Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)

Gene

  #2   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,640
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:

I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?


If it was high voltage, even inside it would be required to have a
lock. In this case, code or not, it world be locked.

  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,349
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On 2012-06-09, wrote:

Anyone know anything about this?


It's complicated by local state laws. They are probably all
different. It's also bizarre cuz of onwnership.

Case in point. Back when young and communal living was common, my
wife and I shared expenses with another couple on the home we rented.
One day, the ditzy blonde of the couple declared they were not going
to pay rent, that month, like it was some kinda lifestyle choice. I
ended up having to break the lease and move out, paying some hefty
penalties. The couple decided they were NOT gonna move out and
essentially squat. The electric service was in my name. I called the
utility and told 'em to cut it off. They told me as long as there was
someone living in the house, the would not discontinue service. I
went to the house, turned off the pwr, and put a lock on the breaker
box. The utility found out and demanded I remove the lock. I told
'em not until the shut off service, which they finally did.

The whole episode was ludicrous in the extreme. The box is not the
utility company's. It's installed and owned by the homeowner. So how
come they can dictate its use. Also, they would have no problem
turning off pwr if I failed to pay the bill. Why did they insist they
couldn't turn off the power when someone was illegally using it. To
this day I despise PG&E and jerk 'em around whenever possible.

I would suggest calling the public utilities commision (PUC) in your
state. OTOH, they're no doubt in the major electric utility's pocket
and will refer you back to the utility, but it's worth a shot.
They're all lying scumsucking dirtbags of the worst sort.

nb


--
vi --the heart of evil!
Support labeling GMOs
http://www.labelgmos.org/
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,954
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?


wrote in message
...
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)

Gene


I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there
would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people
have a key or combo.

Steve


  #5   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,228
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?


"Steve B" wrote in message
...

I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
there

would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people
have a key or combo.

Steve

I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking
electrical items so no power can be applied.

At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to lock
them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the
hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON
position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on
them instead of locking some off and some on.

The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each
city.
While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the
electrical inspector department of the area you live.




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 174
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?


wrote in message
...
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)

Gene


The only code that matters is the one that has been adopted for your area.
Enforcement of that code is up to the local electrical inspector. So, call
the city or county office in your area and talk to the electrical inspector
(no charge) and ask what you should do. If you can get something printed or
written from the inspector's office on the subject, that's even better. It
would be worth your while to go to the office and talk personally if that's
possible.

Once you know what to do and complete the work, you may have to have it
inspected and there could be a charge for that -- or you may even need a
permit (not very likely) and there is sure to be a charge for that.

Anyway, work with the inspector who has probably encountered the situation
before.

Tomsic


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 4:31*am, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power
company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Gene


This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.

The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.

The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access
to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which
is connected to the fire departments dispatcher...

So yes, given the commercial occupancy access
to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor
is something the fire department will have a say over...

A lock box containing keys which open the whole
building is how a lot of those AHJ's define
"readily accessible"...
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,538
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe
the power company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 4:16*am, wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)

Gene


It sounds more like the business whose electrical service is
arranged in this manner got hosed by the contractor which
installed that particular style of enclosure given its location
and the fact that it can be tampered with...

You should look at what possible replacements you could
install which would be more tamper resistant... Installing
an accessory padlock hasp on the particular enclosure
you have now might only result in damage to the
enclosure the next time the pranksters want to play at
flipping the switch...

Is that the only means of service disconnect ?
Is the meter can located adjacent to it ?
Is the breaker panel inside main lug only or does it
have an additional means of disconnect {a main breaker)
also ?

It seems like the question to ask is why that specific
type of equipment was installed... Was it required
by the AHJ or was it just the best the contractor
who installed it could cobble together ?
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 14:53:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Jun 9, 4:31Â*am, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. Â*Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Â*Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. Â*The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg

If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. Â*The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Â*Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. Â*It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. Â*That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. Â*The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. Â*I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.

I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. Â*I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. Â*This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Â*Maybe the power
company?????

Anyone know anything about this?

One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Â*Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Â*Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. Â*At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.

Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? Â*I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)

Gene

This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.

The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.

The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access
to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which
is connected to the fire departments dispatcher...

So yes, given the commercial occupancy access
to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor
is something the fire department will have a say over...

A lock box containing keys which open the whole
building is how a lot of those AHJ's define
"readily accessible"...



And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of ****"
is ???

Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
door.

Darn thing should be INSIDE the building, for starters.
In the office building where I work every morning, both the main
transformer vault and the electrical service room, which contains a
couple smaller transformers, main disconnect, several timers and 2 sub
panels are under lock and key at all times. 2 other sub-panels are
located in the kitchen. All 4 sub-panels have key-locks on the doors,
but are not locked. This is in Canada - so could be different in the
USA.


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,103
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m:


"Steve B" wrote in message
...

I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
there

would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary
people have a key or combo.

Steve

I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking
electrical items so no power can be applied.

At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to
lock them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take
all the hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in
the ON position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when
we work on them instead of locking some off and some on.

The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in
each city.
While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in
the electrical inspector department of the area you live.




In our TEKTRONIX field service center,we had a master cutoff button in the
middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's
power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized
instrument.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 964
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500,
wrote:

I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
. . . . ,
Anyone know anything about this?
. . . . ,
Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.

This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.

The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.

The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.

From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.

Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located?
The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding
the correct citation is sometimes a problem.

For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff
outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings
(commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). And, my understanding is that the
purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an
emergency.


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22,192
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:


Anyone know anything about this?


I do know you NYM shift, regularly. On a daily basis.

What say you?
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,644
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 4:17*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote innews:WKWdndpRJNlaH07SnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@earthlink. com:







"Steve B" wrote in message
...


I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
there
would be no problem about locking it. *Just make sure the necessary
people have a key or combo.


Steve


I think you may have it backwards. *OSHA is concerned about locking
electrical items so no power can be applied.


At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. *We put hasps on them to
lock them. *Later we were told that we could not do this and to take
all the hasps off. *Seems that it is not legal to lock *a breaker in
the ON position. *We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when
we work on them instead of locking some off and some on.


The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in
each city.
While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in
the electrical inspector department of the area you live.


In our TEKTRONIX field service center,we had a master cutoff button in the
middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's
power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized
instrument.

--
Jim Yanik


we had that at my technical school, a master safety off. the room has
been reused for other things but the wood floor and that buttons box
are still there unused.....

electronics has morphed into computers, my step son is taking that
class......

good old AW Beattie tech school, now renamed career center
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,640
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:



(Are the codes available online?)


Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.

You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.


IMPORTANT NOTICES AND DISCLAIMERS CONCERNING NFPA DOCUMENTS
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY CONCERNING THE USE OF NFPA
DOCUMENTS
NFPA codes, standards, recommended practices, and guides, of which the
document contained herein is one, are developed
through a consensus standards development process approved by the
American National Standards Institute.
This process brings together volunteers representing varied viewpoints
and interests to achieve consensus on fire and
other safety issues. While the NFPA administers the process and
establishes rules to promote fairness in the development
of consensus, it does not independently test, evaluate, or verify the
accuracy of any information or the soundness
of any judgments contained in its codes and standards.



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,399
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 4:18*pm, "TomR" wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:


I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
. . . . ,
Anyone know anything about this?
. . . . ,
Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, hehttp://www..garnernc.gov/Publication...0National%20El...

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.

This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.


The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.


The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


Thanks for that answer. *I am interested in the same question as the OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.

From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. *Maybe also giving a copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
protocol. *But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.



That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
mischef and just open it and flip it off.
With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
with it.

Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
for
the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
then
I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.





  #17   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 2:53*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan









wrote:
On Jun 9, 4:31*am, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power
company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Gene


This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.


The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.


The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access
to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which
is connected to the fire departments dispatcher...


So yes, given the commercial occupancy access
to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor
is something the fire department will have a say over...


A lock box containing keys which open the whole
building is how a lot of those AHJ's define
"readily accessible"...


And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of ****"
is ???

Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
door.


You are full of **** as far as this quote:

"The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in. "

By your own quotation of the the NFPA regs your statement
of the above is bull**** as the fire department is one entity
to whom ready access to the utility cut offs is mandatory...

The NEC is one set of standards which must be complied with,
in commercial occupancies you can not get an certificate of
occupancy unless the fire department also signs off, not just
the wiring or building inspector... Having a lock on a main
disconnect or having that disconnect located in a locked
closet or room would not be "readily accessible" per NEC
nor as defined by the fire department without providing a
key which is secured in a fire department only accessible
lock box...

So it seems that any proposed solution which does not
need both the NFPA criteria as well as the NEC (or whatever
local electrical code being enforced) for being "readily
accessible" would not pass muster which includes any
ideas which leave the fire department wanting for a key to
the main shut offs of any utility...
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 4:18*pm, "TomR" wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:


I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
. . . . ,
Anyone know anything about this?
. . . . ,
Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, hehttp://www..garnernc.gov/Publication...0National%20El...

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.

This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
key.


The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in.


The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."


Thanks for that answer. *I am interested in the same question as the OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.

From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. *Maybe also giving a copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
protocol. *But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.

Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located?
The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding
the correct citation is sometimes a problem.

For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff
outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings
(commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). *And, my understanding is that the
purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an
emergency.


What I said was, the contractor who located the main service
disconnect outside should have used a more hardened
enclosure... Anything made of plastic and exposed outside
is not of a durable construction...

Also as to the local requirements to have a means of disconnect
located outside, does that requirement actually require the main
over current protection device to be that means of disconnect or
would a properly sized and rated weather tight NEMA safety switch
in the line between the meter can and the main panel also fulfill
that provision of an exterior means of shut off...
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,954
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
m...

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
there

would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary
people have a key or combo.

Steve

I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking
electrical items so no power can be applied.

At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to
lock them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all
the hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON
position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on
them instead of locking some off and some on.

The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in
each city.
While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the
electrical inspector department of the area you live.


The procedure is the same, whether you want to leave the power on, or make
sure it cannot be turned on during maintenance, either of which might cause
injury or damage. I was an associate degree safety engineer, and understand
the principle.

Steve


  #20   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,954
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?


"HeyBub" wrote

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can
buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.

Steve




  #21   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,589
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


You're nutz!
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,538
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

Evan wrote:

Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.

Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.

A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.

About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.

A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.


  #24   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,399
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 11:09*am, Evan wrote:
On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:





wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Now what total BS. Who should I believe, Evan or my lying eyes?
I've been there when a fire department responded to a house on fire.
Watched one of the crew members take an axe, break the electric
meter seal and pry the meter out. It came crashing to the ground.

That's what real men do. And why not? It's safe and easy to
do. If they followed Evans armchair advice, there would be a lot of
houses burned to the ground, waiting for the power company to
arrive. And what good would the disconnect in a typical house
do anyway? The vast majority of them are inside the burning
house. Firemen supposed to go inside to turn it off?
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 964
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:
Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the
OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main
cutoff. . . . ,

Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is
located? The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome
to use so finding the correct citation is sometimes a problem.


Access to the service disconnect is in 230.70(A)(1)
"(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means
shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of
a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors."

Readily accessible is defined in article 100

"Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached
quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those
to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or
to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."


Thanks. That really helped and I was able to go right to those sections.

Since Ed showed me how I can do a cut and paste from the NEC, here is a cut
and paste of some of the sections:

===
Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close

approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other

effective means.



Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of

being removed or exposed without damaging the building

structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure

or finish of the building.



Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being

reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections

without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite

to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable

ladders, and so forth.



230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all

conductors in a building or other structure from the service entrance

conductors.



(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be

installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and

(A)(3).



(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting

means shall be installed at a readily accessible location

either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the

point of entrance of the service conductors.



(2) Bathrooms. Service disconnecting means shall not be

installed in bathrooms.



(3) Remote Control. Where a remote control device(s) is

used to actuate the service disconnecting means, the service

disconnecting means shall be located in accordance with

230.70(A)(1).

===

One thing that I thought was interesting is the first definition of
"Accessible (as applied to equipment)" which is,

"Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other

effective means."



I wonder if that throws a slight curve into to question of whether the
service panel door can be locked -- under the meaning of "not guarded by
locked doors".



I still think that putting a small padlock on the outside main service
disconnect would be okay (with the building tenants, the fire department,
etc. having a key), but I am not 100% positive about that yet.




  #26   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 964
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

(Are the codes available online?)


Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to
set up a free account or log in.


You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.


Thanks for pointing that out. That worked. I know that the free version
that is on the NFPA.org website doesn't allow cut and paste etc. I think
the only reason that they post a free read-only version is to comply with a
legal decision that stated that if they are going to create regulations that
apply to the public (if adopted by local governmental entities), they have
to make them available for free.

But, I guess that since the link that I posted is from the Garner, North
Carolina government website, they decided that they are entitled to post a
pdf copy the regulations that they adopted (2008 NEC) and make it both free
and able to be cut-and-pasted, printed, etc.

I ran into a similar problem recently when I was trying to cut and past a
page from the 2006 International Residential Code. The only free version
that I could find online was one that would not permit a cut and paste.




  #27   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,016
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote

A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can
buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.

Steve


Don't they pop the meters if needed?

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 964
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

wrote:
On Jun 9, 4:18 pm, "TomR" wrote:
. . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.

From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a
copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the
appropriate
protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments
carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the
event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.


That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
mischef and just open it and flip it off.
With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
with it.

Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
for
the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
then
I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.


Interesting. I had not thought about the option of the fire department
pulling the meter to cut the power.

One reason that I am interested in this topic is that I have two properties
in the same town that I bought a few years ago. One is a 2-family duplex
with all separate utilities for each tenant and the other is a 3-family
triplex with all separate utilities for each tenant. After buying each one,
I had new electric service installed in both properties.

I had the 2-family duplex done first. For that one, which already had a
separate service panel in the basement for each tenant, the question came up
about whether both tenants had access to the basement. The electrician
explained that with new service being installed, the code required that each
tenant have access to their own service panel and the main service
disconnect. Since both tenants have access to the basement (and the service
panels) -- meaning they each have a key to the basement -- it was okay for
both service panels and main disconnects to be in the basement. As part of
the new service upgrade, the electric meters for each unit were moved to the
outside and mounted on the front wall of the property.

From the NEC citation that gfretwell posted I found this that refers to that
requirement:

230.70 (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building,

each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service

disconnecting means.


Then, when I had new service installed in the 3-family triplex, I already
had service panels and a main disconnect in each of the three tenants'
apartments. With the new service, I was also adding a separate "house"
panel for the outside lighting etc. And, as before, I was having the
electric meters moved to the outside of the building where each service
entered the building. But, this time, because the property had 3 or more
dwelling units, the local officials required that the 3 tenant services and
1 house service each have an outside main service disconnect. And, in my
case, each of the 4 main service disconnects on the outside of the building
look similar to what the OP has on his building.

My original plan was for the main service disconnects to be inside the
building, right where each service came in, but inside a utility room that
only the property owner (me) could access with a key. Then, in each
apartment, they would each have their own existing service panel (actually a
subpanel), each with its own main cutoff breaker. But, that wasn't okay
with the local code officials, so all 4 main service disconnects are now on
the outside of the building.

I understand why they have that requirement (fire department and other
emergency shutoff capability etc), but it made me a little uncomfortable
since anyone walking by could (and still can) turn off the power to any or
all apartments at any time. All that I have on each outside service
disconnect box now is a short twisted piece of 12 gauge wire holding each
box closed (where a padlock could go). Seems a little strange to me, but
that's how it is. And, it has been 2 years of so since they were installed
and no one has bothered to tamper with the boxes since then. Nevertheless,
I am curious if it really would be okay for me to put small padlocks on each
one -- if any problems with tampering do seem to start up.


  #29   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

. . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.

From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a
copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the
appropriate
protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments
carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the
event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.


That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
mischef and just open it and flip it off.
With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
with it.

Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
for
the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
then
I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.


Interesting. I had not thought about the option of the fire department
pulling the meter to cut the power.

One reason that I am interested in this topic is that I have two
properties in the same town that I bought a few years ago. One is a
2-family duplex with all separate utilities for each tenant and the other
is a 3-family triplex with all separate utilities for each tenant. After
buying each one, I had new electric service installed in both properties.

I had the 2-family duplex done first. For that one, which already had a
separate service panel in the basement for each tenant, the question came
up about whether both tenants had access to the basement. The electrician
explained that with new service being installed, the code required that
each tenant have access to their own service panel and the main service
disconnect. Since both tenants have access to the basement (and the
service panels) -- meaning they each have a key to the basement -- it was
okay for both service panels and main disconnects to be in the basement.
As part of the new service upgrade, the electric meters for each unit were
moved to the outside and mounted on the front wall of the property.

From the NEC citation that gfretwell posted I found this that refers to
that requirement:

230.70 (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building,

each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service

disconnecting means.


Then, when I had new service installed in the 3-family triplex, I already
had service panels and a main disconnect in each of the three tenants'
apartments. With the new service, I was also adding a separate "house"
panel for the outside lighting etc. And, as before, I was having the
electric meters moved to the outside of the building where each service
entered the building. But, this time, because the property had 3 or more
dwelling units, the local officials required that the 3 tenant services
and 1 house service each have an outside main service disconnect. And, in
my case, each of the 4 main service disconnects on the outside of the
building look similar to what the OP has on his building.

My original plan was for the main service disconnects to be inside the
building, right where each service came in, but inside a utility room that
only the property owner (me) could access with a key. Then, in each
apartment, they would each have their own existing service panel (actually
a subpanel), each with its own main cutoff breaker. But, that wasn't okay
with the local code officials, so all 4 main service disconnects are now
on the outside of the building.

I understand why they have that requirement (fire department and other
emergency shutoff capability etc), but it made me a little uncomfortable
since anyone walking by could (and still can) turn off the power to any or
all apartments at any time. All that I have on each outside service
disconnect box now is a short twisted piece of 12 gauge wire holding each
box closed (where a padlock could go). Seems a little strange to me, but
that's how it is. And, it has been 2 years of so since they were
installed and no one has bothered to tamper with the boxes since then.
Nevertheless, I am curious if it really would be okay for me to put small
padlocks on each one -- if any problems with tampering do seem to start
up.




*You can go ahead and put padlocks on the outside disconnects as long as
each tenant will receive a key. There are special padlocks that are made to
be cut with a bolt cutter that I have seen on fire sprinkler valves and
fence gates to electrical equipment. The locks have a notch cut into them
making it easier to cut. I think McMaster-Carr sells them.

  #30   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,399
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 12:29*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
*"Steve B" wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can
buy. *They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.


Steve


Don't they pop the meters if needed?


Exactly. The disconnect is most often inside the
burning building. The meter usually isn't. Break the
seal, pull the meter.




  #31   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote:
On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:









wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


Evan-

It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR!

If nothing else you provide comic relief.

I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up
close.
They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general.

It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left
unattended.
My money is on them not waiting for a key.

That's probably why they study & practice forceable
entry ..........with a side order of "how to defeat padlocks".

http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf (~180 pages of
forceable entry techniques)
http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf

Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
a bit smarter.

I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
result of serious effort (or injury)



  #32   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.

Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.

A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.

About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.

A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.


Umm... Yeah they will, if the electrical connections
in question are before that means of disconnect...

You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills...

Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet,
the power is cut off by calling the power company
to kill the street...

Fire departments have to wait for the power company
all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards
due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...

If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
they are quite content to water it down from outside
the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
structures and let it burn itself out...
  #33   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 12:07*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 10, 11:09*am, Evan wrote:









On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:


wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Now what total BS. *Who should I believe, Evan or my lying eyes?
I've been there when a fire department responded to a house on fire.
Watched one of the crew members take an axe, break the electric
meter seal and pry the meter out. *It came crashing to the ground.

That's what real men do. *And why not? *It's safe and easy to
do. *If they followed Evans armchair advice, there would be a lot of
houses burned to the ground, waiting for the power company to
arrive. *And what good would the disconnect in a typical house
do anyway? *The vast majority of them are inside the burning
house. *Firemen supposed to go inside to turn it off?


LOL... You want your fire department people playing
around like that ? I guess you want your tax money
going to fund the 100% disability pensions of those
injured on duty doing stupid things in non-OSHA
approved ways which would earn the doers a
Darwin Award with clusters...

  #34   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,106
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 10:11*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote:









On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:


wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


Evan-

It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR!

If nothing else you provide comic relief.

I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up
close.
They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general.

It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left
unattended.
My money is on them not waiting for a key.

That's probably why they study & practice forceable
entry ..........with a side order of *"how to defeat padlocks".

http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf* *(~180 pages of
forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf

Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
a bit smarter.

I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
result of serious effort (or injury)


@DD_BobK:

You are the pot calling the kettle black...

Biggest twit on here in a while...

Fire Departments are under no obligation to
aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the
building is unsafe because of an electrical
hazard, they can still put water on the flames
through the window and door openings and/or
douse closely abutting structures to prevent
spread of the flames...

Spend some time learning about arc flash
and other industrial accidents... Even a
small one can permanently disable or kill
you...
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,589
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:

Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.

Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.

A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.

About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.

A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.


Umm... Yeah they will, if the electrical connections
in question are before that means of disconnect...


Have you ever heard of a meter?

You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills...

Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet,
the power is cut off by calling the power company
to kill the street...


What if the main switch is in the (locked) basement?

Fire departments have to wait for the power company
all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards
due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...

If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
they are quite content to water it down from outside
the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
structures and let it burn itself out...


Try talking about something you know something about, if you can.


  #36   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 8:11*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jun 10, 10:11*pm, DD_BobK wrote:









On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote:


On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:


wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg


If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the
box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the
rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but
the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off
the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of
electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business
owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she
just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can
be done, and will install something if possible.


I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with
pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any
sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the
Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question
what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe
the power company?????


Anyone know anything about this?


One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just
use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it
off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they
need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a
cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily
cut in an emergency.


Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage
a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


Evan-


It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR!


If nothing else you provide comic relief.


I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up
close.
They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general.


It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left
unattended.
My money is on them not waiting for a key.


That's probably why they study & practice forceable
entry ..........with a side order of *"how to defeat padlocks".


http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf**(~180 pages of
forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf


Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
a bit smarter.


I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
result of serious effort (or injury)


@DD_BobK:

You are the pot calling the kettle black...

Biggest twit on here in a while...

Fire Departments are under no obligation to
aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the
building is unsafe because of an electrical
hazard, they can still put water on the flames
through the window and door openings and/or
douse closely abutting structures to prevent
spread of the flames...

Spend some time learning about arc flash
and other industrial accidents... *Even a
small one can permanently disable or kill
you...


Evan-

You are the most dangerous type of contributor to AHR....
you have no idea when you;re out of your depth.

Which, based on your posting, is most of the time.



  #37   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 8:02*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote:









Evan wrote:


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.


Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.


A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.


About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.


A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.


Umm... *Yeah they will, if the electrical connections
in question are before that means of disconnect...

You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
service feeder wires... *That sort of stuff kills...

Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
hazards... *If the main switch is locked or wet,
the power is cut off by calling the power company
to kill the street...

Fire departments have to wait for the power company
all the time... *Especially when dealing with hazards
due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...

If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
they are quite content to water it down from outside
the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
structures and let it burn itself out...


the conditions are changing?

First it was a simple padlock on a panel that could be dealt with in
seconds,
now it's downed power lines?

If you're wrong in the initial discussion, change it to something that
might fit your point of view?




  #38   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:23:36 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

(Are the codes available online?)

Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf

It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to
set up a free account or log in.


You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.


Thanks for pointing that out. That worked. I know that the free version
that is on the NFPA.org website doesn't allow cut and paste etc. I think
the only reason that they post a free read-only version is to comply with
a
legal decision that stated that if they are going to create regulations
that
apply to the public (if adopted by local governmental entities), they have
to make them available for free.

But, I guess that since the link that I posted is from the Garner, North
Carolina government website, they decided that they are entitled to post a
pdf copy the regulations that they adopted (2008 NEC) and make it both
free
and able to be cut-and-pasted, printed, etc.

I ran into a similar problem recently when I was trying to cut and past a
page from the 2006 International Residential Code. The only free version
that I could find online was one that would not permit a cut and paste.


Did you look here

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/

Plug in your state.


Thanks. I did find that before at
http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support..._main.html,but I can only do a read-only of the document, no cut-and-paste, no printingcopies of pages, etc.
  #40   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,644
Default Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?

On Jun 10, 11:53*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:





On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote:


Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.


A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.


Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever
comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...


If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.


Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.


A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.


About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.


A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.


Umm... *Yeah they will, if the electrical connections
in question are before that means of disconnect...


Have you ever heard of a meter?

You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
service feeder wires... *That sort of stuff kills...


Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
hazards... *If the main switch is locked or wet,
the power is cut off by calling the power company
to kill the street...


What if the main switch is in the (locked) basement?

Fire departments have to wait for the power company
all the time... *Especially when dealing with hazards
due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...


If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
they are quite content to water it down from outside
the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
structures and let it burn itself out...


Try talking about something you know something about, if you can.


A friend had a bad home fire.

Firefiters cut the service drop lines at the side of the house with
something resembling a pole pruner. this report from my friends. who
had the fire
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's the largest Main Breaker available? [email protected] Home Repair 26 April 17th 12 07:23 AM
How is the main breaker different? Aaron Fude Home Repair 11 September 22nd 09 01:33 PM
Main breaker location WhiteTea77581 Home Repair 24 July 6th 09 04:04 AM
200 amp main panel with 100 amp breaker [email protected] Home Repair 32 June 1st 08 07:46 AM
200 amp main cabinet with 100 amp main breaker? [email protected] Home Repair 14 March 28th 06 06:26 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"