A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make it
more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware store
and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible like
garden hose and is legal to use?

"bob" wrote in message
...
A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make
it more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware
store and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible
like garden hose and is legal to use?

No, nothing else as good. Just because you can't squeeze the pex does not
mean it won't flex when frozen. Thee may be other ways to prevent the
freezup though, such as a valve further up in the line that you close so the
rest of the line drains.

On Mar 24, 12:59*am, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:59:03 -0700, "bob" wrote:
A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make it
more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware store
and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible like
garden hose and is legal to use?

PEX is fine. It will expanded and contract during freezing, *but will
not break or leak. Trick is to not have sharp radius bends that kinks
the pipe. There is also "Therma Pex" for in ground use...

anther solution is relocating the outside outlet so it no longer goes
thru unheated space, and if you wish to keep the outlet where it is
valve it back in the heated area and drain every winter which isnt a
bad idea even with PEX

On Mar 24, 8:57*am, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 24, 12:59*am, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:59:03 -0700, "bob" wrote:
A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make it
more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware store
and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible like
garden hose and is legal to use?

PEX is fine. It will expanded and contract during freezing, *but will
not break or leak. Trick is to not have sharp radius bends that kinks
the pipe. There is also "Therma Pex" for in ground use...

anther solution is relocating the outside outlet so it no longer goes
thru unheated space, and if you wish to keep the outlet where it is
valve it back in the heated area and drain every winter which isnt a
bad idea even with PEX

I've heard more cautious comments about pex and freezing. That it is
more resistant but a hard freeze will expand it more than it will
contract back when thawed. Enough hard freezes and it will break
eventually. Put a turn off valve further back up the line would be
the best solution.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:18:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"bob" wrote in message
...
A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make
it more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware
store and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible
like garden hose and is legal to use?

No, nothing else as good. Just because you can't squeeze the pex does not
mean it won't flex when frozen. Thee may be other ways to prevent the
freezup though, such as a valve further up in the line that you close so the
rest of the line drains.

Pex may resist bursting, but it is not designed to be repeatedly frozen.
Either drain the line for the winter or use heat tape.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:46:35 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Mar 24, 8:57*am, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 24, 12:59*am, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:59:03 -0700, "bob" wrote:
A section of copper pipe in my garage (supplies an outside faucet) wall
bursted during winter. I heard replacing that section with PEX would make it
more freeze resistant. I went and checked out PEX pipe at a hardware store
and they don't feel all that flexible. Is there something flexible like
garden hose and is legal to use?

PEX is fine. It will expanded and contract during freezing, *but will
not break or leak. Trick is to not have sharp radius bends that kinks
the pipe. There is also "Therma Pex" for in ground use...

anther solution is relocating the outside outlet so it no longer goes
thru unheated space, and if you wish to keep the outlet where it is
valve it back in the heated area and drain every winter which isnt a
bad idea even with PEX

I've heard more cautious comments about pex and freezing. That it is
more resistant but a hard freeze will expand it more than it will
contract back when thawed. Enough hard freezes and it will break
eventually. Put a turn off valve further back up the line would be
the best solution.

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

On Mar 26, 8:06*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote



I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. *How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. *In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. *It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. * No way would I trust it.

then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote



I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. *How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. *In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. *It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. * No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. One two-month period I let it drip a little.

then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.





then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

well you could upgrade, install a valve thats easy to reach feeding
the outdoor line, and a hose bib by it, so getting ready for winter
close isolation valve open hose bib, no tools no climbing no frozen
lines no work no effort

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.





then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a turn off valve you may simply be able to turn off the
valve and leave the faucet open during the winter.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Mar 27, 7:13Â*am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. Â*We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. Â*So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. Â*One two-month period I let it drip a little.

then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a turn off valve you may simply be able to turn off the
valve and leave the faucet open during the winter.


I'm always surprised when I see this talk of hose lines freezing.
It's standard up north to have an inside shutoff and close it when
winter rolls around, then open the outside faucet.
I've got one in front and one in back. Takes no more than 5 minutes.
It'a easier than cleaning gutters, another late fall ritual.
Never saw a "freezeproof" valve.
All it takes extra is a 3 buck valve and a nipple for an inside shut
off.
Maybe they don't get enough freezes down south to make it standard?
Another reason might be the disadvantage of using other than
galvanized lends itself to taking those shortcuts..
You're going to have sweat an additional 2 joints with copper and add
whatever fittings required by PEX of plastic.
With galvanized it's just a little more cranking.
Another thing I don't get is this removing brick to get at a water
fitting. Seems to be design by criminals.
And running anything but lead pipe through concrete, and tearing up
100-year slabs because of a 10-year leak.
Seems to be short term thinking behind that too.
I suppose that's fear of lead poisoning, but there's mostly lead
water feeds up here around Chicago, and nobody's pulling them out.
I feel ok, but do get dumber as time goes by.

--Vic

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.





then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a turn off valve you may simply be able to turn off the
valve and leave the faucet open during the winter.

That's a good point. I have always opened the faucet, but after I
drained the pipe, since I was up on the ladder anyhow. But the
hardest part by far is that knurled cap, so maybe I could skip that.

I'll think about it. Thanks and thanks Bob

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:41:39 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:06 am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"mm" wrote

I have that valve but I'm tired of using it. How effective are those
styroam boxes that go over the spigot and are held on with sort of
like a rubber band?

They insulate, they don't make heat. In really cold weather, once the heat
is gone, it will freeze. It relies on heat being transferred from inside
and not being lost. No way would I trust it.

I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.

then relocate valve to a place thats heated in winter and install a
freeze proof valve. you should still disconnect garden hose in winter.

a neighbor didnt like worrying about freezing outside faucets. he
replaced the damaged ones and never used them again.

he had a faucet nstalled indoors and ran the garden hose out the door.
kinda inconvenient if you ask me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a turn off valve you may simply be able to turn off the
valve and leave the faucet open during the winter.


I'm always surprised when I see this talk of hose lines freezing.
It's standard up north to have an inside shutoff and close it when
winter rolls around, then open the outside faucet.
I've got one in front and one in back. Takes no more than 5 minutes.
It'a easier than cleaning gutters, another late fall ritual.
Never saw a "freezeproof" valve.

I don't know when they were invented but they must sell them by now
where you are. They look like they work great. UP to 18 inches or
more long and the faucet seat is thus 18" from the outside of the
house. In my case they means well into the basment, where it never
gets very cold. No draining, no closing another valve, no nothing.
EVerytime you turn off the faucet, unless there is hose with a cap on
it connected, all the water drains from the 18" between the faucet
seat and the outside. Just like it does now the 2" from the faucet
seat and the outside.

Is there any disadvantage to the thing?

If I replumb the front faucet, that's what I'll put in. In the rear,
it's 22 feet above the basement rec reoom ceiling before the pipe
comes out.

All it takes extra is a 3 buck valve and a nipple for an inside shut
off.

Not sure what you mean by nipple.

Maybe they don't get enough freezes down south to make it standard?
Another reason might be the disadvantage of using other than
galvanized lends itself to taking those shortcuts..

TWo negatives. I have to read this again. No, I'm not using
galvanized. Copper.

You're going to have sweat an additional 2 joints with copper and add
whatever fittings required by PEX of plastic.

You're back to the OP's post, which is fine.

With galvanized it's just a little more cranking.
Another thing I don't get is this removing brick to get at a water
fitting. Seems to be design by criminals.
And running anything but lead pipe through concrete, and tearing up
100-year slabs because of a 10-year leak.
Seems to be short term thinking behind that too.
I suppose that's fear of lead poisoning, but there's mostly lead
water feeds up here around Chicago, and nobody's pulling them out.
I feel ok, but do get dumber as time goes by.

--Vic

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.

I'm guessing you live in the County, then, because no one living in
Baltimore City and paying those rates for water would waste it all
Winter like that! grin

If you're just talking about a faucet that runs through heated space
and then through a wall to outside (like mine were when I lived in a
rowhouse in Loch Raven Village), then yeah, there's a lower
possibility of freeze-up. But the OP's outside line runs through the
unheated space of a garage which is a long run through space that,
while marginally less cold than out-outside, is still often below
freezing...and for too many of us was below freezing for extended
periods of time this Winter!

On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Kyle
wrote:

On Mar 27, 7:13*am, mm wrote:
I have to check with my neighborss. *We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. *So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. *One two-month period I let it drip a little.

I'm guessing you live in the County, then, because no one living in
Baltimore City and paying those rates for water would waste it all
Winter like that! grin

It's worse than that. They forgot, or something, to put water meters
in my n'hood, so the 109 houses have only one meter and we split the
water evenly with each other, so anything I use only affects my bill
by 1% of it.

If you're just talking about a faucet that runs through heated space
and then through a wall to outside (like mine were when I lived in a
rowhouse in Loch Raven Village),

Hey, that's near me!

And yes, it comes through one wall from my basement, which is heated.

then yeah, there's a lower
possibility of freeze-up. But the OP's outside line runs through the
unheated space of a garage which is a long run through space that,
while marginally less cold than out-outside, is still often below
freezing...and for too many of us was below freezing for extended
periods of time this Winter!

I must say, I"ve lost track of the OPost, and I hope he wasn't trying
to apply my situation to his.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Kyle
wrote:

On Mar 27, 7:13 am, mm wrote:
I have to check with my neighborss. We all have the same house
construction, and I doubt everyone drains their pipe for the winter,
like i did until two years ago. So now, one is drained and I don't
use it, but the other I have to get on a ladder and use a pliers to
open the knurled cap and the water runs onto things stored underneath,
and the knurling on the cap is wearing out.

IOW, it's marginal or maybe unnecessary whether draining is needed n
Baltimore. One two-month period I let it drip a little.

I'm guessing you live in the County, then, because no one living in
Baltimore City and paying those rates for water would waste it all
Winter like that! grin

It's worse than that. They forgot, or something, to put water meters
in my n'hood, so the 109 houses have only one meter and we split the
water evenly with each other, so anything I use only affects my bill
by 1% of it.

If you're just talking about a faucet that runs through heated space
and then through a wall to outside (like mine were when I lived in a
rowhouse in Loch Raven Village),

Hey, that's near me!

There seem to be a fair number of folks here from the Balt/DC area. We
should have a monthly lunch somewhere near the Laurel Harbor Freight. One
of my other groups does it and it's really a hoot to put faces to the posts.
And see if some of us really do have horns and a long, spaded tail. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:09:42 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:



There seem to be a fair number of folks here from the Balt/DC area. We
should have a monthly lunch somewhere near the Laurel Harbor Freight. One

I'm willing, ready, and able.

of my other groups does it and it's really a hoot to put faces to the posts.
And see if some of us really do have horns and a long, spaded tail. (-:

A bunch of us from another group got together several ryears ago and
the one who caused all the trouble didn't live that far away, and we
all wondered if he'd come. He didn't.