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#1
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote: Same with Clinton's surpluses. I have long called those Gates-Greenspan surpluses. Gates as a surrogate for the great increases in productivity (actually the basis for your discussion above) brought about by computers and Greenspan for keeping rates so low for so long. There was one great shining moment when the economy was so breathtakingly overheated that the money was coming in faster than even the combined work of BOTH parties could shove it out the door. Sounds like two sides of the same coin, sad but true. Just like the real estate boom, people convince themselves that the good times will last forever. Those sorts of rare financial confluences we've discussed are not what people should base their budget projections on, but that's clearly what happened. All the unfunded public pensions and healthcare liabilities are really just a different form of Ponzi scheme where you often take a lower salary in the gov't (especially legal/acct folks) in exchange for well-defined future benefits that oddly tend to slowly evaporate over the years. Just like that Greek fable of Tantalus, they move out of reach when you go to "eat" them. Many times pension defaults are just passed onto the taxpayer. Funny, when I want to make sure no one runs off with money before a contract is sealed, I use escrow accounts. Apparently Big Business just uses the Feds instead, just as the Fed uses the SSA trust fund as "free money." As the increasing demands on the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. indicate, http://www.pbgc.gov/ a.. March 17, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Böwe Bell + Howell Co. b.. March 15, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Erving Industries c.. February 28, 2011 PBGC to Pay Pension Benefits at Forum Health in Youngstown, Ohio d.. February 23, 2011 PBGC Negotiates $3.7 Million Additional Pension Funding for Workers at Chicken of the Sea International why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down. All we need is a killer California earthquake to make a real mess out of things. California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. I'm betting there's not one retiree here who didn't get screwed out of something they were promised as part of their compensation package. -- Bobby G. |
#2
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote: "Kurt Ullman" wrote in message Sounds like two sides of the same coin, sad but true. Just like the real estate boom, people convince themselves that the good times will last forever. Those sorts of rare financial confluences we've discussed are not what people should base their budget projections on, but that's clearly what happened. All trees grow to the sky, doncha know. It is one of the definitions of a bubble that the perception is HAS to go on. All the unfunded public pensions and healthcare liabilities are really just a different form of Ponzi scheme where you often take a lower salary in the gov't (especially legal/acct folks) in exchange for well-defined future benefits that oddly tend to slowly evaporate over the years. Just like that Greek fable of Tantalus, they move out of reach when you go to "eat" them. Many times pension defaults are just passed onto the taxpayer. Funny, when I want to make sure no one runs off with money before a contract is sealed, I use escrow accounts. Apparently Big Business just uses the Feds instead, just as the Fed uses the SSA trust fund as "free money." There is no such thing as a SS trust fund, at least in any definition that wouldn't get a non-governmental agency tossed in the clink. SS has *ALWAYS* been pay as you go with the current crop of employed paying for the current crop of retired. That worked pretty well when the worker to retiree ratio ran around 14:1, not so much when the Boomers get fully retired and the ratio drops to around 5:1 or less. To "address" this predicament, the Congress in the mid-80s or so increased the SS tax and "put some back". The problem is that by law the ONLY place the extra money could go was into treasury security.. NON-MARKETABLE treasury securities. However there was not then, nor has there ever been, an income stream to repay those securities, let alone the interest. So, even if the government had been frugal and well mannered fiscally, we would still owe the SS fund the exact same amount of money. And, because the long term liability (the money owed to SS) was treated as a short term asset (the "surplus") we hid the true mammoth proportions of the REAL debt. And continue to do so. why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down. Starting with government and working way down. -- "Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on." ---PJ O'Rourke |
#3
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:42:39 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote: There is no such thing as a SS trust fund, at least in any definition that wouldn't get a non-governmental agency tossed in the clink. SS has *ALWAYS* been pay as you go with the current crop of employed paying for the current crop of retired. That worked pretty well when the worker to retiree ratio ran around 14:1, not so much when the Boomers get fully retired and the ratio drops to around 5:1 or less. To "address" this predicament, the Congress in the mid-80s or so increased the SS tax and "put some back". The problem is that by law the ONLY place the extra money could go was into treasury security.. NON-MARKETABLE treasury securities. However there was not then, nor has there ever been, an income stream to repay those securities, let alone the interest. So, even if the government had been frugal and well mannered fiscally, we would still owe the SS fund the exact same amount of money. And, because the long term liability (the money owed to SS) was treated as a short term asset (the "surplus") we hid the true mammoth proportions of the REAL debt. And continue to do so. SS isn't a big problem. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_social_security "The national debt now tops $14 trillion, including the $2.6 trillion owed to Social Security." "Owed to SS" means something. Despite you saying there is no SS trust fund, $37 billion in SS securities were redeemed and paid out last year. So far reality does not match your politics. That could change, but I doubt it. Monies extracted from the paychecks of workers and used to reduce the tax burden of the wealthy should be paid back. That's only my opinion of course. $37 billion is peanuts to raise in taxes over a year. $2.7 trillion is peanuts to raise in taxes over 26 years, which is the projected time when the SS trust fund is depleted. Of course I'm talking about raising income tax rates. Time to pay debt. And I don't buy this tax hike for only earners making $250k or above either. Everybody can pitch in except those making near poverty wages. Whenever I got in debt I reduced spending and worked more to get revenue so I could retire debt. But I *never* defaulted on my debt. Government should act no differently. "The Social Security trust funds are projected to be drained by 2037 if Congress does not act, according to the trustees who oversee the program. At that point, payroll tax receipts would be enough to pay about 78 percent of benefits." So *if nothing changes* by 2037 22% more SS revenue is required to maintain current benefits. But there are many ways to achieve change. Lifting SS taxing caps. Means testing. Raising retirement age. Raising SS taxes. General revenue supplementation. I personally don't like means testing and don't think millionaires should be excluded from collecting SS unless they volunteer. Just not right since all SS contributions are accounted for and should be paid back. Higher income tax rates on millionaires will cause them to wail less. Raising retirement age needs exclusions for those doing arduous labor. That's a tricky one. Lifting SS earnings caps and/or raising SS tax rates seems the easiest course. These are only my views. But I believe in SS. You have no problem with old folks living in gutters. (-: --Vic why should a business actually pay for past peformance when they can go bankrupt, reorganize, discard their liabilities including money long ago promised elsewhere and stick the taxpayers with the bill? We've set up systems that make no economic sense and they are grinding this country down. Starting with government and working way down. |
#4
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
"Vic Smith" wrote "The Social Security trust funds are projected to be drained by 2037 if Congress does not act, according to the trustees who oversee the program. At that point, payroll tax receipts would be enough to pay about 78 percent of benefits." So *if nothing changes* by 2037 22% more SS revenue is required to maintain current benefits. But there are many ways to achieve change. Lifting SS taxing caps. Means testing. Raising retirement age. Raising SS taxes. General revenue supplementation. I personally don't like means testing and don't think millionaires should be excluded from collecting SS unless they volunteer. Just not right since all SS contributions are accounted for and should be paid back. Higher income tax rates on millionaires will cause them to wail less. Raising retirement age needs exclusions for those doing arduous labor. That's a tricky one. Lifting SS earnings caps and/or raising SS tax rates seems the easiest course. These are only my views. But I believe in SS. You have no problem with old folks living in gutters. (-: --Vic One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under "retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them, but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some other way. |
#5
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:57:14 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote: One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under "retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them, but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some other way. I've wondered about that myself. Used to stay a couple weeks at a rented timeshare at St. Pete beach for vacation. Got to talking with some timeshare owners from Georgia down there. Husband and wife, younger than me. Drove new expensive cars. They seemed healthy enough to me. Moved well. Both were on SS disability. But you never know, so I can't judge that. Made me wonder though. Doesn't help to see these lawyer ads on TV all the time selling how they'll get you on SS disability. I've always wondered why the gov doesn't spend more on fraud investigation. Bet that staff is a huge profit center. --Vic |
#6
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
In article ,
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote: One way to control SS is to control where the money goes. Most of us think of it as retirement, but plenty of children, disabled, and others under "retirement" age are getting checks. Sure, some would starve without them, but I have to wonder how many are not legitimate or should be funded some other way. Interesting article about SS Disability Insurance. http://www.economist.com/node/18332928 -- "Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on." ---PJ O'Rourke |
#7
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
Robert Green wrote:
California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. Correct. The top agricultural products of California a * Tree nuts - $3.1 billion * Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion * Vegetables - $2 billion * Dairy - $838 million It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." |
#8
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsinpublic workers)
On 3/18/2011 3:51 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Robert Green wrote: California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. Correct. The top agricultural products of California a * Tree nuts - $3.1 billion * Fruits& fruit products - $3 billion * Vegetables - $2 billion * Dairy - $838 million It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." That's kind of cheesy. snicker TDD |
#9
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
HeyBub wrote:
Robert Green wrote: California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. Correct. The top agricultural products of California a * Tree nuts - $3.1 billion * Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion * Vegetables - $2 billion * Dairy - $838 million It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." There you go with erronious data. The largest cash crop of California is pot. (13.8 B) http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/cashcrops.html So much for "the land of fruits and nuts". :-) Think maybe we ought to legalize and tax it? |
#10
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
Bob F wrote:
HeyBub wrote: Robert Green wrote: California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. Correct. The top agricultural products of California a * Tree nuts - $3.1 billion * Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion * Vegetables - $2 billion * Dairy - $838 million It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." There you go with erronious data. The largest cash crop of California is pot. (13.8 B) http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/cashcrops.html So much for "the land of fruits and nuts". :-) Think maybe we ought to legalize and tax it? You may be correct - I was referring ('though I didn't say so) to exports. As to "legalizing and taxing," I've often thought that would be a good idea for killing someone I didn't like. I suppose a modest fine would be equivalent to a tax... |
#11
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m... Robert Green wrote: California is to our food chain what the ocean is to Japan. I believe the revolts we're seeing in Arabia are more about the rising cost of food than politics. Correct. The top agricultural products of California a * Tree nuts - $3.1 billion * Fruits & fruit products - $3 billion * Vegetables - $2 billion * Dairy - $838 million It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." Why do I always feed you such wonderful straight lines? Seriously, though, I expect that we're due for a real ass-kicking disaster now that it's clear that the Feds and state and local governments haven't been saving for a rainy day, but in fact are spending as if there is no tomorrow. Maybe they're right. It's been 100 years since the great Frisco quake and we've been remarkably lucky in the recent round of earthquake roulette. 0 and 00 are still on the wheel, waiting. -- Bobby G. |
#12
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OT Unfunded liabilities and bad projections (was OT Wisconsin public workers)
I think that would be 0bama, and 00bama. This
administration has prevented domestic oil production, building power plants, and all kinds of things that make it possible for America to be prosperous. Our great disaster doesn't have to be a weather or earth based event. Might be a political strangling of the USA citizens. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Robert Green" wrote in message ... It is not for nothing that California is known as "The land of fruits and nuts." Why do I always feed you such wonderful straight lines? Seriously, though, I expect that we're due for a real ass-kicking disaster now that it's clear that the Feds and state and local governments haven't been saving for a rainy day, but in fact are spending as if there is no tomorrow. Maybe they're right. It's been 100 years since the great Frisco quake and we've been remarkably lucky in the recent round of earthquake roulette. 0 and 00 are still on the wheel, waiting. -- Bobby G. |
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