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Mikepier December 30th 11 01:51 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.

How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.

Bob_Villa December 30th 11 01:58 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 6:51*am, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.

How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


Depending on the rust isolation...I would opt for a self-treading
screw and silicone automotive gasket sealer.

bob haller December 30th 11 03:02 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
plan on replacing the pipe, if the boilwer is older it migh save a lot
of money by upgrading to a new more efficent one

Mikepier December 30th 11 03:34 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in
grey color.

http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm

Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot
older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a
union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to
disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2"
steel piping.

harry December 30th 11 04:38 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.

How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet
gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose
clip/jubilee clip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg

However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced.
The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the
water treatment in the boiler.

Mikepier December 30th 11 06:09 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 10:38*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote:

Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.


How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet
gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose
clip/jubilee clip.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg

However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced.
The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the
water treatment in the boiler.


I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler.
I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause
it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.

Stormin Mormon[_7_] December 30th 11 06:10 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big
wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the appeal
of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one
fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to
loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could
not.

One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the
fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The
fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads.
Please let us know if this does any good.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in
grey color.

http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm

Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot
older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a
union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to
disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2"
steel piping.



Vic Smith December 30th 11 06:22 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:


I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler.
I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause
it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.


I used a corrosion inhibitor in my hot water system, but can't speak
for residential steam boilers.
Since it's pretty new, you should check the manual.
You should replace that pipe ASAP.
If it breaks with somebody nearby it could kill them.
Guy I worked with got killed opening an overhead steam trap on a
depressurized line.
Just the water running out scalded him to death.
U.S. Steel, South Works.

--Vic




Joe December 30th 11 06:39 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 6:51*am, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.

How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


Can't verify the fact, but one old time journeymen welder related how
he use to repair small steam leaks (under pressure) by pounding a
sharp tack into the hole and then carefully welding it into place.
MIG, TIG, whatever, it may have been, but having seen some amazing
work by these pros I tend to believe this was true.
A sharp tack in the hole followed by epoxy seems a lot safer approach,
naturally.

Joe

Mikepier December 30th 11 06:41 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 12:10*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big
wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the appeal
of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one
fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to
loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could
not.

One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the
fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The
fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads.
Please let us know if this does any good.

Usually I just cut the pipe with a sawzall, leaving the stub of pipe
sticking out of the fitting. Then I cut 2 small notches inside the
stub, cutting it in 2, and it comes out clean.

willshak December 30th 11 07:00 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
wrote the following:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:51:22 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.

How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


The only other way is to replace the pipe. You'll probably be doing
that soon anyhow. Once there is one leak, another will come soon.

Where did you read that about JB Weld? I've used it on engine blocks
and exhaust pipes with no problems. Or is that the JB Kwik (Quick
drying)? JB Weld is an epoxy, but has always been rated better than
others. But they may have new epoxy made to copy JB Weld these days.


He didn't say what type of epoxy he used, but he was wrong about the JB
epoxy. JB Kwik is rated to 300ºF and bonds in 4 minutes. Cures in 4 hours.
The regular JB Weld is rated to 500ºF, sets in about 5 hours, and cures
in about 15 hours.
I have used the JB Weld and it remains runny for a long time. I didn't
time it, but when checking it after after an hour or so, I could still
move the epoxy. It also still stuck to my finger.



Is your epoxy clear, or gray? What brand?

Sounds like you solved the problem at least for awhile.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

[email protected] December 30th 11 07:36 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 12:41*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Usually I just cut the pipe with a sawzall, leaving the stub of pipe
sticking out of the fitting. Then I cut 2 small notches inside the
stub, cutting it in 2, and it comes out clean.


That's probably the safest way to do it. If you go romping on the pipe
trying to remove it, you're likely to end up damaging the plumbing
further down the line.

Spent a lot of time as a kid helping the old man chase down rotten old
iron pipes in the barn. Seemed like you always ended up replacing
three pipes for every one that leaked because you wrecked them getting
to the leaky pipe.

Larry W December 30th 11 07:48 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
In article ,
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:


I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler.
I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause
it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.


I used a corrosion inhibitor in my hot water system, but can't speak
for residential steam boilers.
Since it's pretty new, you should check the manual.
You should replace that pipe ASAP.
If it breaks with somebody nearby it could kill them.
Guy I worked with got killed opening an overhead steam trap on a
depressurized line.
Just the water running out scalded him to death.
U.S. Steel, South Works.

--Vic




Residential steam heat boilers could burn someone but don't operate
at the pressures and temperatures that industrial systems do. Fatal injury
from a residential steam leak is extremely unlikely.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. (Albert Einstein)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

don &/or Lucille December 30th 11 09:00 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
Better to use pipe on the wrenche handles which give you the added leverage.
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big
wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the
appeal
of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one
fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to
loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could
not.

One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the
fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The
fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads.
Please let us know if this does any good.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in
grey color.

http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm

Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot
older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a
union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to
disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2"
steel piping.





Paul Drahn December 30th 11 10:37 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On 12/30/2011 10:00 AM, willshak wrote:


He didn't say what type of epoxy he used, but he was wrong about the JB
epoxy. JB Kwik is rated to 300ºF and bonds in 4 minutes. Cures in 4 hours.
The regular JB Weld is rated to 500ºF, sets in about 5 hours, and cures
in about 15 hours.
I have used the JB Weld and it remains runny for a long time. I didn't
time it, but when checking it after after an hour or so, I could still
move the epoxy. It also still stuck to my finger.


I use regular JB Weld from Lowes to make pallets of scrap circuit board
material to go through our convection soldering oven. We do both leaded
solder paste and lead-free solder paste. The pallets go through the oven
hundreds of times without epoxy problems. The circuit board material
begins to delaminate, but the JB Weld is still good. It does get rather
brittle, however.

I have been able to speed up the setting and curing of JB Weld using a
heat gun to raise the temperature of the material. Usually is set by the
second hour of occasionally heating all the joints. It still lasts as
long as joints left alone for 24 hours.

Paul

Stormin Mormon[_7_] December 30th 11 11:43 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
The cheater pipe has the advantage of speed. But, it's likely to over do the
force on the wrenches, and break a wrench.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"don &/or Lucille" wrote in message
...
Better to use pipe on the wrenche handles which give you the added leverage.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the
fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The
fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads.
Please let us know if this does any good.




Ed Pawlowski December 31st 11 04:18 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:




I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler.
I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause
it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.


Adding water does add oxygen. Chemical treatment though, on some
boiler is a must. If it is a cast iron boiler and you have good
water, treatment is probably not needed. The Weil McLain section
boilers are rather hardy that way. If it is a water tube or fire
tube boiler, treatment may be needed. Industrial boilers are treated
and chemical balance is checked every day to be sure it is correct.

If you have a preheat tank, be sure the temperature is up as high as
possible as it helps get rid of oxygen. You may want to add an oxygen
scavenger too.

Boilers should be blown down on occasion to remove accumulated solids
and to check the operation of automatic shut-off devices.

You may want to check with an experience steam boiler operator or
treatment specialist to see what you really need. You can even take
courses for the operation of steam boilers, but they are geared
towards the industrial type of boiler, much more complex that an
apartment building, but still the same basics apply.

Ed Pawlowski December 31st 11 04:24 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:51:22 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:



How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


They can be welded if it is newish pipe, but not old corroded stuff. .
Using epoxy is, at best, a temporary fix. How old is the setup? If
it is a year or two, probably not a big deal, but if it is a 15 year
old pipe, there is probably little left to fix.

Steam condensate is high in carbonic acid and will cause pipe to
corrode quicker than plain water. You may want to have a test done to
see if chemical treatment is needed.

Be prepared to replace the pipe and possible another section or two.

harry December 31st 11 08:14 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 30, 5:09*pm, Mikepier wrote:
On Dec 30, 10:38*am, harry wrote:





On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote:


Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the
boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe
( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I
assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down
the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part
epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up
the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks
after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm
wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy
dried as hard as steel.


How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but
you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250
degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees.


You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet
gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose
clip/jubilee clip.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg


However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced.
The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the
water treatment in the boiler.


I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler.
I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause
it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Added chemicals "get" the oxygen and control the ph of the water.

If there is anything to "flush out" you have a problem. It can only
be corrosion products.

Any intermitantly used steam plant has major problems. When shut down,
air gets into the system causing corrosion. Conditions are ideal for
corrosion.

Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned
for this purpose in most places.
It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the
disadvantages.
Only in America.

Ed Pawlowski December 31st 11 02:42 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:




Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned
for this purpose in most places.
It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the
disadvantages.
Only in America.


You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to
insult a country. Are you really that much of a scumbag? You give
the rest of the Brits a bad name. You have a strange way of achieving
your orgasm.

You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is
inappropriate to use steam is wrong. One advantage of steam is the
ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights
than water. With water, you need much more power and larger pumps.

George December 31st 11 02:57 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On 12/31/2011 8:42 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:




Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned
for this purpose in most places.
It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the
disadvantages.
Only in America.


You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to
insult a country. Are you really that much of a scumbag? You give
the rest of the Brits a bad name. You have a strange way of achieving
your orgasm.



I wonder the same thing. Every human endeavor (including a country) has
its pluses and minuses. Sensible people look at the big picture. I don't
get the point of Harries constant US bashing.

Maybe he needs to have a talk with someone about why he can only see the
bad side of things?


You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is
inappropriate to use steam is wrong. One advantage of steam is the
ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights
than water. With water, you need much more power and larger pumps.



Red Green December 31st 11 03:46 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
bob haller wrote in news:2a1f1af7-c0cd-44cb-8ffc-
:

plan on replacing the pipe, if the boilwer


Practicing your Elmer Fudd skills?

:-)

is older it migh save a lot
of money by upgrading to a new more efficent one



Mikepier December 31st 11 08:58 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 

For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ilers/egh.aspx

Ed Pawlowski December 31st 11 09:59 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:58:19 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:


For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ilers/egh.aspx



They have been around for many years. A pretty good cast iron boiler
and easy to maintain. Just be sure to check the low water cut off
periodically.

harry January 1st 12 11:13 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 31 2011, 1:42*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:



Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned
for this purpose in most places.
It has none of the avantages a large system has and *all of the
disadvantages.
Only in America.


You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to
insult a country. *Are you really that much of a scumbag? *You give
the rest of the Brits a bad name. *You have a strange way of achieving
your orgasm.

You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is
inappropriate to use steam is wrong. *One advantage of steam is the
ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights
than water. *With water, you need much more power and larger pumps.


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.

However all steam boilers are inherently inefficient and there are
massive distribution losses.
There may well be pumping of feedwater and condensate, (Depending on
how antiquated the system is.)

So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.

It's therefore amazing that here is a tiny steam boiler only two years
old.
A modern system would pay back in only a few years in the fuel
savings.

Only the most conservative idiot would contemplate such a thing.
Only in fact in America.

harry January 1st 12 11:18 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 31 2011, 1:57*pm, George wrote:
On 12/31/2011 8:42 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:





On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned
for this purpose in most places.
It has none of the avantages a large system has and *all of the
disadvantages.
Only in America.


You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to
insult a country. *Are you really that much of a scumbag? *You give
the rest of the Brits a bad name. *You have a strange way of achieving
your orgasm.


I wonder the same thing. Every human endeavor (including a country) *has
its pluses and minuses. Sensible people look at the big picture. I don't
get the point of Harries constant US bashing.

Maybe he needs to have a talk with someone about why he can only see the
bad side of things?





You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is
inappropriate to use steam is wrong. *One advantage of steam is the
ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights
than water. *With water, you need much more power and larger pumps.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I just love winding you Yanks up. Many live in a cocoon and come out
with the most ridiculous stuff. There are some well informed people
here. (None of them are republicans)
I put it down to government brainwashing.
I consider it my duty to reverse this as you are a dangerous menace to
the world.

harry January 1st 12 11:47 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Dec 31 2011, 7:58*pm, Mikepier wrote:
For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ercial-boilers...


Just read through that. Very interesting.
I never realised that such crap was still made.
It's the sort of thing one reads about in text books and marvels at
how primitive, limited and inefficient things were in Victorian
times.
It must also be expensive to buy and has a few inherent hazards.

I can't think of a single advantage it has to make any one want one.
Unless it be to replace a similar one.

You need to do a costing exercise to see what advantage there would be
in replacing the system with a modern one.
There may well be a general corrosion problem throughout the system
that will force your hand in any event..
But if you have gas, think decentralisation. There will be no problem
in halving your fuel bill. Maybe more than that.

This was my field before I retired. I would have been delighted to
find such a sytem, it would be easy to make massive savings and look
wonderful! Heh Heh.

Thank you for telling me about it.

Ed Pawlowski January 1st 12 03:01 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:



If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.



So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the
building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.

The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.

I glad to hear that all of the UK has done this to the old buildings
though. More oil for the rest of us.

George January 1st 12 03:26 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On 1/1/2012 5:18 AM, harry wrote:


I just love winding you Yanks up. Many live in a cocoon and come out
with the most ridiculous stuff. There are some well informed people
here. (None of them are republicans)
I put it down to government brainwashing.
I consider it my duty to reverse this as you are a dangerous menace to
the world.


Couldn't avoid getting another round of bashing in could you? As I said
normal well adjusted people can see the big picture...

Vic Smith January 1st 12 11:12 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:



If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.



So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the
building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.

The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.

--Vic




Ed Pawlowski January 2nd 12 04:47 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:12:25 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:




You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.


Depends on how you use the word. This is a mini-decentralization. What
Harry is talking about is having one central boiler to do the entire
building, rather than a bunch of smaller, efficient, water heating
units, one per apartment. We really are talking about the same thing
and one of my projects this year is to look into doing exactly that in
our building at work.

There is a section of our building that is about 100 years old. It
has sprinklers and must be kept above freezing. Two spaces are rented
out. The rest of that building probably never will be rented, but
still must be heated.

So far, I've broken off the two tenant spaces and converted them to
gas fired water. A portion of the "new" building where our offices are
was also heated by the steam boiler. They were taken off and put on
to another existing water boiler.

The unused portions of the building just have to be kept from
freezing. Part is used for storage, the rest is empty and not
practical to rent. The steam boiler runs either two hours a day or
four hours, depending on outside temperature. It has never needed
more than two 2 hour periods even on the coldest days.

If we wanted to keep the building at say, 68 degrees for occupied
space, it would be a no-brainer. With minimal running, the payback
for the project will be much longer. It is not just buying the
boilers, it is also the piping, partitioning, venting, etc. that must
be done.



I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.


Exactly. Steam was installed in our building because, at the time it
was the most practical. From the boiler in the basement, steam has to
move up to three floors plus an attic. Before changes, it had to move
horizontally about 200 feet and the up 10 and down 10 for that section
of the building. That was already changed over.

We bought this building in 2001 and moved production to it in 2007.
The building we have is 180,000 square feet and has every type of
heating known to man as it was built from 1890 to 1975 and we started
refurbing in 2007. Gas fired steam, two gas fired water heaters. 2
oil fired hot air units, 3 gas fired rooftop heaters (installed 2008).
electric baseboard, 5 gas fired unit heaters. The rooftop units
replaced some infrared heaters that we could not have with our
process.

In addition, we have two 125 hp gas fired process boilers that operate
at 110 psi. There is enough heat from the machines that the
production area needs no added heat when operating.

harry January 2nd 12 09:52 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Jan 1, 10:12*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.


So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the
building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.


The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


In the case under discussion a stupid decision was taken two years ago
when the boiler was changed. The whole system should have been checked
out. That would have been the opportunity to make a cost saving
change,ie get rid of the steam. Now they have a new boiler and a
possibly shagged out pipe system..

Steam radiators are smaller because the steam carries latent heat/heat
of vapourisation.
The condensate leaving the radiators is at exactly the same
temperature as the steam entering.

There are several ways of piping out a gravity steam system. The "one
pipe" option is probably the worst.
Hey they are not still doing THAT in America!!!?

harry January 2nd 12 10:06 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Jan 1, 10:12*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.


So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the
building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.


The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes.
One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the
coal is cheap enough.
The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would
otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often
defeated cost wise due to seasonality.
When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating.

Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource.

The Daring Dufas[_7_] January 2nd 12 03:16 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote:
On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.


So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the
building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.


The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes.
One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the
coal is cheap enough.
The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would
otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often
defeated cost wise due to seasonality.
When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating.

Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource.


The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and
electrical power generation. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland

TDD

harry January 2nd 12 05:26 PM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On Jan 2, 2:16*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote:





On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic *wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed *wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.


So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the
building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.


The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.


--Vic- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes.
One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the
coal is cheap enough.
The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would
otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often
defeated cost wise due to seasonality.
When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating.


Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource.


The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and
electrical power generation. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Their steam is free.

The Daring Dufas[_7_] January 3rd 12 02:30 AM

Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
 
On 1/2/2012 10:26 AM, harry wrote:
On Jan 2, 2:16 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote:





On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small.
Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections
of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and
a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated
buildings.


So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast
savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam)
boilers close to the buildings to be heated.


On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the
building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the
building to a new system.


The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or
nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient,
but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps
for the most efficient.


You guys are talking apples and oranges.
The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building.
It *is* "decentralized."
Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category.
There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings.
NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago.
I might question using steam depending on the size of the building.
Could be a case of "that's how we always did it."
Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work.
If it's one pipe steam, probably not.
Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators.
Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter.
Blah blah.
You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me.


--Vic- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes.
One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the
coal is cheap enough.
The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would
otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often
defeated cost wise due to seasonality.
When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating.


Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource.


The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and
electrical power generation. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Their steam is free.


It is quite amazing isn't it? ^_^

TDD


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