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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....

Thanks

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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

wrote in message
...
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


From:

http://machinedesign.com/article/gre...nt-motors-0619

Six factors account for most of the energy lost in an ordinary induction
motor: iron-core losses, stator resistance, rotor resistance, windage and
friction, and stray load losses. NEMA Premium motors minimize these factors
in a variety of ways, usually through use of high-grade steel and increased
use of active materials. For example, high-grade steel in the rotor lets
manufacturers use thicker laminations that take less time to manufacture,
but which still reduce ironcore losses caused by circulating currents.
Similarly, manufacturers reduce stator resistance by boosting the amount of
copper in the stator windings.

--

Bobby G.



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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Nov 30, 5:03*am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. *I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. *That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? *Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? *Is it torque, or some other factor? *Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....

Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.

Result, smaller and cheaper motor.

HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor
Or more exactly:-

2 x pi x N x T divided by 33.000

2 x pi converts to radians
N is speed in rpm
Tis the torque in pounds feet.

As far as I remember in your antique system.

An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

one thing for certain newer motors, ones produced in the last 10 years
are physically smaller.....

they are welded or glued together, lack heavy steel cases, and no
doubt cant last as long as older ones, no service needed, typical
cheap modern design. toss and replace when it has a problem...


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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....

Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.

Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.

Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.

Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.

Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.

...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.

--
bud--
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Nov 30, 12:59*am, Sjouke Burry s@b wrote:
wrote :

I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. *I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. *That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.


How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? *Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? *Is it torque, or some other factor? *Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


Thanks


1. Skimpy design.
2. The waterpump may be cooled a bit by the pumped water.
3. The designer might have counted on short runs with
* *enough cooling down in between.
All that allowes a smaller motor.


I think that the water cooling may be a big part of it. Heat buildup
is part of the reason regular continuous-duty electrical motors are so
large - for example, an automotive starter motor develops more power
than likely anything in your workshop but is relatively small -
because it's not designed for continuous usage, so heat buildup is
pretty much neglected as a design consideration. But try to use one
under load for more than a couple minutes at a time, and see what
happens...

nate
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

Ever notice the HP ratings on shop vacuums?

I saw one that said 6 HP yet it had a 16 gauge power cord on it.

Since 1 HP = 746 watts, that cord was passing 4476 watts or 37.3 amps.

WTF? How could that be?
It seems as though someone is stretching the HP rating a bit.

Didn't the small gas engine companies get busted for lying about their HP?
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

In article ,
wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....

Thanks


Without even going into considerations of efficiency, torque characteristics,
or type of moter (induction, series/universal, etc.) one common way
is simply to increase the operating RPM. A 1 HP motor operating at 3600 rpm
can be significantly smaller than one operating at 1800 rpm.


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

Moe Gasser wrote:

Didn't the small gas engine companies get busted for lying about
their HP?


I've got a form to add data to for that sitting on my desk.




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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Nov 30, 5:33*pm, Moe Gasser moe.gas...@flatulators-
anonymous.pffft wrote:
Ever notice the HP ratings on shop vacuums?

I saw one that said 6 HP yet it had a 16 gauge power cord on it.

Since 1 HP = 746 watts, that cord was passing 4476 watts or 37.3 amps.

WTF? How could that be?
It seems as though someone is stretching the HP rating a bit.

Didn't the small gas engine companies get busted for lying about their HP?


Depends on the voltage. And power factor.
Flexible cables are higher rated than fixed cables.
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On 11/30/2011 9:01 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.

How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....

Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.

Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.

Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.

Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.

Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.

...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.


I go through a lot of electric motors at times and air handlers in some
of the older commercial buildings will have these huge 1/2 to 1hp cast
iron frame motors that are infinitely rebuildable as long as the casting
isn't cracked or wallowed out. The motor rewind shops I deal with
usually keep a few already rewound in stock. Some years back, I had to
remove for rewinding, a 60hp 444S frame motor from a 60 ton open drive
air conditioner compressor and the old 60 horse was the same size as a
modern 100hp electric motor. I actually found the guy who had rewound
the motor 20 years before, he remembered it and rewound it again. ^_^

TDD
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Dec 1, 11:57*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 11/30/2011 9:01 AM, bud-- wrote:





On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.


How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.


Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.


Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.


Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.


Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.


...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.


I go through a lot of electric motors at times and air handlers in some
of the older commercial buildings will have these huge 1/2 to 1hp cast
iron frame motors that are infinitely rebuildable as long as the casting
isn't cracked or wallowed out. The motor rewind shops I deal with
usually keep a few already rewound in stock. Some years back, I had to
remove for rewinding, a 60hp 444S frame motor from a 60 ton open drive
air conditioner compressor and the old 60 horse was the same size as a
modern 100hp electric motor. I actually found the guy who had rewound
the motor 20 years before, he remembered it and rewound it again. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I think most of the motor rewind places over here have closed down.
Cheaper to junk them and replace.
A lot of the new ones can't b erewound.
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On 12/2/2011 7:02 AM, harry wrote:
On Dec 1, 11:57 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 11/30/2011 9:01 AM, bud-- wrote:





On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.


How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.


Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.


Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.


Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.


Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.


...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.


I go through a lot of electric motors at times and air handlers in some
of the older commercial buildings will have these huge 1/2 to 1hp cast
iron frame motors that are infinitely rebuildable as long as the casting
isn't cracked or wallowed out. The motor rewind shops I deal with
usually keep a few already rewound in stock. Some years back, I had to
remove for rewinding, a 60hp 444S frame motor from a 60 ton open drive
air conditioner compressor and the old 60 horse was the same size as a
modern 100hp electric motor. I actually found the guy who had rewound
the motor 20 years before, he remembered it and rewound it again. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I think most of the motor rewind places over here have closed down.
Cheaper to junk them and replace.
A lot of the new ones can't b erewound.


My first job out of college was working for an electrical supply company
that also had an electric motor repair and rewind shop.
The company supplied industry throughout that area of the state.
Repair and rewinding of electric motors is still a big business
around here.

TDD
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Nov 30, 12:03*am, wrote:
How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? *Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? *Is it torque, or some other factor? *Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


There is no standard ratings system for tool and appliance motors, and
manufacturers use fuzzy math to make their products look more powerful
than they really are.

Just look at vacuum cleaners. You go to Kmart and pick up some cheap
plastic Hoover that boasts "2.5 HP" or some such... Plug it into the
WattsUp meter at home and it might draw 7 Amps when it's trying to
inhale the fringe throw rug.

7 Amps at 120V is nowhere near 2.5 HP. You couldn't put 2.5 HP worth
of power through the 15A electrical circuit you have it plugged into.

They rated the motor by how many Amps it is drawing just before it
stalls and burns out.


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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On Dec 2, 1:54*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 12/2/2011 7:02 AM, harry wrote:





On Dec 1, 11:57 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 11/30/2011 9:01 AM, bud-- wrote:


On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.


How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.


Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.


Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.


Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.


Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.


...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.


I go through a lot of electric motors at times and air handlers in some
of the older commercial buildings will have these huge 1/2 to 1hp cast
iron frame motors that are infinitely rebuildable as long as the casting
isn't cracked or wallowed out. The motor rewind shops I deal with
usually keep a few already rewound in stock. Some years back, I had to
remove for rewinding, a 60hp 444S frame motor from a 60 ton open drive
air conditioner compressor and the old 60 horse was the same size as a
modern 100hp electric motor. I actually found the guy who had rewound
the motor 20 years before, he remembered it and rewound it again. ^_^


TDD- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I think most of the motor rewind places over here have closed down.
Cheaper to junk them and replace.
A lot of the new ones can't b erewound.


My first job out of college was working for an electrical supply company
that also had an electric motor repair and rewind shop.
The company supplied industry throughout that area of the state.
Repair and rewinding of electric motors is still a big business
around here.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Only large motors here are rewound. Just not economical to do the
small ones. A lot have the windings set in resin, very difficult to
do anything with.
They seem to be much more reliable than in days of yore.
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Default Horsepower of electric motor V/S Size of motor

On 12/2/2011 2:31 PM, harry wrote:
On Dec 2, 1:54 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 12/2/2011 7:02 AM, harry wrote:





On Dec 1, 11:57 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 11/30/2011 9:01 AM, bud-- wrote:


On 11/30/2011 3:46 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 30, 5:03 am, wrote:
I have a 1/2HP electric motor on a power saw, and that motor is fairly
large. I just bought a portable pump for transferring water from
items such as a flooded washing machine, bathtub with clogged drain,
etc. That motor is only about 35% of the size of the motor on my
power saw, yet the tag says it's a 1/2HP motor.


How can one 1/2HP motor less than half the size of another 1/2HP motor
produce the same horsepower? Is there another factor to take into
account besides the HP? Is it torque, or some other factor? Somehow
I cant see how this small pump motor could power my saw....


Thanks


The technology of motor has has improved vastly over the years.
Better, more heat resistant/thinner insulation, better magnetic
matrials, better design, Smaller clearance between stator and rotor.


Result, smaller and cheaper motor.


Adding to that, motor design was pushed closer to the electrical design
edge to make cheaper motors. (Some of that has been reversed in high
efficiency motors.) Many years ago the standard 'frame size' was reduced
a couple times if I remember right. If the saw has a motor that is quite
old it may be larger than an equivalent motor made now.


Some motors have a "service factor" rating (maybe 1.15). That means the
motor can be operated beyond its rated HP with a somewhat shorter life
but not drastically shorter life. I never looked, but motors with a SF
rating may be larger.


Motors have a nameplate "duty" rating, usually "continuous". Sjouke
suggests the pump may have an intermittent rating.


Then there is the deliberate misrating of motors, as was done for
instance by compressor manufacturers.


HP equivalent to Watts.
HP =speed of motor X torque x a conversion factor


In case that isn't clear, lower RPM motors are likely larger for the
same HP.


...


An electric motor size is limited only by heat losses and ability to
disperse them.


There are limits, like saturating the magnetic material.


I go through a lot of electric motors at times and air handlers in some
of the older commercial buildings will have these huge 1/2 to 1hp cast
iron frame motors that are infinitely rebuildable as long as the casting
isn't cracked or wallowed out. The motor rewind shops I deal with
usually keep a few already rewound in stock. Some years back, I had to
remove for rewinding, a 60hp 444S frame motor from a 60 ton open drive
air conditioner compressor and the old 60 horse was the same size as a
modern 100hp electric motor. I actually found the guy who had rewound
the motor 20 years before, he remembered it and rewound it again. ^_^


TDD- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I think most of the motor rewind places over here have closed down.
Cheaper to junk them and replace.
A lot of the new ones can't b erewound.


My first job out of college was working for an electrical supply company
that also had an electric motor repair and rewind shop.
The company supplied industry throughout that area of the state.
Repair and rewinding of electric motors is still a big business
around here.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Only large motors here are rewound. Just not economical to do the
small ones. A lot have the windings set in resin, very difficult to
do anything with.
They seem to be much more reliable than in days of yore.


The regular split phase, capacitor start and capacitor run motors in
standard sizes and frames aren't usually rewound, they're scrapped but
there are a lot of smaller motors that have no direct replacement and
those are the ones that are rewound. I often send small DC drive
armatures off to be rewound to a place in Tampa, Florida. They're good
with the very small DC motors like those in 90 vdc drives.

http://www.southernwinding.com/

I have had larger armatures rewound locally but no one around here is as
good with the smaller drives. Automotive starters, generators and
alternators are also remanufactured and repaired all around here.

TDD
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