Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

"frank1492" wrote in message
...
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?

I would use a fox and hound test set.

http://cableorganizer.com/triplett/t...-hound2kit.htm

(No affiliation, just the first site that showed on Google) It has two
pieces. One is a signal/tone generator that "injects" an RF signal into the
line being traced. The other part, the hound, is a receiver that can pick
up the signal in the wire under test. Mine has a distinctive warbling tone
to indicate I'm near the wire and a small probe tip to help separate wires
in bundles.

I paid about $40 for my set - not a Triplett but a "Godunov." (-" I am sure
you can find them for even less. Not sure you can rent them just because I
never have but I don't see why not.

While I've never done it, I'll bet you could use a small AM/FM radio and
some kind of signal injector (my Vivitar 263 photoflash charging circuit
could be "heard" on nearby AM radios, f'rinstance) to do much the same
thing. I wouldn't bother. My "tech" buddy and I were just remarking about
how useful they are in any sort of cable pulling or tracing endeavor. It
was a great investment for $40 considering the time saved.

An electrician or a "cable jockey" most certainly would have one. May I
ask why you need to trace this wire? Your proposal to test by sending
110VAC at high current through an undocumented outside buried wire
(previously used for a low-voltage application) even for testing worries me
a bit.

--
Bobby G.


--
Bobby G.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Nov 12, 5:51*am, frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
* * *What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
* * *Help much appreciated!
* * *Thank you.
* * * * * *Frank

Go out and hire yourself a cable tracer. Get the one with a signal
generator you attach to the cable and a hand held detector.
There are cheap detectors witout generator that will find a cable
carrying mains power but they have limited range.
No-one can tell you where to hire one unless they live local to you.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Whatever you do, use only one wire.
If the return current flows thru an adjacent wire, the
external fields cancel.

There are companies that hunt for hidden stuff before roadwork
is done. Call the city engineering department and see if they
know or can refer you to one of the finder companies.
Fone company probably has the stuff too.

You can get field detectors at Home Depot used to find wires in walls.
I tried three different ones. A Fluke LVD1 had about twice the range of the
others. Nearly a foot in air. Ground may make a big difference.
I'm too lazy to dig a hole.

Metal detectors, especially older ones, work by putting a signal
into a sense coil and looking for frequency changes caused by the metal.

If you put a signal of nearly the same frequency into the underground
wire, you may be able to hear the beat frequency in the metal detector.

That's the simplest thing I can think to try using equipment you can
likely borrow for free from your friends.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Ideas come to mind. One is toner tracer set, like phone guys
use.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cable-tracker-94181.html

Other is to energize the wire with 110 VAC power like you
suggest, and then use a line voltage detector.
http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ter-97218.html

Another option is to use a metal detector.
http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ter-97218.html

Another option is to use one of these, start at the ends
where you know the ends are.
http://www.harborfreight.com/round-n...dle-99894.html

Another option is to find who put the line in, offer him a
box of chocolates if he'll tell you where the line is.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"frank1492" wrote in message
...
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed
loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more
than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to
trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect
one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space
heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the
cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is
energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we
look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.


I had a little luck using a signal generator that reached into the AM frequency
band, and an AM radio. I was looking for a break in an AC line with it. It did
not help with the break, but did give me an approximate location for the wire.

I finally found the break by energizing the line and using milliameter with a
probe pressed into the ground (other probe to water pipe) to look for current
leakage.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500, frank1492
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500, frank1492
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.

Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:03:03 -0800, mike wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500, frank1492
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.

Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)

I was unaware of that technique. Please elaborate how I could
trace the path of a buried cable with a TDR?

It tells you the distance to fault (very well, in fact). If that doesn't
help, keep better records.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Other is to energize the wire with 110 VAC power like you
suggest, and then use a line voltage detector.
http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ter-97218.html

That is dangerous, you don't want to apply high voltage to a wire you
don't know anything about. It may junction somewhere and feed 110V to a
place unknown. Worse case scenario is a fire, which could result in
injuries or death. Not worth it to trace a wire.

I would use a tone generator.

--

"I don't like to discriminate against terrorists based on nationality.
If you declare war on the United States and you want to kill us,
We're going to kill you first, period."

October 19, 2011 - Ali Soufan (Colbert Report)

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On 11/13/2011 12:23 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:03:03 -0800, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500,
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.

Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)

I was unaware of that technique. Please elaborate how I could
trace the path of a buried cable with a TDR?

It tells you the distance to fault (very well, in fact). If that doesn't
help, keep better records.

Maybe for some other location. The OP said they wanted to locate the
cable and never mentioned a fault.

A TDR really is of minimal to no value for cable tracing.

Since this seems to be a one time event the OPs best bet would be to
find someone with a cable/pipe tracer who could locate the cable in a
few minutes.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

"Stormin Mormon" wrote

stuff snipped

Other is to energize the wire with 110 VAC power like you
suggest, and then use a line voltage detector.

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ter-97218.html

Gack! I agree with Mr. Morgan. A line voltage detector won't work through a
foot of dirt, AFAIK. Energizing a wire previously used as a low-voltage
speaker wire with 110VAC is not the preferred method in any case. The wire
could be compromised, hooked up to controls in an unknown area or even part
of some previous, ill-conceived "shock a burglar" system. Best to use low
voltage tools like the Fox/Hound set or something similar.

Even that advice comes with a caveat. We don't know what the OP wants to do
with this wire. If it's to carry significant current, like a space heater,
I'd be tempted to pull up what exists and re-lay cable of known good quality
installed as per the NEC and/or the local rules governing outside wiring,
and that usually means putting a GFCI in the loop somewhere, at least.

The OP has no idea if the wiring was being used for speakers because it's
unsuitable to carry line voltage because of damage or some other problem.
No way to tell if it's spliced every 20' with nothing but black tape or wire
nuts or has long gashes in it from being pulled against some sharp edge.

I wouldn't, in any case, energize it with line voltage in the hopes of being
detectable by some means other than a standard wire tracing kit with a tone
generator and a matching receiver/tracer.

--
Bobby G.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Now you're going to tell me that power and voltage detector
is why the air plane went screwey on 9/11/01 and lost the
guidance system and crashed into the world trade center?
Someone on board tracing a wire?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"G. Morgan" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Other is to energize the wire with 110 VAC power like you
suggest, and then use a line voltage detector.

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ter-97218.html

That is dangerous, you don't want to apply high voltage to a
wire you
don't know anything about. It may junction somewhere and
feed 110V to a
place unknown. Worse case scenario is a fire, which could
result in
injuries or death. Not worth it to trace a wire.

I would use a tone generator.

--

"I don't like to discriminate against terrorists based on
nationality.
If you declare war on the United States and you want to kill
us,
We're going to kill you first, period."

October 19, 2011 - Ali Soufan (Colbert Report)

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Nov 11, 9:51*pm, frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
* * *What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
* * *Help much appreciated!
* * *Thank you.
* * * * * *Frank

I know, I know but... Ask around for someone who dowses. If he'll do
it for free you can then dig a test hole to confirm the findings.

I had never tried to find a buried wire before so just went out and
tried the only one I have around here. It worked. I don't trust the
rods without digging to confirm though. In this case I got a firm
indication on a wire buried a couple feet with no active current (feed
to shed with nothing turned on).

BUT I knew within a couple feet where the wire was. Same as all my
other "finds", I either already know the location of something or
there are clues that say the logical place for it to be...except one
and I would sure like to dig in my neighbor's lawn to see if the pipe
is there. :).

Harry K

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now you're going to tell me that power and voltage detector
is why the air plane went screwey on 9/11/01 and lost the
guidance system and crashed into the world trade center?
Someone on board tracing a wire?

WTF?
--

"I don't like to discriminate against terrorists based on nationality.
If you declare war on the United States and you want to kill us,
We're going to kill you first, period."

October 19, 2011 - Ali Soufan (Colbert Report)

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

"frank1492" wrote in message
...
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank

Make a witch. Two pieces of baling wire 14" long. Bend at an L at 4".
Hold loosely in hands with wrists touching sides. Loose enough and tilting
SLIGHTLY so the long ends swing forward. When you walk over the line, the
two wires will swing across each other. People say it don't work, but I
have used it lots of times. Good for all sorts of stuff. I have even found
coins and pieces of odd metal with it. Definitely find live (or dead)
Romex. I could find it in less than two minutes if I was there.

I have to do a youtube one of these days for the doubting Thomases.

Steve

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Nov 12, 12:51*am, frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
* * *What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
* * *Help much appreciated!
* * *Thank you.
* * * * * *Frank

why do you want trace it? its likely straight path between locations,
since digging is hard work

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 03:24:42 -0800, mike wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:03:03 -0800, mike wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500, frank1492
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.
Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)
I was unaware of that technique. Please elaborate how I could
trace the path of a buried cable with a TDR?

It tells you the distance to fault (very well, in fact). If that doesn't
help, keep better records.

Yes, I have several TDR setups...
BUT

since no mention of a fault....If you can put 120V in one end and put
a heater on the other end...

If you don't have a fault there is no need to trace it.

Relevance is questionable.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On 11/13/2011 8:24 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 03:24:42 -0800, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:03:03 -0800, wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500,
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.
Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)
I was unaware of that technique. Please elaborate how I could
trace the path of a buried cable with a TDR?

It tells you the distance to fault (very well, in fact). If that doesn't
help, keep better records.

Yes, I have several TDR setups...
BUT

since no mention of a fault....If you can put 120V in one end and put
a heater on the other end...

If you don't have a fault there is no need to trace it.

He may need to dig in the general area of the wire but doesn't want to
hit it.

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

Power it up and connect a vacuum cleaner or drill motor
(or any motor that has brushes and sparks); trace it with an
AM radio.


On 11/11/2011 9:51 PM, frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:50:08 -0800, mike wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 03:24:42 -0800, mike wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:03:03 -0800, mike wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:51:03 -0500, frank1492
wrote:

We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
Help much appreciated!
Thank you.
Frank
Get an RF "fox and hound" circuit tracer. With the cable de-energized,
clip the transmitter on one end and trace away.
Time Domain Reflectometer. Measure. Dig. ;-)
I was unaware of that technique. Please elaborate how I could
trace the path of a buried cable with a TDR?
It tells you the distance to fault (very well, in fact). If that doesn't
help, keep better records.
Yes, I have several TDR setups...
BUT

since no mention of a fault....If you can put 120V in one end and put
a heater on the other end...

If you don't have a fault there is no need to trace it.

Maybe YOU don't need to trace it.
The OP stated that HE has a need to trace the path.
Your needs are mostly irrelevant. ;-)

Well, you're right, there. *I* am not going to trace it, but then I never
said I had any interest in doing so. ;-)

Need to Trace Underground Wire
 

On Nov 11, 10:51*pm, frank1492 wrote:
We currently have a Romex cable that was used to feed loudspeakers in
a remote building. The cable is buried probably not more than a foot
underground. We have access to both ends but have need to trace the
path of the cable underground. We can if necessary connect one end to
120V and the other to a high resistance load like a space heater.
* * *What equipment will we need to trace the path of the cable? Is
this easier (and less expensive) to do if the cable is energized? And
if we choose not to purchase the equipment, where would we look for
rentals or for someone to come out to perform the service?
* * *Help much appreciated!
* * *Thank you.
* * * * * *Frank

probably late reply, but for 'free'

power the heater at one end, connect neutral through the buried wire,
run an overground wire from HOT out to the heater.

make certain the overground wire is way away from where the
underground wire is.

while the heater is powered, there will be huge fields around the
unerground wire [and the overground wire, but you know where it is]

Use a cheap ELF meter, or a 100turns of wire on 4 inch diameter form
into a voltmeter. make the plane of the coil follow the expected
direction of the wire. As the plane intercepts the center line of the
buried wire, you will get maximum signal. In a sense the plane will
'point' to the center of the buried wire.

With finesse you will be able to find the wire and estimate its depth.
all with free tools.