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#1
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
On Dec 12, 10:14*am, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: I have a 50 year-old furnace that is more efficient than some of the new ones after I modified the flame to use 1/2 the gas it originally used. Did you keep the same BTU output? ;-) I bet he did, because by reducing the flame his duty-cycle is probably longer (just like a modern furnace). Reducing the flame is as simple as turning the dial on the gas regulator in the furnace, or partially closing the gas shut-off valve on the line going to the furnace. Increase the efficiency even more ... Are you actually supporting his theory that he increased his efficiency ? By turning down the gas supply, his furnace is reducing it's BTU output and is also reducing the internal temperature of the heat exchanger. His fan blower is not changing the amount of CFM of air being pushed through the exchanger. * Heat exchanger efficiency (any heat exchanger) is not constant over a range of differential temperature (ie - the temperature difference between the incoming house-hold return air on one side of the heat exchanger, and the combustion air on the other side of the exchanger). For example, if the combustion-air temperature is 300F, and my incoming household air is 60F and 1000 CFM, I might get an efficiency of 80% at extracting the heat of that 300F combustion air and transfering it to my 60F incoming air, boosting it by 20F giving me 80F coming out of the furnace. On the other hand, if I turn the burners up so the combustion air is now 500F, my incoming household air is still 60F, it's still being moved through the furnace at 1000 CFM, and maybe it's coming out of the furnace at 90F. *But my efficiency has dropped to maybe 70%. This effect is probably more prounounced in the old-style furnaces with long horizontal burners where the combustion air really doesn't spend a lot of time in the furnace and has a low resistance path directly up the flue. And no, there is no way that a 50-year-old single-stage furnace can approach the 90%+ efficiency of a modern 2-stage unit, but that's got everything to do with a completely different burner and combustion galley arrangement, a longer combustion path, more surface area, thinner heat-exchanger walls, etc, and nothing to do with using an ECM motor or electronic pilot or a computer in the furnace. The point is that by reducing the BTU output of an old furnace, you are allowing the heat exchanger to operate more efficiently, and you are reducing the potential payback in getting a new furnace, and you are increasing perceived comfort by having a more constant heat-output from the furnace instead of short spikes of high heat followed by long periods of cool-down. I agree with the concept that a furnace will be more efficient if the temperature differential across the heat exchanger is less. How much it changes, ie if you screw around with an old 75% efficient furnace and turn the burners down, will it raise the efficiency from 75 to 76, or 75 to 80, however is an important part. You are assuming it's substantial. I'm not so sure. But the problem here aside from the obvious practical problems of doing it, is that you can't undo it on the fly. If you can turn the burners down so that it fires at 70% for greater efficiency, then one of two things must exist: 1 - The furnace will now be unable to heat the house to normal temp on the coldest days 2 - The furnace was oversized all those years and you now have downsized it permanently. Those modern two stage or variable burner furnaces can change the firing % on the fly. Using it at 100% when the intelligent thermostat knows it's needed, or firing it at say 70%, when it's a mild day. Another thing strikes me here. You keep pointing out how you can buy cheap HVAC online and you apparently believe you could do installs yourself or pay someone on the cheap to do part of it for you. With the current incentives, ie Fed 30% credit, nat gas utility credit, electric credit, state credit, I can get $3,000 off the cost of a new system. That means doing it your way, you could have a whole new high efficiency 95% furnace and AC system for $1000. Don't you think that's a good value proposition, with a good payback period? |
#2
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
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#3
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WHAT A FRIGGIN IDIOT! Was What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
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#4
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
On Dec 16, 8:50*pm, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: How much it changes, ie if you screw around with an old 75% efficient furnace and turn the burners down, will it raise the efficiency from 75 to 76, or 75 to 80, however is an important part. You are assuming it's substantial. *I'm not so sure. Based on where I've turned the regulator dial on my home furnace, and by judging the resulting flame height, I think I'm easily running at about 1/2 the full-throttle fuel flow. *My furnace is a lennox g8-120-1, manufactured October 1976. *Specs: 0 - 2500 ft altitude: 120,000 btu input 96,000 bonnet BTU orifice size 39 temp rise 70 - 100 1/4 hp motor (?) 3 1/4 inch pulley The furnace is about 22" wide, 28" deep, and about 4.5 ft high. *AC coils mounted in plenum above the furnace. I changed the pulley to 4" a few years ago to get more airflow (higher fan RPM). *Interesting that it says it's supposed to have 1/4 hp motor. The higher altitude spec says 1/3 hp, and higher static pressure (.75 vs .2 inches WC). *I am at a lower altitude (850 ft above sea level). We've had a few nights now where the over-night temp has gone down to 10F, daytime high 15F, and my furnace is still cycling (not 100% duty cycle). *I have the thermostat set for 71F (electronic thermostat, not mechanical, 2 degrees hysteresis). *I haven't started my humidifier (I don't always run it in the winter). * *Current indoor humidity is 20%.. Today's low and high temp is 13F / 22F. Bottom line is that it's amazing how much you can turn down the burners and still keep the house at the desired temperature, even given these low outside temps. Which unfortunately says nothing about whether the furnace is more efficient at the lower firing rate or by how much. However if you can fire it at that reduced rate and keep the house at the desired temp on the coldest days it does say the furnace was oversized to begin with. Any differences in furnace efficiency in heating at full firing rate versus 70% would be so small that you'd have to have instrumentation to figure it out. Note that HVAC and manufacturing folks claims for two stage "efficiency" are really based on: less cycling of the furnace, so less heat loss when it shuts down, etc more even heat distribution, due to the blower running longer, possibly resulting in feeling more comfortable at a slightly lower tem. But the problem here aside from the obvious practical problems of doing it, is that you can't undo it on the fly. ? Turning the control knob on the regulator is pretty-much on the fly. *If you mean that my thermostat can't do it, well I don't think that's necessary. *For the next 3 months I'm looking at a pretty constant outdoor climate in terms of temperature, so constant regulation of the furnace burner output is not necessary. So, essentially you have it throttled back in Fall and Spring and on full during winter. That's part of what a two stage furnace would do. Difference is that with a two stage furnace and thermostat, if you're out of the house in Oct and set it back to 60, it will fire at the higher rate. Even the 2 stage without a 2 stage thermostat will start at low, then move to high after an adjustable period, eg 5-12mins. If you can turn the burners down so that it fires at 70% for greater efficiency, then one of two things must exist: 1 - The furnace will now be unable to heat the house to normal temp on the coldest days 2 - The furnace was oversized all those years and you now have downsized it permanently. I don't know what's normal for a 2000 sq foot (including basement) 2-story house, brick sided first floor, aluminum sided second story (no insulation under the siding) in terms of furnace BTU. *My climate zone is basically Detroit / Cleveland / Buffalo / Toronto. I think that the HVAC industry was probably targeting a 25% furnace duty cycle back in the mid-1970's, so a 120k BTU furnace was spec'd back then for a house like this. 25% cycles when? on the coldest days? From all you've said, sounds like it's oversized. Those modern two stage or variable burner furnaces can change the firing % on the fly. I really don't think that a fully controllable / variable burner is necessary or is cost efficient for the average home. *Two stage - maybe. *Two stage aftermarket electronic thermostats are insanely priced compared to single stage. *I bought a 2-stage programmable thermostat for a leased office about 10 years ago (to replace a mechanical thermostat) and I think it cost $300 at the time, compared to $50 - $70 for a single-stage "home" version. I can buy a top of the line Honeywell VisionPro 2 stage Tstat for $100-125. Or a cheaper prgrammable one for $60. The delta for getting two stages on a good thermostat is maybe $25 Another thing strikes me here. * You keep pointing out how you can buy cheap HVAC online and you apparently believe you could do installs yourself or pay someone on the cheap to do part of it for you. I would install it myself, because I belong to the school of "it's not done right unless you do it yourself", and there's a lot of stuff I do for myself (car restoration, welding, plumbing, wood-working, concrete work, etc). With the current incentives, ie Fed 30% credit, nat gas utility credit, electric credit, state credit, I can get $3,000 off the cost of a new system. * That means doing it your way, you could have a whole new high efficiency 95% furnace and AC system for $1000. A new furnace might cost me $1500 max to buy, a 30% rebate of that is max $450. Are there no gas company or state rebates/credits available? Here in NJ there are and they would chop another $600 off that price. From what I've seen posted here, there frequently are similar credits available in other states. That could make the cost of that new furnace $450. It's not the money that would motivate me one way or another. *What would really cut my energy bills is putting a 2" layer foam-board insulation around my second-story and getting new windows. *I'll let everyone else pay through the nose for new furnaces so that they will use less natural gas resulting in a continued depression for natural gas prices which will mean that people with inefficient furnaces will continue to pay less anyways. Hard to see how you would not recover the cost in a reasonable time of getting a furnace that is: A - Sized correctly B - 95% efficient compared to your current whatever, say 75% Using your own numbers, ie $1500 cost, Fed Tax credit, no other rebates, it's $1050. IF you only cut your fuel costs by $200 a year, that's a fast payback. With any other rebates/credits it could be down to a few years. Don't you think that's a good value proposition, with a good payback period? I've got several other home-projects in mind for the next few years. When I'm ready to alter my air-handling system to include the concepts I've talked about here, that's when I'll take a good look at my furnace and decide if I'll buy a new one (I probably will). *But I'll still install it myself, and if that means I'll have to buy it on the internet because the local hvac dealers won't sell it to me unless they install it, then so be it. |
#5
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
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#6
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
On Dec 17, 8:57*am, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: Bottom line is that it's amazing how much you can turn down the burners and still keep the house at the desired temperature, even given these low outside temps. Which unfortunately says nothing about whether the furnace is more efficient at the lower firing rate or by how much. * Given a lower BTU output and a slower flame speed (slower combustion air induction speed) I am promoting more heat residency time inside the heat exchanger galley and a lower flue stack temperature. *My blower fan is pushing the same CFM through the exchanger, so when taken together my heat extraction efficiency is going up. *By how much, I don't know. However if you can fire it at that reduced rate and keep the house at the desired temp on the coldest days it does say the furnace was oversized to begin with. Isin't it common knowledge that oversized furnaces were normal a few decades ago? For the next 3 months I'm looking at a pretty constant outdoor climate in terms of temperature, so constant regulation of the furnace burner output is not necessary. So, essentially you have it throttled back in Fall and Spring and on full during winter. Actually, it's throttled back right now, to at least half of full flow. That's my point - even given my current outdoor climate (10 to 15f min and 20 to 25f max outdoor temp) I'm getting enough BTU's to keep the house at 71 - 72F all day and all night. *And even then, my furnace is not running at 100% duty cycle. *Maybe only 65 - 75%. To be honest, the burner setting I have now is the lowest that gives me a consistent and even flame pattern and acceptible ignition roll-out. * Fall and spring don't last long enough to warrant their own lower burner-output setting, which as I just mentioned I probably couldn't achieve anyways. 25% cycles when? *on the coldest days? Yup. From all you've said, sounds like it's oversized. Tell me what a 120,000 BTU input, 96,000 btu bonnet furnace is designed for. *What size house. One of the experts here would probably be better at guessing that number. But that's all it would be without doing a proper load calculation. It depends on a lot more than just size, ie how well the house is insulated, number of windows, location, etc. However, none of the contractors have actually done that. The most one of them did was to measure the house sq ft. I'm not too concerned with that, because I have the experience with the current furnace, which IMO is an even better starting point. I can tell you that for my house here in coastal NJ, near NYC, I'm getting quotes of either 100K or 120K input, 95% efficiency, depending on the contractor. My own opinion, based on experience with the current furnace, is that 100K is the right size. For example, it's 18F outside and this morning, when recovering from overnight setback from 60 back to 70, it's going up about 5.5F per hour. Also in 16 years, even on the coldest days, it never is close to running all the time. Current is 150K, 26 years old, so guessing it's maybe 77% efficient at this point, when new it was probably 80%. Tell me where such a furnace ranks today in terms of size (small, medium, large, extra-large, etc). The gas furnaces I've looked at from various manufacturers product lines all top out at 105K to 120K, at least in the 95% efficiency series. Don't know about the 80%, etc. Two reasons for that. First, is obviously with higher eff, you get more heat out. Second is today for a house the size of mine they would put in two smaller HVAC system, one up, one down, which does a better job, allows more flexibility, etc. A new furnace might cost me $1500 max to buy, a 30% rebate of that is max $450. Are there no gas company or state rebates/credits available? Here in NJ there are and they would chop another $600 off that price. From what I've seen posted here, there frequently are similar credits available in other states. *That could make the cost of that new furnace $450. First thing, I'm in Ontario (Canada). Second thing, in order to get gov't rebates, you need to contract for a home efficienty test by an acredited tester who will evaluate your current situation (air leakage, current furnace type and efficiency, maybe a few other things) and he will do it again when your new furnace is installed, and then he signs off on the tests and then the gov't will send you money. *I don't know if it's "federal" or "state" money (or both). *I also don't know if the local gas utility will kick in any of their own money. Part of the rebate here, $900 from the state, requires a home eff test too, but it's free. One of my co-workers had this done, so I'll ask him how much of a kick-back he's supposed to get. You've also got to factor in rebates for the heating vs the cooling components as well. *I wouldn't be interested in replacing my A/C system. Yes, you may get them for one part, but not the other, or both, depending on what rebates are available and the particular system. One problem I was not aware of is that on large AC, ie 5 tons, it's apparently harder to make them high eff, with 14.5 SEER or similar being more typical, which can make that part harder to qualify for. Also, I think here in NJ, we probably have some of the best rebates. As I said, I can get $1200 rebated locally and another 30% Fed tax credit. For me, that makes it a very good deal. |
#7
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
Rebate: When a company over charges you, and then gives you part of
your money back. See also "Tax Refund". -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... Also, I think here in NJ, we probably have some of the best rebates. As I said, I can get $1200 rebated locally and another 30% Fed tax credit. For me, that makes it a very good deal. |
#8
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What Is a Furnace Draft Inducer Blower? I'll tell you what itis ...
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 17:52:17 -0500, ftwhd wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 09:02:59 -0800 (PST), wrote: I agree with the concept that a furnace will be more efficient if the temperature differential across the heat exchanger is less. Are you serious? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o --Vic |
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