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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote:


Same with Clinton's surpluses. I have long called those
Gates-Greenspan surpluses. Gates as a surrogate for the great increases
in productivity (actually the basis for your discussion above) brought
about by computers and Greenspan for keeping rates so low for so long.
There was one great shining moment when the economy was so
breathtakingly overheated that the money was coming in faster than even
the combined work of BOTH parties could shove it out the door.


Sounds like two sides of the same coin, sad but true. Just like the real
estate boom, people convince themselves that the good times will last
forever. Those sorts of rare financial confluences we've discussed are not
what people should base their budget projections on, but that's clearly what
happened.

All the unfunded public pensions and healthcare liabilities are really just
a different form of Ponzi scheme where you often take a lower salary in the
gov't (especially legal/acct folks) in exchange for well-defined future
benefits that oddly tend to slowly evaporate over the years. Just like that
Greek fable of Tantalus, they move out of reach when you go to "eat" them.

Many times pension defaults are just passed onto the taxpayer. Funny, when
I want to make sure no one runs off with money before a contract is sealed,
I use escrow accounts. Apparently Big Business just uses the Feds instead,
just as the Fed uses the SSA trust fund as "free money."

As the increasing demands on the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. indicate,

http://www.pbgc.gov/

a.. March 17, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Böwe Bell + Howell Co.
b.. March 15, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Erving Industries
c.. February 28, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Forum Health in
Youngstown, Ohio
d.. February 23, 2011 PBGC Negotiates $3.7 Million Additional Pension
Funding
for Workers at Chicken of the Sea International

why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go
bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago
promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up
systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down.
All we need is a killer California earthquake to make a real mess out of
things. California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I
believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of
food than politics.

I'm betting there's not one retiree here who didn't get screwed out of
something they were promised as part of their compensation package.

--
Bobby G.




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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message

Sounds like two sides of the same coin, sad but true. Just like the real
estate boom, people convince themselves that the good times will last
forever. Those sorts of rare financial confluences we've discussed are not
what people should base their budget projections on, but that's clearly what
happened.

All trees grow to the sky, doncha know. It is one of the definitions
of a bubble that the perception is HAS to go on.


All the unfunded public pensions and healthcare liabilities are really just
a different form of Ponzi scheme where you often take a lower salary in the
gov't (especially legal/acct folks) in exchange for well-defined future
benefits that oddly tend to slowly evaporate over the years. Just like that
Greek fable of Tantalus, they move out of reach when you go to "eat" them.

Many times pension defaults are just passed onto the taxpayer. Funny, when
I want to make sure no one runs off with money before a contract is sealed,
I use escrow accounts. Apparently Big Business just uses the Feds instead,
just as the Fed uses the SSA trust fund as "free money."


There is no such thing as a SS trust fund, at least in any
definition that wouldn't get a non-governmental agency tossed in the
clink. SS has *ALWAYS* been pay as you go with the current crop of
employed paying for the current crop of retired. That worked pretty well
when the worker to retiree ratio ran around 14:1, not so much when the
Boomers get fully retired and the ratio drops to around 5:1 or less.
To "address" this predicament, the Congress in the mid-80s or so
increased the SS tax and "put some back". The problem is that by law the
ONLY place the extra money could go was into treasury security..
NON-MARKETABLE treasury securities. However there was not then, nor has
there ever been, an income stream to repay those securities, let alone
the interest. So, even if the government had been frugal and well
mannered fiscally, we would still owe the SS fund the exact same amount
of money. And, because the long term liability (the money owed to SS)
was treated as a short term asset (the "surplus") we hid the true
mammoth proportions of the REAL debt. And continue to do so.



why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go
bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago
promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up
systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down.


Starting with government and working way down.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke
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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:39 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

There is no such thing as a SS trust fund, at least in any
definition that wouldn't get a non-governmental agency tossed in the
clink. SS has *ALWAYS* been pay as you go with the current crop of
employed paying for the current crop of retired. That worked pretty well
when the worker to retiree ratio ran around 14:1, not so much when the
Boomers get fully retired and the ratio drops to around 5:1 or less.
To "address" this predicament, the Congress in the mid-80s or so
increased the SS tax and "put some back". The problem is that by law the
ONLY place the extra money could go was into treasury security..
NON-MARKETABLE treasury securities. However there was not then, nor has
there ever been, an income stream to repay those securities, let alone
the interest. So, even if the government had been frugal and well
mannered fiscally, we would still owe the SS fund the exact same amount
of money. And, because the long term liability (the money owed to SS)
was treated as a short term asset (the "surplus") we hid the true
mammoth proportions of the REAL debt. And continue to do so.


SS isn't a big problem.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_social_security
"The national debt now tops $14 trillion, including the $2.6 trillion
owed to Social Security."

"Owed to SS" means something.
Despite you saying there is no SS trust fund, $37 billion in SS
securities were redeemed and paid out last year.
So far reality does not match your politics.
That could change, but I doubt it.
Monies extracted from the paychecks of workers and used to reduce the
tax burden of the wealthy should be paid back.
That's only my opinion of course.
$37 billion is peanuts to raise in taxes over a year.
$2.7 trillion is peanuts to raise in taxes over 26 years, which is the
projected time when the SS trust fund is depleted.
Of course I'm talking about raising income tax rates.
Time to pay debt.
And I don't buy this tax hike for only earners making $250k or above
either. Everybody can pitch in except those making near poverty
wages.
Whenever I got in debt I reduced spending and worked more to get
revenue so I could retire debt.
But I *never* defaulted on my debt.
Government should act no differently.

"The Social Security trust funds are projected to be drained by 2037
if Congress does not act, according to the trustees who oversee the
program. At that point, payroll tax receipts would be enough to pay
about 78 percent of benefits."

So *if nothing changes* by 2037 22% more SS revenue is required to
maintain current benefits.
But there are many ways to achieve change.
Lifting SS taxing caps.
Means testing.
Raising retirement age.
Raising SS taxes.
General revenue supplementation.
I personally don't like means testing and don't think millionaires
should be excluded from collecting SS unless they volunteer.
Just not right since all SS contributions are accounted for and should
be paid back.
Higher income tax rates on millionaires will cause them to wail less.
Raising retirement age needs exclusions for those doing arduous labor.
That's a tricky one.
Lifting SS earnings caps and/or raising SS tax rates seems the easiest
course.
These are only my views.
But I believe in SS.
You have no problem with old folks living in gutters. (-:

--Vic












why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go
bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago
promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up
systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down.


Starting with government and working way down.


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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)


"Vic Smith" wrote


"The Social Security trust funds are projected to be drained by 2037
if Congress does not act, according to the trustees who oversee the
program. At that point, payroll tax receipts would be enough to pay
about 78 percent of benefits."

So *if nothing changes* by 2037 22% more SS revenue is required to
maintain current benefits.
But there are many ways to achieve change.
Lifting SS taxing caps.
Means testing.
Raising retirement age.
Raising SS taxes.
General revenue supplementation.
I personally don't like means testing and don't think millionaires
should be excluded from collecting SS unless they volunteer.
Just not right since all SS contributions are accounted for and should
be paid back.
Higher income tax rates on millionaires will cause them to wail less.
Raising retirement age needs exclusions for those doing arduous labor.
That's a tricky one.
Lifting SS earnings caps and/or raising SS tax rates seems the easiest
course.
These are only my views.
But I believe in SS.
You have no problem with old folks living in gutters. (-:

--Vic


One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think
of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under
"retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them,
but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some
other way.

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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:57:14 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think
of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under
"retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them,
but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some
other way.


I've wondered about that myself.
Used to stay a couple weeks at a rented timeshare at St. Pete beach
for vacation.
Got to talking with some timeshare owners from Georgia down there.
Husband and wife, younger than me. Drove new expensive cars.
They seemed healthy enough to me. Moved well.
Both were on SS disability.
But you never know, so I can't judge that. Made me wonder though.
Doesn't help to see these lawyer ads on TV all the time selling how
they'll get you on SS disability.
I've always wondered why the gov doesn't spend more on fraud
investigation. Bet that staff is a huge profit center.

--Vic


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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

In article ,
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think
of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under
"retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them,
but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some
other way.


Interesting article about SS Disability Insurance.
http://www.economist.com/node/18332928

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke
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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

Robert Green wrote:

California is to our
food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're
seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics.


Correct. The top agricultural products of California a

* Tree nuts - $3.1 billion
* Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion
* Vegetables - $2 billion
* Dairy - $838 million

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and
nuts."


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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsinpublic workers)

On 3/18/2011 3:51 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Robert Green wrote:

California is to our
food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're
seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics.


Correct. The top agricultural products of California a

* Tree nuts - $3.1 billion
* Fruits& fruit products - $3 billion
* Vegetables - $2 billion
* Dairy - $838 million

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and
nuts."



That's kind of cheesy. snicker

TDD
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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

HeyBub wrote:
Robert Green wrote:

California is to our
food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're
seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than
politics.


Correct. The top agricultural products of California a

* Tree nuts - $3.1 billion
* Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion
* Vegetables - $2 billion
* Dairy - $838 million

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits
and nuts."


There you go with erronious data. The largest cash crop of California is pot.
(13.8 B)

http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/cashcrops.html

So much for "the land of fruits and nuts". :-)

Think maybe we ought to legalize and tax it?



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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

Bob F wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
Robert Green wrote:

California is to our
food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're
seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than
politics.


Correct. The top agricultural products of California a

* Tree nuts - $3.1 billion
* Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion
* Vegetables - $2 billion
* Dairy - $838 million

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits
and nuts."


There you go with erronious data. The largest cash crop of California
is pot. (13.8 B)

http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/cashcrops.html

So much for "the land of fruits and nuts". :-)

Think maybe we ought to legalize and tax it?


You may be correct - I was referring ('though I didn't say so) to exports.

As to "legalizing and taxing," I've often thought that would be a good idea
for killing someone I didn't like. I suppose a modest fine would be
equivalent to a tax...




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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Robert Green wrote:

California is to our
food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're
seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics.


Correct. The top agricultural products of California a

* Tree nuts - $3.1 billion
* Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion
* Vegetables - $2 billion
* Dairy - $838 million

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and
nuts."


Why do I always feed you such wonderful straight lines?

Seriously, though, I expect that we're due for a real ass-kicking disaster
now that it's clear that the Feds and state and local governments haven't
been saving for a rainy day, but in fact are spending as if there is no
tomorrow. Maybe they're right. It's been 100 years since the great Frisco
quake and we've been remarkably lucky in the recent round of earthquake
roulette. 0 and 00 are still on the wheel, waiting.

--
Bobby G.



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Default OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)

I think that would be 0bama, and 00bama. This
administration has prevented domestic oil
production, building power plants, and all kinds
of things that make it possible for America to
be prosperous. Our great disaster doesn't have
to be a weather or earth based event. Might be
a political strangling of the USA citizens.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Robert Green" wrote in message
...

It is not for nothing that California is known as "The
land of fruits and
nuts."


Why do I always feed you such wonderful straight lines?

Seriously, though, I expect that we're due for a real
ass-kicking disaster
now that it's clear that the Feds and state and local
governments haven't
been saving for a rainy day, but in fact are spending as if
there is no
tomorrow. Maybe they're right. It's been 100 years since
the great Frisco
quake and we've been remarkably lucky in the recent round of
earthquake
roulette. 0 and 00 are still on the wheel, waiting.

--
Bobby G.




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