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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.
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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/26/2011 9:31 PM, Mikepier wrote:
As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.


Yes, following gfretwell's advice, that outlet can be tapped for the
shower light.
Regarding the recessed fixtu if you use a non metallic trim, it
wouldn't require gfci protection

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.



*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a single
bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be
permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit
by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets
specified in that section.

Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle GFI
protect the ceiling light. I would not put the shower light on a GFI
because I think you will have more nuisance tripping than safety issues.
How easy will it be for someone standing in the tub to touch the 8' ceiling?
Just install a non-metallic shower trim.


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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/27/2011 5:51 AM, John Grabowski wrote:
As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.



*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a
single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom
shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and
(A)(2).

Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling
unit by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle
outlets specified in that section.

Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle
GFI protect the ceiling light.


Well ain't that interesting? It is a direct conflict between the 2 code
sections.

I would argue that 210.11-C-3-exception, which is specifically about
bathroom circuits, and explicitly allows "other equipment" for a single
bathroom, applies.

I would argue that 210.23-A-exception is an unintended conflict.

It is up to the dreaded AHJ.

--
bud--

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On Sep 27, 10:00*am, bud-- wrote:
On 9/27/2011 5:51 AM, John Grabowski wrote:





As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.


My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.


By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.


*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a
single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom
shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and
(A)(2).


Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling
unit by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle
outlets specified in that section.


Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle
GFI protect the ceiling light.


Well ain't that interesting? It is a direct conflict between the 2 code
sections.

I would argue that 210.11-C-3-exception, which is specifically about
bathroom circuits, and explicitly allows "other equipment" for a single
bathroom, applies.

I would argue that 210.23-A-exception is an unintended conflict.

It is up to the dreaded AHJ.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


My reservation would be putting all the lights and all the outlets in
the bathroom on one GFCI, makes it hard to plug in a spare light when
you have to replace a ceiling light. I have that situation, and it is
a pain when the GFCI trips, for whatever reason.


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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/27/2011 6:51 AM, John Grabowski wrote:
As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.



*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a
single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom
shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and
(A)(2).

Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling
unit by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle
outlets specified in that section.

Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle
GFI protect the ceiling light. I would not put the shower light on a GFI
because I think you will have more nuisance tripping than safety issues.
How easy will it be for someone standing in the tub to touch the 8'
ceiling? Just install a non-metallic shower trim.


Damn John, I think you've uncovered one of those Nec anomalies. It does
seem strange to give permission to do something, then take it away. It
also seems like it would be more direct to just state, up front, that
the circuit can only be used for receptacle outlets.



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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.



*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a
single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom
shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and
(A)(2).

Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling
unit by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle
outlets specified in that section.

Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle
GFI protect the ceiling light. I would not put the shower light on a GFI
because I think you will have more nuisance tripping than safety issues.
How easy will it be for someone standing in the tub to touch the 8'
ceiling? Just install a non-metallic shower trim.


Damn John, I think you've uncovered one of those Nec anomalies. It does
seem strange to give permission to do something, then take it away. It
also seems like it would be more direct to just state, up front, that the
circuit can only be used for receptacle outlets.



*Roy when I found this I must have reread it a dozen times thinking that I
was missing something. I agree that it could be written better so that even
an electrician could understand it :-)

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/27/2011 5:31 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
As previously metioned in other posts,I am renovating a bathroom. I
am installing a hi-hat in the tub/shower area and I would like this
to be GFI protected, even though I've heard conflicting advice on
whether I need it or not.

My question is can I tap off the GFI outlet by the sink to do this?
This outlet is on its own, and it will only feed this 1 light.

By the way, the hi-hat is a HALO H7ICT, and it says its approved for
wet locations,so I don't really know if I need a GFI, but I figure
just to be safe I want to do it.


*I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the other guys. Article
210.11(C)(3) Exception states: Where the 20 ampere circuit supplies a
single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom
shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and
(A)(2).

Article 210.23(A) Exception states: The small appliance branch circuits,
laundry circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling
unit by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2) and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle
outlets specified in that section.

Based on that I would have to say that you cannot have the receptacle
GFI protect the ceiling light. I would not put the shower light on a GFI
because I think you will have more nuisance tripping than safety issues.
How easy will it be for someone standing in the tub to touch the 8'
ceiling? Just install a non-metallic shower trim.


Damn John, I think you've uncovered one of those Nec anomalies. It
does seem strange to give permission to do something, then take it
away. It also seems like it would be more direct to just state, up
front, that the circuit can only be used for receptacle outlets.



*Roy when I found this I must have reread it a dozen times thinking that
I was missing something. I agree that it could be written better so that
even an electrician could understand it :-)



Ain't that the truth, who do they think is reading this, rocket scientists?
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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On Sep 27, 6:40*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?


It would appear the answer to that is the code is contradictory.
If it were me, I'd do it because there is no safety issue, it's
perfectly safe. In fact, it's safer than not having a GFCI on
the shower light, which is allowed if it has a non-metalic trim.
So, I'd do it on the theory that the inspector isn't gonna
care. In fact, the inspectors I've dealt with around here
would almost certainly not even notice which specific
circuit it's on when they do the inspection.


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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

"Mikepier" wrote in message
Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?


The electrical code is mainly for safety, but also includes sort of
"optional" things for more economical wiring (you don't have to
include these devices, etc.), and also things which make living with
your electrical system more practible on a daily basis. However
everything winds up reading like a "rule"! And some electrical
inspectors might go by the "exact rule"...

But... Mainly GFCI's are to protect from electrocution. And that would
need to be for electrical outlets where someone could plug in
*anything*. And things plugged in would tend to be hand-held or cords
handled by people - touched by people. Things plugged in could have
frayed electrical cords, be dropped in water, or anything you can
imagine.

Things which are hardwired like a light fixture can only have that one
device connected to the power. And these (if installed correctly) have
all metal parts grounded. And the hot contact on the fixture would be
out of easy reach when replacing the bulb (if installed correctly).
Thus little chance of someone being electrocuted. And no pressing need
to be GFCI protected for safety reasons.

And GFCI's tend to trip frequently. It might be LESS safe in some
circumstances for the GFCI to trip and also shut off the lighting! In
some buildings there are no bathroom windows, so no light and it is
totally dark. The electrical code rules are for *all* situations.

So in my opinion, it would be ok to protect beyond what the electrical
code requires and place the light on a GFCI as well, however I like to
wire the lighting on separate circuits so you have lighting if an
outlet breaker/GFCI trips. Thus I think it would be better to place
the light on a separate GFCI or a separate GFCI breaker/circuit if you
must. And of course I would check with your electrical inspector first
to see if there is any reason he would not allow this.

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not?



No. Lighting outlets must be on a separate circuit from receptacle outlets
in the bathroom.

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

So in my opinion, it would be ok to protect beyond what the electrical
code requires and place the light on a GFCI as well, however I like to
wire the lighting on separate circuits so you have lighting if an
outlet breaker/GFCI trips. Thus I think it would be better to place
the light on a separate GFCI or a separate GFCI breaker/circuit if you
must. And of course I would check with your electrical inspector first
to see if there is any reason he would not allow this.


The shower hi-hat is on a seperate circuit than the vanity light and 2
other hi-hats in the bathroom.So even if the GFI did trip, there would
still be light in the bathroom.
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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

"Mikepier" wrote in message
So in my opinion, it would be ok to protect beyond what the
electrical
code requires and place the light on a GFCI as well, however I like
to
wire the lighting on separate circuits so you have lighting if an
outlet breaker/GFCI trips. Thus I think it would be better to place
the light on a separate GFCI or a separate GFCI breaker/circuit if
you
must. And of course I would check with your electrical inspector
first
to see if there is any reason he would not allow this.


The shower hi-hat is on a seperate circuit than the vanity light and
2
other hi-hats in the bathroom.So even if the GFI did trip, there
would
still be light in the bathroom.


Then just ask your local electrical inspector and see what he says.
You can usually go into the electrical inspectors office at certain
times and ask questions. Let us know what he says please.

Another thing to consider is if someone else buys your house at a
later time. What if that hi-hat is not working due to the outlet GFCI
being tripped? That could send someone on a wild goose chase trying to
troubleshoot it! (As bathrooms are not typically wired that way, so it
would not be expected.)

The way around that is to leave a note about this special wiring in
the breaker panel. Or to place the hi-hat on a separate breaker which
is a GFCI breaker.

Or to place the outlet and light on the same GFCI breaker and then use
a regular non-GFCI outlet. (No note needed in that case.) Then what
someone would do if the light was not working would be to check the
breaker and/or bulb - Regular troubleshooting procedure.

That is another thing to consider with electrical design and
specifically GFCI's. I see a LOT of posts from people trying to figure
out why an outlet is not working. There might be say 4 outside
outlets, the outlet in the front of the house is not working, and it
is controlled by a GFCI in the back which is tripped. People don't
think to look there! Better would be a GFCI breaker for all outside
outlets. Or for each outlet to be its own GFCI (and source power for
each coming from the regular breaker NOT downstream/load side of other
GFCI's of course...)

If you ask me, they should do away with the GFCI load side connections
entirely! This causes regular homeowners all sorts of trouble. No
problem for electricians who understand this stuff. But most people
are not electricians. And that would not be a safety thing, rather a
"making daily living easier" type of thing...

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?



No. Lighting outlets must be on a separate circuit from receptacle
outlets
in the bathroom.


You better hear that from your l.ocal AHJ because most think
210.11(C)(3) exception applies. I have heard it in dozens of code
classes and virtually everywhere it was discussed online.
As long as it only serves one bathroom the 20a circuits can serve all
the loads in that bathroom. This idea that 210.11(C)(3) exception is
not also an exception to 210.23(A) exception has only come up here in
my experience.

The language in 210.11(C)(3) exception is very specific

"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom,
outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be
permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."



*It seems to be common knowledge around here as well. They should clarify
receptacle outlets and lighting outlets. Looking at the definition of
"Equipment", it does specify luminares. One of these exceptions has to go!



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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/28/2011 11:40 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:10:14 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?


No. Lighting outlets must be on a separate circuit from receptacle
outlets
in the bathroom.

You better hear that from your l.ocal AHJ because most think
210.11(C)(3) exception applies. I have heard it in dozens of code
classes and virtually everywhere it was discussed online.
As long as it only serves one bathroom the 20a circuits can serve all
the loads in that bathroom. This idea that 210.11(C)(3) exception is
not also an exception to 210.23(A) exception has only come up here in
my experience.

The language in 210.11(C)(3) exception is very specific

"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom,
outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be
permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."



*It seems to be common knowledge around here as well. They should clarify
receptacle outlets and lighting outlets. Looking at the definition of
"Equipment", it does specify luminares. One of these exceptions has to go!


I haven't looked at the ROP but I bet NFPA will say 210.23(A) ex
references 210.11 A requirements so that 210.11 exception alters the
language in 210.23(A)ex.


I think was an 'unanticipated consequence' and nobody saw the conflict.
Nice catch John.


I suppose I could look it up but this has been unaltered in several
cycles. If I get a minute I will take a peek.


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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?


No. Lighting outlets must be on a separate circuit from receptacle
outlets
in the bathroom.

You better hear that from your l.ocal AHJ because most think
210.11(C)(3) exception applies. I have heard it in dozens of code
classes and virtually everywhere it was discussed online.
As long as it only serves one bathroom the 20a circuits can serve all
the loads in that bathroom. This idea that 210.11(C)(3) exception is
not also an exception to 210.23(A) exception has only come up here in
my experience.

The language in 210.11(C)(3) exception is very specific

"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom,
outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be
permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."


*It seems to be common knowledge around here as well. They should
clarify
receptacle outlets and lighting outlets. Looking at the definition of
"Equipment", it does specify luminares. One of these exceptions has to
go!


I haven't looked at the ROP but I bet NFPA will say 210.23(A) ex
references 210.11 A requirements so that 210.11 exception alters the
language in 210.23(A)ex.


I think was an 'unanticipated consequence' and nobody saw the conflict.
Nice catch John.



*I'm wondering how many inspectors have picked up on this conflict?

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Default Bathroom GFI question.Can I tap off of it for a shower hi-hat?

On 9/30/2011 6:19 AM, John Grabowski wrote:
Can someone decipher what all this means? Am I allowed to do this or
not?


No. Lighting outlets must be on a separate circuit from receptacle
outlets
in the bathroom.

You better hear that from your l.ocal AHJ because most think
210.11(C)(3) exception applies. I have heard it in dozens of code
classes and virtually everywhere it was discussed online.
As long as it only serves one bathroom the 20a circuits can serve all
the loads in that bathroom. This idea that 210.11(C)(3) exception is
not also an exception to 210.23(A) exception has only come up here in
my experience.

The language in 210.11(C)(3) exception is very specific

"Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom,
outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be
permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)."


*It seems to be common knowledge around here as well. They should
clarify
receptacle outlets and lighting outlets. Looking at the definition of
"Equipment", it does specify luminares. One of these exceptions has
to go!

I haven't looked at the ROP but I bet NFPA will say 210.23(A) ex
references 210.11 A requirements so that 210.11 exception alters the
language in 210.23(A)ex.


I think was an 'unanticipated consequence' and nobody saw the
conflict. Nice catch John.



*I'm wondering how many inspectors have picked up on this conflict?


gfretwell seems pretty well connected to the inspector mafia... er..
community. If inspectors had found it there would have been a code change.

You may become famous.

--
bud--

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On Sep 28, 11:38*am, "Bill" wrote:
"Mikepier" wrote in message
So in my opinion, it would be ok to protect beyond what the
electrical
code requires and place the light on a GFCI as well, however I like
to
wire the lighting on separate circuits so you have lighting if an
outlet breaker/GFCI trips. Thus I think it would be better to place
the light on a separate GFCI or a separate GFCI breaker/circuit if
you
must. And of course I would check with your electrical inspector
first
to see if there is any reason he would not allow this.


The shower hi-hat is on a seperate circuit than the vanity light and
2
other hi-hats in the bathroom.So even if the GFI did trip, there
would
still be light in the bathroom.


Then just ask your local electrical inspector and see what he says.
You can usually go into the electrical inspectors office at certain
times and ask questions. Let us know what he says please.

Another thing to consider is if someone else buys your house at a
later time. What if that hi-hat is not working due to the outlet GFCI
being tripped? That could send someone on a wild goose chase trying to
troubleshoot it! (As bathrooms are not typically wired that way, so it
would not be expected.)

The way around that is to leave a note about this special wiring in
the breaker panel. Or to place the hi-hat on a separate breaker which
is a GFCI breaker.

Or to place the outlet and light on the same GFCI breaker and then use
a regular non-GFCI outlet. (No note needed in that case.) Then what
someone would do if the light was not working would be to check the
breaker and/or bulb - Regular troubleshooting procedure.

That is another thing to consider with electrical design and
specifically GFCI's. I see a LOT of posts from people trying to figure
out why an outlet is not working. There might be say 4 outside
outlets, the outlet in the front of the house is not working, and it
is controlled by a GFCI in the back which is tripped. People don't
think to look there! Better would be a GFCI breaker for all outside
outlets. Or for each outlet to be its own GFCI (and source power for
each coming from the regular breaker NOT downstream/load side of other
GFCI's of course...)

If you ask me, they should do away with the GFCI load side connections
entirely! This causes regular homeowners all sorts of trouble. No
problem for electricians who understand this stuff. But most people
are not electricians. And that would not be a safety thing, rather a
"making daily living easier" type of thing...


That's no biggie, just tag the Hi Hat Fixture & Electrical Box with
some of the GFCI Protected Circuit stickers.
Safety need not be understood by everyone, as long as it is effective.
TGITM
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