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Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Apr 12, 8:49*pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In article , Dave M wrote: Don Klipstein wrote: In article , Tony Miklos wrote: Yes, the thread got too long. *If you saw the photo, and know the primary went open on 3 transformers, it sure looks like a problem on the primary side. *If the load was too much, those wires on the secondary side would most likely have been at the very least discolored from the heat. *This makes me think the most likely causes a * * Improperly connecting the transformer (such as using only 1 of *the 2 primaries of a 120/240V dual primary transformer) * * DC flowing through the secondary. *That can occur if the tranny's *load has a fullwave rectifier with one diode open. *If the fullwave *rectifier has discrete diodes or a dual diode, the problem may be a *bad solder joint at one of the diodes. That's not true. *an open rectifier does not allow DC current to flow through the secondary. *It's just 1/2 of the power line cycle. *During the opposite half of the cycle, no current flows in the secondary. *True, it's unidirectional current, but it's an intermittent current, not constant DC. If your statement were true, then half-wave rectifiers wouldn't be feasible. * A unidirectional pulsing waveform has a DC component. * That analyzes to a sum of DC, fundamental frequency AC, and AC at harmonic frequencies. *The average as averaged over a whole cycle is the DC component. * It is fairly well known that a transformer driving a halfwave rectified load can run into core saturation problems from the DC component in the unidirectionally pulsing current waveform. -- *- Don Klipstein )- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting theory. One helpful piece of info which it's quite amazing we still don't have is what the currents are on both sides of the transformer. For saturation to occur I would think the transformer would have to be close to fully loaded. Which it could be, given the trends to lower cost, cheaper components, etc. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Having an extremely warped mind, I thought some Hollywood special effects guys should get together with a shredder company and make a very special YouTube video of an Islamic terrorist being tied up in a big burlap sack with a hog. The whole squirming mass would be dropped into a monster shredder and all the sound effects, blood and guts would be awesome. At the end, a disclaimer would read.... "No actual pigs were harmed during the production of this video" Of course the reaction would be the same as the nut-jobs who were upset about their Koran being burned and went around killing everyone they could find who they believed to be a Christian. Your idea tracks with one described by an acquaintance of mine. He envisioned a web site, "stopthedesecration.com." On the web site, a (masked) host is seen standing in a warehouse chock full of Wahabi-sanctioned Korans. The site promises that for every outrage committed in the name of Islam, some book (or a portion) will be desecrated! There is also a "catalog" of outrages and consequences (if I remember correctly). * Every anti-American or anti-western sign shown on TV = One page ripped out and stomped. * For every non-Muslim injured in the name of Islam = One entire Koran shredded. * For every non-Muslim killed in the name of Islam = One entire Koran shredded, mixed with pig blood and feces and flushed down a toilet. Appropriate videos will be cataloged, each showing the offense AND the sanction in graphic detail. A continuous scroll appears on the screen: "Only YOU can stop the desecration! Do not permit your friends and family to harm others!" |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 3:28 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 4/12/2011 11:12 PM, Don Klipstein wrote: In articleOr6dneUjdf0znTjQnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@earthlink .com, HeyBub wrote: SNIP to malevolance of machines, not just furnaces I've seen malevolent machines. I've been victimized by our metal overlords. Tell the truth, have you never been tempted to shotgun a lawnmower? http://www.ssiworld.com/watch/lawn-mower.htm Linked from http://www.watchitshred.com That place even shows shredding of some engine blocks. They make shredding of bowling balls look easy! Is a computer or some other electronic device ticking you off? http://www.ssiworld.com/watch/e-scrap.htm They even shred shredders: http://www.ssiworld.com/watch/shredder.htm Having an extremely warped mind, I thought some Hollywood special effects guys should get together with a shredder company and make a very special YouTube video of an Islamic terrorist being tied up in a big burlap sack with a hog. The whole squirming mass would be dropped into a monster shredder and all the sound effects, blood and guts would be awesome. At the end, a disclaimer would read.... "No actual pigs were harmed during the production of this video" Ever seen: Salvadore Dali's Chaos and Creation —possibly the first example of ... an abstract painting made using a motorcycle, popcorn and Pennsylvania pigs I believe it had a similar disclaimer. Of course the reaction would be the same as the nut-jobs who were upset about their Koran being burned and went around killing everyone they could find who they believed to be a Christian. I have a friend who is working on a haunted house. These things take months to make. He's in charge of the special effects and an ex alter boy. I'll suggest it to him. The house, I believe, is in the Bible belt so it may appeal to the locals. Jeff TDD |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote: He's in charge of the special effects and an ex alter boy. What's an alter boy? Is that newspeak for transexual? |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Please tell him to be careful of candles, and fearful of
priests. I got to help with a haunted house, and yes, it takes months to build. We used FRS walkie talkies, which were a real labor saver. Cheaper than calling from cell to cell. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Jeff Thies" wrote in message ... I have a friend who is working on a haunted house. These things take months to make. He's in charge of the special effects and an ex alter boy. I'll suggest it to him. The house, I believe, is in the Bible belt so it may appeal to the locals. Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Oops, I didn't catch that.
Alter boy is a male seamstress who lets out dresses for fat brides. This thread has drifted a lot. No longer about 24VAC transformers, I see. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Smitty Two" wrote in message ... In article , Jeff Thies wrote: He's in charge of the special effects and an ex alter boy. What's an alter boy? Is that newspeak for transexual? |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Oops, I didn't catch that. Alter boy is a male seamstress who lets out dresses for fat brides. This thread has drifted a lot. No longer about 24VAC transformers, I see. Like that is unusual! I do like the alternative definitions though, since I got the vowels wrong! Near as I can tell the OP gave up. Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:22:15 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Apr 12, 8:49Â*pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote: In article , Dave M wrote: Don Klipstein wrote: In article , Tony Miklos wrote: Yes, the thread got too long. Â*If you saw the photo, and know the primary went open on 3 transformers, it sure looks like a problem on the primary side. Â*If the load was too much, those wires on the secondary side would most likely have been at the very least discolored from the heat. Â*This makes me think the most likely causes a * Â* Improperly connecting the transformer (such as using only 1 of Â*the 2 primaries of a 120/240V dual primary transformer) * Â* DC flowing through the secondary. Â*That can occur if the tranny's Â*load has a fullwave rectifier with one diode open. Â*If the fullwave Â*rectifier has discrete diodes or a dual diode, the problem may be a Â*bad solder joint at one of the diodes. That's not true. Â*an open rectifier does not allow DC current to flow through the secondary. Â*It's just 1/2 of the power line cycle. Â*During the opposite half of the cycle, no current flows in the secondary. Â*True, it's unidirectional current, but it's an intermittent current, not constant DC. If your statement were true, then half-wave rectifiers wouldn't be feasible. Â* A unidirectional pulsing waveform has a DC component. Â* That analyzes to a sum of DC, fundamental frequency AC, and AC at harmonic frequencies. Â*The average as averaged over a whole cycle is the DC component. Â* It is fairly well known that a transformer driving a halfwave rectified load can run into core saturation problems from the DC component in the unidirectionally pulsing current waveform. -- Â*- Don Klipstein )- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting theory. One helpful piece of info which it's quite amazing we still don't have is what the currents are on both sides of the transformer. For saturation to occur I would think the transformer would have to be close to fully loaded. Which it could be, given the trends to lower cost, cheaper components, etc. As I posted in an earlier post (not sure what values I used, but I'll run a scenario anyway), assuming a 2 ohm winding, a 2 volt DC component will cause 1 AMP of current to flow in the winding. IF that coil happens to be the primary of a 40va transformer, The full load current on that transformer is about 350ma, so the probability that 1 amp of current in the primary, with no AC voltage applied, would have more than saturated the core is pretty good. Add the quiescent current of the primary, and you have a saturated core. And that's just a 2 volt DC component on a 115 volt primary. If the primary is 4 ohms instead of 2, you have half an amp with 2 volts, or 1 amp with 4 volts. Doesn't take much to put 2 volts DC across a 115 volt line. See http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm for more information from someone who may have a bit more credibility than you guys may give me. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
So, it's cheaper to put a half wave rectifier in, instead of
a second coil of heater wire? I rather doubt that. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... what happens if, say, the Mrs plugs her cheap blow drier into the same circuit as the primary of the transformer is plugged in to, and she puts the blow drier on low (it uses a half wave rectifier to drop the power to the heater) - and you end up with a DC component on the primary - which saturates the primary without any increase in secondary (load) current or power. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will
have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Amazing, haw yau change one litter, and the entier meening of the ward changes. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Jeff Thies" wrote in message ... On 4/13/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: Oops, I didn't catch that. Alter boy is a male seamstress who lets out dresses for fat brides. This thread has drifted a lot. No longer about 24VAC transformers, I see. Like that is unusual! I do like the alternative definitions though, since I got the vowels wrong! Near as I can tell the OP gave up. Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
As I posted in an earlier post (not sure what values I used, but I'll run a scenario anyway), assuming a 2 ohm winding, a 2 volt DC component will cause 1 AMP of current to flow in the winding. IF that coil happens to be the primary of a 40va transformer, ** A 40VA tranny designed for 120 volt 60 Hz operation has a primary resistance of 16 ohms. Getting a 2 volt DC offset on a 120 volt AC supply takes some doing. Doesn't take much to put 2 volts DC across a 115 volt line. ** Like hell. For a 2 volt DC offset to exist, the peak voltage in one polarity must be 6.3 volts higher than the other. With a typical impedance at the outlet of 0.25ohms, this equates to 25 amps peak load in one polarity and none in the other. See http://sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm for more information from someone who may have a bit more credibility than you guys may give me. ** I helped Rod write that article. Toroidal trannys are very sensitive to DC offsets while regular E-core types are hardly bothered by them - the difference is that while the former has no air gaps in the core, the latter is full of them. ..... Phil |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:22:37 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: So, it's cheaper to put a half wave rectifier in, instead of a second coil of heater wire? I rather doubt that. I don't remember the details, but I know quite a few DO work that way - and they also used 12 volt DC blower motors, without a transformer, by basically using the heater element as a rheostat.. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
"Stormin Mormon" So, it's cheaper to put a half wave rectifier in, instead of a second coil of heater wire? I rather doubt that. I don't remember the details, but I know quite a few DO work that way - and they also used 12 volt DC blower motors, without a transformer, by basically using the heater element as a rheostat.. ** My 1600 watt "Black & Decker" hot air gun is made exactly like that. ..... Phil |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Steve Turner wrote:
On 4/9/2011 7:29 PM, Jim Yanik wrote: wrote in m: "Steve Turner" wrote in message ... A continuation of the "Why does the 115V-24V transformer keep blowing on my Trane XB80?" discussion I started on 04/02/2011. Yep, My A/C unit blew another transformer. Pictures (and wiring diagram) he http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...7626457562742/ Trane's manual for the unit is here (for perhaps better viewing of the wiring diagrams that I also copied to my above flickr site as jpg images): http://www.trane.com/webcache/un/fur...oduct/22-1666- 07_04012009.pdf As you can probably see in the pictures, there is visible charring of the 115V leads going into the transformer, and of course the 115V circuit is open (again). If you didn't see my first thread, this is the third transformer the unit has blown. In the previous discussion, it was discussed that perhaps the first one just blew because of old age (6 years), and the second blew because it wasn't a proper replacement (poor quality, made in China, etc.). This third unit is most certainly a proper replacement, and it's most certainly indicative of a real problem I have somewhere else in the unit. I didn't see any such charring on the previous two units, at least not like this. I never got a real chance to test out the system after installing this third transformer. We had cool weather for several days, and I never tried to force the system to come on so I could monitor it; that was probably a mistake. Unfortunately, I was also absent from the premises during the extended times when the unit was most likely operational, so that didn't help either. However, my family tells me that it WAS working and cooling the house rather nicely, for at least a day, perhaps two. I'm getting 115V in all the right places, so it doesn't look like an over-voltage condition to me. Perhaps it's an overheating condition? It looks to me like the only real load on this circuit is the blower motor; could the motor be causing this? The blower spins freely when I turn it by hand. Start capacitor on the motor maybe? Relay on the control board perhaps? a bad start cap would not affect the 24v control transformer,that just powers the controller board and relays. either something is loading the transformer or a problem with input voltage. Just a thought, When you put the new transformer in does the "Diagnostic Light" LED turn on ? Does the LED blink or flash in one of the patterns indicated in the "diagnostic codes" section that you posted a link to ? The "diagnostic codes" imply that the control board can detect several of the problems mentioned by others. Maybe a good starting point as there is not enough time to test with test equipment. robb a line voltage monitor may be needed to see if there's some short-term overvoltage applied to the transformer,and a oscilloscope may determine if the input waveform is sinusoidal or otherwise,because 60hz iron core tranformers don't like extreme distortion on their input,it gets converted to heat,not output voltage. a DMM will not show line distortion or short term overvoltages. are the wires burned close to the transformer,or over their entire length? I peeled the insulation back from the hot and neutral wires and the burning only occurred right at the terminals, no more than 1/4" into the wiring. Steve, Not to be rude or anything, but a LOT of talk has gone on about your problem and I have not seen any further posts from you on the matter. No comments about any suggestions at all. I'm not going to spend any more time on this thread until we hear back from the original poster with more information otherwise we are simply blowing smoke (sorry - couldn't resist). John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 7:02 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Still here. Waiting on delivery of new transformer; can't really do anything until that arrives. Taking notes and enjoying the very interesting conversations this thread has spawned. I never dreamed it would spark such interest! -- "Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day." (From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago) To reply, eat the taco. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/ |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 10:51 PM, John Robertson wrote:
Steve Turner wrote: On 4/9/2011 7:29 PM, Jim Yanik wrote: wrote in m: "Steve Turner" wrote in message ... A continuation of the "Why does the 115V-24V transformer keep blowing on my Trane XB80?" discussion I started on 04/02/2011. Yep, My A/C unit blew another transformer. Pictures (and wiring diagram) he http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...7626457562742/ Trane's manual for the unit is here (for perhaps better viewing of the wiring diagrams that I also copied to my above flickr site as jpg images): http://www.trane.com/webcache/un/fur...oduct/22-1666- 07_04012009.pdf As you can probably see in the pictures, there is visible charring of the 115V leads going into the transformer, and of course the 115V circuit is open (again). If you didn't see my first thread, this is the third transformer the unit has blown. In the previous discussion, it was discussed that perhaps the first one just blew because of old age (6 years), and the second blew because it wasn't a proper replacement (poor quality, made in China, etc.). This third unit is most certainly a proper replacement, and it's most certainly indicative of a real problem I have somewhere else in the unit. I didn't see any such charring on the previous two units, at least not like this. I never got a real chance to test out the system after installing this third transformer. We had cool weather for several days, and I never tried to force the system to come on so I could monitor it; that was probably a mistake. Unfortunately, I was also absent from the premises during the extended times when the unit was most likely operational, so that didn't help either. However, my family tells me that it WAS working and cooling the house rather nicely, for at least a day, perhaps two. I'm getting 115V in all the right places, so it doesn't look like an over-voltage condition to me. Perhaps it's an overheating condition? It looks to me like the only real load on this circuit is the blower motor; could the motor be causing this? The blower spins freely when I turn it by hand. Start capacitor on the motor maybe? Relay on the control board perhaps? a bad start cap would not affect the 24v control transformer,that just powers the controller board and relays. either something is loading the transformer or a problem with input voltage. Just a thought, When you put the new transformer in does the "Diagnostic Light" LED turn on ? Does the LED blink or flash in one of the patterns indicated in the "diagnostic codes" section that you posted a link to ? The "diagnostic codes" imply that the control board can detect several of the problems mentioned by others. Maybe a good starting point as there is not enough time to test with test equipment. robb a line voltage monitor may be needed to see if there's some short-term overvoltage applied to the transformer,and a oscilloscope may determine if the input waveform is sinusoidal or otherwise,because 60hz iron core tranformers don't like extreme distortion on their input,it gets converted to heat,not output voltage. a DMM will not show line distortion or short term overvoltages. are the wires burned close to the transformer,or over their entire length? I peeled the insulation back from the hot and neutral wires and the burning only occurred right at the terminals, no more than 1/4" into the wiring. Steve, Not to be rude or anything, but a LOT of talk has gone on about your problem and I have not seen any further posts from you on the matter. No comments about any suggestions at all. I'm not going to spend any more time on this thread until we hear back from the original poster with more information otherwise we are simply blowing smoke (sorry - couldn't resist). John :-#)# Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:32:56 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. You bought the fuses, right? I DON'T want to hear about another blown transformer. --Vic |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
In m, D Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/12/2011 9:23 PM Don Klipstein spake thus: I have yet to look at these diagrams, but is the circuit board powered by this tranny shown to "board level" as opposed to "component level"? If so, then the board can have, probably does have, a rectifier not shown in the diagram. With all the pontificating you've been doing here, Don, I would've thought you'd at least had glanced at the wiring diagrams the OP posted, way up there somewhere. Sheesh. The controller is shown as a block. It most certainly has at least one rectifier on it, as it contains electronics that no doubt requires DC power to operate. Thought you'd have figured it out. (Not just a relay board.) With such indication even as described here giving low indication as to rectification having a 1-component bridge rectifier, 4 discrete diodes, a fed-with-center-tap 2-diode fullwave scheme, 2 separate diodes or a single 3-lead dual-diode used for that... If the controller is only shown as a block, how well does it show the rectifier scheme, as in whether the rectifier's diodes are discrete individual diodes or integrated into one rectifier package? If anyone here sees that noted to such extent that it's not a waste of my time to take a look there, please pipe up! -- - Don Klipstein ) |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
"Vic Smith" Steve Turner Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. You bought the fuses, right? I DON'T want to hear about another blown transformer. ** Be real smart for the OP to purchase some OTHER 120/24 volt tranny and use it. The things are a dime a dozen. And fit a "slo-blo" 1/4 amp fuse to the primary. ..... Phil |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Phil Allison wrote: "Vic Smith" Steve Turner Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. You bought the fuses, right? I DON'T want to hear about another blown transformer. ** Be real smart for the OP to purchase some OTHER 120/24 volt tranny and use it. The things are a dime a dozen. And fit a "slo-blo" 1/4 amp fuse to the primary. .... Phil Hmmm, What is fuse gonna do? Instead of blowing x-former,, blow fuses? Then still it is not right. Let;s go back from begining. How old is the system? When this blowing tranny started? From day 1 or some time(month, years after the system is installed? If tranny is hot to touch when in use, that is rad flag. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
"Tony Hwang" ** Be real smart for the OP to purchase some OTHER 120/24 volt tranny and use it. The things are a dime a dozen. And fit a "slo-blo" 1/4 amp fuse to the primary. What is fuse gonna do? ** Blow immediately if the tranny is overloaded. Instead of blowing x-former,, blow fuses? ** This is the usual purpose of fuses. Then still it is not right. ** Then you can find the cause of the overload - cos the tranny still functions. ****wit. ..... Phil |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Steve Turner wrote:
On 4/13/2011 10:51 PM, John Robertson wrote: Steve Turner wrote: On 4/9/2011 7:29 PM, Jim Yanik wrote: wrote in m: "Steve Turner" wrote in message ... A continuation of the "Why does the 115V-24V transformer keep blowing on my Trane XB80?" discussion I started on 04/02/2011. Yep, My A/C unit blew another transformer. Pictures (and wiring diagram) he http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...7626457562742/ Trane's manual for the unit is here (for perhaps better viewing of the wiring diagrams that I also copied to my above flickr site as jpg images): http://www.trane.com/webcache/un/fur...oduct/22-1666- 07_04012009.pdf As you can probably see in the pictures, there is visible charring of the 115V leads going into the transformer, and of course the 115V circuit is open (again). If you didn't see my first thread, this is the third transformer the unit has blown. In the previous discussion, it was discussed that perhaps the first one just blew because of old age (6 years), and the second blew because it wasn't a proper replacement (poor quality, made in China, etc.). This third unit is most certainly a proper replacement, and it's most certainly indicative of a real problem I have somewhere else in the unit. I didn't see any such charring on the previous two units, at least not like this. I never got a real chance to test out the system after installing this third transformer. We had cool weather for several days, and I never tried to force the system to come on so I could monitor it; that was probably a mistake. Unfortunately, I was also absent from the premises during the extended times when the unit was most likely operational, so that didn't help either. However, my family tells me that it WAS working and cooling the house rather nicely, for at least a day, perhaps two. I'm getting 115V in all the right places, so it doesn't look like an over-voltage condition to me. Perhaps it's an overheating condition? It looks to me like the only real load on this circuit is the blower motor; could the motor be causing this? The blower spins freely when I turn it by hand. Start capacitor on the motor maybe? Relay on the control board perhaps? a bad start cap would not affect the 24v control transformer,that just powers the controller board and relays. either something is loading the transformer or a problem with input voltage. Just a thought, When you put the new transformer in does the "Diagnostic Light" LED turn on ? Does the LED blink or flash in one of the patterns indicated in the "diagnostic codes" section that you posted a link to ? The "diagnostic codes" imply that the control board can detect several of the problems mentioned by others. Maybe a good starting point as there is not enough time to test with test equipment. robb a line voltage monitor may be needed to see if there's some short-term overvoltage applied to the transformer,and a oscilloscope may determine if the input waveform is sinusoidal or otherwise,because 60hz iron core tranformers don't like extreme distortion on their input,it gets converted to heat,not output voltage. a DMM will not show line distortion or short term overvoltages. are the wires burned close to the transformer,or over their entire length? I peeled the insulation back from the hot and neutral wires and the burning only occurred right at the terminals, no more than 1/4" into the wiring. Steve, Not to be rude or anything, but a LOT of talk has gone on about your problem and I have not seen any further posts from you on the matter. No comments about any suggestions at all. I'm not going to spend any more time on this thread until we hear back from the original poster with more information otherwise we are simply blowing smoke (sorry - couldn't resist). John :-#)# Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. Hi Steve, Have you tried asking Trane themselves if they have a suggestion as to the cause of the problem? http://www.trane.com/Residential/Cus...Care/Feed-Back Of course they may just send you to your local dealer, but it is worth a try... John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 11:54 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 4/13/2011 7:02 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Still here. Waiting on delivery of new transformer; can't really do anything until that arrives. Taking notes and enjoying the very interesting conversations this thread has spawned. I never dreamed it would spark such interest! Well, it's something that everybody knows a little about, and is just nebulous enough to take down dark and twisty and OT passageways. Let me sum up a bit. 1) Fuse it. 2) That transformer also runs the thermostat and dehumidifier components. Make sure there is nothing wrong there. 3) The control board has changed for unknown reasons, price the replacement, in case. 4) Keep an eye on it, feel it to make sure it is not running hot (warm OK), run it through some cycles. 5) Double check power wiring and polarity Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/13/2011 8:02 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Amazing, haw yau change one litter, and the entier meening of the ward changes. Not bad Stormy. ;-) And hey, you "fixed" your newsreader, what's with that? :-) Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
You make a lot of sense. As well as being comical. I agree,
that we don't have enough information to be sure. I have a few guess what is wrong, but I'm also just guessing. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "John Robertson" wrote in message ... I'm not going to spend any more time on this thread until we hear back from the original poster with more information otherwise we are simply blowing smoke (sorry - couldn't resist). John :-#)# |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Usenet is like that, some of the more compelling trolls get
ignored, and some of the otherwise routine questions get a mass pile on of advice and ideas. I think you've had a lot of really good advice, so far. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Steve Turner" wrote in message ... On 4/13/2011 7:02 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Still here. Waiting on delivery of new transformer; can't really do anything until that arrives. Taking notes and enjoying the very interesting conversations this thread has spawned. I never dreamed it would spark such interest! -- "Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day." (From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago) To reply, eat the taco. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/ |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
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Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:19:22 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote: Phil Allison wrote: "Vic Smith" Steve Turner Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Rest assured I appreciate all the input and I'm taking it all into consideration. Thanks. You bought the fuses, right? I DON'T want to hear about another blown transformer. ** Be real smart for the OP to purchase some OTHER 120/24 volt tranny and use it. The things are a dime a dozen. And fit a "slo-blo" 1/4 amp fuse to the primary. .... Phil Hmmm, What is fuse gonna do? Instead of blowing x-former,, blow fuses? Then still it is not right. Let;s go back from begining. How old is the system? When this blowing tranny started? From day 1 or some time(month, years after the system is installed? If tranny is hot to touch when in use, that is rad flag. A RAD flag - is that something like a "turkey timer" that pops up when the rad overheats? The fuse would hopefully pop first, saving the transformer long enough to actually do some troubleshooting. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 03:06:08 -0400, Jeff Thies
wrote: On 4/13/2011 11:54 PM, Steve Turner wrote: On 4/13/2011 7:02 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: I figure we'll hear back in a day or two. The fellow will have found something wrong, put a transformer in, and everything is good. Still here. Waiting on delivery of new transformer; can't really do anything until that arrives. Taking notes and enjoying the very interesting conversations this thread has spawned. I never dreamed it would spark such interest! Well, it's something that everybody knows a little about, and is just nebulous enough to take down dark and twisty and OT passageways. Let me sum up a bit. 1) Fuse it. 2) That transformer also runs the thermostat and dehumidifier components. Make sure there is nothing wrong there. I'm assuming you mean HUMIDIFIER - and if so, you really SHOULD change that. 3) The control board has changed for unknown reasons, price the replacement, in case. 4) Keep an eye on it, feel it to make sure it is not running hot (warm OK), run it through some cycles. 5) Double check power wiring and polarity Jeff |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In , Steve wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. The design of the first transformer makes it virtually impossible to open it up (remove the tape) without destroying the windings, (which I did) so there is no possibility of "repairing" it by installing a thermal fuse (as some suggested). There is evidence of burning at the input contactors just like there is on the third transformer (the one I took pictures of), but not quite as bad. I wouldn't call it an "explosion". There is no evidence of a thermal fuse. On the second transformer (a completely different brand and style) there was no evidence of burning. Again, it too was virtually impossible to open up with destroying it, so I didn't bother. However, because everyone has been so curious, I just did open it up (destroying it in the process) and there IS a thermal fuse on the input side; it is open, which explains why there is no burning. The third transformer is similar to the first in design (except for the extra 208 and 240 legs, which, per the instructions, I taped off and ignored). It is also virtually impossible to remove the tape to gain access to the primary windings without breaking through the wires, but I did, and again there is no evidence of a thermal fuse. I see no reason to conclude there are "3 distinct, unrelated failures". |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote: In , Steve wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. The design of the first transformer makes it virtually impossible to open it up (remove the tape) without destroying the windings, (which I did) so there is no possibility of "repairing" it by installing a thermal fuse (as some suggested). There is evidence of burning at the input contactors just like there is on the third transformer (the one I took pictures of), but not quite as bad. I wouldn't call it an "explosion". There is no evidence of a thermal fuse. On the second transformer (a completely different brand and style) there was no evidence of burning. Again, it too was virtually impossible to open up with destroying it, so I didn't bother. However, because everyone has been so curious, I just did open it up (destroying it in the process) and there IS a thermal fuse on the input side; it is open, which explains why there is no burning. The third transformer is similar to the first in design (except for the extra 208 and 240 legs, which, per the instructions, I taped off and ignored). It is also virtually impossible to remove the tape to gain access to the primary windings without breaking through the wires, but I did, and again there is no evidence of a thermal fuse. I see no reason to conclude there are "3 distinct, unrelated failures". Just because you can't fix something, it doesn't mean that failure analysis is moot. I'd be doing serious exploratory surgery on all 3 of those transformers to try to understand what the hell happened. I'm not "concluding" that there are 3 distinct unrelated failures, I'm suggesting it as a possibility. The first, OEM transformer lasted 6 years. The second transformer lasted a few days, and by your own admission was a cheap knockoff that may not have been suited for your application at all. And the 3rd transformer may well have failed due to improper wiring, or a loose connection leading to excessive current leading to insulation breakdown and a hard short, or as has been suggested repeatedly, a fault somewhere on the secondary side. You've also agreed that there are wire color discrepancies and several respondents have opined that both halves of the primary should, perhaps, have been wired in parallel to accommodate the current requirements. So, I too am curious, have you acquired some appropriate fuses, figured out how to monitor the current, and been able to schedule some time off from your other responsibilities so that you can actually work through this puzzle once the new xformer arrives? Are you equipped to bench test the new transformer to verify wiring color scheme before you install it? Do you know how to test that bridge rectifier? Seems like you have a *lot* you could be doing while waiting for the UPS guy. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On 4/14/2011 12:06 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In , Steve wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote: In , Steve wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. The design of the first transformer makes it virtually impossible to open it up (remove the tape) without destroying the windings, (which I did) so there is no possibility of "repairing" it by installing a thermal fuse (as some suggested). There is evidence of burning at the input contactors just like there is on the third transformer (the one I took pictures of), but not quite as bad. I wouldn't call it an "explosion". There is no evidence of a thermal fuse. On the second transformer (a completely different brand and style) there was no evidence of burning. Again, it too was virtually impossible to open up with destroying it, so I didn't bother. However, because everyone has been so curious, I just did open it up (destroying it in the process) and there IS a thermal fuse on the input side; it is open, which explains why there is no burning. The third transformer is similar to the first in design (except for the extra 208 and 240 legs, which, per the instructions, I taped off and ignored). It is also virtually impossible to remove the tape to gain access to the primary windings without breaking through the wires, but I did, and again there is no evidence of a thermal fuse. I see no reason to conclude there are "3 distinct, unrelated failures". Just because you can't fix something, it doesn't mean that failure analysis is moot. I'd be doing serious exploratory surgery on all 3 of those transformers to try to understand what the hell happened. I'm not "concluding" that there are 3 distinct unrelated failures, I'm suggesting it as a possibility. The first, OEM transformer lasted 6 years. The second transformer lasted a few days, and by your own admission was a cheap knockoff that may not have been suited for your application at all. Others sorta concluded that for me. It was "Made in China" and has a bit of a different form factor, but that's the only evidence I have so say it might not have been "suitable". The transformer was similarly rated, and internally it doesn't look much different from the others, so I still have no real reason to believe it shouldn't have worked. And the 3rd transformer may well have failed due to improper wiring, or a loose connection leading to excessive current leading to insulation breakdown and a hard short, or as has been suggested repeatedly, a fault somewhere on the secondary side. You've also agreed that there are wire color discrepancies and several respondents have opined that both halves of the primary should, perhaps, have been wired in parallel to accommodate the current requirements. I brought the old transformer to a local HVAC supply house, and the sales person (whom I perceived to be at least somewhat of an expert), gave me the third transformer as a suitable replacment. I chose to connect the transformer according to the instructions, and not according to any speculation "opined" in this group. So, I too am curious, have you acquired some appropriate fuses, figured out how to monitor the current, and been able to schedule some time off from your other responsibilities so that you can actually work through this puzzle once the new xformer arrives? Are you equipped to bench test the new transformer to verify wiring color scheme before you install it? Do you know how to test that bridge rectifier? Seems like you have a *lot* you could be doing while waiting for the UPS guy. I'm sorry you feel that I'm not "doing" anything or that I'm leaving you hanging, but I'll be making the repairs on my own schedule, as time permits. My own place of employ has me working 12 and 16 hour days, so I can't be everywhere at once. Plus, the weather here is pleasant and there's been no real need to run the air conditioner, and the house has two A/C units anyway so I'm in no hurry. I don't have the fuses or fuse holders yet, but the transformer isn't going in without them, so it will be taken care of. My common sense tells me that I really shouldn't *have* to test and verify the living daylights out of a new transformer, but I will most certainly get bitched out here if I don't, so yes, that will be done. I don't really recall the discussion about the bridge rectifier, but I'll look for it. I will be reviewing the entire discussion and make a checklist of all the steps I need to perform. Anything else? |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
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Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote: I chose to connect the transformer according to the instructions, and not according to any speculation "opined" in this group. Which instructions are those? You're not putting in an OEM transformer, so you can't very well use the OEM instructions. Carry on. My money's on you breaking out the Jewish toolbox pretty soon. That's not a bad thing, but if you don't have the time or inclination to DIY, there's no sense pretending you do. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Apr 14, 2:37*pm, Steve Turner
wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:06 PM, Smitty Two wrote: In , * Steve *wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote: In , * *Steve * wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. The design of the first transformer makes it virtually impossible to open it up (remove the tape) without destroying the windings, (which I did) so there is no possibility of "repairing" it by installing a thermal fuse (as some suggested). * *There is evidence of burning at the input contactors just like there is on the third transformer (the one I took pictures of), but not quite as bad. *I wouldn't call it an "explosion". *There is no evidence of a thermal fuse. On the second transformer (a completely different brand and style) there was no evidence of burning. *Again, it too was virtually impossible to open up with destroying it, so I didn't bother. *However, because everyone has been so curious, I just did open it up (destroying it in the process) and there IS a thermal fuse on the input side; it is open, which explains why there is no burning. The third transformer is similar to the first in design (except for the extra 208 and 240 legs, which, per the instructions, I taped off and ignored). *It is also virtually impossible to remove the tape to gain access to the primary windings without breaking through the wires, but I did, and again there is no evidence of a thermal fuse. I see no reason to conclude there are "3 distinct, unrelated failures".. Just because you can't fix something, it doesn't mean that failure analysis is moot. I'd be doing serious exploratory surgery on all 3 of those transformers to try to understand what the hell happened. I'm not "concluding" that there are 3 distinct unrelated failures, I'm suggesting it as a possibility. The first, OEM transformer lasted 6 years. The second transformer lasted a few days, and by your own admission was a cheap knockoff that may not have been suited for your application at all. Others sorta concluded that for me. *It was "Made in China" and has a bit of a different form factor, but that's the only evidence I have so say it might not have been "suitable". *The transformer was similarly rated, and internally it doesn't look much different from the others, so I still have no real reason to believe it shouldn't have worked. And the 3rd transformer may well have failed due to improper wiring, or a loose connection leading to excessive current leading to insulation breakdown and a hard short, or as has been suggested repeatedly, a fault somewhere on the secondary side. You've also agreed that there are wire color discrepancies and several respondents have opined that both halves of the primary should, perhaps, have been wired in parallel to accommodate the current requirements. I brought the old transformer to a local HVAC supply house, and the sales person (whom I perceived to be at least somewhat of an expert), gave me the third transformer as a suitable replacment. *I chose to connect the transformer according to the instructions, and not according to any speculation "opined" in this group. So, I too am curious, have you acquired some appropriate fuses, figured out how to monitor the current, and been able to schedule some time off from your other responsibilities so that *you can actually work through this puzzle once the new xformer arrives? Are you equipped to bench test the new transformer to verify wiring color scheme before you install it? Do you know how to test that bridge rectifier? Seems like you have a *lot* you could be doing while waiting for the UPS guy. I'm sorry you feel that I'm not "doing" anything or that I'm leaving you hanging, but I'll be making the repairs on my own schedule, as time permits. My own place of employ has me working 12 and 16 hour days, so I can't be everywhere at once. *Plus, the weather here is pleasant and there's been no real need to run the air conditioner, and the house has two A/C units anyway so I'm in no hurry. *I don't have the fuses or fuse holders yet, but the transformer isn't going in without them, so it will be taken care of. *My common sense tells me that I really shouldn't *have* to test and verify the living daylights out of a new transformer, but I will most certainly get bitched out here if I don't, so yes, that will be done. *I don't really recall the discussion about the bridge rectifier, but I'll look for it. *I will be reviewing the entire discussion and make a checklist of all the steps I need to perform. Anything else?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - After you put it in, measure the current and voltages in both the primary and secondary. I'd measure them both with the AC running and with it not running. Also, not sure if anyone ever covered this, but when the transformers have failed have they all been in cooling mode, heating, or both? |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
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Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:41:03 -0400, Jeff Thies
wrote: I'm assuming you mean HUMIDIFIER - and if so, you really SHOULD change that. No need, you did it for me. No, I mean the humidifier should have it's OWN transformer, not piggyback off the control transformer. Anything I post after 3AM is subject to some errors. |
Blew another damn transformer on my Trane XB80
Steve Turner wrote:
On 4/14/2011 2:54 PM, wrote: On Apr 14, 2:37 pm, Steve wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:06 PM, Smitty Two wrote: In , Steve wrote: On 4/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote: In , Steve wrote: Just mentioned elsewhere that I have a new transformer on order and I can't really do anything until that arrives. Sure you could. You could open up those other two transformers and check for an open thermal fuse. As I recall, you said neither of them failed in the same manner as the third. I still say you could have 3 distinct, unrelated failures. The design of the first transformer makes it virtually impossible to open it up (remove the tape) without destroying the windings, (which I did) so there is no possibility of "repairing" it by installing a thermal fuse (as some suggested). There is evidence of burning at the input contactors just like there is on the third transformer (the one I took pictures of), but not quite as bad. I wouldn't call it an "explosion". There is no evidence of a thermal fuse. On the second transformer (a completely different brand and style) there was no evidence of burning. Again, it too was virtually impossible to open up with destroying it, so I didn't bother. However, because everyone has been so curious, I just did open it up (destroying it in the process) and there IS a thermal fuse on the input side; it is open, which explains why there is no burning. The third transformer is similar to the first in design (except for the extra 208 and 240 legs, which, per the instructions, I taped off and ignored). It is also virtually impossible to remove the tape to gain access to the primary windings without breaking through the wires, but I did, and again there is no evidence of a thermal fuse. I see no reason to conclude there are "3 distinct, unrelated failures". Just because you can't fix something, it doesn't mean that failure analysis is moot. I'd be doing serious exploratory surgery on all 3 of those transformers to try to understand what the hell happened. I'm not "concluding" that there are 3 distinct unrelated failures, I'm suggesting it as a possibility. The first, OEM transformer lasted 6 years. The second transformer lasted a few days, and by your own admission was a cheap knockoff that may not have been suited for your application at all. Others sorta concluded that for me. It was "Made in China" and has a bit of a different form factor, but that's the only evidence I have so say it might not have been "suitable". The transformer was similarly rated, and internally it doesn't look much different from the others, so I still have no real reason to believe it shouldn't have worked. And the 3rd transformer may well have failed due to improper wiring, or a loose connection leading to excessive current leading to insulation breakdown and a hard short, or as has been suggested repeatedly, a fault somewhere on the secondary side. You've also agreed that there are wire color discrepancies and several respondents have opined that both halves of the primary should, perhaps, have been wired in parallel to accommodate the current requirements. I brought the old transformer to a local HVAC supply house, and the sales person (whom I perceived to be at least somewhat of an expert), gave me the third transformer as a suitable replacment. I chose to connect the transformer according to the instructions, and not according to any speculation "opined" in this group. So, I too am curious, have you acquired some appropriate fuses, figured out how to monitor the current, and been able to schedule some time off from your other responsibilities so that you can actually work through this puzzle once the new xformer arrives? Are you equipped to bench test the new transformer to verify wiring color scheme before you install it? Do you know how to test that bridge rectifier? Seems like you have a *lot* you could be doing while waiting for the UPS guy. I'm sorry you feel that I'm not "doing" anything or that I'm leaving you hanging, but I'll be making the repairs on my own schedule, as time permits. My own place of employ has me working 12 and 16 hour days, so I can't be everywhere at once. Plus, the weather here is pleasant and there's been no real need to run the air conditioner, and the house has two A/C units anyway so I'm in no hurry. I don't have the fuses or fuse holders yet, but the transformer isn't going in without them, so it will be taken care of. My common sense tells me that I really shouldn't *have* to test and verify the living daylights out of a new transformer, but I will most certainly get bitched out here if I don't, so yes, that will be done. I don't really recall the discussion about the bridge rectifier, but I'll look for it. I will be reviewing the entire discussion and make a checklist of all the steps I need to perform. Anything else?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - After you put it in, measure the current and voltages in both the primary and secondary. I'd measure them both with the AC running and with it not running. Also, not sure if anyone ever covered this, but when the transformers have failed have they all been in cooling mode, heating, or both? Yep, I'll do that. It's only in cooling mode that the transformers have failed, but I'm in Texas and we're long past the point where we'll be needing the heater for a while, so it's hard to say whether or not running the heat would also trigger the problem. Steve, As said before the best thing to do is to fuse both the primary and secondary windings. If you have the recommended (original) transformer ratings handy that should make it easy to figure out. For example, if the secondary (24VAC as I recall) is rated at 1A, then the primary fuse is 1/5 of that (24:120 - plus a fudge factor) suggesting that a 0.25A slo-blo should last fairly well, and a 1A slo-blo on the secondary winding. If the secondary is rated at 2A, then I'd go with a 0.5A slo-blo on the primary, along with a 2A slo-blo on the secondary. Two fuse holders should be fine - one for the 120VAC side and one for the 24VAC side. Hope this helps - at least it will reduce the cost of replacing transformers! John :-#)# -- (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
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