel is rather
cheap (Russia is an oil- and gas-exporting country, big time).

--
Best regards
Han
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Old November 16th 12, 03:48 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing


Now, extrapolate that out to 10 apartments or 50 or more. That seems
like a lot of constant covering and uncovering to maintain a
comfortable temperature in each apartment. Everytime someone makes a
change, the whole building is affected.

I think I'd stick with opening and closing windows which only impact
single apartments, or even single rooms within each apartment.


multiple loops. they're not all on the same loop. your example doesn't
hold up.


Even if they were, the example assumes (1) the tenants care about other
tenants and (2) they have half a clue about the effect of their actions.

--
Wes Groleau

“Missing a train is only painful if you run after it!”
— Nassim Nicholas Taleb

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Old November 16th 12, 10:19 AM
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Default

Simple way to prevent latches from freezing is to apply Petroleum jelly or Vaseline.
  #38   Report Post  
Old November 16th 12, 11:35 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Keeping Siberian homes from freezing

Wes Groleau wrote:
Now, extrapolate that out to 10 apartments or 50 or more. That seems
like a lot of constant covering and uncovering to maintain a
comfortable temperature in each apartment. Everytime someone makes a
change, the whole building is affected.

I think I'd stick with opening and closing windows which only impact
single apartments, or even single rooms within each apartment.


multiple loops. they're not all on the same loop. your example doesn't
hold up.


Even if they were, the example assumes (1) the tenants care about other
tenants and (2) they have half a clue about the effect of their actions.


The example makes no such assumption. It discusses nothing more than cause
and effect.


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