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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

Saw them in Home Depot this week. Is there any advantage,
compared to run the engine dry and store it dry?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with
gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other
outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is
growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans
that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest



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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing
in U.S. hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that
sell at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


----
According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial gasoline with
water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with a clear
line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.

Since ethanol is added to boost the octane level of the resulting mixture,
you should probably start with high-octane gas to achieve a usable octane
level.



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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:04:43 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing
in U.S. hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that
sell at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


----
According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial gasoline with
water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with a clear
line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.

Since ethanol is added to boost the octane level of the resulting mixture,
you should probably start with high-octane gas to achieve a usable octane
level.


My chainsaw and string trimmer have been running on 100ll AvGas for
the last 2 years. (left over from friend's ultralight plane -40:1
premix.

My lawn mower and snow blower run on Shell Ultra - which in Canada is
still ethanol free.
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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:04:43 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing
in U.S. hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that
sell at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


----
According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial gasoline with
water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with a clear
line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.

Since ethanol is added to boost the octane level of the resulting mixture,
you should probably start with high-octane gas to achieve a usable octane
level.


No, ethanol is added in Missouri as a mandate as gasoline hits a certain
selling point. It has nothing to do with octane levels, but government
stupidity.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 18, 7:44*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Saw them in Home Depot this week. Is there any advantage,
compared to run the engine dry and store it dry?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with
gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other
outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is
growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans
that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Its far better to run it dry and not to keep old gas for more than a
few months even in a can.
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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 18, 8:04*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing
in U.S. hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that
sell at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


----
According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial gasoline with
water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with a clear
line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.

Since ethanol is added to boost the octane level of the resulting mixture,
you should probably start with high-octane gas to achieve a usable octane
level.


And then you can Drink it!
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 8:42*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:

*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

Hell Toupee wrote:

Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


I wonder how much advertising revenue Popular Advertising, I mean Popular
Mechanics, is getting from the "gas in a can" company.

Jon




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Default No-alci fuel for small engines



"Hell Toupee" wrote in message ...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it --


Sure, but some folks so enjoy those urban legends, why spoil their fun?
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On 4/18/2011 8:44 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Saw them in Home Depot this week. Is there any advantage,
compared to run the engine dry and store it dry?

I run them dry. I had trouble with my snow thrower last year and read
the fine print in the manual not to use gas with ethanol. I would
imagine that newly manufactured stuff takes into consideration the
governments ethanol folly.
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On Apr 19, 1:13*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/18/2011 8:44 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: Saw them in Home Depot this week. Is there any advantage,
compared to run the engine dry and store it dry?


I run them dry. *I had trouble with my snow thrower last year and read
the fine print in the manual not to use gas with ethanol. *I would
imagine that newly manufactured stuff takes into consideration the
governments ethanol folly.


A Chinese manual no doubt, all i can get is ethanol for about 35 years.
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On Apr 19, 12:31*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote:

Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


I wonder how much advertising revenue Popular Advertising, I mean Popular
Mechanics, is getting from the "gas in a can" company.

Jon


If it sits on the shelf to long, and at that price, its crap in a can.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in
U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with it
-- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15 and
E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the higher-percentage
ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy to avoid. As for
the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


If it don't frig up your car or truck or motorcycle why should it frig
up your lawn mower or leaf blower? I've had no trouble. I don't drain
nothing, starts every year just fine.

--
If your doctor isn't taking new patients,
he ain't curing any of them.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 4:04*pm, LSMFT wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in
U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq....


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with it
-- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15 and
E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the higher-percentage
ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy to avoid. As for
the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


If it don't frig up your car or truck or motorcycle why should it frig
up your lawn mower or leaf blower? I've had no trouble. I don't drain
nothing, starts every year just fine.

--
If your doctor isn't taking new patients,
he ain't curing any of them.


Because it can evarporate in the carb leaving behind a varnish
coating, in your car you drive it, and fuel injection is sealed.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:

On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 8:42Â*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:

Â*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?



I'll take issue with a couple things.

First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.

Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.

Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.

As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.

And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)
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LSMFT wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing
in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell
at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...lick=pm_latest


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it.
Bought it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law
uses the ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result:
there are no problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're
easy to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


If it don't frig up your car or truck or motorcycle why should it frig
up your lawn mower or leaf blower? I've had no trouble. I don't drain
nothing, starts every year just fine.


As the article said, automobiles do not use plastic or rubber parts
sensitive to alcohol and are equipped with computers that drive the fuel
injectors.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 12:31Â*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote:

Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


I wonder how much advertising revenue Popular Advertising, I mean Popular
Mechanics, is getting from the "gas in a can" company.

Jon


If it sits on the shelf to long, and at that price, its crap in a can.



AvGas is a sealed can is still AvGas after 5 years.
Regular gasoline in a sealed can would be reasonable too, but I
wouldn't bet on gasahol.


There is also "TANK STETCHER" you can buy in a sealed can, that you
pour into your tank when you run out of gasoline to get you off the
highway and hopefully to a gas station. It has something like a 5 year
shelf life - but you need to use it while the engine is still warm -
you could have problems restarting a cold engine because it's vapour
pressure and volatility is quite low.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines


--
If your doctor isn't taking new patients,
he ain't curing any of them.


If your doctor IS taking new patients, maybe the old ones are dead?

Mark



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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 18, 8:04*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

snip


According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial gasoline with
water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with a clear
line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.


snip


Since the water /ethanol is on the bottom, better to decant the
gasoline on top, right?

Joe
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Default UPDATE: No-alci fuel for small engines

Joe wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:04 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

snip


According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be
assured they're true), you can remove the ethanol from
station-bought gas:

* In a clear container (i.e., water jug), mix your commercial
gasoline with water. Let the mixture sit overnight.
* The water, with the absorbed ethatnol, will be at the bottom with
a clear line of demarcation.
* Decant the water.


snip


Since the water /ethanol is on the bottom, better to decant the
gasoline on top, right?


Er, yeah.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 8:04*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:





On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq....


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. *Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

*The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I agree. First, Popular Mechanics does a pretty good job vetting
urban
legends from fact. Second, there have been plenty of other stories
done, with interviews of guys who own repair shops, that have
reported similar findings.

Does it mean that every small engine will have problems or behave
the same? No. Personally, I've had mixed results. My lawn mower,
leaf blower, edger, and chain saw have been fine. However, my
Tecumseh snowblower carb, for some reason, gets fouled up
within a couple months max. I've had it be fine at the start of the
winter
when tested, then fail to start because of the carb a month and
a half later. And that is with gas stabilizer added. Yet that
same gas can be used in the other engines, left in them for 3X
as long, with no problems.

So, I'd say it depends. And I'd tend to believe repair shops,
who have far more experience with this than we do.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 7:04*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:





On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq....


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. *Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

*The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.


Gee 25 years using ethanol and I have no complaints, I just dont keep
it more than 4-6 months in humid temps. Alcohol is a solvent that
reduces varnishing, I dont buy your oxidation theory- urban legand
crap. You are not going to get seperation if you use the gas instead
of letting it sit a few years, more urban legend crap. Water got
absorbed in regular gas to, or did you forget "water on the bottom of
the tank' it happens from condensation forming from changes in the
weather, google it. Alcohol does alow it to be burnt off instead of
sitting in the tank, a true benefit. So you posted 3 versions for
excuses of "its bad gas" vs " I was an idiot to keep it for several
years and why isnt it good anymore, it must be the alcohol. Bottom
line, use your gas in a few months, gas by itself goes stale, even
without alcohol, or the effects weather can have to increase moisture
content. And your alternative to ethanol, you dont have one unless you
waste your time.


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 7:18*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:42*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:


*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq....


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?


I'll take issue with a couple things.

First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.

Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.

Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" *Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.

As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.

And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)


You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the
plugs read correctly and did not burn hot. Knocking was present and
that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew
it I was beating the crap out of it in the country with that 4 barrel
wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a
higher temp- increases octane rating. And bottom line it ran 100%
better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent,
and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink
anymore, your car can finish the bottle.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 19, 7:39*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 12:31*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Hell Toupee wrote:


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


I wonder how much advertising revenue Popular Advertising, I mean Popular
Mechanics, is getting from the "gas in a can" company.


Jon


If it sits on the shelf to long, and at that price, its crap in a can.


AvGas is a sealed can is still AvGas after 5 years.
Regular gasoline in a sealed can would be reasonable too, but I
wouldn't bet on gasahol.

There is also "TANK STETCHER" you can buy in a sealed can, that you
pour into your tank when you run out of gasoline to get you off the
highway and hopefully to a gas station. It has something like a 5 year
shelf life - but you need to use it while the engine is still warm -
you could have problems restarting a cold engine because it's vapour
pressure and volatility is quite low.


5 years with Zero change in chemistry? Not in plastic as chemicals in
gas permeate plastic, in metal but there is the risk of the seal.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:21:48 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 7:04Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:





On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Â*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. Â*Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

Â*The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.


Gee 25 years using ethanol and I have no complaints, I just dont keep
it more than 4-6 months in humid temps. Alcohol is a solvent that
reduces varnishing, I dont buy your oxidation theory- urban legand
crap. You are not going to get seperation if you use the gas instead
of letting it sit a few years, more urban legend crap. Water got
absorbed in regular gas to, or did you forget "water on the bottom of
the tank' it happens from condensation forming from changes in the
weather, google it. Alcohol does alow it to be burnt off instead of
sitting in the tank, a true benefit. So you posted 3 versions for
excuses of "its bad gas" vs " I was an idiot to keep it for several
years and why isnt it good anymore, it must be the alcohol. Bottom
line, use your gas in a few months, gas by itself goes stale, even
without alcohol, or the effects weather can have to increase moisture
content. And your alternative to ethanol, you dont have one unless you
waste your time.

You don't have to buy my theory, and 4 to 6 months CAN be too long
to keep fuel. Water is not "absorbed" in straight gas. Yes, you got
water in the tank, but it was separated from the gasoline. It DOES
cause problems, whether you have experienced it or believe it, or not.
As a mechanic I see it happen.
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 7:18Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:42Â*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:


Â*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?


I'll take issue with a couple things.

First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.

Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.

Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" Â*Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.

As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.

And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)


You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the
plugs read correctly and did not burn hot.


Whwere did I say it ran too hot? I didn't. I said it ran too LEAN.
Lean mixtures detonate more readilly than rich mixtures.
Knocking was present and
that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew
it I was beating the crap out of it in the country with that 4 barrel
wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a
higher temp- increases octane rating.


You do NOT understand OCTANE, or detonation.
And bottom line it ran 100%
better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent,
and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink
anymore, your car can finish the bottle.


If the gas was bad and had water in it, the alky WOULD make it run
better. But it CAN cause damage if too much is added.

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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 20, 5:10*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 7:18*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley


wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:42*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:


*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?


I'll take issue with a couple things.


First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.


Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.


Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" *Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.


As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.


And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)


You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the
plugs read correctly and did not burn hot.


Whwere did I say it ran too hot? I didn't. I said it ran too LEAN.
Lean mixtures detonate more readilly than rich mixtures.

Knocking was present and
that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew
it I was beating the crap out of it in the country *with that 4 barrel
wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a
higher temp- increases octane rating.


You do NOT understand OCTANE, or detonation.

And bottom line it ran 100%
better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent,
and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink
anymore, your car can finish the bottle.


If the gas was bad and had water in it, the alky WOULD make it run
better. But it CAN cause damage if too much is added.


If it ran lean, it would be running too hot. If it ran lean the plug
temperature would have shown it burning white. Only once did I add 5%
alcohol by volume, the day it didnt go up a grade, its was always
normaly 1.25% or so, a Liter per 20 gallons, and that liter made a
dramatic difference in Europes crap gas. Knocking beat it up, and when
I blew it the plugs-cilinders were running way under normal temp from
lower compression, and probably in need of timing, it was an old car
using oil. The amount of alcohol I added and the type of city driving
it was getting I cant see 1.25% of alcohol affecting it negatively,
but in performance it was great. .


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 467
Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 20, 5:06*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:21:48 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 7:04*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:


On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).


However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.


That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.


The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. *Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.


*The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.


That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.


There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.


Gee 25 years using ethanol and I have no complaints, I just dont keep
it more than 4-6 months in humid temps. Alcohol is a solvent that
reduces varnishing, I dont buy your oxidation theory- urban legand
crap. You are not going to get seperation if you use the gas instead
of letting it sit a few years, more urban legend crap. Water got
absorbed in regular gas to, or did you forget "water on the bottom of
the tank' it happens from condensation forming from changes in the
weather, google it. Alcohol does alow it to be burnt off instead of
sitting in the tank, a true benefit. So you posted 3 versions for
excuses of "its bad gas" vs " I was an idiot to keep it for several
years and why isnt it good anymore, it must be the alcohol. Bottom
line, use your gas in a few months, gas by itself goes stale, even
without alcohol, or the effects weather can have to increase moisture
content. And your alternative to ethanol, you dont have one unless you
waste your time.


* You don't have to buy my theory, and 4 to 6 months CAN be too long
to keep fuel. Water is not "absorbed" in straight gas. Yes, you got
water in the tank, but it was separated from the gasoline. It DOES
cause problems, whether you have experienced it or believe it, or not.
As a mechanic I see it happen.


  #32   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 6,399
Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Apr 21, 10:08*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 20, 5:10*pm, wrote:





On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT), ransley


wrote:
On Apr 19, 7:18*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley


wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:42*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:


*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?


I'll take issue with a couple things.


First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.


Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.


Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" *Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.


As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.


And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)


You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the
plugs read correctly and did not burn hot.


Whwere did I say it ran too hot? I didn't. I said it ran too LEAN.
Lean mixtures detonate more readilly than rich mixtures.


Knocking was present and
that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew
it I was beating the crap out of it in the country *with that 4 barrel
wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a
higher temp- increases octane rating.


You do NOT understand OCTANE, or detonation.


And bottom line it ran 100%
better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent,
and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink
anymore, your car can finish the bottle.


If the gas was bad and had water in it, the alky WOULD make it run
better. But it CAN cause damage if too much is added.


If it ran lean, it would be running too hot. If it ran lean the plug
temperature would have shown it burning white. Only once did I add 5%
alcohol by volume, the day it didnt go up a grade, its was always
normaly 1.25% or so, a Liter per 20 gallons, and that liter made a
dramatic difference in Europes crap gas. Knocking beat it up, and when
I blew it *the plugs-cilinders were running way under normal temp from
lower compression,


MAybe I'm confused here, but AFAIK, the compression ratio is
determine by the engine parameters and is fixed. It doesn't
vary by fuel used. Compression ratio is the volume of the
cylinder with the piston fully down divided by the volume
with it all the way up, no? What kind of fuel the engine
can safely run on then depends on the compression ratio
as well as fuel/air ratio, timing, etc.





and probably in need of timing, it was an old car
using oil. The amount of alcohol I added and the type of city driving
it was getting I cant see 1.25% of alcohol affecting it negatively,
but in performance it was great. .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


  #33   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 18,538
Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:08:40 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 20, 5:10Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Apr 19, 7:18Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley


wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:42Â*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:


Â*From Popular Mechanics:


"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."


http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...


Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.


My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.


These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.


Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had
ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or
so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair
service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and
old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about
blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression
because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the
factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months,
dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there
even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?


I'll take issue with a couple things.


First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that
killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular"
grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our
RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89.
They may have also had water in the gas.


Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it
LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle
the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the
mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes
out pistons.


Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes
a higher temperature to ignite" Â*Octane rating is a measurement of
resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of
disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.


As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the
engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected
engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in
large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to
recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition
timing to protect itself.


And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is
not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not
store well)


You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the
plugs read correctly and did not burn hot.


Whwere did I say it ran too hot? I didn't. I said it ran too LEAN.
Lean mixtures detonate more readilly than rich mixtures.

Knocking was present and
that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew
it I was beating the crap out of it in the country Â*with that 4 barrel
wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a
higher temp- increases octane rating.


You do NOT understand OCTANE, or detonation.

And bottom line it ran 100%
better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent,
and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink
anymore, your car can finish the bottle.


If the gas was bad and had water in it, the alky WOULD make it run
better. But it CAN cause damage if too much is added.


If it ran lean, it would be running too hot. If it ran lean the plug
temperature would have shown it burning white. Only once did I add 5%
alcohol by volume, the day it didnt go up a grade, its was always
normaly 1.25% or so, a Liter per 20 gallons, and that liter made a
dramatic difference in Europes crap gas. Knocking beat it up, and when
I blew it the plugs-cilinders were running way under normal temp from
lower compression, and probably in need of timing, it was an old car
using oil. The amount of alcohol I added and the type of city driving
it was getting I cant see 1.25% of alcohol affecting it negatively,
but in performance it was great. .

And 1.25% alky did NOTHING for the octane rating. Absolutely NO
noticeable change in octane - and virtually no MEASURABLE change..
The R+M/2 octane of anhydrous ethanol (200 proof) is 100.5.

What goes in fuel is NOT anhydrous, and is denatured to boot - so
MABEE 99 octane. Added to 87 octane regular at 50% would give you less
than 10 points improvement, so at 5% perhaps 1 point.
Being real optimistic, 1.25% MIGHT get you 0.2 points octain
improvement.

What it DOES do is lean the mixture, AND make it run COOLER.
Most people do not understand the relationship between mixture,
combustion temp, and engine temp.

Engines RUN hot when too lean only under load - due to detonation
disturbing the boundary layer that keeps the metal from absorbing all
the heat of the "dragon's breath".

A LEAN mixture (leaner than optimum, or stoich) actually produces LESS
heat - and since Ethanol has only half the heat value of gasoline, it
LEANS the mixture, and REDUCES the combustion temperature in the cyl..
I'm not saying the ethanol did not make it run better - but it wasn't
the OCTANE change that did it. And if that 390 was as tired as you
say, it likely didn't have enough compression to require high octane
fuel anymore anyway.
Also, with it burning oil it is IMPOSSIBLE to get an accurate
"reading" of the plug as far as mixture OR temperature are concerned.

You don't have to believe me. And I'm 90% sure you won't, but it is
absolutely true.
I've been servicing and tuning engines of all kinds for over 40 years,
and running them on fuel a lot worse than Euro fuel for several of
those years (you want CRAP gas, you want to try burning the stuff they
sell in central Africa - Zambia was bad enough - the swill they sold
in Zaire was even worse - and at $2.65 per liter back in the
seventies!!!
There's a reason Deisels are more common there (and in Europe)
  #34   Report Post  
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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



If it ran lean, it would be running too hot. If it ran lean the plug
temperature would have shown it burning white. Only once did I add 5%
alcohol by volume, the day it didnt go up a grade, its was always
normaly 1.25% or so, a Liter per 20 gallons, and that liter made a
dramatic difference in Europes crap gas. Knocking beat it up, and when
I blew it Â*the plugs-cilinders were running way under normal temp from
lower compression,


MAybe I'm confused here, but AFAIK, the compression ratio is
determine by the engine parameters and is fixed. It doesn't
vary by fuel used. Compression ratio is the volume of the
cylinder with the piston fully down divided by the volume
with it all the way up, no? What kind of fuel the engine
can safely run on then depends on the compression ratio
as well as fuel/air ratio, timing, etc.


You've got it pretty close.
"mechanical" or calculated compression ratio is the ratio of the
volume of the cyl with the piston at bottom dead center to the volume
of the cyl with the piston at top dead center (or swept volume plus
clearance volume devided by clearance volume)
ACTUAL or EFFECTIVE compression ratio is generally reduced somewhat by
2 factors. On old engines, cyl leakage reduces the effective ratio -
and more at low RPM than at high RPM.
Cam timing also reduces the effective compression ratio at low speeds
- the hotter the cam (the more overlap) the lower the effective
compression ratio, and the lower the compression pressure.

Since detonation is always more of a problem under high cyl pressures,
you usually experience it under load at lower RPM - where thankfully
the effective CR is lower, - so you can have an engine with a hot cam
and 15:1 CR that will run on 92 octane without a problem in a light
car, and an engine otherwise the same, but with a mild cam and 12:1
compression in a pickup truck, that pings on 97 octane.

Octane requirements also change with combustion chamber design. High
turbulence chambers, with lots of "squish" and "quench" (which
generally translates to higher CR as well, due to design restrictions)
can require lower octane at higher compression ratios than open
chambers.

Oil consumption can RAISE the octane requirement of an engine - partly
because the oil has a much lower octane, and partly because it SLOWS
DOWN combustion. SLOWER combustion, NOT faster combustion, is most
likely to cause detonation. The theory that faster burning fuels lower
octane, and slower burning fuels have higher octane is a total
missunderstanding of the detonatipon phenomenon, and octane
equivalency of fuels.

The longer the "end gasses" stay in the cyl, the more likely they are
to detonate, because they absorb more heat and are subjected to the
high pressures longer. If the fuel is fully burned, there are no "end
gasses" to disassociate and detonate .

The other reason older, worn out engines can require higher octane
fuel is engine deposits. If lead, carbon, etc have built up in the
engine combustion chamber, 2 things (can) happen. Compression ratio
can increase because the clearance volume is reduced by the
accumulation. This can cause, or at least contribute to, detonation.
The carbon can glow hot, causing "pre-ignition" which is similar to,
different than, often mistaken for, and can contribute to -
DETONATION.

Badly worn engines can also have narrow "valve margins", with almost
knife edges on the valves - which can also overheat, causing
pre-ignition.

Just remember - preignition is NOT detonation, but preignition can
contribute to detonation - and detonation can contribute to
pre-ignition. Pre-ignition is independent of ignition timing, and
happens BEFORE the spark.
Detonation happens AFTER the spark.

Pre-ignition is caused by (among other things) overheating, while
detonation CAUSES overheating.

If you have an engine instrumented with exhaust temperature guages and
cyl head temp guages, exhaust temperature will DROP when either too
rich or too lean, and the interesting thing is, when you have
detonation, the Cyl head temperature will climb, while the exhaust
temperature drops. This is a common way to determine if an aircraft
engine has reached the point of "incipient detonation" - which means
"get the throttle back NOW!!!!!"




and probably in need of timing, it was an old car
using oil. The amount of alcohol I added and the type of city driving
it was getting I cant see 1.25% of alcohol affecting it negatively,
but in performance it was great. .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


  #35   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 3,761
Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On 4/20/2011 5:06 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:21:48 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 7:04 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell
wrote:





On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...

Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.

NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.


Gee 25 years using ethanol and I have no complaints, I just dont keep
it more than 4-6 months in humid temps. Alcohol is a solvent that
reduces varnishing, I dont buy your oxidation theory- urban legand
crap. You are not going to get seperation if you use the gas instead
of letting it sit a few years, more urban legend crap. Water got
absorbed in regular gas to, or did you forget "water on the bottom of
the tank' it happens from condensation forming from changes in the
weather, google it. Alcohol does alow it to be burnt off instead of
sitting in the tank, a true benefit. So you posted 3 versions for
excuses of "its bad gas" vs " I was an idiot to keep it for several
years and why isnt it good anymore, it must be the alcohol. Bottom
line, use your gas in a few months, gas by itself goes stale, even
without alcohol, or the effects weather can have to increase moisture
content. And your alternative to ethanol, you dont have one unless you
waste your time.

You don't have to buy my theory, and 4 to 6 months CAN be too long
to keep fuel. Water is not "absorbed" in straight gas. Yes, you got
water in the tank, but it was separated from the gasoline. It DOES
cause problems, whether you have experienced it or believe it, or not.
As a mechanic I see it happen.


With all this yapping about alcohol in fuel, I had a thought, what the
heck are they doing in Brazil where many internal combustion engines are
run on straight alcohol? What problems have they overcome over the years
when their flex-fuel vehicles run E100 and E20 to E25 blends? o_O

TDD


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Default No-alci fuel for small engines

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:52:15 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/20/2011 5:06 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:21:48 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 19, 7:04 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:42:10 -0500, Hell
wrote:





On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:
From Popular Mechanics:

"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is
corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor
equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S.
hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a
premium but promise to make your small engines last."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...ols/can-boutiq...

Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10%
ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with
it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas
stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic
cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.

My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought
it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the
ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no
problems.

These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture
changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15
and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the
higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy
to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.

NOT TRUE.
Just because you have E10 does not mean you WILL have problems - in a
very dry atmosphere you can often get away with it - and plastic tanks
are less likely to get condensation than metal tanks - ditto for full
vs half empty., and non-vented tanks (like on my chain-saw).

However, when ethanol fuel is combined with high humidity and extreme
temp changes, water DOES get absorbed by the ethanol, and itf that
moisture level gets high enough, and then the temperature drops, for
instance, you WILL get phase separation, where the alky and water drop
out of the fuel mix - and at higher power settingsparicularly on 2
stroke engines, the engine goes lean (and loses lubrication as well)
when that slug of watered down hooch hits theengine - and engine
damage occurs.

That is ONE documented problem with hooch-gas.

The SECOND problem is when that watered down hooch sits in the carb
and corodes all the copper-containing parts. That's anything brass, as
well as a lot of alloy parts. Known as the "greenies", this corrosion
product plugs up jets and generally just fouls up everything it gets
close too.

The THIRD problem is the hooch is an oxidizer. That's why it is added
to the fuel - to make the fuel burn "cleaner" But over time, the
oxidizer oxidizes the fuel without burning it - forming a "varnish"
that also changes the calibration of the carb by half plugging the
jets, and makes float valves stick, damage diphragms in diaphragm
carbs and pulse pumps.

That's only THREE reasons Hooch-Gas is not good for (particularly)
small engines.

There are others, but these are the main 3 - and NONE of them are "old
wives tales" or "Urban Legends", OR inconsequential.

Gee 25 years using ethanol and I have no complaints, I just dont keep
it more than 4-6 months in humid temps. Alcohol is a solvent that
reduces varnishing, I dont buy your oxidation theory- urban legand
crap. You are not going to get seperation if you use the gas instead
of letting it sit a few years, more urban legend crap. Water got
absorbed in regular gas to, or did you forget "water on the bottom of
the tank' it happens from condensation forming from changes in the
weather, google it. Alcohol does alow it to be burnt off instead of
sitting in the tank, a true benefit. So you posted 3 versions for
excuses of "its bad gas" vs " I was an idiot to keep it for several
years and why isnt it good anymore, it must be the alcohol. Bottom
line, use your gas in a few months, gas by itself goes stale, even
without alcohol, or the effects weather can have to increase moisture
content. And your alternative to ethanol, you dont have one unless you
waste your time.

You don't have to buy my theory, and 4 to 6 months CAN be too long
to keep fuel. Water is not "absorbed" in straight gas. Yes, you got
water in the tank, but it was separated from the gasoline. It DOES
cause problems, whether you have experienced it or believe it, or not.
As a mechanic I see it happen.


With all this yapping about alcohol in fuel, I had a thought, what the
heck are they doing in Brazil where many internal combustion engines are
run on straight alcohol? What problems have they overcome over the years
when their flex-fuel vehicles run E100 and E20 to E25 blends? o_O

TDD

They had their fun too, but their vehicles are ENGINEERED to use
ethanol as a fuel - and the high ethanol blends (basically just
heavily "denatured" ethanol) behaves much differently than, say E10 or
E15. With 80% ethanol, and particularly in a warm climate, phase
separation is not much of a problem.

Their injectors are stainless steel, all fuel system components are
designed to be highly corrosion resistant and ethanol resistant. They
use different "O" rings and seal materials, and different fuel lines
to withstand the chemical environment (teflon lined hoses come to
mind)
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