I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

On Jun 17, 10:04*am, RicodJour wrote:
I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. *Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

On Jun 17, 9:58*am, "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 10:04*am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. *Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. * Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods of
time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are prone
for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is to keep
them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old nicads,
perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I keep on
trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them charged, but
the convenience of always having the tools ready when I need them
outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were very
expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

On Jun 17, 3:04*pm, RicodJour wrote:
I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. *Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

A car battery is better. This is a kill or cure solution.
Whiskers of cadmium short out the battery plates.
The massive current blows the whiskers apart.
Good idea to wear gloves and eye protedtion for this trick, the Nicd
can explode

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:


I have also heard of people doing the same thing with a car battery
but the down side of that is that the battery pack can blow up if
there are to many internal shorts.

car batteries plates are consumed and fall apart after awhile, you
might get a shorted cell once in a great while but the vast majority
of car batteries plates just disengrate
I THINK he meant using a car battery to ZAP the NiCad.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:





wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm

On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:





On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site

On Jun 18, 11:56*am, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



I have also heard of people doing the same thing with a car battery
but the down side of that is that the battery pack can blow up if
there are to many internal shorts.

car batteries plates are consumed and fall apart after awhile, you
might get a shorted cell once in a great while but the vast majority
of car batteries plates just disengrate

I was talking about using the car battery to fix the nicad

Sorry i miss toook what you said

But nicad cell wear out too, one failure must be shorted cell, but
nothing lasts forever

A local tool store had a big business going for awhile, apparently
zapping battery packs. Ther business ended as people lined up for
refunds....

On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:





On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. I think they would be
considered a credible source. And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. Many times people read what
they want to read. If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, I'd be happy to see it.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 18, 9:33Â*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22Â*am, "
wrote:





On Jun 17, 9:27Â*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. Â*That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. I think they would be
considered a credible source. And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. Many times people read what
they want to read. If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, I'd be happy to see it.
There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see: http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...0catalogue.pdf

Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.

On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...Catalog-Lo.pdf

It's on page 1.

I'm not saying which way is right on this. Only that there are
differing
opinions. It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 18, 3:32Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33Â*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22Â*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27Â*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. Â*That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? Â*One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. Â*I think they would be
considered a credible source. Â* And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. Â* Many times people read what
they want to read. Â*If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, Â*I'd be happy to see it.

Â*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

Â*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...Catalog-Lo.pdf

It's on page 1.


And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. Only that there are
differing
opinions. It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.
There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.

On Jun 18, 9:46*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/....

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? * I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. *There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201...

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. *Only that there are
differing
opinions. *It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. * In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Say what? As usual, you love to just make stuff up as you go.
PowerSonic says nothing about each cell having to be
shorted seperately in their battery manual. And if that were
necessary
it would obviously be pointless to put the statement recommending
Nicads be stored discharged in the front of their technical manual
that applies to all their batteries. How many of the batteries in
that
manual are single cell? Probably either none or almost none.

One of the two references you provided previously, that recites what
Panasonic says, follows that with a quote from another source that
says that Nicads can be stored either charged or discharged with
no damage.

http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm

Which is consistent with what I've said from the
beginning, that Panasonic's position is not universal and there
are other credible opinions that differ. I have seen other
sources that say if they are placed in long term
storage and allowed to self-discharge, then when you go to use
them again, it will take several full charge/discharge cycles for
them to get back to full capacity. It's possible that is
what Panasonic is talking about when they say that if they are
allowed to self-discharge, it can lead to a decrease in performance.
But, we really don't know, because Panasonic doesn't say exactly
what the issue is.

I'm inclined to think it doesn't make much difference whether you
store them charged or dischaged because if
it did and storing them one way or the other made a big difference
I would expect it would be easy to find lots of consistent info
from most sources. Including right on the battery packaging
they come in, yet I've seen no such info. One thing is for sure.
Storing them either discharged or not doing anything is a lot
easier and practical than Panasonics recommendation to
keep charging them every 6 months when in storage.

On Jun 18, 8:46*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext -

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/....

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? * I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. *There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201...

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. *Only that there are
differing
opinions. *It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. * In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you short an individual ccell, the volatge is force to zero. If
you short a battery pack, you may actually put a reverse voltage on
some of the weaker sells. They don't like this at all!.

On Jun 19, 3:45*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:10:00 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 8:46*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext-

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? * I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. *There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201....

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. *Only that there are
differing
opinions. *It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. * In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you short an individual ccell, the volatge is force to zero. *If
you short a battery pack, you may actually put a reverse voltage on
some of the weaker sells. *They don't like this at all!.

*Correct.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If that is correct, then how can you be saying that those that say to
store Nicads discharged recommend doing it? You've contradicted
yourself. But it doesn't matter, because I've already given you
several sources that say to store them discharged, all are clearly
talking about more than one cell, and none of them say what you
claim.

On Jun 19, 3:45*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 07:24:26 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:46*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext-

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? * I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. *There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201....

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. *Only that there are
differing
opinions. *It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. * In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Say what? As usual, you love to just make stuff up as you go.
PowerSonic says nothing about each cell having to be
shorted seperately in their battery manual.

I did not say powersonic said that., did I? I said , and I quote,"
There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
*shorted "

And if that were
necessary
it would obviously be pointless to put the statement recommending
Nicads be stored discharged in the front of their technical manual
that applies to all their batteries. *How many of the batteries in
that
manual are single cell? *Probably either none or almost none.

One of the two references you provided previously, that recites what
Panasonic says, follows that with a quote from another source that
says that Nicads can be stored either charged or discharged with
no damage.

And ALL I said was "panasonic says"





http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm

Which is consistent with what I've said from the
beginning, that Panasonic's position is not universal and there
are other credible opinions that differ. * I have seen other
sources that say if they are placed in long term
storage and allowed to self-discharge, then when you go to use
them again, it will take several full charge/discharge cycles for
them to get back to full capacity. *It's possible that is
what Panasonic is talking about when they say that if they are
allowed to self-discharge, it can lead to a decrease in performance.
But, we really don't know, because Panasonic doesn't say exactly
what the issue is.

I'm inclined to think it doesn't make much difference whether you
store them charged or dischaged because if
it did and storing them one way or the other made a big difference
I would expect it would be easy to find lots of consistent info
from most sources. *Including right on the battery packaging
they come in, yet I've seen no such info. *One thing is for sure.
Storing them either discharged or not doing anything is a lot
easier and practical than Panasonics recommendation to
keep charging them every 6 months when in storage.

* Well, just going from my experience with Nicad powered tools - and
this is far from definitive, I'll admit - batteries that have been
left without a charge *for more than 4 months were DEAD when I went to
use them - and if I left them for a year, in most cases they were
shorted when I tried to recharge them. A good ZAP would make them take
a charge, but the next time I needed the tool, the battery was
invariably dead again - and often again had at least 1 shorted cell.
*On the one unit that I used on a semi-regular basis - charging every
couple of months - the battery lasted about twice as long before
failing.( I got better than 4 years out of that one drill battery -
whils the other drills and the saw ALL failed within 2 years.

I just finally threw all the drills away and bought a Lithium powered
drill. I still have the recip saw - but the batteries are pretty well
shot after having been rebuilt once. *Won't waste my money on a
...


I've used a Milwaukee driver drill that's 20+ years old and used
the nicad battery pack in that very rarely, maybe once every 2
years. Just put it away in whatever condition it was in when
I was done. Over the last 10 years, the charge level it would
hold decreased, but it was still enought to do the limited
amount of work I used it for. At 20 years, I was still getting
5 mins or so of work out of it. Last year, when I went to use
it, it would not hold a charge at all. So, I bought new batteries
on Ebay and rebuilt the pack.

On Jun 20, 1:42*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:09:06 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 19, 3:45*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:10:00 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 8:46*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. *That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext-

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? *One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. *I think they would be
considered a credible source. * And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. * Many times people read what
they want to read. *If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, *I'd be happy to see it.

*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? * I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. *There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201...

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. *Only that there are
differing
opinions. *It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. * In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you short an individual ccell, the volatge is force to zero. *If
you short a battery pack, you may actually put a reverse voltage on
some of the weaker sells. *They don't like this at all!.

*Correct.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If that is correct, then how can you be saying that those that say to
store Nicads discharged recommend doing it? *You've contradicted
yourself. * But it doesn't matter, because I've already given you
several sources that say to store them discharged, all are clearly
talking about more than one cell, and none of them say what you
claim.

*IF you store them dead, they should be stored shorted. That's what
several sources are saying - and if you store them shorted they MUST
be shorted individually - which means storing batteries - not cells,
SHOULD be done charged.

You keep going back and forth here. You seem to imply there is
agreement from many sources. When that doesn't pan out, then
you claimed you were just citing what Panasonic says. I'd like
to see the several sources that you have which say the above.
IMO, it sounds crazy because from a practical standpoint, virtually
all the nicads we deal with are going to be multiple cell. And I
gave you several sources, including manufacturing Power-Sonic
that say to store them discharged. I highly doubt PS expects
you to tear apart the battery to discharge and then short each
cell individually.





*Yes, you will find all kinds of recommendations - many of which will
contradict each other. And yes, you may get away with storing
batteries (not cells) dead and open circuit - and you might get away
with storing totally dead batteries (not cells) shorted - but it is
not recommended "best practice" and the gremlins are out there waiting
for you.

What makes it "best practice". Just because
Panasonic, one manufacturer, recommends it, doesn't mean
that is absolute and correct. As I pointed out, Panasonic does
not even explain what their concern is. Other sources that say
to store them discharge say that if they are stored charged and
allowed to discharge, it may result in them having to be cycled
several times later to get them back to holding a full charge.
For all we know, that temporary issue is what Panasonic is
talking about. The sources I've seen that go into the technical
details of how the batteries work tend to say that they should
be stored discharged. And again, if what you claim above is
true, it would be pretty stupid for them to keep stating that
they really mean you must tear open the batteries and short
each cell individually.

Again, from the start, I said there are a variety of opinions
out there. For some reason, you seem to believe only
Panasonic. That's fine, you can do as you want. The
only issue I have is you keep trying to make it sound
like that is the only right way and Panny's opinion is
golden.




Storing "dead" batteries shorted CAN cause cell reversal -

You're the one who brought storing batteries shorted
into the discussion. The sources I provided that talk
about storage say to store them discharged or partially
discharged.



and cell reversal is NOT good for the battery, or the individual cell.
Same with single cells - storing dead and open circuit might work for
you - but it is not "best practice"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 20, 1:42Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:09:06 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 19, 3:45Â*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:10:00 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 8:46Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:32Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 18, 9:33Â*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:22Â*am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 9:27Â*pm, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:09:12 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:35 am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:58 am, "
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:04 am, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

I wonder if it works how much more life you get out of them.
I saw this a while back when I had a driver/drill pack that went
bad. Finally decided that for $20 I could get new batteries on
Ebay and just rebuild it.

What the OP is talking about is using a low-impedance power source to
burn open the whiskers that sometimes form on older NICAD batteries,
especially when they are left unused and uncharged for long periods
of time. Once the cells start whiskering, they almost always are
prone for it to happen again, the best thing to prevent/stop this is
to keep them permanently on a trickle charger. I have some very old
nicads, perhaps 30+ years old, that I still use in some tools that I
keep on trickle chargers. I know I am using power to keep them
charged, but the convenience of always having the tools ready when I
need them outweighs the small cost. When they were new, they were
very expensive so that is another reason I hate to discard them.

Actually I've read just the opposite. Â*That leaving them completely
discharged is the best way to store them.

I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

According to Panasonic, storing NiCads should be between 10 and 30
degrees F, and charged at least once a year. Never store the battery
dead.
NiMh batteries are a different story and can be stored long-term
either dead or fully charged, According to both Sony and Duracell you
may need to "reactivate" them by charge cycling - long term storage
between -20 and +35 F, 50% RH.

DO NOT store dead with a load connected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And here's some sources that say they should be stored
discharged:

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial-NiCad.html

" When preparing to store NiCad batteries, be sure to discharge the
batteries fairly deeply. The range in recommendations is between 40%
and 0% charged when going into storage. "

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf

http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm-Hidequotedtext-

- Show quoted text -

I would trust Panasonic more than some web site- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some website? Â*One of those 3 websites was a tech data sheet
from a $750mil manufacturer that gives a tech data sheet
on storage for nicads used in aircraft. Â*I think they would be
considered a credible source. Â* And they clearly say to store them
fully
discharged.

As for Panasonic, what you are apparently trusting is the
previous posting of heresay regarding what Panasonic says
or doesn't say on the issue. Â* Many times people read what
they want to read. Â*If you have a link to what Panasonic
actually says, or anyone that says they should only be
placed in storage fully charged, Â*I'd be happy to see it.

Â*There is a big difference between consumer "dry" Nicads and aircraft
Nicad batteries. These are vented, flooded cell batteries - like the
lead acid automotive batteries of 20 or so years ago (and many up to
this day).
Totally different than sealed "dry" cells

As for Panasonic, see:http://www.powerstream.com/Storage.htm
and
:http://www.master-instruments.com.au...%20Industrial/...

Â*Both say to charge every 6 months to a year when in long term
storage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You do realize that both don't count when one is just repeating
what the other says, don't you? Â* I agree that Panasonic is saying
to keep them charged when in long term storage. Â*There are plenty of
other sources that say the opposite, to keep them discharged and
I've also seen others that say it doesn't matter one way or the
other.

Here's a competitor to Panasonic that says to keep them discharged:

http://www.power-sonic.com/images/po...1277751010_201...

It's on page 1.

And PowerSonic does not differentiate between NiMh and NiCad batteries
anywhere on page one..

I'm not saying which way is right on this. Â*Only that there are
differing
opinions. Â*It may also have something to do with the particular
battery
manufacturer's exact process and what company A says for their
batteries may not apply to company B's. Â* In my own case, I just don't
worry about it at all because I think in the grand scheme it probably
doesn't make much difference.

Â*There are also other references that talk about storing Nicads
shorted (obviously totally discharged first) - but they all emphasize
that EACH CELL MUSTBE SHORTED SEPARATELY - meaning you cannot short a
nicad BATTERY (or pack) - only a NiCad cell. Apparently a shorted dead
cell does not grow the cadmium needles like an open circuit dead Nicad
does.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you short an individual ccell, the volatge is force to zero. Â*If
you short a battery pack, you may actually put a reverse voltage on
some of the weaker sells. Â*They don't like this at all!.

Â*Correct.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If that is correct, then how can you be saying that those that say to
store Nicads discharged recommend doing it? Â*You've contradicted
yourself. Â* But it doesn't matter, because I've already given you
several sources that say to store them discharged, all are clearly
talking about more than one cell, and none of them say what you
claim.

Â*IF you store them dead, they should be stored shorted. That's what
several sources are saying - and if you store them shorted they MUST
be shorted individually - which means storing batteries - not cells,
SHOULD be done charged.

You keep going back and forth here. You seem to imply there is
agreement from many sources. When that doesn't pan out, then
you claimed you were just citing what Panasonic says. I'd like
to see the several sources that you have which say the above.
IMO, it sounds crazy because from a practical standpoint, virtually
all the nicads we deal with are going to be multiple cell. And I
gave you several sources, including manufacturing Power-Sonic
that say to store them discharged. I highly doubt PS expects
you to tear apart the battery to discharge and then short each
cell individually.





Â*Yes, you will find all kinds of recommendations - many of which will
contradict each other. And yes, you may get away with storing
batteries (not cells) dead and open circuit - and you might get away
with storing totally dead batteries (not cells) shorted - but it is
not recommended "best practice" and the gremlins are out there waiting
for you.

What makes it "best practice". Just because
Panasonic, one manufacturer, recommends it, doesn't mean
that is absolute and correct. As I pointed out, Panasonic does
not even explain what their concern is. Other sources that say
to store them discharge say that if they are stored charged and
allowed to discharge, it may result in them having to be cycled
several times later to get them back to holding a full charge.
For all we know, that temporary issue is what Panasonic is
talking about. The sources I've seen that go into the technical
details of how the batteries work tend to say that they should
be stored discharged. And again, if what you claim above is
true, it would be pretty stupid for them to keep stating that
they really mean you must tear open the batteries and short
each cell individually.

Again, from the start, I said there are a variety of opinions
out there. For some reason, you seem to believe only
Panasonic. That's fine, you can do as you want. The
only issue I have is you keep trying to make it sound
like that is the only right way and Panny's opinion is
golden.




Storing "dead" batteries shorted CAN cause cell reversal -

You're the one who brought storing batteries shorted
into the discussion. The sources I provided that talk
about storage say to store them discharged or partially
discharged.



and cell reversal is NOT good for the battery, or the individual cell.
Same with single cells - storing dead and open circuit might work for
you - but it is not "best practice"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "

stuff snipped

Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

FWIW, I still have about 20 Lafayette hi-cap NiCads that were always stored
fully charged that still take and hold a charge. I've had cheap Chinese
batteries fail no matter which way they were stored. I've also tried the
whisker burning zapping method but the cells would never work as well as
unwhiskered cells afterwards. The damn whiskers would ALWAYS grow back.

I finally got a LaCrosse charger with an LCD readout of charge rates,
voltage, amount of charge taken, etc. for each individual battery (it holds
four AA/AAA's. When a cell turns up bad (i.e. takes 3Ah of charge instead of
800mAh) into the trash it goes. Life's too short to risk injury from
zapping. I had an AAA NiCad cell explode with the force of a .22LR. That
was that for zapping. I found myself asking "are you so damn cheap you
can't throw away a bad battery?"

I also test cells by charging them up and bagging them with a date on them.
A month or two later I discard all the cells that show under 1 volt. I've
had some interesting results with the newer NiMH batteries that can hold 80%
of their charge for a year. Oddly, the expensive Enerloop batteries fared
much worse in my tests than the much cheaper AC/Delco version. Go figure.
I'm guessing that each battery maker uses slightly different "goo" and
manufacturing techniques and one size/method of charging does NOT fit all.

I might try adding "drained and shorted" to some of what my wife fondly
calls "my science projects" but I've largely stopped using individual NiCad
cells for anything. Not enough power or longevity of charge compared to
NiMH. The new AC/Delco's seem to be ideal for things that tend to get
accidentally left on.

--
Bobby G.

On Jun 20, 7:44*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "


Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from *what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

At least I've cited multiple credible sources that disagree with
Panasonic. You've cited exactly one source, Panasonic and
choose to rely on that to establish what you call best practice.
And even that one source does not say that not keeping
them charged in storage will lead to damage, shorter life,
etc. It's quite possible it only leads to what some of the
other sources say, which is that if left discharged it will
take several charge/discharge cycles to get them back
to full capacity. That could be behind the Panasonic
recommendation, but we don't know because Panasonic
does not explain what the issue is.

Relying on one source and then claiming that establishes
best practices is a big leap.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 20, 7:44Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "


Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from Â*what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

At least I've cited multiple credible sources that disagree with
Panasonic. You've cited exactly one source, Panasonic and
choose to rely on that to establish what you call best practice.
And even that one source does not say that not keeping
them charged in storage will lead to damage, shorter life,
etc. It's quite possible it only leads to what some of the
other sources say, which is that if left discharged it will
take several charge/discharge cycles to get them back
to full capacity. That could be behind the Panasonic
recommendation, but we don't know because Panasonic
does not explain what the issue is.

Relying on one source and then claiming that establishes
best practices is a big leap.
What part of "You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've
always been taught - and from Â*what I gather from the very limited
information on the net, nothing has changed my mind." do you not
understand?

There is not enough definitive information on the net to establish
what is correct - or if there is, in fact, any REAL difference.
Over the years I've been taught you keep them charged, but not on
float, if you cannot store them DEAD and shorted - and you NEVER
short a string of cells in series.

Shorted dead strings are OUT due to the danger of cell reversal.
That leaves dead open circuit, or charged.. The question that remains
is which is most likely to grow cadmium needles?? It APPEARS dead open
circuit batteries are more likely to suffer this than charged
batteries, but nothing totally definitive has been produced to say for
sure.

On 6/17/2011 7:04 AM, RicodJour wrote:
I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ

R

Heh, I recall an article in Popular Electronics back in the 1970's "Zap
New Life into Ni-Cad Batteries."

Basically charge up a big capacitor and discharge it across the battery
to try to burn away the short. It does work, but the shorts can form
again. I've had good luck with zapping. It doesn't apply to NiMH batteries.

You can use a high current power supply as well. The 3.3V supply out of
an ATX computer power supply (around 20A) could work, but it may shut
down too fast with an over-current shut down if you connect to a shorted
cell for too long.

One thing that is wrong in that video is that he is zapping the whole
pack. What you must do is to find the bad cells in the pack (measure
with a volt meter) and zap each bad cell in the pack individually.

On Jun 21, 9:29*pm, SMS wrote:
On 6/17/2011 7:04 AM, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. *Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ


Heh, I recall an article in Popular Electronics back in the 1970's "Zap
New Life into Ni-Cad Batteries."

Basically charge up a big capacitor and discharge it across the battery
to try to burn away the short. It does work, but the shorts can form
again. I've had good luck with zapping. It doesn't apply to NiMH batteries.

You can use a high current power supply as well. The 3.3V supply out of
an ATX computer power supply (around 20A) could work, but it may shut
down too fast with an over-current shut down if you connect to a shorted
cell for too long.

One thing that is wrong in that video is that he is zapping the whole
pack. What you must do is to find the bad cells in the pack (measure
with a volt meter) and zap each bad cell in the pack individually.

Interesting. I like the computer power supply idea. The part I
don't like is that last weekend I brought all of the electronic
recyclable stuff to the recycling center dropoff. Hmmm, I wonder
who's not using their computer around here....?

Thanks for the info and idea.

R

On Jun 21, 8:43*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:44*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "

Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from *what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

At least I've cited multiple credible sources that disagree with
Panasonic. *You've cited exactly one source, Panasonic and
choose to rely on that to establish what you call best practice.
And even that one source does not say that not keeping
them charged in storage will lead to damage, shorter life,
etc. *It's quite possible it only leads to what some of the
other sources say, which is that if left discharged it will
take several charge/discharge cycles to get them back
to full capacity. *That could be behind the Panasonic
recommendation, but we don't know because Panasonic
does not explain what the issue is.

Relying on one source and then claiming that establishes
best practices is a big leap.

*What part of "You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've
always been taught - and from *what I gather from the very limited
information on the net, nothing has changed my mind." do you not
understand?


The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged. Fact is, if anything, there are
more sources saying to in fact store them discharged. It's
Panasonic that says that you should keep them charged.





There is not enough definitive information on the net to establish
what is correct - or if there is, in fact, any REAL difference.

The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged.



Over the years I've been taught you keep them charged, but not on
float, if you cannot store them DEAD and shorted - and *you NEVER
short a string of cells in series.

Shorted dead strings are OUT due to the danger of cell reversal.

Again, YOU are the only one here who ever suggested shorting
batteries. None of the sources I've seen, nor the many I've
cited say that.



That leaves dead open circuit, or charged.. The question that remains
is which is most likely to grow cadmium needles?? It APPEARS dead open
circuit batteries are more likely to suffer this than charged
batteries, but nothing totally definitive has been produced to say for
sure.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Appears based on exactly what? Certainly nothing that you've cited,
just your own speculation. The one source you provided, Panasonic,
doesn't say it.

On 6/21/2011 10:37 PM, RicodJour wrote:

snip

Interesting. I like the computer power supply idea. The part I
don't like is that last weekend I brought all of the electronic
recyclable stuff to the recycling center dropoff. Hmmm, I wonder
who's not using their computer around here....?

http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply

I built something similar to this from a 400 watt supply on sale for $10
from MicroCenter (with two internal fans), though now I see it's $25:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0321043

The most difficult part of the conversion was removing the label from
the supply.

+3.3V@26A; +5V@35A; +12V@15A; ; +5VSB@2A.

I included binding posts for +5, +3.3, and +12 and -12. The -12 is there
for RS-232 ports only, that's why it's only 0.5A.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 03:41:12 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 21, 8:43*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:44*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "

Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from *what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

At least I've cited multiple credible sources that disagree with
Panasonic. *You've cited exactly one source, Panasonic and
choose to rely on that to establish what you call best practice.
And even that one source does not say that not keeping
them charged in storage will lead to damage, shorter life,
etc. *It's quite possible it only leads to what some of the
other sources say, which is that if left discharged it will
take several charge/discharge cycles to get them back
to full capacity. *That could be behind the Panasonic
recommendation, but we don't know because Panasonic
does not explain what the issue is.

Relying on one source and then claiming that establishes
best practices is a big leap.

*What part of "You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've
always been taught - and from *what I gather from the very limited
information on the net, nothing has changed my mind." do you not
understand?


The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged. Fact is, if anything, there are
more sources saying to in fact store them discharged. It's
Panasonic that says that you should keep them charged.

It's not like you have a choice. They *are* going to self-discharge anyway.
The worst possible condition is to store NiCds on a constant charge. Storing
them discharged is the only other possibility. ;-)


There is not enough definitive information on the net to establish
what is correct - or if there is, in fact, any REAL difference.

The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged.



Over the years I've been taught you keep them charged, but not on
float, if you cannot store them DEAD and shorted - and *you NEVER
short a string of cells in series.

Shorted dead strings are OUT due to the danger of cell reversal.

Again, YOU are the only one here who ever suggested shorting
batteries. None of the sources I've seen, nor the many I've
cited say that.

Shorting *any* battery is a dumb thing to do.

...

On 6/22/2011 3:41 AM, wrote:

The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged. Fact is, if anything, there are
more sources saying to in fact store them discharged. It's
Panasonic that says that you should keep them charged.

There is a difference between what is practical and what is ideal.

You can store nickel based batteries without charging them periodically
(they will quickly self-discharge anyway), but ideally you would store
them at a partial charge.

Battery University states that a 40% charge level for storage would be
ideal, but goes on to explain just how difficult that is to achieve on
nickel based batteries because their flat voltage discharge curve makes
determining an accurate SOC impossible, and then goes on to suggest that
you should just charge them if they are empty, then store them in a cool
place.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries

Probably the best option would be to store them in battery holders and
have a timer connected to a charger that would turn on for a few minutes
every week to compensate for the self discharge. BTW, best case, it
takes a NiCad battery 14 weeks to self-discharge from 100% to 40% of
capacity.

If you have an old camera that uses AA batteries, if you use NiMH
batteries it can be really annoying because you get almost zero warning
before they will no longer operate the camera. It is not possible to
have an accurate battery level indicator based solely on voltage with
nickel based batteries, you need to monitor current flow, temperature,
time, and voltage, and try to come up with an algorithm that takes all
those into account.

On 6/22/2011 6:41 AM, SMS wrote:

I included binding posts for +5, +3.3, and +12 and -12. The -12 is there
for RS-232 ports only, that's why it's only 0.5A.

This is what I built: http://i52.tinypic.com/20zzeva.jpg

It's helpful to find an ATX power supply that also has a manual on/off
switch so you don't have to add one (a lot of ATX power supplies lack a
rocker switch for on/off since it's not really necessary). Also find one
that doesn't have an external fan bolted on top.

The #1 problem with these conversions seems to be forgetting to
reconnect the sense wires after you cut off the big connector (I made
this mistake). The sense wires are connected to the appropriate voltage
at the connector, and when you cut off the connector the sense wire is
no longer connected to the wire(s) providing the power. The supply will
come on for a second then shut down because it's not sensing voltage and
it doesn't know why (could be a direct short to ground in which case it
needs to shut down).

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:37:24 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Jun 21, 9:29Â*pm, SMS wrote:
On 6/17/2011 7:04 AM, RicodJour wrote:

I'm interested in experimenting with trying to revive some old NiCd
batteries by zapping them and I ran across this on YouTube. Â*Good,
clear video about using two other good NiCd batteries to revive the
dead one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e8hHLyXAyQ


Heh, I recall an article in Popular Electronics back in the 1970's "Zap
New Life into Ni-Cad Batteries."

Basically charge up a big capacitor and discharge it across the battery
to try to burn away the short. It does work, but the shorts can form
again. I've had good luck with zapping. It doesn't apply to NiMH batteries.

You can use a high current power supply as well. The 3.3V supply out of
an ATX computer power supply (around 20A) could work, but it may shut
down too fast with an over-current shut down if you connect to a shorted
cell for too long.

One thing that is wrong in that video is that he is zapping the whole
pack. What you must do is to find the bad cells in the pack (measure
with a volt meter) and zap each bad cell in the pack individually.

Interesting. I like the computer power supply idea. The part I
don't like is that last weekend I brought all of the electronic
recyclable stuff to the recycling center dropoff. Hmmm, I wonder
who's not using their computer around here....?

Thanks for the info and idea.

R
You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 03:41:12 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 21, 8:43Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:44Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT), "

Best practice is not always possible - which is why I say better
charged than flat and open circuit - and better flat and open circuit
than flat and shorted for a battery - better flat and shorted for a
single cell.

You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've always been
taught - and from Â*what I gather from the very limited information on
the net, nothing has changed my mind.

Long term CELL storage - drained and shorted
Long term BATTERY storage - DO NOT SHORT.
If you cannot store drained and shorted (which is not practical for a
BATTERY of cells,) store charged - and recharge every few months.

As usual, you are free to store YOURS however you want.
And it's a free world - you can agree with me, or you can dissagree
with me.
So far nothing YOU can cite proves me wrong.

At least I've cited multiple credible sources that disagree with
Panasonic. Â*You've cited exactly one source, Panasonic and
choose to rely on that to establish what you call best practice.
And even that one source does not say that not keeping
them charged in storage will lead to damage, shorter life,
etc. Â*It's quite possible it only leads to what some of the
other sources say, which is that if left discharged it will
take several charge/discharge cycles to get them back
to full capacity. Â*That could be behind the Panasonic
recommendation, but we don't know because Panasonic
does not explain what the issue is.

Relying on one source and then claiming that establishes
best practices is a big leap.

Â*What part of "You don't have to agree with me, but that's what I've
always been taught - and from Â*what I gather from the very limited
information on the net, nothing has changed my mind." do you not
understand?


The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged. Fact is, if anything, there are
more sources saying to in fact store them discharged. It's
Panasonic that says that you should keep them charged.





There is not enough definitive information on the net to establish
what is correct - or if there is, in fact, any REAL difference.

The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
is not to store them discharged.



Over the years I've been taught you keep them charged, but not on
float, if you cannot store them DEAD and shorted - and Â*you NEVER
short a string of cells in series.

Shorted dead strings are OUT due to the danger of cell reversal.

Again, YOU are the only one here who ever suggested shorting
batteries. None of the sources I've seen, nor the many I've
cited say that.



That leaves dead open circuit, or charged.. The question that remains
is which is most likely to grow cadmium needles?? It APPEARS dead open
circuit batteries are more likely to suffer this than charged
batteries, but nothing totally definitive has been produced to say for
sure.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Appears based on exactly what? Certainly nothing that you've cited,
just your own speculation. The one source you provided, Panasonic,
doesn't say it.
Well, you can look at wikipedia , if you put any stock in that
source, for information about cell reversal, and mention of shorting
cells for storage - but I don't use Wikipedia as a sourse.

http://www.saftbatteries.com/SAFT/Up...ft/PDF/tn1.pdf
is talking about flooded NiCad batteries and recommends storing them
filled and discharged, and notes that shorting is not required.
NOTE - This is a FLOODED battery for aircraft use.


Nasa is the only source that I have found on the net so far that is
not manufacturer specific OR just some useless rambling by idiots like
yourself and Me.

They are quoted he http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm
and I'll quote from there so you don't need to follow the link and
then find the relevant part.

SOME of this is not from the NASA site - so best you look up the link
given - and research the rest yourself (from Nasa - it should be on
the net somewhere in "virgin" form).


What you are looking for is:
NASA Reference Publication 1326, February 1994 Handbook for Handling
and Storage of Nickel-Cadmium Batteries: Lessons Learned by Floyd E.
Ford Swales & Associates, Beltsville, Maryland) and Gopalakrishna M.
Rao, Thomas Y. Yi (Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland)
Published by NASA Scientific and Technical Information Branch.



"Storage of NiCd Batteries
Guideline No. 2 Flight batteries should be maintained in a discharged
and shorted condition and stored at cold temperatures when not
required for "critical" spacecraft testing. Optimal temperature is
around 0 degrees C. NASA does it this way:

Discharge at C/2 constant current rate to first cell at 1.0 Volts
Drain each cell with a 1 ohm resistor to less than 0.03V
Short each cell with a bar
Place batteries in a sealed bag with dessicant (stops condensation)
Store in cold temperature (about 0 deg C) "


Also:
"Guideline No. 8
Batteries should not stand on open circuit for more than 7 days
without being charged. Charging should be initiated only after
implementing Guideline No. 3. "


Also:
"Guideline No. 9
A battery should be "reconditioned" if it has been on open circuit,
subjected to intermittent use, i.e, open circuit, trickle charge,
occasional discharge, etc., for a period of 30 days. Reconditioning is
effected by performing the following sequence at 20 deg C:

discharge at C/2 constant current rate to first cell at 1.0V
Drain each cell with 1 ohm resistor to less than 0.03V
Short each cell for a minimum of 4 hours
Recharge battery at C/20 constant current rate for 40 hours +/- 4
hours (see NOTE below)
NOTE: The re-charge method following step 2 is not critical if the
cells have not been discharged and shorted for extended periods. After
a few hours (4-8) at the C/20 rate, charging at high rates is
acceptable. If the battery is integrated into the spacecraft, final
charging can be accomplished with the spacecraft battery charger. "

Also:
"The final one is our most common fault, don't let your packs just lie
around. When not in use they should be either stored shorted, or, if
you are about to race with one, on a C/60 or C/100 trickle charge in
preparation for use. When I say shorted I mean that each cell is
shorted, not the whole pack. You can't short your whole pack at once
without risking damage to it! Also note the careful process used to
short cells."






Note, Batteries stored discherged - one cell at a time - and shorted.
We do not know if these are flooded cells or "dry" type cells.

On Jun 22, 10:47*am, SMS wrote:
On 6/22/2011 3:41 AM, wrote:

The part where you then proceed to claim that the " best practice"
* is not to store them discharged. * Fact is, if anything, there are
more sources saying to in fact store them discharged. *It's
Panasonic that says that you should keep them charged.

There is a difference between what is practical and what is ideal.

You can store nickel based batteries without charging them periodically
(they will quickly self-discharge anyway), but ideally you would store
them at a partial charge.

Battery University states that a 40% charge level for storage would be
ideal, but goes on to explain just how difficult that is to achieve on
nickel based batteries because their flat voltage discharge curve makes
determining an accurate SOC impossible, and then goes on to suggest that
you should just charge them if they are empty, then store them in a cool
place.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries

Probably the best option would be to store them in battery holders and
have a timer connected to a charger that would turn on for a few minutes
every week to compensate for the self discharge. BTW, best case, it
takes a NiCad battery 14 weeks to self-discharge from 100% to 40% of
capacity.

If you have an old camera that uses AA batteries, if you use NiMH
batteries it can be really annoying because you get almost zero warning
before they will no longer operate the camera. It is not possible to
have an accurate battery level indicator based solely on voltage with
nickel based batteries, you need to monitor current flow, temperature,
time, and voltage, and try to come up with an algorithm that takes all
those into account.

For the record, zapping will only temporally fix cells. Charging them
making them warm all the time is very bad.
I charge my Johnson nicads, almost 50 years old, once every 2 or 3
years, and the receiver always works.

Greg

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:20:09 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.


You are correct - it's not rocket science - but the old XT/AT supplies
were also significantly more reliable. LOTS of them still going strong
at 20 years of age, while the "average" ATX supply is toast in less
than 10 - many not lasting 2.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:06:32 -0700 (PDT), Gz
wrote:

For the record, zapping will only temporally fix cells. Charging them
making them warm all the time is very bad.
I charge my Johnson nicads, almost 50 years old, once every 2 or 3
years, and the receiver always works.

Greg
Sadly, when it comes to those old nicads - they just do NOT make them
like that any more!!!!

On 6/22/2011 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:20:09 -0700,
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.


You are correct - it's not rocket science - but the old XT/AT supplies
were also significantly more reliable. LOTS of them still going strong
at 20 years of age, while the "average" ATX supply is toast in less
than 10 - many not lasting 2.

Yea, the original IBM PC made in America was built like a tank with high
quality components which is why the darn things cost 4-5 thousand
dollars back then. :-)

TDD

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:00:26 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:20:09 -0700,
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.


You are correct - it's not rocket science - but the old XT/AT supplies
were also significantly more reliable. LOTS of them still going strong
at 20 years of age, while the "average" ATX supply is toast in less
than 10 - many not lasting 2.

Yea, the original IBM PC made in America was built like a tank with high
quality components

That's why they were only rated for 5000 power-on-hours. ;-)

which is why the darn things cost 4-5 thousand
dollars back then. :-)

No, they cost 4-5 thousand dollars because they could. BTW, I paid $2500 for
mine. ;-)

On 6/23/2011 9:14 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:00:26 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:20:09 -0700,
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.


You are correct - it's not rocket science - but the old XT/AT supplies
were also significantly more reliable. LOTS of them still going strong
at 20 years of age, while the "average" ATX supply is toast in less
than 10 - many not lasting 2.

Yea, the original IBM PC made in America was built like a tank with high
quality components

That's why they were only rated for 5000 power-on-hours. ;-)

which is why the darn things cost 4-5 thousand
dollars back then. :-)

No, they cost 4-5 thousand dollars because they could. BTW, I paid $2500 for
mine. ;-)

Well, I think the MTBF was rated a bit low. I pick up those things, plug
them up and they run. For something 30+ years old that's not
too bad. Do you remember the original Lear 8 track tape players
and the units produced by Delco for GM? The construction was massive
and tough as nails. When the Asians started building them they made
them out of tin cans. :-)

TDD

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 12:51:34 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/23/2011 9:14 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:00:26 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:20:09 -0700,
wrote:

On 6/22/2011 2:27 PM, wrote:

You will want an older xt/at style supply, not the newer ATX, if you
want it to be "simple"

The proper ATX supply is sufficiently simple. It should also have an
on-off switch, which some ATX supplies have.

1. The 3.3V sense wire (orange or brown) which will be connected to one
of the orange 3.3V power wires on the connector before the connector is
cut off (probably pin 11) needs to be reconnected to a +3.3V wire after
the ATX connector is cut off.

2. PS-ON (green, pin 14) needs to be connected to ground.


You are correct - it's not rocket science - but the old XT/AT supplies
were also significantly more reliable. LOTS of them still going strong
at 20 years of age, while the "average" ATX supply is toast in less
than 10 - many not lasting 2.

Yea, the original IBM PC made in America was built like a tank with high
quality components

That's why they were only rated for 5000 power-on-hours. ;-)

which is why the darn things cost 4-5 thousand
dollars back then. :-)

No, they cost 4-5 thousand dollars because they could. BTW, I paid $2500 for
mine. ;-)

Well, I think the MTBF was rated a bit low.

Sure, but that design point was needed to get the cost of the components down.
The same sort of parts were used in 100kPOH devices. The real difference was
testing.

I pick up those things, plug
them up and they run. For something 30+ years old that's not
too bad. Do you remember the original Lear 8 track tape players
and the units produced by Delco for GM? The construction was massive
and tough as nails.

I haven't plugged mine in for probably 20 years. I still have it, with an
expansion unit with a *huge* 10MB disk drive. ;-)

When the Asians started building them they made
them out of tin cans. :-)

Didn't know they made tin cans out of plastic. ;-)