bob haller wrote the following:
On Jun 7, 7:25 am, Robert Neville wrote:

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:


which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.


and anywhere that freezes the plumbing including water heater must be
indoors.



Oh, ****. I have to move my water well, septic system, and dry well
inside the house.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 05:25:06 -0600, Robert Neville
wrote:

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.
or as in Africa - OUTSIDE.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 09:06:43 -0600, Robert Neville
wrote:

bob haller wrote:

and anywhere that freezes the plumbing including water heater must be
indoors.

Not true in every location... Last winter we hit 30F below zero and our fully
code compliant water heater is located in a non-heated garage. It was an
unusually cold winter last year, but every winter it can and frequently does get
close to zero at night. The heater is obviously insulated, as are the input and
output water lines.
Might be "code compliant" but still a very foolish installation.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jun 5, 7:12Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
Â* bob Â*wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.
Let me guess. Â*One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Yes it does. With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the
standby losses go up the flue. With an electric, there is no flue
path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. There are also
the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency
furnaces. Those would have very little standby loss up the vent
path as well, more like electric ones.

However, the standby losses are not huge. I have a conventional gas
water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month.
That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss.
One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter
before going away for a week and get an actual number.

Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here
is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because
they heat the house in winter. Even if all the standby losses
did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two
major problems with that claim. One has already been
pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then
it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us
with AC. And second is that most water heaters are not
in the living space itself. Hard to believe heat escaping my
water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much
good heating the house.
It'll help a wee tiny bit keeping the floor warm - and MANY houses
today the basement is finished, heated, living space.

wrote:

Might be "code compliant" but still a very foolish installation.

No, it isn't. "Code compliant" is another way of saying energy efficient.

Engineering a good house isn't just applying a few rules of thumb and calling it
a day. In the case of a hot water heater, you need to look at the degree days
for the location and decide if it makes sense to have the water heater located
inside or outside of the thermal envelope.

In this case, we see far more "warm days" than we do "cold days", even with the
extremes of temperatures. Given the price of electricity (used for cooling) and
the price of propane (used for heating), it makes much more sense to have the
heater located in the garage. Any ancillary heat loss serves to keep the
insulated garage warmer in the winter and isn't fighting with the a/c in the
summer.

The insulated tank itself isn't going to freeze - it's heated! The lines,
correctly insulated and routed to the nearest insulated wall are likewise not
going to freeze.

On Jun 7, 5:13*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:12*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-





wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
* bob *wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.
Let me guess. *One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Yes it does. *With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the
standby losses go up the flue. *With an electric, there is no flue
path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. *There are also
the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency
furnaces. * Those would have very little standby loss up the vent
path as well, more like electric ones.

However, the standby losses are not huge. * I have a conventional gas
water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month.
That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss.
One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter
before going away for a week and get an actual number.

Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here
is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because
they heat the house in winter. * Even if all the standby losses
did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two
major problems with that claim. *One has already been
pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then
it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us
with AC. * And second is that most water heaters are not
in the living space itself. *Hard to believe heat escaping my
water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much
good heating the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would have thought you turned everything off before you went away to
save and for safety.

On Jun 7, 6:07*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:12*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
* bob *wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.
Let me guess. *One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Yes it does. *With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the
standby losses go up the flue. *With an electric, there is no flue
path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. *There are also
the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency
furnaces. * Those would have very little standby loss up the vent
path as well, more like electric ones.

However, the standby losses are not huge. * I have a conventional gas
water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month.
That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss.
One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter
before going away for a week and get an actual number.

Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here
is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because
they heat the house in winter. * Even if all the standby losses
did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two
major problems with that claim. *One has already been
pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then
it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us
with AC. * And second is that most water heaters are not
in the living space itself. *Hard to believe heat escaping my
water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much
good heating the house.

*It'll help a wee tiny bit keeping the floor warm - and MANY houses
today the basement is finished, heated, living space.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought they were turned into themed drinking dens in America?

In article ,
Robert Neville wrote:

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the
house in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common
in moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the
heating envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.

All of the houses and some of the apartments I have lived in had the water
heater located outside of the living space.

My only assertion was that of if it is an advantage in winter it is a
disadvantage in the summer, and that hardly qualifies as an assumption

On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 05:25:06 -0600, Robert Neville wrote:

"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.

Ours is in an unheated (and uninsulated) attic above the garage (a room that
I'm currently finishing into a workshop).

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 04:48:36 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

On Jun 7, 7:25*am, Robert Neville wrote:
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the
house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house
in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)

Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in
moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating
envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage. *

and anywhere that freezes the plumbing including water heater must be
indoors.

Wrong.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 12:43:28 -0600, Robert Neville
wrote:

wrote:

Might be "code compliant" but still a very foolish installation.

No, it isn't. "Code compliant" is another way of saying energy efficient.

Not necessarily - code compliant means it meets code - which is
"safety" related.

Engineering a good house isn't just applying a few rules of thumb and calling it
a day. In the case of a hot water heater, you need to look at the degree days
for the location and decide if it makes sense to have the water heater located
inside or outside of the thermal envelope.

Degree days do not mean a thing when you have extremes. It can go
above 92F in the summer and down to -20F in the winter - both for days
on end. The degree days can be the same as somewhere where it stays
above 30F and below 80F year round. Different construction is required
- and definitely different plumbing practices.

In this case, we see far more "warm days" than we do "cold days", even with the
extremes of temperatures. Given the price of electricity (used for cooling) and
the price of propane (used for heating), it makes much more sense to have the
heater located in the garage. Any ancillary heat loss serves to keep the
insulated garage warmer in the winter and isn't fighting with the a/c in the
summer.

The insulated tank itself isn't going to freeze - it's heated! The lines,
correctly insulated and routed to the nearest insulated wall are likewise not
going to freeze.

Tell that to people who's pipes freeze on the outside wall of a
heated interior space

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 11:46:16 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Jun 7, 6:07Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:12Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:59:31 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 6/5/2011 2:44 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In
,
Â* bob Â*wrote:

Much of a standard tanks losses go to heat the home in winter so they
really arent losses at all.

They also heat the home in the summer (creating additional load on your AC)

Actually, the standby losses go up the flue, so neither is true for the most part.
Let me guess. Â*One of you has a gas WH and the other electric?

does that somehow change the standby losses?

Yes it does. Â*With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the
standby losses go up the flue. Â*With an electric, there is no flue
path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. Â*There are also
the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency
furnaces. Â* Those would have very little standby loss up the vent
path as well, more like electric ones.

However, the standby losses are not huge. Â* I have a conventional gas
water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month.
That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss.
One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter
before going away for a week and get an actual number.

Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here
is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because
they heat the house in winter. Â* Even if all the standby losses
did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two
major problems with that claim. Â*One has already been
pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then
it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us
with AC. Â* And second is that most water heaters are not
in the living space itself. Â*Hard to believe heat escaping my
water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much
good heating the house.

Â*It'll help a wee tiny bit keeping the floor warm - and MANY houses
today the basement is finished, heated, living space.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought they were turned into themed drinking dens in America?
Mabee in Redneck USA - here in Canada it's games rooms, family rooms,
bedrooms, home theatres,home offices - etc.

wrote:

code compliant means it meets code - which is
"safety" related.

Right... That would explain the presence of minimum insulation standards.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 12:43:28 -0600, Robert Neville
wrote:

stuff snipped

The insulated tank itself isn't going to freeze - it's heated! The lines,
correctly insulated and routed to the nearest insulated wall are likewise
not
going to freeze.

Tell that to people who's pipes freeze on the outside wall of a
heated interior space

Agreed. What happens if you're away and the pilot light or auto igniter
fails? Won't be long before that "heated" tank loses its stored heat energy
and freezes, especially in the Great White Way where the thermometer often
dips way below zero F.

I think it's funny that some people are convinced that nearly all water
heaters are located outside the living space. I've lived in 10 different
places in the NE United States and not ONE of them had a water heater
outside the living space. That's a good reminder that local solutions are
often not scalable to the whole wide world.

As for pilot light gas consumption we've discovered that it's very, very
small and not worth it to go with an igniter because the water heater has
heated our bedroom (gallon jugs) and bathroom (the tub) during some serious
long power outtages during the 100 year blizzards we've been getting every
10 years nowadays!

--
Bobby G.