I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

On Dec 5, 7:32*am, ls02 wrote:
I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

You could get by...most likely. But I doubt anyone would recommend it!

"ls02" wrote in message
...
I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

First, I'd say that the existing 150 amp service you have, was a mistake.
There is such an insignificant price difference between a 150 and 200 amp
service, there shouldn't even be a 150 amp. Having said that, both my dad
and I have 150 amp services at our houses, and we're both licensed
electrical contractors. NO, we didn't install them, they came with our
houses. However, in both our situations, the 150 amp is perfectly adequate
for the size of the houses and our load demands. Eventually, I will replace
mine out of sheer embarrassment.

In your situation, the 150 is probably adequate as well. Those heavy loads,
the A\C and steam generators, and sauna are cycling on and off, and except
for the A\C are used for only short periods of time. There certainly is no
reason to go for the 200 at this time. I would connect all the new stuff to
the existing service, and only replace it if you find the need.

On Dec 5, 9:10*am, "RBM" wrote:
"ls02" wrote in message

...





I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

First, I'd say that the existing 150 amp service you have, was a mistake.
There is such an insignificant price difference between a 150 and 200 amp
service, there shouldn't even be a 150 amp. Having said that, both my dad
and I have 150 amp services at our houses, and we're both licensed
electrical contractors. NO, we didn't install them, they came with our
houses. However, in both our situations, the 150 amp is perfectly adequate
for the size of the houses and our load demands. Eventually, I will replace
mine out of sheer embarrassment.

In your situation, the 150 is probably adequate as well. Those heavy loads,
the A\C and steam generators, and sauna *are cycling on and off, and except
for the A\C are used for only short periods of time. There certainly is no
reason to go for the 200 at this time. I would connect all the new stuff to
the existing service, and only replace it if you find the need.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for your response. When I bought the house I didn't have
enough experience and knowledge to push for 200 A upgrade. My 60+ year
old house originally had 100 A service so I upgraded to 150 A
following the HVAC installer advice.

The problem is that upgrading main service is the only part of wiring
I cannot do myself. This makes me hire an electrician and they want
close to $1000 to upgrade it just for labor plus it costs me around
$500 for all materials. If I could upgrade service myself I would
definitely do it. I replaced and upgraded all other wiring in my house
myself.

"ls02" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:10 am, "RBM" wrote:
"ls02" wrote in message

...





I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

First, I'd say that the existing 150 amp service you have, was a mistake.
There is such an insignificant price difference between a 150 and 200 amp
service, there shouldn't even be a 150 amp. Having said that, both my dad
and I have 150 amp services at our houses, and we're both licensed
electrical contractors. NO, we didn't install them, they came with our
houses. However, in both our situations, the 150 amp is perfectly adequate
for the size of the houses and our load demands. Eventually, I will
replace
mine out of sheer embarrassment.

In your situation, the 150 is probably adequate as well. Those heavy
loads,
the A\C and steam generators, and sauna are cycling on and off, and except
for the A\C are used for only short periods of time. There certainly is no
reason to go for the 200 at this time. I would connect all the new stuff
to
the existing service, and only replace it if you find the need.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for your response. When I bought the house I didn't have
enough experience and knowledge to push for 200 A upgrade. My 60+ year
old house originally had 100 A service so I upgraded to 150 A
following the HVAC installer advice.

The problem is that upgrading main service is the only part of wiring
I cannot do myself. This makes me hire an electrician and they want
close to $1000 to upgrade it just for labor plus it costs me around
$500 for all materials. If I could upgrade service myself I would
definitely do it. I replaced and upgraded all other wiring in my house
myself.

In my area of downstate NY, 200 amp services are going for $2000-$2500. It's
all about the bureaucracy

"ls02" wrote in message
I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
...

In general, if you are not tripping your main breaker, then you don't
need more capacity, but...

If you need to replace the main panel, then I would suggest upgrading
to 200 amps. The reason being that electric vehicles are on the way.
These can draw upwards of 70 amps while recharging.

If you don't need to replace the main panel for the room addition,
then no reason to upgrade now. You could always do that later if
necessary.

Also another way to look at it. Inflation. Cheaper to do things now
than 10 years from now... But also factor in interest if you need to
borrow money to do this. Might be less expensive to do it later at a
higher cost when you can pay cash.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
"ls02" wrote in message
I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
...

In general, if you are not tripping your main breaker, then you don't need
more capacity, but...

If you need to replace the main panel, then I would suggest upgrading to
200 amps. The reason being that electric vehicles are on the way. These
can draw upwards of 70 amps while recharging.

If you don't need to replace the main panel for the room addition, then no
reason to upgrade now. You could always do that later if necessary.

Also another way to look at it. Inflation. Cheaper to do things now than
10 years from now... But also factor in interest if you need to borrow
money to do this. Might be less expensive to do it later at a higher cost
when you can pay cash.


Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate these
technological wonders.

From what you've said, a homeowner's permit
would be reasonable. Whenever.

On Dec 5, 9:33*am, "RBM" wrote:
In my area of downstate NY, 200 amp services are going for $2000-$2500. It's
all about the bureaucracy

"Michael B" wrote in message
...
From what you've said, a homeowner's permit
would be reasonable. Whenever.

On Dec 5, 9:33 am, "RBM" wrote:
In my area of downstate NY, 200 amp services are going for $2000-$2500.
It's
all about the bureaucracy


What is a homeowners permit?

On Dec 5, 9:26*am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

"RBM" wrote
Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one
I would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with
it's revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will
be just tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be
backlogged for the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to
accommodate these technological wonders.


Funny today, maybe no so ten years from now. I read that California is
installing thousands of charging stations now. That is keeping some
electricians busy.

I'd put one in if I was buying a Tesla. You won't catch me driving a Volt
even though the payback is a mere 18 years or so.

On Dec 5, 7:32*am, ls02 wrote:
I am building an addition to my house and thought of upgrading my 150
A service and panel to 200 A. However after weighing the cost (upward
of $1500 in my area) and benefit I started having second thoughts. My
150 A service and panel are relatively new, 8 years old.

The house after addition is completed will be around 3500 sf plus
finished basement.

I have gas oven, gas furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer in my
house. I have a workshop with 50 A sub panel, I will have second
central A/C installed, the sauna with heater and potentially steam
shower. Both central A/C use 40 A breakers @ 220V (the second , sauna
heater will draw max 25A @ 220 V and the steam generator will draw 35
A @ 220 V. Besides this I do not have anything special from electric
load perspective.

Is 150 A service and panel enough to service my load or I really need
200 A upgrade?

In my humble experience, a 200amp panel has way more capacity than you
will ever use. Save the money.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote
Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one I would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out
with it's revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people
will be just tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be
backlogged for the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to
accommodate these technological wonders.


Funny today, maybe no so ten years from now. I read that California is
installing thousands of charging stations now. That is keeping some
electricians busy.

I'd put one in if I was buying a Tesla. You won't catch me driving a
Volt even though the payback is a mere 18 years or so.

I think you hit the nail on the head. California is just putting more nails
in their financial coffin, but for those of us living in the real world, the
volt is a POS, and we can't afford the Tesla. I don't think I'll have to
worry about installing piles of electric car outlets for a while yet

"Bob Villa" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!


Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon. And if I had a need for a V-8, I
would have a V-8

To me, the current supply sounds more than adequate. Details matter,
though.

It makes a huge difference how many people live in the house. Is it
3000 square feet and 2 people, or 3000 square feet and 20 people?
Do you expect to run the A/C at full blast and the sauna at the same
time? Look at your monthly electric bills for usage, then consider
what units are consuming the electricity, and on what schedule. Do
you have consistent periods of peak demand? Are those peaks big or
small? In other words, is your usage spread over the day or bursty?

Una

On Dec 5, 11:09*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote
Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one I would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out
with it's revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people
will be just tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be
backlogged for the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to
accommodate these technological wonders.

Funny today, maybe no so ten years from now. *I read that California is
installing thousands of charging stations now. *That is keeping some
electricians busy.

I'd put one in if I was buying a Tesla. * You won't catch me driving a
Volt even though the payback is a mere 18 years or so.

I think you hit the nail on the head. California is just putting more nails
in their financial coffin, but for those of us living in the real world, the
volt is a POS, and we can't afford the Tesla. I don't think I'll have to
worry about installing piles of electric car outlets for a while yet



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It would seem that if and when electric cars become feasible and cost
effective
for many people that you could upgrade your electric service at that
time. I
don't see why anyone would be laying out money today to go from a 150A
service to 200A service on the theory that electric cars are going to
become
mainstream. No one knows exactly how the future of car technology
is going
to play out. That Chevy Volt would have to sell for under $20K to
be in line with
similar compact cars. Then you still have the 40 mile electric
range, but with
the backup gas engine it could be suitable for commutes to the train
or bus, short
hops around town, etc.

For the OP, it would seem the simplest thing to do would be to try the
existing
service with the addition and see if it works out OK. If the main
breaker starts
tripping, then he knows he needs a larger service.

On Dec 5, 11:27*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Bob Villa" wrote in message

...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon. *And if I had a need for a V-8, I
would have a V-8

well electric cars are coming and at home resale time lack of capacity
could discourage buyers. its not just the volt or the telsa, its the
nissan leaf and others.theres a plug in version of the prius coming
too.

electricity is more green than other energy sources, since its made in
bulk and that makes scrubbing its exhaust easier. let alone solar
panels and windmills..........

if your room addition needs a sub panel i would upgrade to 200 amps
now, the cost of electrical upgrade is a tiny part of a big home
addition......

wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 11:09 am, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote
Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade
an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one I would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out
with it's revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge,
people
will be just tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will
be
backlogged for the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service
to
accommodate these technological wonders.

Funny today, maybe no so ten years from now. I read that California is
installing thousands of charging stations now. That is keeping some
electricians busy.

I'd put one in if I was buying a Tesla. You won't catch me driving a
Volt even though the payback is a mere 18 years or so.

I think you hit the nail on the head. California is just putting more
nails
in their financial coffin, but for those of us living in the real world,
the
volt is a POS, and we can't afford the Tesla. I don't think I'll have to
worry about installing piles of electric car outlets for a while yet



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It would seem that if and when electric cars become feasible and cost
effective
for many people that you could upgrade your electric service at that
time. I
don't see why anyone would be laying out money today to go from a 150A
service to 200A service on the theory that electric cars are going to
become
mainstream. No one knows exactly how the future of car technology
is going
to play out. That Chevy Volt would have to sell for under $20K to
be in line with
similar compact cars. Then you still have the 40 mile electric
range, but with
the backup gas engine it could be suitable for commutes to the train
or bus, short
hops around town, etc.

For the OP, it would seem the simplest thing to do would be to try the
existing
service with the addition and see if it works out OK. If the main
breaker starts
tripping, then he knows he needs a larger service.

I agree. The only thing that's wrong with the electric car, is the only
thing that has always been wrong with it. The Battery. With all the devices
using batteries today, I don't think some new, totally revolutionary battery
technology is just going to sneak up on us. And if it did, I, and everyone
else would be happy as clams... and then we wouldn't have enough electricity
generation to feed them.

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be just
tripping over each other to buy one.

For the record, reprinted without permission from Chevy:

" Volt is an electric car that uses gas to create its own electricity.
Plug it in, let it charge overnight, and it's ready to run on a pure
electric charge for up to 40 miles - gas and emissions free. After that,
Volt keeps going, even if you can't plug it in. Volt uses a
range-extending gas generator that produces enough energy to power it
for hundreds of miles on a single tank of gas."

A lot of scoffing done on a.h.r. about alternative energy, but it's
coming, and I believe it will help fuel (pun intended) our economic
recovery. Are the technologies mature and perfected? Hell no. Neither
was the Wright Flyer. I respect and appreciate the efforts of the
pioneers.

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:27:55 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


"Bob Villa" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!


Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon.


I said the same thing about cell phones and hybrids.
Only got a cell phone a few years ago, when they got cheap to buy and
use.
Hybrids are about 3% of new cars sales now.
The same buyers will want the plug-in models.
I expect that will grow as they get cheaper to buy, especially plug-in
hybrids like the Volt.
Ford will also be a plug-in hybrid player next year, and Toyota is
going to start producing a plug-in Prius.
Though I'll probably be dead before they get in my car price range,
plug-ins will be a bigger chunk of the car market as time goes by.
There are already gov tax credits around for charging stations.

With free gov money people go all out to get it.
Just like the fat-ass jokers I used to work with would go to bars to
wolf down free appetizers. They knew all the "free food" schedules.
Never understood eating lousy food just because it was free.
Maybe I'm anti-social? Nah, just know good food from junk.

Though some people pooh-pooh the idea of the 40 mile electric range of
the Volt, I think GM has a winner with the concept - if it's not a
dog otherwise.
If as advertised, the daily 40 miles would serve 95% of our driving
needs just plugging into 110v.
And the other 5% would have the IC engine running.
That's 100%.
Our commute is 24 miles round trip daily.
It could be a winner with twice the commute.
There are millions of folks with the same car needs as us.

Only thing that will hamper Volt sales is continued high price or if
it's a maintenance hog. Time will tell.

--Vic







..

On Dec 5, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Bob Villa" wrote in message

...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon. *And if I had a need for a V-8, I
would have a V-8

That would be "than"...signifies "degree" or "comparison". JFYI

On 12/5/2010 10:46 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not one I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!


I'd like to own a RWD V-8 again before they outlaw them....
Sadly, other than maybe in a used beater pickup (which I don't have
anyplace to park, and can't justify the dollars for the 3 times a year I
NEED a pickup), they are already out of my price range. :^(

Probably best that I ain't rich. Gas prices are doing the 3 steps
forward, 2 steps back routine around here for the last few months, and
just passed north of 3 bucks a gallon again. I hope we don't get north
of 4 bucks a gallon again anytime soon, but I am not optimistic.

--
aem sends...

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:27:55 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


"Bob Villa" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade
an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with
it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!


Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement
in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon.


I said the same thing about cell phones and hybrids.
Only got a cell phone a few years ago, when they got cheap to buy and
use.
Hybrids are about 3% of new cars sales now.
The same buyers will want the plug-in models.
I expect that will grow as they get cheaper to buy, especially plug-in
hybrids like the Volt.
Ford will also be a plug-in hybrid player next year, and Toyota is
going to start producing a plug-in Prius.
Though I'll probably be dead before they get in my car price range,
plug-ins will be a bigger chunk of the car market as time goes by.
There are already gov tax credits around for charging stations.

With free gov money people go all out to get it.
Just like the fat-ass jokers I used to work with would go to bars to
wolf down free appetizers. They knew all the "free food" schedules.
Never understood eating lousy food just because it was free.
Maybe I'm anti-social? Nah, just know good food from junk.

Though some people pooh-pooh the idea of the 40 mile electric range of
the Volt, I think GM has a winner with the concept - if it's not a
dog otherwise.
If as advertised, the daily 40 miles would serve 95% of our driving
needs just plugging into 110v.
And the other 5% would have the IC engine running.
That's 100%.
Our commute is 24 miles round trip daily.
It could be a winner with twice the commute.
There are millions of folks with the same car needs as us.

Only thing that will hamper Volt sales is continued high price or if
it's a maintenance hog. Time will tell.

--Vic

I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day,
and the car could be built,sold, and maintained, and didn't need to be
subsidized, and the car company could make a profit, at least some
reasonable segment of the
public would buy it. That currently isn't the case. I also think that if GM
believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230



.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:31:51 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

"Michael B" wrote in message
...
From what you've said, a homeowner's permit
would be reasonable. Whenever.

On Dec 5, 9:33 am, "RBM" wrote:
In my area of downstate NY, 200 amp services are going for $2000-$2500.
It's
all about the bureaucracy


What is a homeowners permit?


I assume he means "owner/builder" permit that allows the homeowner to
pull a permit and do the work. YMMV on whether you can actually do
this. In Florida you can.


That's not legal in my county, in fact I'm pretty sure there is a jail term
for doing that, although the jail term may only be for doing electrical work
in someone else's house. I could look at the laws, but they're really scary.
I can't believe that half the stuff in them is constitutional. Hard to
believe that you can't legally work in your own house.







The real break point would be to ask the utility what the rating is on
their drop from the pole. If it is a triplex, I bet they say 200a,
even though it is ~2ga aluminum. At that point it is replacing the SE
from the panel to the service point and swapping out the panelboard if
you stay in the same brand/model class. I think Cuttler Hammer even
makes panelboards that fit in SqD cans. 150 and 200 usually use the
same can. The advantage of using the same brand is you keep your old
breakers. You are just replacing the bus bars and main breaker.
He may also be replacing the ground electrode conductor.

It is more complicated if he wants to increase the breaker count. You
need a new enclosure and you will be rewiring everything.

BTW it might be worthwhile reading the panel label. Some 150s may have
200a busses but I bet the 200 breaker is about the same as a
panelboard or maybe even the whole load center.

"Bob Villa" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 10:27 am, "RBM" wrote:
"Bob Villa" wrote in message

...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade
an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with
it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement
in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon. And if I had a need for a V-8, I
would have a V-8

That would be "than"...signifies "degree" or "comparison". JFYI

LOL, you should see what it looked like before I hit the spell check

On Dec 5, 10:52*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message

...



On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:27:55 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

"Bob Villa" wrote in message
....
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade
an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with
it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement
in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all be
running out and buying them anytime soon.

I said the same thing about cell phones and hybrids.
Only got a cell phone a few years ago, when they got cheap to buy and
use.
Hybrids are about 3% of new cars sales now.
The same buyers will want the plug-in models.
I expect that will grow as they get cheaper to buy, especially plug-in
hybrids like the Volt.
Ford will also be a plug-in hybrid player next year, and Toyota is
going to start producing a plug-in Prius.
Though I'll probably be dead before they get in my car price range,
plug-ins will be a bigger chunk of the car market as time goes by.
There are already gov tax credits around for charging stations.

With free gov money people go all out to get it.
Just like the fat-ass jokers I used to work with would go to bars to
wolf down free appetizers. *They knew all the "free food" schedules.
Never understood eating lousy food just because it was free.
Maybe I'm anti-social? *Nah, just know good food from junk.

Though some people pooh-pooh the idea of the 40 mile electric range of
the Volt, I think GM has a winner with the concept *- if it's not a
dog otherwise.
If as advertised, the daily 40 miles would serve 95% of our driving
needs just plugging into 110v.
And the other 5% would have the IC engine running.
That's 100%.
Our commute is 24 miles round trip daily.
It could be a winner with twice the commute.
There are millions of folks with the same car needs as us.

Only thing that will hamper Volt sales is continued high price or if
it's a maintenance hog. *Time will tell.

--Vic

I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day,
and the car could be built,sold, and *maintained, and didn't need to be
subsidized, and the car company could make a profit, at least some
reasonable segment of the

public would buy it. That currently isn't the case. I also think that if GM
believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230





.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

With the OP's question, I got curious on what is actually involved in
upgrading from 150 to 200A. I looked at my bmain breaker and it had a
200 main breaker inside. Is the upgrade just changing the main
breaker or doe the entire panel uually have to be upgraded?

the electriv vehicle comments, I have a 5.9L v-8 in a 1500 Dodge
Ram to haul loads of construction and landscaping material. I just
can't imagine a electric vehicle that will handle that unless I haul
miles of extension cables.

Rob

On Dec 5, 11:37*am, (Una) wrote:
To me, the current supply sounds more than adequate. *Details matter,
though.

It makes a huge difference how many people live in the house. *Is it
3000 square feet and 2 people, or 3000 square feet and 20 people?
Do you expect to run the A/C at full blast and the sauna at the same
time? *Look at your monthly electric bills for usage, then consider
what units are consuming the electricity, and on what schedule. *Do
you have consistent periods of peak demand? *Are those peaks big or
small? *In other words, is your usage spread over the day or bursty?

* * * * Una

Five people live in house: two adults and three kids. New A/C will air
condition new addition plus part of the existing house. I cannot speak
of peak demand. I also at least in theory should consider that both A/
C and the sauna or steam generator may run together at a time. One
thing I can speak for su although workshop sub-panel is rated for
50 A the only person who uses it is me and I run max two tools at a
time rarely exeeding 20 A together.

if your room addition needs a sub panel i would upgrade to 200 amps
now, the cost of electrical upgrade is a tiny part of a big home
addition......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not for my budget. I am doing most of the work myself and spending ~
$1500 on something I may not need makes a big diference for me.

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:52:26 -0500, "RBM" wrote:




I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day, and the car could be built,sold,
and maintained, and didn't need to be subsidized, and the car company could make a profit,
at least some reasonable segment of the public would buy it. That currently isn't the case.
I also think that if GM believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230

1. You don't need 95% market share of anything to succeed.
2. Yes, the product has to be solid.
3. Yes, the Volt is being subsidized, as was the Toyota Prius and all
the high efficiency furnaces they're talking about in another thread.
4. GM is making a profit.
5. The EPA determines MPG figures, not GM. And it's not 230 MPG.

So you're batting .400.
In baseball they'd call you Ted Williams and you'd be a hero.
With most work it just gets your ass fired.

--Vic

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:24:21 -0800 (PST), rlz wrote:



the electriv vehicle comments, I have a 5.9L v-8 in a 1500 Dodge
Ram to haul loads of construction and landscaping material. I just
can't imagine a electric vehicle that will handle that unless I haul
miles of extension cables.


Good for you. I can't imagine owning your Ram.
Just shows neither of us have any imagination.
BTW, I hauled tons of material in my Ford pickup with a 352..
Later I hauled even more tons of material in a Chevy Corsica with a
little 2.2.
In the trunk, back seat and tied to a roof rack.
No good for furniture and appliances though.
Those I usually got with free delivery or paid 50 bucks.
Nobody says you have to buy an electric vehicle and nobody can tell me
to buy a Ram.
Different strokes.
I love America!
BTW, here's something to get your imagination going.
Probably pie in the sky but who knows?
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/02/gm-con...-pickup-truck/

--Vic

On Dec 5, 1:39*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:52:26 -0500, "RBM" wrote:
I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day, and the car could be built,sold,
and *maintained, and didn't need to be subsidized, and the car company could make a profit,
at least some *reasonable segment of the public would buy it. That currently isn't the case.
I also think that if GM believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230

1. *You don't need 95% market share of anything to succeed.
2. *Yes, the product has to be solid.
3. *Yes, the Volt is being subsidized, as was the Toyota Prius and all
the high efficiency furnaces they're talking about in another thread.
4. *GM is making a profit.
5. *The EPA determines MPG figures, not GM. *And it's not 230 MPG.

So you're batting .400.
In baseball they'd call you Ted Williams and you'd be a hero.
With most work it just gets your ass fired.

--Vic

anything that cuts our importing of crude oil, espically from the mid
east is a good thing.....

our mucking about in those countries business over oil is largely why
terrorism exists.....

just look at wiki leaks, and what our country has been up to

when gasoline gets over 4 bucks what remains of our economy will
collapse.

high oil prices had a big part in our collapse

"rlz" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 10:52 am, "RBM" wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message

...



On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:27:55 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

"Bob Villa" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:26 am, "RBM" wrote:

Wow, that's pretty funny. Of all the reasons one might find to upgrade
an
electric service, "electric vehicles are on the way", is certainly not
one
I
would have thought of. I suppose with the new "Volt" coming out with
it's
revolutionary 40 miles (best case scenario) on a charge, people will
be
just
tripping over each other to buy one. We electricians will be
backlogged
for
the next ten years trying to upgrade everyone's service to accommodate
these
technological wonders.

What a "short sighted" statement...you must still have a V-8 in your
machine?!

Relatively speaking, the cork in a wine bottle has seen more improvement
in
the last 100 years, then the electric car. No, I don't think we'll all
be
running out and buying them anytime soon.

I said the same thing about cell phones and hybrids.
Only got a cell phone a few years ago, when they got cheap to buy and
use.
Hybrids are about 3% of new cars sales now.
The same buyers will want the plug-in models.
I expect that will grow as they get cheaper to buy, especially plug-in
hybrids like the Volt.
Ford will also be a plug-in hybrid player next year, and Toyota is
going to start producing a plug-in Prius.
Though I'll probably be dead before they get in my car price range,
plug-ins will be a bigger chunk of the car market as time goes by.
There are already gov tax credits around for charging stations.

With free gov money people go all out to get it.
Just like the fat-ass jokers I used to work with would go to bars to
wolf down free appetizers. They knew all the "free food" schedules.
Never understood eating lousy food just because it was free.
Maybe I'm anti-social? Nah, just know good food from junk.

Though some people pooh-pooh the idea of the 40 mile electric range of
the Volt, I think GM has a winner with the concept - if it's not a
dog otherwise.
If as advertised, the daily 40 miles would serve 95% of our driving
needs just plugging into 110v.
And the other 5% would have the IC engine running.
That's 100%.
Our commute is 24 miles round trip daily.
It could be a winner with twice the commute.
There are millions of folks with the same car needs as us.

Only thing that will hamper Volt sales is continued high price or if
it's a maintenance hog. Time will tell.

--Vic

I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day,
and the car could be built,sold, and maintained, and didn't need to be
subsidized, and the car company could make a profit, at least some
reasonable segment of the

public would buy it. That currently isn't the case. I also think that if
GM
believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230





.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

With the OP's question, I got curious on what is actually involved in
upgrading from 150 to 200A. I looked at my bmain breaker and it had a
200 main breaker inside. Is the upgrade just changing the main
breaker or doe the entire panel uually have to be upgraded?

To upgrade the service , it requires replacing the panel, cable feeding the
panel from the utility company connection, and replacing the grounding
system

the electriv vehicle comments, I have a 5.9L v-8 in a 1500 Dodge
Ram to haul loads of construction and landscaping material. I just
can't imagine a electric vehicle that will handle that unless I haul
miles of extension cables.

Rob

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 10:24:21 -0800 (PST), rlz wrote:



the electriv vehicle comments, I have a 5.9L v-8 in a 1500 Dodge
Ram to haul loads of construction and landscaping material. I just
can't imagine a electric vehicle that will handle that unless I haul
miles of extension cables.


Good for you. I can't imagine owning your Ram.
Just shows neither of us have any imagination.
BTW, I hauled tons of material in my Ford pickup with a 352..
Later I hauled even more tons of material in a Chevy Corsica with a
little 2.2.
In the trunk, back seat and tied to a roof rack.
No good for furniture and appliances though.
Those I usually got with free delivery or paid 50 bucks.
Nobody says you have to buy an electric vehicle and nobody can tell me
to buy a Ram.
Different strokes.
I love America!
BTW, here's something to get your imagination going.
Probably pie in the sky but who knows?
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/02/gm-con...-pickup-truck/

--Vic

and I started my electrical contracting business in a Ford Pinto. Now I
use a 2010 Sprinter. I'd love to get the Pinto's milage out of the
Sprinter, and I'd buy an electric Sprinter in a heartbeat, if it was
affordable and did what I need a vehicle to do. I agree, "different
strokes", and I never want that to change

On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 14:22:44 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 08:46:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

well electric cars are coming and at home resale time lack of capacity
could discourage buyers. its not just the volt or the telsa, its the
nissan leaf and others.theres a plug in version of the prius coming
too.

I was pretty serious about an electric car since I thought I was the
perfect candidate. I don't drive far but I drive everyday. I also have
a truck and my wife has a "trip car". Unfortunately I still could not
get the numbers to work out, even for a $10k kit conversion on my old
Honda. The biggest unrecognized problem is replacing the batteries
every 3-4 years ($1300-$1500). I was looking at a 10-12 year payback
and not really getting much better in the out years, if the power was
free. I didn't drive far enough.
If you start with $10k, add 2 sets of batteries over 10 years and
assume $3 gas against a car that gets 28 MPG (my Honda) your kit and
batteries will buy gas for 33 miles a day, 365 days a year for 10
years. I will still get an electric bill on top of that. If you say 10
kwh (about 60% of 14 golf cart batteries) that is about $1.40 a day
assuming no losses in the charger and 100% transfer of power in the
car.
I suppose the goldilocks situation is a commuter who has a 15-20 mile
commute and does not need heat or A/C. Nobody has said what the range
is with the heater on or running an A/C.

None of your battery costs apply to cars like the Prius or Volt.
The Volt battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles.
Prius is similar.
Battery failures on the Prius is not related to the golf cart
"conversion" batteries you are talking about.
Same will hold true of the Volt.
Here's something about hybrid failure rates.
http://www.hybridcars.com/components...y-failure.html
I was waiting for the Prius dead battery disaster to hit the fan.
Still hasn't happened.
For now "bleeding-edge" folks with bucks will hopefully get the
electric/electric plug-in hybrid car industry in motion.
Along with the usual government suspects.
This should lower costs as economy of scale begin to do their work.
Lower car cost and lower battery cost.
But what will put it over the top is +$5.00 a gallon gasoline.
And that is coming sure as the sun will rise and set.
The numbnuts running the show should get their butts in gear ramping
up nuke power, which is the only way to make electric work well.


--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:52:26 -0500, "RBM" wrote:




I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day,
and the car could be built,sold,
and maintained, and didn't need to be subsidized, and the car company
could make a profit,
at least some reasonable segment of the public would buy it. That
currently isn't the case.
I also think that if GM believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't
have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230

1. You don't need 95% market share of anything to succeed.
2. Yes, the product has to be solid.
3. Yes, the Volt is being subsidized, as was the Toyota Prius and all
the high efficiency furnaces they're talking about in another thread.
4. GM is making a profit.
5. The EPA determines MPG figures, not GM. And it's not 230 MPG.

So you're batting .400.
In baseball they'd call you Ted Williams and you'd be a hero.
With most work it just gets your ass fired.

--Vic

If Toyota only made the Prius, they'd be out of business
It's way too early to know if GM is really making a profit.
The EPA hasn't yet figured out how they're going to figure MPG's for this
type of vehicle, so all kinds of numbers are being used currently

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 12:52:26 -0500, "RBM" wrote:




I think that if 95% of the driving public go less than 40 miles per day,
and the car could be built,sold,
and maintained, and didn't need to be subsidized, and the car company
could make a profit,
at least some reasonable segment of the public would buy it. That
currently isn't the case.
I also think that if GM believed that they had a "winner", they wouldn't
have to come up with a
secret, convoluted formula for figuring MPG's @ 230

1. You don't need 95% market share of anything to succeed.
2. Yes, the product has to be solid.
3. Yes, the Volt is being subsidized, as was the Toyota Prius and all
the high efficiency furnaces they're talking about in another thread.
4. GM is making a profit.
5. The EPA determines MPG figures, not GM. And it's not 230 MPG.

So you're batting .400.
In baseball they'd call you Ted Williams and you'd be a hero.
With most work it just gets your ass fired.

--Vic

Here is one of the many articles regarding GM's claim of 230 MPG:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/19/chevy-...ll-be-reduced/

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:05:01 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


If Toyota only made the Prius, they'd be out of business

Yep, I heard they were taking a big loss on each initially.
Don't know if that's still true.
And reports say that GM is only making $1000 per Volt.

It's way too early to know if GM is really making a profit.

I'm only going by press reports.
I don't trust them either.

The EPA hasn't yet figured out how they're going to figure MPG's for this
type of vehicle, so all kinds of numbers are being used currently


EPA pegged the Volt at 60 MPG.
I think gas powered it gets about 35 MPG.
If your driving allows you to run all electric, then you can figure
your "MPG" by converting charging costs to gasoline cost.
We'll be hearing a lot about it in the next few years.

--Vic

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:11:39 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


Here is one of the many articles regarding GM's claim of 230 MPG:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/19/chevy-...ll-be-reduced/


I saw that, but never believed those claims.
The EPA at least gets close.
Somebody here with good math skills can convert $4.00 gas to the
electric rate you would pay to get 230 MPG.
But even then they better lower the Volt range to 35 miles, which is
what real world tests say it gets - without A/C or heat running.
Like I said, given my driving needs it would work for me.
But not at the current price.
I only spent more than $3500 on a car once in my 63 years.
I'll never own a Volt.
Plenty of others will if it succeeds.

--Vic

On 12/5/2010 3:04 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 14:22:44 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 08:46:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

well electric cars are coming and at home resale time lack of capacity
could discourage buyers. its not just the volt or the telsa, its the
nissan leaf and others.theres a plug in version of the prius coming
too.

I was pretty serious about an electric car since I thought I was the
perfect candidate. I don't drive far but I drive everyday. I also have
a truck and my wife has a "trip car". Unfortunately I still could not
get the numbers to work out, even for a $10k kit conversion on my old
Honda. The biggest unrecognized problem is replacing the batteries
every 3-4 years ($1300-$1500). I was looking at a 10-12 year payback
and not really getting much better in the out years, if the power was
free. I didn't drive far enough.
If you start with $10k, add 2 sets of batteries over 10 years and
assume $3 gas against a car that gets 28 MPG (my Honda) your kit and
batteries will buy gas for 33 miles a day, 365 days a year for 10
years. I will still get an electric bill on top of that. If you say 10
kwh (about 60% of 14 golf cart batteries) that is about $1.40 a day
assuming no losses in the charger and 100% transfer of power in the
car.
I suppose the goldilocks situation is a commuter who has a 15-20 mile
commute and does not need heat or A/C. Nobody has said what the range
is with the heater on or running an A/C.

None of your battery costs apply to cars like the Prius or Volt.
The Volt battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles.
Prius is similar.

Hell, cars usually have that many miles on them before I buy them.
Somehow I don't think there will be many 3rd or 4th owner hybrids, not
if a refresh of the battery pack costs as much as putting a used engine
in a real car.

--
aem sends....