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Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, philo wrote:
Another thing that is bothering me is that when I was cleaning the oven yesterday with the easy-off, I laid a wet rag on top of the oven element (oven switch was off of course) which was cold and it popped (a short) tripping the breaker too. That's all the info I needed to hear, there is a *definite* problem and you need to get it fixed at once or someone may get electrocuted. Since you are not familiar with troubleshooting you need to hire someone to check the range and your circuit! Serious stuff here! I agree for sure. Monday is a workday unlike today. I plan to put a test meter on the element to see what I see. Then I will remove the circuit breaker box cover so I can look at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
philo wrote:
On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device Paul |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On 5/7/2012 12:21 AM, Paul wrote:
.... To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. .... I'm thinking that (the rag) was coincidental to whatever actually caused the breaker to trip unless there's a bare connection or somesuch that it jarred to ground to the range body which is at ground... -- |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 7, 1:29*am, dpb wrote:
On 5/7/2012 12:21 AM, Paul wrote: ... To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Not in the USA NEC, that's for sure. Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Not in any range I've ever heard of. It would just be another expense, so why would they do it? And even if there were, then that GFCI would be tripping, not the panel breaker, which is what happened. Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. ... I'm thinking that (the rag) was coincidental to whatever actually caused the breaker to trip unless there's a bare connection or somesuch that it jarred to ground to the range body which is at ground... -- Agree. The odd thing here is that a heating element with the oven shut off would have power on it at all. I guess it's possible they only switch one side of the 240V. In that case, a short to ground would result in a 120V path. If that is the scenario, then the wet rag could have completed a short that was partial to begin with. As could the extra high heat from the clean cycle. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On 05/07/2012 07:58 AM, wrote:
On May 7, 1:29 am, wrote: On 5/7/2012 12:21 AM, Paul wrote: ... To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Not in the USA NEC, that's for sure. Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Not in any range I've ever heard of. It would just be another expense, so why would they do it? And even if there were, then that GFCI would be tripping, not the panel breaker, which is what happened. Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. ... I'm thinking that (the rag) was coincidental to whatever actually caused the breaker to trip unless there's a bare connection or somesuch that it jarred to ground to the range body which is at ground... -- Agree. The odd thing here is that a heating element with the oven shut off would have power on it at all. I guess it's possible they only switch one side of the 240V. In that case, a short to ground would result in a 120V path. If that is the scenario, then the wet rag could have completed a short that was partial to begin with. As could the extra high heat from the clean cycle. Bottom line: the OP needs to get it fixed and by someone who knows what they are doing. Even 115 volts can be fatal! -- https://www.createspace.com/3707686 |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
"Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. Something that puzzles me is that the stove's fuses haven't popped. The only difference between self-cleaning and normal operation is that the oven elements are on continuously for an extended period. The oven (bottom) and broiler (top) elements altermate during the self-cleaning. The OP's breaker trips at ten minutes, but in normal usage the oven elements could be on for up to 15 minutes continuously to reach operating temperature. Also, during self-cleaning the top burners are usually disabled, so the electrical load should be no more than normal oven usage. There's something else going on here which will require checking of the entire circuit from stove to panel bus connections. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 8, 2:06*pm, "Ian D" wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. And I would bet that's most of them. Something that puzzles me is that the stove's fuses haven't popped. The only difference between self-cleaning and normal operation is that the oven elements are on continuously for an extended period. The oven (bottom) and broiler (top) elements altermate during the self-cleaning. The OP's breaker trips at ten minutes, but in normal usage the oven elements could be on for up to 15 minutes continuously to reach operating temperature. Also, during self-cleaning the top burners are usually disabled, so the electrical load should be no more than normal oven usage. There's something else going on here which will require checking of the entire circuit from stove to panel bus connections.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On May 8, 2:06*pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. Try the above paragraph again. ;-) |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 14, 8:32*pm, Paul wrote:
wrote: On May 8, 11:26 pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. *If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. *And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. *Try the above paragraph again. *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. In my experience, the oven uses "two hots", for a total of 230V across the element. Exactly. Which makes the self-cleaning oven we're talking about a 240V appliance. The stove top elements are between hot and neutral, for 115V. And on the stove I used to work on back home, the stove elements draw 750W or 1500W. So they don't need more than 115V to do that, for the stove top. I don't know about your stove, but I can show you wiring diagrams for stoves that show the stovetop heating elements connected across 240V. The ones I've dealt with have used 240V. They only use 120V for lights, indicators, timer motors, etc. Since 240V is available, what exactly is the point to using only 120V? You can get the same power with half the current, which is always a good thing because you have less loss in the wiring. The two hots would be 180 degrees out of phase, which is why the "voltages add". If the "hot to neutral" is X, the "hot to hot" is 2X. The term they use here is "legs" rather than "phases" (so as not to confuse with 3-phase industrial power). No disagreement there. The part I disagree with was the claim from Ian that a stove is basicly a 120 volt device. That's wrong and apparently you agree because you say the oven elements are 240V. I know many of the stove top elements are too. I'll even bet most of them are. If you have a wiring diagram online that shows a stove wired with 120V elements for the cooktop, I'd be happy to see it. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On Wed, 9 May 2012 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On May 8, 11:26*pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06*pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. *If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. *And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. *Try the above paragraph again. *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. You're right, he was OK until "All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral". There is only 120V (to ground) at any point, though. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On Mon, 14 May 2012 20:32:42 -0400, Paul wrote:
wrote: On May 8, 11:26 pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. Try the above paragraph again. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. In my experience, the oven uses "two hots", for a total of 230V across the element. The stove top elements are between hot and neutral, for 115V. And on the stove I used to work on back home, the stove elements draw 750W or 1500W. So they don't need more than 115V to do that, for the stove top. I've never seen such a setup. The stoves I've seen have only a clock, or controls run off 120V. All heating elements are 240V. The two hots would be 180 degrees out of phase, which is why the "voltages add". If the "hot to neutral" is X, the "hot to hot" is 2X. The term they use here is "legs" rather than "phases" (so as not to confuse with 3-phase industrial power). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase Paul |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 14, 11:06*pm, "
wrote: On Mon, 14 May 2012 20:32:42 -0400, Paul wrote: wrote: On May 8, 11:26 pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. *If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. *And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. *Try the above paragraph again. *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. In my experience, the oven uses "two hots", for a total of 230V across the element. The stove top elements are between hot and neutral, for 115V. And on the stove I used to work on back home, the stove elements draw 750W or 1500W.. So they don't need more than 115V to do that, for the stove top. I've never seen such a setup. *The stoves I've seen have only a clock, or controls run off 120V. *All heating elements are 240V. Thanks. I was beginning to feel lonely here. I'm not sure there isn't a stove somewhere with a stovetop heating element that runs off 120V. But I haven't seen one. They've had 240V heating elements. I'd like to see a schematic for one of these 120V element stoves. Shouldn't be hard to do if they are out there and common. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
wrote:
No disagreement there. The part I disagree with was the claim from Ian that a stove is basicly a 120 volt device. That's wrong and apparently you agree because you say the oven elements are 240V. I know many of the stove top elements are too. I'll even bet most of them are. If you have a wiring diagram online that shows a stove wired with 120V elements for the cooktop, I'd be happy to see it. The proof would also be in the plug and outlet on the wall for it. Modern wiring jobs seem to use a plug and outlet. Probably the same kind used on the full-sized clothes dryer - with four pins on it. Something like the ones on the middle-right here. The green pin would be safety ground, leaving two hots and a neutral. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ified_pins.svg My stove back home, was permanently wired to the house. There was a jacketed cable connected to it. I never inspected where that connected in the back, as I never had to pull it out from the wall. Any time I needed to work on it, my work was limited to the "tilt down head section". Plus the terminal blocks on the stove elements, or the wiring in the oven where the broiler and oven elements were (top and bottom). The top broiler element, was for making grilled cheese sandwiches :-) Yummm... That stove didn't have self-cleaning, and had baked enamel finish (for your Easy-Off treatment). I was always impressed by the Cal-Rod elements in that thing, for the punishment they could take. And never a "short" to the exterior of them. No electric shock through any pots etc. I probably should have sawed one in half, to see how it was constructed. I guess with Wiki, you never need to saw stuff in half. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calrod "Tubular (sealed element, often known by the trademark "Calrod"): a fine coil of Nickel chrome wire in a ceramic insulating binder (MgO, alumina powder), sealed inside a tube made of stainless steel or brass. These can be a straight rod (as in toaster ovens) or curved to span an area to be heated (such as in electric stoves, ovens, and coffee makers)." So there was ceramic inside it. Paul |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 11:26 pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. Try the above paragraph again. ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. You're right, he was OK until "All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral". There is only 120V (to ground) at any point, though. I was able to find some stove top elements, which are 240 volt and some 120 volt. It could very well be that our old stove had 240 volt elements. I was only swapping like for like, so wasn't in need of substitution information. Here are some 120V ones. http://www.prontotech.com/shop/calrod-heating-element We also had a small rangette, which had 120V wiring and could be unplugged. And it had Calrod style elements as well. Only that received so little use, it didn't need maintenance. It also had limitations on what elements would run at full power (as the 120 wiring wouldn't allow you to do much more than boil one kettle). It could be, if you turned on two elements, they ran at half-power (maybe enough to keep something warm). The other (main) stove didn't have any usage restrictions. If making a Christmas dinner, virtually every heating element was turned on the thing :-) Paul |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 15, 12:55*am, Paul wrote:
wrote: No disagreement there. *The part I disagree with was the claim from Ian that a stove is basicly a 120 volt device. That's wrong and apparently you agree because you say the oven elements are 240V. * I know many of the stove top elements are too. *I'll even bet most of them are. If you have a wiring diagram online that shows a stove wired with 120V elements for the cooktop, I'd be happy to see it. The proof would also be in the plug and outlet on the wall for it. The plug isn't going to prove what the two of you claim. One guy claims all the oven elements are 120V. And you claim the stove top elements are 120V. All new stoves that I've seen have a connection that consists of two hots, a neutral and ground. With that you can support 240V and 120V. In my experience, the heating elements have always been 240V and the 120V is used for light bulbs, indicator lights, timer clock motors in older units, etc. The way to prove it would be to find a wiring schematic for a range that shows the heating elements connected to 120V. Modern wiring jobs seem to use a plug and outlet. Not in the new Kitchenaid oven I just installed. It was direct wire. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 15, 1:29*am, Paul wrote:
wrote: On Wed, 9 May 2012 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 11:26 pm, " wrote: On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Ian D" wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... philo wrote: On 05/06/2012 06:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 06 May 2012 16:01:37 -0500, *wrote: ook at the breaker as well as check the tightness of the breaker's screws and the condition of the wire contacts involved. *I know how to do that, and know how to change a breaker, but I might still bring in an electrician just to be sure all is okay. *As I said, my wife is disabled, with dementia, and I don't have the time any more to handle things like this, and certainly need to *worry about how this could affect her. We cooked a meal tonight in the oven, and it went okay. xiexie Wei If putting a wet rag on an element caused the breaker to blow, the problem is in the range itself To trip on that kind of load, there'd almost have to be a ground fault detector in the system somewhere. I doubt you could push 15 or 20 amps through a wet rag, and pop a regular breaker on current. But something like a GFCI, is would make milliamps to trip one of those. Do they use something like that now (as code) ? Would there be ground fault detection in the range itself ? Sounds pretty weird. A regular breaker shouldn't be that easy to trip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device * Paul Even that shouldn't happen. The heating element is ceramic with the heating wire running through the core, so it's surface is totally insulated. Although it's connected across 240v, a stove is basically a 120v device. With 240V across the heating elements, a stove is *not* a 120V device. *If it is then so is a water heater, a dryer and anything else that runs off 240V The clocks (and any electronics) are often run off 120V, though I think what he means is that no point of the (NA) stove is more than 120V from ground. The panel breaker assembly has two 120v breakers, one to each 120v bus. All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral. I'll bet you I can find ovens where the heating elements are 240V and connected directly across the 240V. *And I would bet that's most of them. I don't think you're reading this the way he wrote it. *Try the above paragraph again. *;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I read it again and he's saying that the heating elements in all ovens are 120V, not 240V and that they are actually connected from one hot to neutral. I believe that is not true, ie if you put a volt meter across most oven elements you're going to read 240V. You're right, he was OK until "All stove elements are 120v, and wired so that in normal use the load is equalized from each 120v bus to neutral". *There is only 120V (to ground) at any point, though. I was able to find some stove top elements, which are 240 volt and some 120 volt. It could very well be that our old stove had 240 volt elements. I was only swapping like for like, so wasn't in need of substitution information. Here are some 120V ones. http://www.prontotech.com/shop/calrod-heating-element Those sure don't look like a stovetop heating element, now do they? The issue was NOT whether 120V heating elements of any type exist. We all know they do. The question was whether there are any ovens or stove cooktop heating elements of that type. The picture shows straight heating elements that are about 800Watts. We also had a small rangette, which had 120V wiring and could be unplugged. And it had Calrod style elements as well. Only that received so little use, it didn't need maintenance. It also had limitations on what elements would run at full power (as the 120 wiring wouldn't allow you to do much more than boil one kettle). Which of course is a lot different than a built-in self-cleaning oven. I'm not surprised to find 120V elements there, since it plugs into a 120V socket. It could be, if you turned on two elements, they ran at half-power (maybe enough to keep something warm). The other (main) stove didn't have any usage restrictions. If making a Christmas dinner, virtually every heating element was turned on the thing :-) * *Paul- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
Get a pen an paper. Unplug it, then plug it right back in. It MAY display
an error code. The packet with the error codes is taped on the side of the oven, so you may have to take out a couple of screws to get to that and see what the error code says. Most times, it is the door interlock. Steve |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
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Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On May 15, 8:48*pm, Bob wrote:
On 5/14/2012 20:40, wrote: ... *I'm not sure there isn't a stove somewhere with a stovetop heating element that runs off 120V. *But I haven't seen one. *They've had 240V heating elements. *I'd like to see a schematic for one of these 120V element stoves. *Shouldn't be hard to do if they are out there and common. Prior to the modern cooktops with infinite heat levels accomplished by time cycling power to the coils, variable heat levels were accomplished by powering coils at 120 or 240 volts. *The GE 5-speed scheme used two coils on each unit powered as follows: Hi - both elements 240v parallel 2 *- one element 240v 3 *- both elements 240v series Lo - one element 120v Wm - both elements 120v series -- That's interesting. Out of curiousity, how long ago are you talking about? It seems to me the method of using a simple switch that cycles the power on and off to control the amount of heat has been around since at least the 60s, no? And the GE method still has the range using both 240V and 120V to heat. The two assertions being made that I disagreed with were that all ovens use 120V elements and stovetops use 120V elements. |
Self-Clean Range Will Not Work
On Wed, 16 May 2012 06:59:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On May 15, 8:48*pm, Bob wrote: On 5/14/2012 20:40, wrote: ... *I'm not sure there isn't a stove somewhere with a stovetop heating element that runs off 120V. *But I haven't seen one. *They've had 240V heating elements. *I'd like to see a schematic for one of these 120V element stoves. *Shouldn't be hard to do if they are out there and common. Prior to the modern cooktops with infinite heat levels accomplished by time cycling power to the coils, variable heat levels were accomplished by powering coils at 120 or 240 volts. *The GE 5-speed scheme used two coils on each unit powered as follows: Hi - both elements 240v parallel 2 *- one element 240v 3 *- both elements 240v series Lo - one element 120v Wm - both elements 120v series -- That's interesting. Out of curiousity, how long ago are you talking about? It seems to me the method of using a simple switch that cycles the power on and off to control the amount of heat has been around since at least the 60s, no? Way back in the early 50s I used a Simmerstat to control a laboratory furnace. And it wasn't cutting edge then. -- Terry V. |
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