Cloudy gas????
 

On 11/29/2011 8:39 AM, Frank wrote:

I've got a 4 stroke Tecumseh which says to either store with stabilized
gas or run dry. The one year I left stabilized gas in it, it would not
run and carburetor seals had to be replaced. Further reading of manual
says not to use gas with ethanol in it. The ethanol increases the
polarity of the gas which may attack seals not made for it. This is the
kind of unintended consequences you get when you let politicians make
technical decisions on what must be put in your gas.

You are absolutely correct, ethanol gasoline is the fuel from hell for
yard and garden equipment.

Shortly after the ethanol engine damage reports started rolling in, I
switched to 100LL avgas for all my 4 strokes. My 2 strokes (chainsaw and
weed whacker) get Stihl Motomix.

It sure is nice to know I can store my gas engines for a few months and
not worry about engine damage.

Cloudy gas????
 

I've heard polar bears attack them too.

On 11/29/2011 10:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've heard that ethanol attacks seals.

Cloudy gas????
 

But ethyl gives willingly to silver and gold.

(see if we have any old electronic technicians who can
explain why that's funny, violet?)

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Brett Buckner" wrote in message
...
I've heard polar bears attack them too.

On 11/29/2011 10:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've heard that ethanol attacks seals.

Cloudy gas????
 

On 11/29/2011 7:50 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
But ethyl gives willingly to silver and gold.

(see if we have any old electronic technicians who can
explain why that's funny, violet?)


There may be too much resistance. ^_^

TDD

Cloudy gas????
 

On 11/29/2011 4:45 PM, Larry W wrote:
In ,
The Daring wrote:

On 11/28/2011 5:17 PM, Larry W wrote:
...snipped...
Gasoline is not hygroscopic unless it has been blended with ethanor
or other hygroscopic compounds.


I thought the term was "miscible". When you mix alcohol with gasoline
the mixture is miscible with water because the alcohol is miscible with
both water and gasoline. I thought "hygroscopic" referred to solid
compounds?

http://chemistry.about.com/od/dictio...efmiscible.htm

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6rfs94n

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemis...Definition.htm

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7jy72cw

TDD

You evidently are correct for the terminology that a chemist would
use, though I believe that 2 liquids being miscible does not necessarily
imply an attraction between the 2 of them the way that "hygroscopic" does
for a substance that attracts water. My background is in vehicle and mobile
equipment maintenance, where the term "hygroscopic" is commonly used to
describe the affinity that DOT 3 (glycerine based) brake fluid and
some other automotive fluids seem to have for water.


Hummm, very true in many circumstances, the terminology across fields
often morphs into different but similar meanings. I remember studying
for my broadcast engineers license that the instructor said that when
asking the phone company engineers to give you more volume on your
leased line for a program feed, you don't tell them to increase the
gain, you have to ask them to lessen the loss. ^_^

TDD

Cloudy gas????
 

On Nov 29, 10:18*am, Han wrote:
harry wrote in news:c83b59a8-edfc-4905-b0cf-
:

Gasoline/petrol certainly is hygroscopic. Ethanol just makes it more
hygroscopic.

I don't believe gasoline/petrol/benzine (US/UK/NL) is hygroscopic. *Most
likely, a tank that is less than full and equilibrated with ambient
temperature, humid air will exhibit condensation when tem[erature plummets,
either with altitude, or cold nights. *Once condensed, water will not
easily evaporate from the gas.

Ethanol in the gas will actually help dissolve any water that gets in the
tank, although I believe the additive that used to be sold to help dissolve
condensed water in a tank was methanol, not ethanol.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

If petrol was not hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

Cloudy gas????
 

harry wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Cloudy gas????
 

On Nov 30, 5:37*pm, Han wrote:
harry wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. *Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

i know all this.
So it is hygroscopic after all?

Cloudy gas????
 

On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

Cloudy gas????
 

On Dec 1, 1:09*pm, Frank wrote:
On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote: *wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. *Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

You haven't explained why you need a water testing kit for Avgas.
I used to look after an Avgas fuel tank.
Extra-ordinary steps are taken to keep water out/away from it and to
make sure there's none in in it before use/delivery.
And theres no biofuels added to avgas either.
http://all-things-aviation.com/aircr...contamination/

Cloudy gas????
 

harry wrote in news:e5eef018-d058-4765-88a2-
:

i know all this.
So it is hygroscopic after all?


It's a question of definition. Gasoline is NOT hygrosacopic by itself,
which does NOT mean that a little water cannot dissolve in it, and
certainly doesn't mean that water condensation insode the tank cannot
occur. Sorry for the many double negatives.

Calcium chloride (solid) IS hygroscopic and will attract water until it is
dissolved in a puddle of water.

Is that sufficient illustration of the definition of hygroscopic?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Cloudy gas????
 

harry wrote in
:

On Dec 1, 1:09*pm, Frank wrote:
On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote: *wrote
i
n news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to
test for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature,
ambient humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water
that can diss
olve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls,
suc
h as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes
outof solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines.
*Hence the
need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

You haven't explained why you need a water testing kit for Avgas.
I used to look after an Avgas fuel tank.
Extra-ordinary steps are taken to keep water out/away from it and to
make sure there's none in in it before use/delivery.
And theres no biofuels added to avgas either.
http://all-things-aviation.com/aircr...contamination/

Pay attention, especially to where it was said that water can condense
inside a tank, and contaminate the gasoline stored there (either in the
main storage tanks or the airplane's tank). It is likely that a little
dissolved water isn't as bad as a fine emulsion of excess condensed water
(cloudy gas). For internal combustion engines water is likely much more
of a problem than in a jet.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Cloudy gas????
 

On Dec 1, 10:45*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 1, 1:09*pm, Frank wrote:





On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote: *wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. *Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

You haven't explained why you need a water testing kit for Avgas.
I used to look after an Avgas fuel tank.
Extra-ordinary steps are taken to keep water out/away from it and to
make sure there's none in in it before use/delivery.
And theres no biofuels added to avgas either.http://all-things-aviation.com/aircr...ontamination/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody said you could not get water in your gas. It need not be
hygroscopic for it to get there.
Finer points are lost on you.

Cloudy gas????
 

Frank wrote in news:ed8b2770-dbae-44fc-a297-
:

Nobody said you could not get water in your gas. It need not be
hygroscopic for it to get there.
Finer points are lost on you.


Good points. :)


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Cloudy gas????
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:50:24 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

But ethyl gives willingly to silver and gold.

(see if we have any old electronic technicians who can
explain why that's funny, violet?)

I was going to say, Violet is the nympho (but I'm an engineer, not tech).
....and I also had some tolerance for "Get Some Now".

Cloudy gas????
 

On 12/1/2011 8:09 AM, Frank wrote:
On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can
dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

Me thinks harry is either mentally retarded or a troll.

Cloudy gas????
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:33:16 -0500, Jack Hammer wrote:

On 12/1/2011 8:09 AM, Frank wrote:
On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can
dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

Me thinks harry is either mentally retarded or a troll.

You don't have to make a choice.

Cloudy gas????
 

On Dec 1, 4:46*pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 1, 10:45*am, harry wrote:





On Dec 1, 1:09*pm, Frank wrote:

On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote: *wrote in news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to test
for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature, ambient
humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water that can dissolve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls, such as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes outof
solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines. *Hence the need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

You haven't explained why you need a water testing kit for Avgas.
I used to look after an Avgas fuel tank.
Extra-ordinary steps are taken to keep water out/away from it and to
make sure there's none in in it before use/delivery.
And theres no biofuels added to avgas either.http://all-things-aviation..com/airc...mination/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nobody said you could not get water in your gas. *It need not be
hygroscopic for it to get there.
Finer points are lost on you.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No. But never the less it is.

Cloudy gas????
 

On Dec 1, 4:27*pm, Han wrote:
harry wrote :





On Dec 1, 1:09*pm, Frank wrote:
On 11/30/2011 12:37 PM, Han wrote: *wrote
i
n news:77d74da9-a74f-41cc-a2c8-
:

If petrol was not *hygroscopic, why would kits be available to
test for water?

hygroscopic means attracts water. *At any given temperature,
ambient humidity and pressure, there is a certain amount of water
that can diss
olve
in any fluid, including gasloine. *If then the temperature falls,
suc
h as
when the gas is evaporating, or at high altitude, the water comes
outof solution very easily and then is bad for aviation engines.
*Hence the
*need
for determining exact water content of the gas.

http://www.asearle.co.uk/AVGAS-fuel-testing.html

I've told Harry before that I am a chemist.
He pays no attention to me.
You can't teach stupid ;)

You haven't explained why you need a water testing kit for Avgas.
I used to look after an Avgas fuel tank.
Extra-ordinary steps are taken to keep water out/away from it and to
make sure there's none in in it before use/delivery.
And theres no biofuels added to avgas either.
http://all-things-aviation.com/aircr...contamination/

Pay attention, especially to where it was said that water can condense
inside a tank, and contaminate the gasoline stored there (either in the
main storage tanks or the airplane's tank). *It is likely that a little
dissolved water isn't as bad as a fine emulsion of excess condensed water
(cloudy gas). *For internal combustion engines water is likely much more
of a problem than in a jet.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Petrol can dissolve a given amount of water at a given temperature in
exactly the same way as air (check out relative humidy).
If it then cools, the water comes out of solution in exactly the same
way as in air (fog/cloud). This is what the OP is seeing, a cloud of
water droplets,come out of solution as his petrol has cooled.
Given time, the droplets would increase in size and settle out.
(equivalent to rain in air).
At this point they become a problem.
Even if the petrol warms up, the free water is likely to remain, even
increase with every heat/coolingcycle.
If it gets into the engine it will of course not run.
In aircraft it can freeze and block off the fuel supply.
In aircraft as the petrol cools and water that was not apparent/
visible. appears and can cause problems.

It's considered good practice to leave aircraft with full tanks to
minmise all of this.

If petrol evaporates and if it is "saturated" with water, the water
also appears as a liquid and settles out, yet another potential
problem.