Was I overcharged?
 

Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Was I overcharged?
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Anthony
wrote:

Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks
Well, IF the man works for $65 per hour (that would sound reasonable
for NYC), 12 hours of LABOUR is $780 - add to that the backer board,
tile, adhesive, grout, wiring supplies etc, I'd say the price was , at
the very least, fair.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 19, 3:50*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Anthony
wrote:



Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

* Well, IF the man works for $65 per hour (that would sound reasonable
for NYC), 12 hours of LABOUR is $780 - add to that the backer board,
tile, adhesive, grout, wiring supplies etc, I'd say the price was , at
the very least, fair.

Not sure if your saying that he bought the backer board,tile,adhesive,
( he did not use grout ) wiring supplies etc? I purchased all those
items. to the tune of $1000 approx, which also included a $325 kitchen
hood.

Was I overcharged?
 

On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:
Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Prices in the downstate NY area are going to be in the $100 per hr
range. If he gave you a price that included work that ultimately wasn't
done, his bill should be less than the quoted price. Unless there were
other things done, that hadn't been included

Was I overcharged?
 

One aspect you didn't include in your figures is the time he spent,
away from your house, to think of the design and game plan of attack.
One can't just show up and do a job with no plans specific to your
house, though his forethought about the vent opening may have had to
be altered. In remodeling, there are almost always unexpected issues,
as the vent issue, that arise.

I agree, that sounds like reasonably priced work. If the work is
excellent, you might keep his number handy, for future work. It's not
always easy to find a good craftsman/expert.

Sonny

Was I overcharged?
 

"Anthony" wrote
He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done.

...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference.

Makes a huge difference.

I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall.

12 hours on the job correlates to about 16 hours total. Who paid for the
dumping of the waste? It has been a while since I've done that kind of
work, but at today's rates, I'd be about $1200 + material and expenses, such
as dumping. This is outside of NY in a more rural setting. In the city, it
is probably fair.

Considering that he did not make the 7" hole, he should have knocked
something off, unless he did some other extra work.

Was I overcharged?
 

I don't understand .If the range hood requires a 7" round duct, and he
put in only a 4" duct, it sounds as if he did something wrong.
What kind of range hood do you have? And what are the specs of the
hood?

Was I overcharged?
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT), Anthony
wrote:

On Jun 19, 3:50Â*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Anthony
wrote:



Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. Â*so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Â* Well, IF the man works for $65 per hour (that would sound reasonable
for NYC), 12 hours of LABOUR is $780 - add to that the backer board,
tile, adhesive, grout, wiring supplies etc, I'd say the price was , at
the very least, fair.

Not sure if your saying that he bought the backer board,tile,adhesive,
( he did not use grout ) wiring supplies etc? I purchased all those
items. to the tune of $1000 approx, which also included a $325 kitchen
hood.
Then he must be charging more like $166 per hour - which is a bit
over the top even for NYC, I would think.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:20:15 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier
wrote:

I don't understand .If the range hood requires a 7" round duct, and he
put in only a 4" duct, it sounds as if he did something wrong.
What kind of range hood do you have? And what are the specs of the
hood?
I'd supect it was a "convertible" hood and he installed it ventless.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 19, 11:20*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:20:15 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

wrote:
I don't understand .If the range hood requires a 7" round duct, and he
put in only a 4" duct, it sounds as if he did something wrong.
What kind of range hood do you have? And what are the specs of the
hood?

*I'd supect it was a "convertible" hood and he installed it ventless.

Sorry I misread the original post. The contractor never drilled a hole.

Was I overcharged?
 

On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:
Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 7:29*am, RBM wrote:
On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:



Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 19, 10:11*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote

*He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done.
...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference.

Makes a huge difference.

*I do not know what the going rates are for such a

job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall.

12 hours on the job correlates to about 16 hours total. *Who paid for the
dumping of the waste? *It has been a while since I've done that kind of
work, but at today's rates, I'd be about $1200 + material and expenses, such
as dumping. *This is outside of NY in a more rural setting. *In the city, it
is probably fair.

Considering that he did not make the 7" hole, he should have knocked
something off, unless he did some other extra work.

As for others who mentioned 16 hours total of work , in my math 8 and
4, equals 12. His labor was $2000, i spent $1000 for tiles, drywall,
range hood, paste and all that goes with installing tiles in a 30sq.ft
area with no grouting., total $3000. The hood is a Broan Allure QS2
series 36" in length...Paid for dumping? Isn't that part of the
contract..? BTW, what waste are we talking about? The Formica was
placed outside my home where the sanitation depart. picked it
up..free, so he had no dumping to do...also, all those extra screws
and bx cable and connectors that were left over, i gave to him...i had
no personal use for them.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 8:50*am, Anthony wrote:
On Jun 19, 10:11*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





"Anthony" wrote

*He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done.
...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference.

Makes a huge difference.

*I do not know what the going rates are for such a

job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall.

12 hours on the job correlates to about 16 hours total. *Who paid for the
dumping of the waste? *It has been a while since I've done that kind of
work, but at today's rates, I'd be about $1200 + material and expenses, such
as dumping. *This is outside of NY in a more rural setting. *In the city, it
is probably fair.

Considering that he did not make the 7" hole, he should have knocked
something off, unless he did some other extra work.

As for others who mentioned 16 hours total of work , in my math 8 and
4, equals 12. His labor was $2000, *i spent *$1000 for tiles, drywall,
range hood, paste and all that goes with installing tiles in a 30sq.ft
area with no grouting., total $3000. The hood is a Broan Allure QS2
series *36" in length...Paid for dumping? Isn't that part of the
contract..? BTW, what waste are we talking about? The Formica was
placed outside my home where the sanitation depart. picked it
up..free, so he had no dumping to do...also, all those extra screws
and bx cable and connectors that were left over, i gave to him...i had
no personal use for them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did he give you a $2k quote to start with? I'm guessing he installed
the hood but configured it for recirculation instead of venting
outside?

If he gave you a $2k quote and that included making a hole in the
exterior wall then he probably should knock a little off. But I
wouldn't expect much, a couple hundred dollars maybe.

You don't make it clear if he gave you an estimate up front?

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 8:41*am, Anthony wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:29*am, RBM wrote:









On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:

Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The OP said his guy tapped off of the outlet that was already behind
the range. Your statement above seems to be referring to tapping off
of a countertop outlet. Please clarify what you wrote and what is
allowed/prohibited so there's no misunderstanding.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? *As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

Not unless he is a licensed electrician. Different license from
whatever NYC requires for home improvement.

Reading your stance from here in the cheap seats, you're having
buyer's remorse and looking for a way to knock down the price after
the fact. You agreed to the price, you said the guy did beautiful
work, but now you want to squeeze him after it's done. There's a word
for that - "schmuck". Maybe you know it. The guy gave you a lump
sum, not a time and materials quote, so it is irrelevant how many
hours he spent doing the work. You could have said no to the guy's
number up front - nobody held a gun to your head. If he didn't do
some work, then the number needs to be adjusted, but going on a
fishing expedition to find other ways that you can beat up on the guy,
and asking for help on how to do it, is a weaselly way to go.

R

Was I overcharged?
 

"Anthony" wrote in message
...
On Jun 19, 10:11 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote

He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done.
...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference.

Makes a huge difference.

I do not know what the going rates are for such a

job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall.

12 hours on the job correlates to about 16 hours total. Who paid for the
dumping of the waste? It has been a while since I've done that kind of
work, but at today's rates, I'd be about $1200 + material and expenses,
such
as dumping. This is outside of NY in a more rural setting. In the city,
it
is probably fair.

Considering that he did not make the 7" hole, he should have knocked
something off, unless he did some other extra work.

As for others who mentioned 16 hours total of work , in my math 8 and
4, equals 12.

You missed the point. 12 hrs _on the job_ correlates to 16 hrs, and I think
that's a bit on the low side. Surely he spent at least 2 hrs per day travel
time & getting the appropriate tools in order.

Was I overcharged?
 

"Anthony" wrote in message
...
..

and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

An electrical license must be held. I know of no place where a GC (general
contractor) can do electrical work, without an electrical license. Usually,
a GC subcontracts electrical work out to a _licensed electrician_. When I
was a GC, my insurance would not have covered any electrical work performed
for electrical.

Was I overcharged?
 

Anthony wrote:

....


As for others who mentioned 16 hours total of work , in my math 8 and
4, equals 12. His labor was $2000, ...



You don't break the charges down but the 12 hours was at your site
doesn't include his travel and other overhead charges--around here, even
plumbers charge hourly for the truck sitting in the driveway any more.

I've no idea what even base labor rates would be in NYC, but for a
skilled craftsman anywhere from $100-150/hr or so fully burdened doesn't
surprise me at all.

--

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 9:13*am, "Nanez" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote in message
On Jun 19, 10:11 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote

He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done.
...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference.

Makes a huge difference.

I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall.

12 hours on the job correlates to about 16 hours total. Who paid for the
dumping of the waste? It has been a while since I've done that kind of
work, but at today's rates, I'd be about $1200 + material and expenses,
such as dumping. This is outside of NY in a more rural setting. In the city,
it is probably fair.

Considering that he did not make the 7" hole, he should have knocked
something off, unless he did some other extra work.
As for others who mentioned 16 hours total of work , in my math 8 and
4, equals 12.

You missed the point. 12 hrs _on the job_ correlates to 16 hrs, and I think
that's a bit on the low side. Surely he spent at least 2 hrs per day travel
time & getting the appropriate tools in order.

The hours spent are irrelevant. The OP did not ask about a time and
materials accounting. He's trying to reverse engineer the pricing of
lump sum work after it's done. The work got done - beautifully - so
it's extremely unlikely that the contractor broke in and did the work
while the OP was away. The OP agreed to the price that he thought was
a little bit high, and now that the work is done, he's trying to
squeeze the contractor. I am not convinced that the OP has enough
wherewithal in the home improvement experience bank to make a
determination of what constitutes 'beautiful' work, but that's another
issue.

As far as NYC pricing, I had a buddy that had a wood closet door
installed in an existing metal jamb, and he provided the hardware.
The contractor picked up a used door and installed it in a morning and
charged $900. He paid it, and I think he was nuts, but people charge
what they can get.

The OP's post starts off with a misleading subject line - "Was I
overcharged?" No. No he wasn't overcharged. There's no set price
for what was done. The OP got a number from a contractor, gave the go
ahead (admittedly with some reservations), and the work was done
beautifully. What's his beef? That the contractor didn't stretch it
out to three or four days to make it seem like he was getting his
money's worth? Sheesh. If the OP wants a Buyer's Protection policy,
he should try eBay.

R

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 9:17*am, "Nanez" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote in message

and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

An electrical license must be held. I know of no place where a GC (general
contractor) can do electrical work, without an electrical license. Usually,
a GC subcontracts electrical work out to a _licensed electrician_. *When I
was a GC, my insurance would not have covered any electrical work performed
for electrical.

Yes, that is absolutely true. I am not fond of electrical. I've done
a small amount myself, but my skills lie in other areas, so I use the
same couple or three electricians that I've been using for 25 years.
In the "real" world, handymen do electrical work all of the time, and,
yes, they are not supposed to do it. To hazard a conservative guess,
I'd say that at least half of the handyman out there would have
absolutely no qualms about adding an outlet or wiring a ceiling fan.

In the OP's situation, if the contractor had hired an electrician, how
much do you think would have been tacked on to the $2000 bill? I'd
guess three hundred as an absolute minimum, and an extra day (or
week?) added to the schedule until the electrician finally gets around
to taking care of the huge single outlet retirement project. ;)

R

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 9:17*am, "Nanez" wrote:
"Anthony" wrote in message

and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover the electrical issue?

An electrical license must be held. I know of no place where a GC (general
contractor) can do electrical work, without an electrical license. Usually,
a GC subcontracts electrical work out to a _licensed electrician_. *When I
was a GC, my insurance would not have covered any electrical work performed
for electrical.

It's interesting that the OP is gathering more ammunition for his War
of the Weasels, when he's not above ****ing around with electrical
stuff himself, when he doesn't know his ass from his elbow and
shouldn't be mucking about with a screwdriver. Here's a post of his
from a while back - he's a nym shifter - Boothbay.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...22de2972c989d#

R

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 9:37*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Jun 20, 9:17*am, "Nanez" wrote:

"Anthony" wrote in message

and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

An electrical license must be held. I know of no place where a GC (general
contractor) can do electrical work, without an electrical license. Usually,


In the OP's situation, if the contractor had hired an electrician, how
much do you think would have been tacked on to the $2000 bill? *I'd
guess three hundred as an absolute minimum, and an extra day (or
week?) added to the schedule until the electrician finally gets around
to taking care of the huge single outlet retirement project. *;)

R

Well, that $2000 labor included the electrical connection cause i
asked him to do it. He did use bx cable which i believe was the right
way of doing it. A handy man might of done it too, but without a bx
cable.

Was I overcharged?
 

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...


The OP's post starts off with a misleading subject line - "Was I
overcharged?" No. No he wasn't overcharged. There's no set price
for what was done. The OP got a number from a contractor, gave the go
ahead (admittedly with some reservations), and the work was done
beautifully. What's his beef? That the contractor didn't stretch it
out to three or four days to make it seem like he was getting his
money's worth? Sheesh. If the OP wants a Buyer's Protection policy,
he should try eBay.

You're absolutely correct.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 8:58*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Jun 20, 8:41*am, Anthony wrote:



On Jun 20, 7:29*am, RBM wrote:

On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:

Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. *so that part was not done.. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot..
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The OP said his guy tapped off of the outlet that was already behind
the range. *Your statement above seems to be referring to tapping off
of a countertop outlet. *Please clarify what you wrote and what is
allowed/prohibited so there's no misunderstanding.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? *As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

Not unless he is a licensed electrician. *Different license from
whatever NYC requires for home improvement.

Reading your stance from here in the cheap seats, you're having
buyer's remorse and looking for a way to knock down the price after
the fact. *You agreed to the price, you said the guy did beautiful
work, but now you want to squeeze him after it's done. *There's a word
for that - "schmuck". *Maybe you know it. *The guy gave you a lump
sum, not a time and materials quote, so it is irrelevant how many
hours he spent doing the work. *You could have said no to the guy's
number up front - nobody held a gun to your head. *If he didn't do
some work, then the number needs to be adjusted, but going on a
fishing expedition to find other ways that you can beat up on the guy,
and asking for help on how to do it, is a weaselly way to go.

R

I am merely asking as a uneducated consumer in this field. I am not
trying to squeeze him. Its done and over,but i was considering him for
another job i need to be done and just wanted to know if those were
typical rates. The overcharge statement was only related to the part
of not doing that hole he said he would do into my cabinets, and then
to the outside wall, which was never done. The $2000 charge included
that part of the work and obviously, the more intense work, that was
why he was charging me that amount. I merely thought that he would
have said " i know i was suppose to do this hole bit and included in
the price...but not being able to do so, i would lower my fee."

Was I overcharged?
 

In article
,
Anthony wrote:

On Jun 20, 9:37*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Jun 20, 9:17*am, "Nanez" wrote:

"Anthony" wrote in message

and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

An electrical license must be held. I know of no place where a GC
(general
contractor) can do electrical work, without an electrical license.
Usually,


In the OP's situation, if the contractor had hired an electrician, how
much do you think would have been tacked on to the $2000 bill? *I'd
guess three hundred as an absolute minimum, and an extra day (or
week?) added to the schedule until the electrician finally gets around
to taking care of the huge single outlet retirement project. *;)

R

Well, that $2000 labor included the electrical connection cause i
asked him to do it. He did use bx cable which i believe was the right
way of doing it. A handy man might of done it too, but without a bx
cable.

A couple of respondents have accused you of trying to gather support to
re-negotiate the price now that the work is done and paid for. But I
never saw you say that, which leads me to the question that I had
thought about asking earlier but didn't: What are you going to do with
the information, if you decide that you *were* overcharged? I can think
of several reasons to want to know in hindsight, other than
re-negotiation.

Was I overcharged?
 

On 6/20/2011 8:58 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Jun 20, 8:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:29 am, wrote:









On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:

Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The OP said his guy tapped off of the outlet that was already behind
the range. Your statement above seems to be referring to tapping off
of a countertop outlet. Please clarify what you wrote and what is
allowed/prohibited so there's no misunderstanding.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

Not unless he is a licensed electrician. Different license from
whatever NYC requires for home improvement.

Reading your stance from here in the cheap seats, you're having
buyer's remorse and looking for a way to knock down the price after
the fact. You agreed to the price, you said the guy did beautiful
work, but now you want to squeeze him after it's done. There's a word
for that - "schmuck". Maybe you know it. The guy gave you a lump
sum, not a time and materials quote, so it is irrelevant how many
hours he spent doing the work. You could have said no to the guy's
number up front - nobody held a gun to your head. If he didn't do
some work, then the number needs to be adjusted, but going on a
fishing expedition to find other ways that you can beat up on the guy,
and asking for help on how to do it, is a weaselly way to go.

R


I don't have any problem with the guy's quoted price, just that it
included this 7" hole in brick, and running duct work, which was never
done. I also question his competence if he intended to run a 4" duct for
a kitchen range hood. The electrical stuff is imo a fairly minor issue,
but as you point out, NYC requires an "electrical" license, not a
contractor's license.

Was I overcharged?
 

On 6/20/2011 8:41 AM, Anthony wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:29 am, wrote:
On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:



Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?

Like I said, it's not a big deal, but the electrical code doesn't allow
tapping that outlet to feed a range hood

Was I overcharged?
 

RBM wrote:

....


Like I said, it's not a big deal, but the electrical code doesn't allow
tapping that outlet to feed a range hood


Yeah, and that's one of those places where assuming the circuit isn't
otherwise overloaded and the fan isn't a 3hp industrial unit NEC seems
perhaps overly conservative in existing work in a cost/benefit ratio. A
typical home range hood isn't much different than the mixer motor/light
that would be plugged into the outlet, anyway.

New work, sure. Old work that doesn't require a much effort to run, ok.
Old work that's more typical I agree w/ the "it's not a big deal"
assessment (w/ the previous caveats).

But, of course, it isn't in Code so I didn't say any of the above... :)

--

Was I overcharged?
 

Anthony wrote:

....


I am merely asking as a uneducated consumer in this field. I am not
trying to squeeze him. Its done and over,but i was considering him for
another job i need to be done and just wanted to know if those were
typical rates. The overcharge statement was only related to the part
of not doing that hole he said he would do into my cabinets, and then
to the outside wall, which was never done. The $2000 charge included
that part of the work and obviously, the more intense work, that was
why he was charging me that amount. I merely thought that he would
have said " i know i was suppose to do this hole bit and included in
the price...but not being able to do so, i would lower my fee."


Was going to add above that while I don't think the hourly rate is
terribly out of line for NYC, that's on basis of small jobs that are
more costly to the workman than are larger projects; I'd expect the
hourly rate to be significantly lower for a job that was a month, say.

I'd presume this actually was done as a fixed price bid and as such
would not be terribly surprised he didn't drop the bill for a small
task, particularly because he probably ran into at least some
complication elsewhere during the job; nothing goes entirely as planned
in old work.

Also, I'd expect the effort he planned for the original hole _probably_
wasn't as big an effort as you may think; typically homeowners/diy'ers
way overestimate the actual work in making structural changes. For
example, they'll go to all kinds of extremes to avoid cutting a hole in
sheetrock when it wouldn't take a tenth of the total time to simply make
the hole and repair the wall/ceiling the way a pro would approach it.
Similarly, the concept/effort of knocking a hole thru a brick wall
probably wasn't any different to this guy than would have been to just
cut a hole through a frame siding. A hammer and chisel and a few blows
and you gots a hole... :)

--

Was I overcharged?
 

"Anthony" wrote in message
news:35e7d35b-8280-4ca5-9f10-stuff snipped

I am merely asking as a uneducated consumer in this field. I am not
trying to squeeze him. Its done and over,but i was considering him for
another job i need to be done and just wanted to know if those were
typical rates. The overcharge statement was only related to the part
of not doing that hole he said he would do into my cabinets, and then
to the outside wall, which was never done. The $2000 charge included
that part of the work and obviously, the more intense work, that was
why he was charging me that amount. I merely thought that he would
have said " i know i was suppose to do this hole bit and included in
the price...but not being able to do so, i would lower my fee."

And he was probably surprised you took his first offer. The bottom line
here is simple contract law. You had a contract to perform certain work,
part of which was not performed. When you have no contract the theory of
"quantum meruit" might apply,

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1692

But you *have* a contract (I assume) and if you sued, a judge would be
likely to rebate the portion of your payment that could be attributed to the
work not performed. The problem is, suing is very likely to be a wash.
What you gained would be eaten up in costs. I'd just approach him and say
just what I've said. You agreed to pay for something that wasn't done.
That means a refund of some sort is in order. If it were to go to court,
you'd probably have to get a separate quote just for the work that wasn't
performed so the judge would have some idea what the unperformed work is
worth.

I think you made an error by not bargaining right from square one - saying
$2000 is more than I expected (or was much higher than my other two quotes -
which you should have gotten) and offering something lower. Carleton
Sheets, the real estate mogul said his fortune was based on offering
outrageously low prices on houses that buyers, to his surpise, ended up
taking. He said other potential buyers were worried about how the seller
would perceive them if they lowballed an offer so they didn't and just moved
on.

Contractors often aim quite high and are surprised there's no haggling. I
once quote an hourly rate to a law firm that I thought was outrageously
high. A junior associate told me "they were willing to pay twice that!" So
I never again lowballed my own worth and regularly lowballed everyone
else's. It's just the capitalistic way. By cheap, sell dear. Once you've
established you're too polite to haggle, don't expect your contractor to
offer a rebate without you asking for one. In legal terms, you're entitled
to money back, as I understand your contract, because you paid for work not
performed.

At this stage I would simply say, listen, I paid what you asked but you
didn't do what you promised you would. I would appreciate an adjustment in
the final price, especially since I've discovered the electrical hookup may
be illegal and may have to be redone by an electrician to meet code
requirements, a situation that could affect his license if it is indeed
against code to pull a wire from an outlet box to the hood.

FWIW, recirculating fans are not worth much compared to an outside exhaust,
at least IMHO, a conclusion you could come to on your own quite soon.

--
Bobby G.

Was I overcharged?
 

"dpb" wrote in message ...
RBM wrote:

...


Like I said, it's not a big deal, but the electrical code doesn't allow
tapping that outlet to feed a range hood


Yeah, and that's one of those places where assuming the circuit isn't
otherwise overloaded and the fan isn't a 3hp industrial unit NEC seems
perhaps overly conservative in existing work in a cost/benefit ratio. A
typical home range hood isn't much different than the mixer motor/light
that would be plugged into the outlet, anyway.

New work, sure. Old work that doesn't require a much effort to run, ok.
Old work that's more typical I agree w/ the "it's not a big deal"
assessment (w/ the previous caveats).

But, of course, it isn't in Code so I didn't say any of the above... :)

Yes, and if it isn't code, it isn't done in what courts call a "workmanlike
matter" and leaves the contractor vulnerable to Anthony hiring someone else
to make it code and the courts making him the original contractor pay for
it. Could even cost him his license to do tile work if exceeded the bounds
of his license.

--
Bobby G.

Was I overcharged?
 

On Jun 20, 10:14*am, Anthony wrote:

I am merely asking as a uneducated consumer in this field. I am not
trying to squeeze him. Its done and over,but i was considering him for
another job i need *to be *done and just wanted to know if those were
typical rates. The overcharge statement was only related to the part
of not doing that hole he said he would do into my cabinets, and then
to the outside wall, which was never done. The $2000 charge included
that part of the work and obviously, the more intense work, that was
why he was charging me that amount. *I merely thought that he would
have said " i know i was suppose to do this hole bit and included in
the price...but not being able to do so, i would lower my fee."

If he didn't do something that was included in the original quote, you
shouldn't pay him for that. You should have negotiated how much the
left out part was worth, and deducted it. A hole in brick on the
first floor over a driveway is a bit, a hole in brick on the third
floor over a sidewalk is a much bigger bit. His idea of what it's
worth will vary from yours, and you try to meet somewhere in the
middle so both people are right at the mildly happy/unhappy line.

When you say done and over it is still not clear whether you already
paid him. If so, then that was your mistake - not what the guy
originally quoted you...but that was also a mistake in that you
thought it was high and let it slide. The time to negotiate a change
in price is always as soon as possible. The time to question a If you
leave it to the end, he's already mentally spending the money and
it'll be harder. If there are costs or savings that are not yet
determined

Was I overcharged?
 

In article , Nanez wrote:
...snipped...
You missed the point. 12 hrs _on the job_ correlates to 16 hrs, and I think
that's a bit on the low side. Surely he spent at least 2 hrs per day travel
time & getting the appropriate tools in order.


It may be customary in some areas for some contractors to charge labor
time for travel hours, and if they don't do so explicitly, they will
build that cost into their overall pricing. On the other hand, most
workers don't get paid for their commuting time and I think this is the
perspective most consumers have.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

Was I overcharged?
 

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Robert Green wrote:

Yes, and if it isn't code, it isn't done in what courts call a
"workmanlike
matter" and leaves the contractor vulnerable to Anthony hiring someone
else
to make it code and the courts making him the original contractor pay
for
it. Could even cost him his license to do tile work if exceeded the
bounds
of his license.
...


OK, so now we got the usenet lawyers going... :)

Let me be clear, I am not a lawyer and I am not offering legal advice. (-:
I'm just describing what I've seen in the many years I've worked with
lawyers in a support capacity in addition to my own personal experience with
lawsuits of this nature.

Assuming for a moment the OP might even halfway consider such an action,
assuming the facts are indeed as presented and there's not some
unknown relief owing to particular circumstances, the original
contractor always has the option to make "corrective relief".

Where did you ever get that idea? You must be a contractor! (-: There are
plenty of situations where that's just not true.

I don't believe the OP has unlimited right to expect restitution for a
3rd party
unless he's had no satisfaction from the first dude first...

You believe wrong. If the first contractor did the job in an
"unworkman-like" manner (and that can be proved to the judge), the courts
will almost never force the plaintiff to reuse that original contractor to
correct the work because he's demonstrated his incompetence. A report from
a NYC housing inspector regarding the outlet and licensing issue would be
all it took to end that contractor's right to any "corrective relief." The
OP could come by that with a phone call and perhaps a copying fee.

Think about it. Would YOU want an obvious incompetent back to finish or
rework the job? I know this surprises and disturbs many contractors when
they learn that in some situations, they will be both unable to correct
their mistakes and in fact have to pay for whatever they did that another
contractor will have to undo or repair. Seen it a dozen times or more.
I'll look up the cites if you insist, but it's pretty standard stuff that is
really common sense.

In this case, if the contractor needed an electrical license to perform the
work but did it without one, it's game over, dude and a lawsuit could be the
least of his professional problems. If all the tile needs to be pulled and
redone to bring it up to code, who do you think *should* pay for it? The
homeowner or the guy who made the mistake in the first place? If you do
work you're not competent to perform, no court will order a homeowner to
"give him another chance."

If the wiring problem is indeed not up to code, and the contractor had no
license or right to be doing electrical work, he does NOT get a second bite
of the apple. Plain and simple. He has already demonstrated his
incompetence and disregard for the law. Courts also realize that once a
contractor is sued, the relationship between the two has soured pretty
seriously. I *know* guys in the trade just HATE to hear this, but that's
how things work. Why is this so? Because there are plenty of
fly-by-nighters who think they are more competent than they actually are.

For some reason I assume you're a licensed sparky, DPB. Even if you're not,
let's assume you are. Is it fair that some guy who bypasses what you had to
go through to get your license is taking work away from you illegally? The
courts don't think it's fair because they are part of the system that
licenses professionals in the first place. It's likely that the lack of
license alone will sink the contractor's case.

The time, as you suggest, to try again to make it right is BEFORE you're
dragged into court. Failure to settle with the plaintiff before you reach
court indicates that the two parties cannot get along. Judges know better
than to expect two people who now probably hate each other and couldn't
settle this between themselves outside of court to work it out because a
judge ordered it so.

What happens then? The contractor, if found liable, pays to make it right
with the plaintiff being able to hire a licensed contractor of his choice to
rip out and redo the work (at reasonable rates, of course). Lots of
contractors don't know how frequently they expose themselves to this sort of
situation.

The contractor in this case appears to owe the return of monies paid for
work not performed. Very simple. People can imagine all sorts of set-offs
like travel time, extra work performed not specified, etc. but the written
contract always controls. Some people may think because he paid the bill
the OP has no options. That's not true, either. It could be easily argued
that puts him in a better place because he did not resort to legal
self-help. It's always better to pay in full and sue than to hold back
money and be sued. The former indicates that money is not the object, but
the quality of the work is.

Believing in the right to "correct relief" is about as common as the guy who
hits your car and then expects you to go to his brother's "Body Shop and
Tattoo Parlor" to fix it. No court will ever demand an accident victim use
the defendant's family or friends to do the work "on the cheap." It just
doesn't work that way.

It's why properly written contracts and job change orders are so important.
Yet amazingly they are so overlooked - until a lawsuit where everyone learns
what they *should* have done. Do a poor enough job and you not only don't
get paid, you may get to contribute more than the job was worth to set
things right.

God help the contractor who has NO contract and is subect to "quantum
meruit" where the judge gets to decide what is a fair amount. Lots of
judges have no contracting experience to speak of, and having them "write"
the contract ex post facto is never good for the contractor. Not only does
the contractor appear like an idiot for not having a contract in the first
place, the contractor has to prove every cent and second he spent on the job
and will not get paid for anything he can't prove. That's almost always a
loss for the contractor, whom the judge is probably eager to teach a lesson
by lowballing him.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1692

quantum meruit defined:

(kwahn-tuhm mare-ooh-it) n. Latin for "as much as he deserved," the
actual value of services performed. Quantum meruit determines the amount to
be paid for services when no contract exists or when there is doubt as to
the amount due for the work performed but done under circumstances when
payment could be expected. This may include a physician's emergency aid,
legal work when there was no contract, or evaluating the amount due when
outside forces cause a job to be terminated unexpectedly. If a person sues
for payment for services in such circumstances the judge or jury will
calculate the amount due based on time and usual rate of pay or the
customary charge, based on quantum meruit by implying a contract existed.

With all of this said, there are plenty of homeowners and contractors who
can get by on a handshake because of years of good experience. When dealing
with someone you don't know, not having a contract is just plain dumb.

--
Bobby G.

Was I overcharged?
 

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:41:55 -0700 (PDT), Anthony
wrote:

On Jun 20, 7:29 am, RBM wrote:
On 6/19/2011 3:19 PM, Anthony wrote:



Recently, I had a tile backsplash done in my kitchen. It required
approx. 30 sq ft of coverage of 4 x 4'' tiles.. The guy had to remove
my old Formica backsplash, and then installed cement drywall. In this
process he also hard wired a new kitchen hood from an old outlet that
was at the bottom base behind the range. Originally, he was going to
make a hole in my cabinet above the stove so he can exhaust thru an
opening he would have to make to the outside wall. He asked for $2000
for the job. I thought first that was kind of high, but thought well
there is some labor in making that opening to the outside brick wall.
IN the process, the purchased hood could only allow a 7" hole and he
said its not possible because of the size of the cabinet and etc..he
was planning on a 4'' hole at the max. so that part was not done. He
did a beautiful job otherwise, and very pleased with the outcome, so
i
did not want to rock the boat..although i made a comment that it was
kind of high and he said that labor has increased these days in the
contracting business...BTW, we are talking about NYC, if that should
make a difference. I do not know what the going rates are for such a
job. He spent 8 hours of work the final day and 4hrs or so the
previous day for the removal of the Formica and put up the cement
drywall. Would appreciate an honest opinion from other contractors
who
do such work...not another owner who may have used an unlicensed
handyman, and obviously got it done for a lot less. This one was a
licensed one. Thanks

Couple of things to consider: One would be the considerable amount of
work cutting a 7" hole in the brick and running the ducting. I do
kitchens all the time, and I've never seen a 4" duct on a range hood.
Second, and not a biggy. He installed the wiring from an outlet behind
the range for the hood. The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

The outlet behind the range can be tapped from
the counter outlet circuit, as per Nec, however the range hood cannot.
NYC also requires someone with an electrical license to do this work.

HI, could u explain in detail of your comment?...per NEC? As for the
wiring, it was hard wired from an existing outlet via bx cable to my
new Hood ....and he is a licensed contractor, so wouldn't that cover
the electrical issue?
Licenced what kind of contractor? A licenced plumber or concrete
contactor is not a licenced electrician. Some licenced renovators MAY
be cross-discipline licenced - for example being a
plumber/gasfitter/electrician - but VERY few.

In some places A/C contractors are allowed to do limited electrical work,
but cross-disciplined contractors are rare as you point out.

--
Bobby G.

Was I overcharged?
 

wrote
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:25:35 -0400, "Robert Green" wrote

stuff snipped

There's some serious doubt that this job was done to code from the OP's
description. That's very actionable both via the licensing bureau(s) and
the court system. In either case, more information is needed as to
whether
tying the fan to an existing outlet box is code-worthy. I can't say for
sure - the OP would have to contact the AHJ in this case. He would have
to
do his homework. He now knows that he has to find out for sure about the
outlet/fan tie-in, especially if he does decide to sue for
non-performance.


Don't know what CURRENT code is, particularly in NYC, but years back
here in Canada (don't know if it was canada wide, Ontario, or just
locally) you could connect a fan to an existing circuit if it was HARD
WIRED - but you could not install a receptacle behind the fan and plug
it in on an existing circuit.
A combination hood fan/microwave was a conumdrum - the microwave HAD
to have a separate circuit - and the fan, if plugged in, could not be
on the same circuit. Wiring the fan and microwave together in the
wiring cabinet of the unit allowed you to legally run the microwave
and the fan on the same receptacle. Some rules were made without
taking into account changes in technology coming down the pipe - - - .

All good points to consider. NYC still uses BX so they are still a little
paranoid about electrical fires in buildings that could spread to an entire
block of rowhouses. I assume they are equally wary of non-licensed
electricians doing electrical hook-ups. The OP would have to get a ruling
from the AHJ as to whether the work was legal. Since it doesn't sound as if
it was inspected before it was sealed up, my guess is it would be flunked
for that alone. But it's just a guess. I left NYC in 1970. Only the AHJ
knows for sure. The problem is once you alert them, you can end up on a
forced path of redoing the work.

My neighbor had an entire unpermitted sunroom added to the back of her
house. I told her Google's gonna get you sooner or later and you may have
to take the whole thing down. They used an enormous amount of concrete for
the foundation and attached the addition to the brick wall of the back of
the house (her sister works for a concrete contractor so they got a deal).
Both our houses are built over some pre-existing springs. As you might
imagine, as the foundation settles, and it's settling pretty seriously, it's
pulling the back of the house down with it. The addition may self-destruct
long before the inspectors find it. She enjoys the heck out of it though,
so it may be worth it to her in the long run.

Still, as the old saying goes "you can't fight city hall (or gravity!)."

--
Bobby G.