Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo. Changed out the old
FPE subpanel panel to a new one, worked out great. Now I am changing
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
The outlet looks like this:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...D7 4&pid=1208

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...402-240797.jpg

On Apr 1, 1:51*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo. Changed out the old
FPE subpanel panel to a new one, worked out great. Now I am changing
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A *double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
The outlet looks like this:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=DCD83CFDDBC....

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. *Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...-05821-00A-rw-...

The outlet should be rated to at least the breaker.

What's plugged into it? While it is ok to have a 3 wire 220 outlet it
is no longer ok to use the ground and neutral interchangably at the
outlet. So many 220 appliances have switched to 4 wires with a 4
prong plug.

On 4/1/2011 11:51 AM, Mikepier wrote:
Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo. Changed out the old
FPE subpanel panel to a new one, worked out great. Now I am changing
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
The outlet looks like this:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...D7 4&pid=1208

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...402-240797.jpg


If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

--
bud--

If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

--
bud--

Thanks. It is the only outlet for a wall A/C unit.

And the wire is 12/2 BX. So the metal clad is ground. The box is
steel. I am still going to put a green ground wire tail from the box
to the outlet.

On 04/01/11 02:47 pm, Mikepier wrote:

If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

Thanks. It is the only outlet for a wall A/C unit.

And the wire is 12/2 BX. So the metal clad is ground. The box is
steel. I am still going to put a green ground wire tail from the box
to the outlet.

But doesn't BX already have a bare copper ground conductor? The metal
sheath isn't the only ground connection -- at least, if I am remembering
correctly from the last time I used it, about ten years ago.

Perce

On Apr 1, 3:27*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
On 04/01/11 02:47 pm, Mikepier wrote:

If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.
Thanks. It is the only outlet for a wall A/C unit.

And the wire is 12/2 BX. So the metal clad is ground. The box is
steel. I am still going to put a green ground wire tail from the box
to the outlet.

But doesn't BX already have a bare copper ground conductor? The metal
sheath isn't the only ground connection -- at least, if I am remembering
correctly from the last time I used it, about ten years ago.

not OLD BX.

nate

Mikepier wrote:
Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo. Changed out the old
FPE subpanel panel to a new one, worked out great. Now I am changing
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
The outlet looks like this:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...D7 4&pid=1208

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...402-240797.jpg


If it's the only receptacle on the circuit, it should match the
breaker. So either replace it with the one you pictured, or you could
use a 15A (or 20A) 240V duplex receptacle. Using a duplex device
would allow you to use a 15A device because now there'd be more than 1
receptacle on the circuit.

(I would probably just leave it alone even though it is not
technically correct)

-Bob

On 4/1/2011 1:08 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 4/1/2011 11:51 AM, Mikepier wrote:
....
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
....

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?
....

If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

AFAIK, 15 and 20A outlets are both UL tested for 20A; the only
difference is the prong arrangement to not allow a 20A cordset to plug
into a 15A outlet but the 15A plug is still ok w/ a 20A breaker.

I know this is so for 120V and while I didn't go look at the current UL
protocol I'm virtually positive the same is true for 250V rated outlets.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

True dat if replacing anyway or new work...but I don't believe there's
any overriding reason to replace the existing "just because" or for Code
reasons.

--

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 04/01/11 02:47 pm, Mikepier wrote:

If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

Thanks. It is the only outlet for a wall A/C unit.

And the wire is 12/2 BX. So the metal clad is ground. The box is
steel. I am still going to put a green ground wire tail from the box
to the outlet.

But doesn't BX already have a bare copper ground conductor? The metal
sheath isn't the only ground connection -- at least, if I am remembering
correctly from the last time I used it, about ten years ago.

Perce

** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
If it is the only receptacle on the circuit (and 20A breaker and #12
wire) it should be 20A.

In any case, there is no reason not to use a 20A receptacle.

--
bud--

Thanks. It is the only outlet for a wall A/C unit.

And the wire is 12/2 BX. So the metal clad is ground. The box is
steel. I am still going to put a green ground wire tail from the box
to the outlet.


** As Bud and DPB said, since you're replacing it, you may as well use the
20 amp receptacle

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 1:51 pm, Mikepier wrote:
Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo. Changed out the old
FPE subpanel panel to a new one, worked out great. Now I am changing
out the old outlets. One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was
originally connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage wire.
The outlet looks like this:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=DCD83CFDDBC...

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This outlet is
only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A breaker. Do I need to put
in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...-05821-00A-rw-...

The outlet should be rated to at least the breaker.

What's plugged into it? While it is ok to have a 3 wire 220 outlet it
is no longer ok to use the ground and neutral interchangably at the
outlet. So many 220 appliances have switched to 4 wires with a 4
prong plug.

**There is no neutral on a 240 volt air conditioner outlet, and grounds and
neutrals were never interchangeable on such appliances.

** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's ground.

In ,
RBM typed:
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 1:51 pm, Mikepier
wrote:
Doing some reno work in my brother-in-laws condo.
Changed out the old FPE subpanel panel to a new one,
worked out great. Now I am changing out the old outlets.
One of them is a 220V A/C outlet that was originally
connected to a 20A double polebreaker with 12 guage
wire. The outlet looks like this:
http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=DCD83CFDDBC...

My question is should I replace with the same kind? This
outlet is only rated for 15A, meanwhile I have a 20A
breaker. Do I need to put in a 20A outlet like this?

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images...-05821-00A-rw-...

The outlet should be rated to at least the breaker.

What's plugged into it? While it is ok to have a 3 wire
220 outlet it is no longer ok to use the ground and neutral
interchangably at the outlet. So many 220 appliances
have switched to 4 wires with a 4 prong plug.

**There is no neutral on a 240 volt air conditioner
outlet, and grounds and neutrals were never
interchangeable on such appliances.

Exactly! Only the two hots and earth ground are necessary.

HTH,

Twayne`

On 4/1/2011 3:33 PM, dpb wrote:
....

AFAIK, 15 and 20A outlets are both UL tested for 20A; the only
difference is the prong arrangement to not allow a 20A cordset to plug
into a 15A outlet but the 15A plug is still ok w/ a 20A breaker.

I know this is so for 120V and while I didn't go look at the current UL
protocol I'm virtually positive the same is true for 250V rated outlets.
....

UL 498 contains the following for overload testing--

"A flush or self-contained receptacle having a 5-15R, 5-20R, 6-15R or
6-20R configuration shall be subjected to the overload test described in
this Section."

So the section covers both 125V and 250V together w/ the same test reqm'ts.

--

On 4/1/2011 6:14 PM, dpb wrote:
On 4/1/2011 3:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

AFAIK, 15 and 20A outlets are both UL tested for 20A; the only
difference is the prong arrangement to not allow a 20A cordset to plug
into a 15A outlet but the 15A plug is still ok w/ a 20A breaker.

I know this is so for 120V and while I didn't go look at the current UL
protocol I'm virtually positive the same is true for 250V rated outlets.
...

UL 498 contains the following for overload testing--

"A flush or self-contained receptacle having a 5-15R, 5-20R, 6-15R or
6-20R configuration shall be subjected to the overload test described in
this Section."

So the section covers both 125V and 250V together w/ the same test reqm'ts.
....

Oooohhh...it's written slightly different than I thought regarding the
test load, though...the load is 150% of the rated load for the device
rather than a specific test load that I thought I remembered.

So, if manufacturers really want to scrimp and test the devices as
separate, they can get by w/ 22-1/2A test load for 15A device and a 30A
for 20A device. I don't know if they go to that extreme or not...

--

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

I don't know where you come up with your nonsense. For one thing, the
bonding wire inside some AC cable was to assure a fault current path, and
was never connected to anything .
I have several coils of AC cable in my truck, none of which have a grounding
conductor, copper, or otherwise, insulated or bare.

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:56:33 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

I don't know where you come up with your nonsense. For one thing, the
bonding wire inside some AC cable was to assure a fault current path, and
was never connected to anything .
I have several coils of AC cable in my truck, none of which have a grounding
conductor, copper, or otherwise, insulated or bare.


MCAP is a relatively new standard. Look up southwire mcap. Nolan has
some good info on it.

I depended on Northern cable's site for the rest of my information,
which was incomplete. There are a lot more than 3 types of spiral
wound metallic cable. I checked with Allied cable, one of the larger
cable manufacturers. According to THEIR specs:
MC-TUFF cable is steel, MC Lite is aluminum, MC Lite ig is insulated
ground aluminum. all,with no integrated bond , and with the conductors
taped

HCF90 is green steel with insulated ground and bare bonding connector.
HSF Lite is the same but aluminum. For HEALTH CARE applications.

AC90 is steel with an integrated bond ribbon
AC Lite is aluminum with an integrated bond
All AC cable have the conductors wrapped with paper or raffia

And I'll be danged if I can figure out what they would call the
hundreds of feet of aluminum sheathed cable with aluminum integrated
bond strip AND bare ground wire I pulled last fall would be called -
obviously not made by Allied.

It met the description given by Northern for their AC spec cable. (and
was LIKELY Northern cable - I don't have the rolls kicking around to
check

What brand is your "ac" cable that does not have an aluminum bonding
strip, and is it steel (ac) or aluminum (ac lite).
Sounds like MC cable rather than AC if it has no bond ribbon. Is it
paper separated, or plastic "taped"?


And years ago, it was all "BX"

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:17:06 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

and the PROPER way to install it was with the bond ribbon bent back
over the sheath and captured by the box connector, not cut off flush
with the sheath.. Inspectors were not happy if they found an end
without the ribbon bent back before the anti-short was installed.
The bare ground wire solved that, even though the bond strip was still
there and best practice was still to bend it back under the cable
connector. The "bond strip" in parallel with the coiled sheath had the
effect of electrically shortening the length of the "ground" conductor
and eliminating the "choke" effect of the coiled grounding conductor
when ground fault current existed. This made it possible to use the
sheath as a ground. Previously it was not used AS a ground, but was
required to BE grounded.

Since MC cable does not have a bonding ribbon as part of it's spec, a
ground wire is pretty well a requirement for most applications -
virtually all MC cable I've seen over the last 20 years or so has had
an insulated ground wire, while the vast majority of the AC cable I've
run into (installed since the sixties) has had a bare ground.

Possibly becuase I don't get involved with wiring in the USA, and
GENERALLY Canada has higher electrical safety requirements (or at
least different ) than the USA.

As for the "BX" designation, WAY back in the 1800s Greenfield had
their model "B" flexible conduit, and in about 1900 they brought out
an experimental "B" model flex, which had the wires already
installed. When it hit the market, according to the generally accepted
version of the truth, it was referred to as "B Experimental",
shortened on the order sheets to "BX".
Might be "BS", but that's the generally accepted story.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson
and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to
AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

Grew up watching my Dad use it (was required in NYC at the time '50-'70) but
may not be now. Never heard it called anything but BX cable. (-: I guess
it's one of those things like Kleenex or Xerox. The tradename overtakes the
common name. I can still remember moving south and seeing Romex for the
first time. Oops. I mean non-metallic sheathed cable from the Rome wire
company.

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 1, 6:31*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Mikepier" wrote in message

...

** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's ground.

Then why do they put a seperate green ground conductor in the aluminum
MC cable where conventional BX did not have a seperate ground?
These days if you go to Lowes or HD, all they have is MC Lite 12/2
with a ground. I think HD still has the "classic" 12/2 steel BX on
the shelf with no seperate ground.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:56:33 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

I don't know where you come up with your nonsense. For one thing, the
bonding wire inside some AC cable was to assure a fault current path, and
was never connected to anything .

I was always told that the bond wire was not for fault current. It
was to short the coils of steel so there were no induced current, but
I was not able to find a cite faster than I lost interest.


I have several coils of AC cable in my truck, none of which have a grounding
conductor, copper, or otherwise, insulated or bare.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:56:33 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

I don't know where you come up with your nonsense. For one thing, the
bonding wire inside some AC cable was to assure a fault current path, and
was never connected to anything .

I was always told that the bond wire was not for fault current. It
was to short the coils of steel so there were no induced current, but
I was not able to find a cite faster than I lost interest.

** You are exactly right. It lays across the coils of the cable to assure a
straight path for any fault current


I have several coils of AC cable in my truck, none of which have a
grounding
conductor, copper, or otherwise, insulated or bare.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 6:31 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Mikepier" wrote in message

...

** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

Then why do they put a seperate green ground conductor in the aluminum
MC cable where conventional BX did not have a seperate ground?
These days if you go to Lowes or HD, all they have is MC Lite 12/2
with a ground. I think HD still has the "classic" 12/2 steel BX on
the shelf with no seperate ground.

They are simply two different types of cables, which are used for different
purposes. For example: In places of public assembly, you can use MC cable ,
but AC cable is not allowed.
Aluminum sheathed AC cable has been on the market since 1959, the same year
that the Nec required AC cable to have the bond conductor

On 4/1/2011 8:42 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 19:56:33 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 18:31:03 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
** MC cable has an additional copper ground conductor-

Yes, that is known as MC lite with the aluminum clad . But the old BX
relied on the steel clad for a ground.

** and the new BX (AC) lite relies on it's aluminum shield for it's
ground.

All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.
The new BX (plastic insulated cable instead of rubber, with "raffia"
liner) virtually all had a bare copper ground.

Now, to get down to the real differences on CURRENT spiral wound
metallic sheithed cable.

There are 3 basic types, MC, AC, and MC/AP

MC has an insulated green or green and yellow ground.
AC has a bare copper ground.
MC/AP has a full sized copper ground wire attached full length to the
sheath, allowing the sheath to be used as safety ground - but that
wire is cut flush with the sheath and REQUIRES special connectors
where the cable enters the metal box.

I don't know where you come up with your nonsense. For one thing, the
bonding wire inside some AC cable was to assure a fault current path, and
was never connected to anything .
I have several coils of AC cable in my truck, none of which have a grounding
conductor, copper, or otherwise, insulated or bare.


MCAP is a relatively new standard. Look up southwire mcap. Nolan has
some good info on it.

I depended on Northern cable's site for the rest of my information,
which was incomplete. There are a lot more than 3 types of spiral
wound metallic cable. I checked with Allied cable, one of the larger
cable manufacturers. According to THEIR specs:
MC-TUFF cable is steel, MC Lite is aluminum, MC Lite ig is insulated
ground aluminum. all,with no integrated bond , and with the conductors
taped

HCF90 is green steel with insulated ground and bare bonding connector.
HSF Lite is the same but aluminum. For HEALTH CARE applications.

AC90 is steel with an integrated bond ribbon
AC Lite is aluminum with an integrated bond
All AC cable have the conductors wrapped with paper or raffia

And I'll be danged if I can figure out what they would call the
hundreds of feet of aluminum sheathed cable with aluminum integrated
bond strip AND bare ground wire I pulled last fall would be called -
obviously not made by Allied.

It met the description given by Northern for their AC spec cable. (and
was LIKELY Northern cable - I don't have the rolls kicking around to
check

What brand is your "ac" cable that does not have an aluminum bonding
strip, and is it steel (ac) or aluminum (ac lite).
Sounds like MC cable rather than AC if it has no bond ribbon. Is it
paper separated, or plastic "taped"?


And years ago, it was all "BX"

BX was outlawed around these parts many years ago. There is MC
everywhere in buildings in this area, I use a lot of it.

TDD

On 4/1/2011 9:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson
and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to
AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

Grew up watching my Dad use it (was required in NYC at the time '50-'70) but
may not be now. Never heard it called anything but BX cable. (-: I guess
it's one of those things like Kleenex or Xerox. The tradename overtakes the
common name. I can still remember moving south and seeing Romex for the
first time. Oops. I mean non-metallic sheathed cable from the Rome wire
company.

--
Bobby G.



The Romex my dad taught me about had plastic insulated conductors
covered with some kind of jacket that was silver and looked sort
of like fish scales. It was some sort of fiber reinforced paper,
possibly tar paper with a silver finish. We wired the family home
with it back in the 1950's and 1960's. Darn, I'm getting old. :-)

TDD

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:35:39 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/1/2011 9:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson
and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to
AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

Grew up watching my Dad use it (was required in NYC at the time '50-'70) but
may not be now. Never heard it called anything but BX cable. (-: I guess
it's one of those things like Kleenex or Xerox. The tradename overtakes the
common name. I can still remember moving south and seeing Romex for the
first time. Oops. I mean non-metallic sheathed cable from the Rome wire
company.

--
Bobby G.



The Romex my dad taught me about had plastic insulated conductors
covered with some kind of jacket that was silver and looked sort
of like fish scales. It was some sort of fiber reinforced paper,
possibly tar paper with a silver finish. We wired the family home
with it back in the 1950's and 1960's. Darn, I'm getting old. :-)

TDD
My dad was an electrician, and when he came home after working all day
with Romex, particularly on a hot summer day, he was BLACK.
Was he ever happy when they came out with the plastic sheathed
stuff!!! That old stuff was NASTY.

On 4/2/2011 3:58 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:35:39 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/1/2011 9:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus Johnson
and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given to
AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

Grew up watching my Dad use it (was required in NYC at the time '50-'70) but
may not be now. Never heard it called anything but BX cable. (-: I guess
it's one of those things like Kleenex or Xerox. The tradename overtakes the
common name. I can still remember moving south and seeing Romex for the
first time. Oops. I mean non-metallic sheathed cable from the Rome wire
company.

--
Bobby G.



The Romex my dad taught me about had plastic insulated conductors
covered with some kind of jacket that was silver and looked sort
of like fish scales. It was some sort of fiber reinforced paper,
possibly tar paper with a silver finish. We wired the family home
with it back in the 1950's and 1960's. Darn, I'm getting old. :-)

TDD
My dad was an electrician, and when he came home after working all day
with Romex, particularly on a hot summer day, he was BLACK.
Was he ever happy when they came out with the plastic sheathed
stuff!!! That old stuff was NASTY.

I like MC cable since I got a turntable dispenser for rolls of wire
coiled like MC is. It comes off straight with no kinks or loops and
does make it so much easier to install the cable for long runs.

TDD

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:35:39 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 4/1/2011 9:14 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
All but the very oldest BX cable had a flat bonding conductor inside
that was to be used, NOT the sheath.


** FYI, AC cable was invented at the turn of the century by Gus
Johnson
and
Harry Greenfield. "BX" was never a code designation, just a name given
to
AC
cable made by GE's Sprague division. The bonding conductor wasn't
required
until the 1959 Nec and was never used as a ground, only to assure a
clean
grounding path against the metal coils of the sheath

Grew up watching my Dad use it (was required in NYC at the time
'50-'70) but
may not be now. Never heard it called anything but BX cable. (-: I
guess
it's one of those things like Kleenex or Xerox. The tradename
overtakes the
common name. I can still remember moving south and seeing Romex for
the
first time. Oops. I mean non-metallic sheathed cable from the Rome
wire
company.

--
Bobby G.



The Romex my dad taught me about had plastic insulated conductors
covered with some kind of jacket that was silver and looked sort
of like fish scales. It was some sort of fiber reinforced paper,
possibly tar paper with a silver finish. We wired the family home
with it back in the 1950's and 1960's. Darn, I'm getting old. :-)

TDD
My dad was an electrician, and when he came home after working all day
with Romex, particularly on a hot summer day, he was BLACK.
Was he ever happy when they came out with the plastic sheathed
stuff!!! That old stuff was NASTY.

I have one run of it in the basement where the previous owner's son built a
room - probably in the '60s and I always wondered WTF is this stuff? Never
seen it before nor since. It really is odd looking stuff compared to what
came before and what came after.

In this case, it was two conductor without ground and a neutral drawn from a
different circuit because he was tapping off an existing lighting circuit to
create a wall outlet. sigh He also paneled the room using furring
strips, no insulation or prep and banging holes into weak cinderblock with
nails that did a lot of damage. I guess you have to learn somewhere. When
I built a darkroom in my parent's basement my plumbing and electrical work
didn't look very professional, either.

The rest is old 1940 cloth wiring and my newer blue NM 12 w/G. Bought two
250' reels in 1985 from Hechinger's for $28 - still half plenty of it left.
I wonder what it costs now? Rewiring an old, small Cape Cod doesn't take a
lot of wire, just a lot of patience. Now at least every circuit that draws
more that 10A is on the newer wire. The cloth is still holding up, but it
doesn't tolerate a lot of fussing with. But it runs to the attic and then
drops down to the various rooms. It was easier to leave that in place and
to simply add new runs from the basement to the kitchen and other places
where I didn't want to take a chance pulling 15A for space heaters, central
vacuum., radial arm saw, etc. on the old cloth wire.

--
Bobby G.

In ,
dpb typed:
On 4/1/2011 3:33 PM, dpb wrote:
...

AFAIK, 15 and 20A outlets are both UL tested for 20A;
the only difference is the prong arrangement to not
allow a 20A cordset to plug into a 15A outlet but the
15A plug is still ok w/ a 20A breaker. I know this is so for 120V and
while I didn't go look at
the current UL protocol I'm virtually positive the same
is true for 250V rated outlets. ...

UL 498 contains the following for overload testing--

"A flush or self-contained receptacle having a 5-15R,
5-20R, 6-15R or 6-20R configuration shall be subjected to
the overload test described in this Section."

So the section covers both 125V and 250V together w/ the
same test reqm'ts.

No , you don't read ANY UL (or any safety spec) and go to work based ONLY on
that spec. You have to also read any references it gives, and any specs on
how it's connected, to what, and so on. The fact that UL accepts any
component is ALWAYS dependent on how that component is used. UL DOES NOT
test for real-world applications; it specs what can be connected to it via
more specs, NOT components. It is far from putting a UL tag on a complete
system when it's only part of a complete system, other parts of which are
unknown, so those specs must be interpreted also.
Worked meeting UL specs in designs for ten years, compliance to specs for
another then.

On 4/3/2011 2:10 PM, Twayne wrote:

UL DOES NOT
test for real-world applications;

Another useless post.

I have an old UL standard for Snap Switches (like a wall switch).

For AC only switches the tests include the following - at rated voltage:
10,000 operations at rated current
10,000 operations at rated current and power factor around 0.8
10,000 operations at rated current controlling incandescent loads
100 operations at 4.8x rated current and power factor around 0.5

At the end of all these operations the switch has to still be functional.

How is that not "real-world"?

--
bud--