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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

In article ,
Tony Miklos wrote:

Well it's been 31 years soldering electronics for a living for me, and
sorry, I don't use, nor need liquid flux.


Soldering electronics for a living, or making a living that involves
some soldering? I've had the liquid flux debate a number of times over
on s.e.r., and I'll say it again he If you don't use liquid flux, you
don't know what you're missing. Or, you don't really solder all that
much, and time and quality aren't all that important.

Some things, some times, sure, the flux core is enough. Nevertheless, go
to *any* facility where hand soldering is done on a production basis,
and you'll find a flux bottle at every workstation. Those little bottles
aren't there to gather dust.
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In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

BS.

My "go-to" soldering iron is a 25-watt cheapy that looks like it's going
to fall apart any minute. I've re-ground and filed the tip countless
times. Still works fine. Tins fine.

Don't believe everything you read here ...


"works fine" and "tins fine" are in the eye of the beholder. Try a real
soldering iron with a real, *new* tip, and see what you're missing.
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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:12:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:13 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:55:01 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:51 pm, Steve wrote:
On 11/29/2010 7:14 AM, Hank wrote:





On Nov 29, 12:26 am, wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

As one beginner to another.....

First, I don't know much if anything about soldering, but I do solder
wires wires together pretty often.

Second, I only solder either aluminum or copper wires, which are easy.

Third, the advise you have received here is good, but they didn't
mention that the wire has to be clean too. If the wire is old and
oxidized, it has to be clipped off or cleaned too.

Fourth, use a resin core solder.

Fifth, I scape off my tips with a knife. I have even used a bench
grinder to grind them back to a point. Then I heat up the iron and
melt solder on the tip which helps clean it, then wipe off the excess
solder.

Hope these little tips help.

Hank~~~assuming it is a Pencil type soldering iron

you don't solder aluminum. You might think you are, but no, you're not.

--
Steve Barker

Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)

Hank

Aircraft wire is silver plated or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"


The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD

Virtually all of it. Teflon, Tefzel, and all the other fancy schmansy
stuff.


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On 11/29/2010 9:23 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:01:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:41 AM, homer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:26:05 -0500,
wrote:

How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

Does no one use Sal Ammoniac to keep their soldering tips clean
anymore?


I do, it's usually the main component of tip cleaner. Another thing
that works well is either a copper or stainless steel pot scrubber.
I have a tip cleaner I got from Radio Shack years ago that is cone
shaped and has a compound that cleans a hot tip, it is used like
a pencil sharpener, I believe it contains sal ammoniac.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2wnbta8

TDD

Sal Ammoniac, (Ammonium Chloride) when heated, breaks down into
Ammonia and Hydrochloric Acid.
Definitely not good stuff to have around electronic circuit boards.

If you use it on your soldering iron, be sure to rinse the iron to
dilute/neutralize/remove the acid.


That's what the wet sponge is for. A little tray in my 40 year old
Weller temperature controlled soldering station. I have some 40 year
old tips for it that are still working fine. I bought it new and have
replaced a few parts over the years but it ran 8-12 hours a day for
years when I was doing bench work with few problems.

http://www.action-electronics.com/pd...ntechsheet.pdf

TDD

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:10:25 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 4:13 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these
steps for your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of
your iron until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip
over a damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny
via the sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to
hold two items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base
metal of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will.
Once the plating is shot, it's shot.


Oh. Didn't know that. I suppose the cheap, disposable tips are merely plated
(maybe even just painted in bright colors) - the ones I use are solid
copper.


Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a
great idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only
mechanical bond between items.


Agreed solder IS a mechanical connection; a ****-poor mechanical connection
at that. Lay two wires side by side and solder them together. Then pull them
apart. Next tie the two wires together in a knot, solder them, and pull them
apart. If you can.

There's a HUGE difference between a soldered mechanical connection and the
mechanical connection of a solder joint.


A properly soldered joint doesn't not need a mechanical connection, like
twisting the wires together, in order to make a permanent electrical
connection. Matter of fact, NASA prohibits any such joint. They
prohibit it because if repairs are needed it is too difficult to take apart.


You are using a double negative so appear to be disagreeing with
tourself - but regardless, nasa notwitstanding (if it is true)
acceptable standards for aircraft repair ( I believe it is AC 43.13)
specifies joints must be mechanically secure before soldering, but
also (quite severely) limits where soldering is acceptable in aircraft
wiring. Solder wicking back a stranded wire hardens the wire and makes
a stress point where that hardening stops - a failure waiting to
happen when exposed to vibration.
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On 11/29/2010 11:53 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:12:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:13 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:55:01 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:51 pm, Steve wrote:
On 11/29/2010 7:14 AM, Hank wrote:





On Nov 29, 12:26 am, wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

As one beginner to another.....

First, I don't know much if anything about soldering, but I do solder
wires wires together pretty often.

Second, I only solder either aluminum or copper wires, which are easy.

Third, the advise you have received here is good, but they didn't
mention that the wire has to be clean too. If the wire is old and
oxidized, it has to be clipped off or cleaned too.

Fourth, use a resin core solder.

Fifth, I scape off my tips with a knife. I have even used a bench
grinder to grind them back to a point. Then I heat up the iron and
melt solder on the tip which helps clean it, then wipe off the excess
solder.

Hope these little tips help.

Hank~~~assuming it is a Pencil type soldering iron

you don't solder aluminum. You might think you are, but no, you're not.

--
Steve Barker

Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)

Hank
Aircraft wire is silver plated or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"


The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD

Virtually all of it. Teflon, Tefzel, and all the other fancy schmansy
stuff.


I love that wire for electronics work and surprise, it's the best wire
in the world for soldering to those Bendix aerospace connectors and
making wiring harnesses. :-)

TDD
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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 19:43:19 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:56:13 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.


As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these steps
for
your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of your
iron
until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip over a
damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny via the
sponge business, repeat steps 1 & 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to hold
two
items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base metal
of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will. Once the
plating is shot, it's shot.


That depends entirely onthe tip. An "iron" tip is different from a
"copper" tip.

I've successfully tinned copper tips, and plated copper tips



See my reply to HeyBub about tips.


Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a great
idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only mechanical bond
between items.



True, but an electrical connection that is not mechanically secure
before soldering does not pass any inspection. (except for solid wire
into a printed circuit board)


I've personally inspected millions of solder joints. On the topic of
soldering, I'm pretty sure I know more than you do, Clare. Not that I
expect you to admit it. You're one of those "often wrong, never in
doubt" types.


You have inspected millions of solder joints. I won't dispute that.
What were these joints on?
On circuit boards you are correct - and I stated that.

What kind of joints between 2 wires do you inspect that do not have a
mechanical connection component other than solder? On what?

Educate us please.

If they were not joints between 2 wires, what kind of joint were they?
( am assuming we are on target here and they were electrical
connections - although even most (although certainly not all) tinwork
has some crimping involved before soldering)

Wiring onto terminal strips GENERALLY involves a "hook" of some sort
on solid core connection wires.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right - I'm just asking what
connections, and what kind of connections, on what, do you consider to
be adequate with no mechanical component to the connection other than
the solder.


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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:14:46 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 5:12 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:56:13 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In ,
wrote:

wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.


As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these steps for
your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of your iron
until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip over a
damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny via the
sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to hold two
items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base metal
of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will. Once the
plating is shot, it's shot.


That depends entirely onthe tip. An "iron" tip is different from a
"copper" tip.

I've successfully tinned copper tips, and plated copper tips

Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a great
idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only mechanical bond
between items.



True, but an electrical connection that is not mechanically secure
before soldering does not pass any inspection. (except for solid wire
into a printed circuit board)


Well it just happens to be that NASA prohibits a mechanical connection
before soldering it. It makes it too difficult to repair. I'd imagine
there is a bit of vibration, but the connections hold just fine.

In avionics, in general, soldered connections in a wiring harness
are FORBIDDEN. Crimped connections only, thank you very much. Soldered
connections must be supported against vibration for a distance in both
directions from the joint. Perhaps in space where gravity is not an
issue things are different.
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"Tony Miklos" wrote in message ...


Look for some real instructions in an electronics book or somewhere else.
Surely there are a hundred or so web sites to teach you.


As my soldering jobs have traditionally looked like they were done by a
drunk wearing boxing-gloves, I recently made an effort to get better at it,
and found the website below helpful. As a result I rewired a Fender bass I
got cheap at a flea market and it now works great--and the soldering doesn't
look like wreckage from an aviation accident.

http://store.curiousinventor.com/guides/How_to_Solder

I have what looks like a small heavy steel ashtray with a rubber bottom
which holds the brass wool which is made for that purpose. You will have
to stick the tip in and twist and turn it to scrape it clean, immediatly
followed by melting solder on it.


I picked up one of those at a local electronics store for about six bucks,
very handy.

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On Nov 30, 12:12*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:


you don't solder aluminum. *You might think you are, but no, you're not.


--
Steve Barker


Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)


Hank

* Aircraft wire is silver plated *or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"


The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD-


I think the stuff I use is teflon. It is very smooth and tough. I
bought a big roll of it about 20 years ago at an aircraft Mfg. plant
salvage yard.

Hank
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On Nov 30, 1:11*am, wrote:


Well it just happens to be that NASA prohibits a mechanical connection
before soldering it. *It makes it too difficult to repair. *I'd imagine
there is a bit of vibration, but the connections hold just fine.


* In avionics, in general, soldered connections in a wiring harness
are FORBIDDEN. Crimped connections only, thank you very much. Soldered
connections must be supported against vibration for a distance in both
directions from the joint. Perhaps in space where gravity is not an
issue things are different.-


So, what is it? Are they forbidden or are they forbidden if not
supported? I know they aren't totally forbidden because I know that
when an instrument is installed using a plug type connection, they
solder the wires to the plug.

Hank ~~~ confused
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harry wrote:

Ah what cobblers you speak.
Some copper pressure vessels are soldered. Copper pipes are almost
always soldered.
Countless domestic pots and pans and kettles were soldered in the
past.
Lead pipes were soldered.
Electric cable carrying thousands of amps can be soldered for the
electrical connection and mechanical support.
Tinplate toys were soldered.

If you can pull apart your soldered joint, you don't know how to
solder.


The examples you gave are (mostly) not subject to mechanical stress.

I'll bet I could pull apart YOUR soldered (only) wire joint. I'll bet my CAT
could probably pull apart your soldered joint. Heck, your soldered wires
would probably fall apart out of shame.

I'll further bet an insane ostrich couldn't pull mine apart.




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DerbyDad03 wrote:

"The devices in the circuit board are mechanically held in place
by virtue of passing through the board"

Not on any boards I've built or repaired. The wire or component leads
are loose in the holes and will pull right out unless solder is
applied to the tinned pad on the lead side.

Ever encounter a cold solder joint on a circuit board? A nice neat
mound of solder that looks good on visual inspection but a component
lead that will pull right out through the board because there is
nothing holding it in place.


Your technique may need revision.

I was taught to push the lead through the hole, bend it over to provide
mechanical connection, solder, then clip the dog leg.

You are evidently skipping the "bend over" step. Your technique makes
removing the component MUCH easier - until the component simply falls out on
its own.


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On 11/30/2010 12:39 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Tony wrote:

Well it's been 31 years soldering electronics for a living for me, and
sorry, I don't use, nor need liquid flux.


Soldering electronics for a living, or making a living that involves
some soldering? I've had the liquid flux debate a number of times over
on s.e.r., and I'll say it again he If you don't use liquid flux, you
don't know what you're missing. Or, you don't really solder all that
much, and time and quality aren't all that important.

Some things, some times, sure, the flux core is enough. Nevertheless, go
to *any* facility where hand soldering is done on a production basis,
and you'll find a flux bottle at every workstation. Those little bottles
aren't there to gather dust.


Well I'm open to trying something new (to me anyway). What brand and
where do you buy the liquid flux you use? Is it supposed to be washed
off like rosin?
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On 11/30/2010 1:39 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:23:04 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 10:41 AM, homer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:26:05 -0500,
wrote:

How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

Does no one use Sal Ammoniac to keep their soldering tips clean
anymore?


I forget what it's called, but I have some kind of ammonia block that I
sometimes rub the tips on. Not sure if that is what you mean?

That would be the stuff.
Not the best idea for electronic soldering because of the hydrochloric
acid that co-exists with the ammonia, and is the active material
involved in removing the oxide scale from the copper.


No problem, most of it gets scrubbed off in the 2nd step with the brass
wool anyway. And I have seen hundreds of cases of my soldering on
circuit boards 15-20 years later and there has been no problems.


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On 11/30/2010 12:10 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 11/29/2010 4:13 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these
steps for your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of
your iron until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip
over a damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny
via the sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to
hold two items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base
metal of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will.
Once the plating is shot, it's shot.


Oh. Didn't know that. I suppose the cheap, disposable tips are merely
plated
(maybe even just painted in bright colors) - the ones I use are solid
copper.


Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a
great idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only
mechanical bond between items.


Agreed solder IS a mechanical connection; a ****-poor mechanical
connection
at that. Lay two wires side by side and solder them together. Then
pull them
apart. Next tie the two wires together in a knot, solder them, and
pull them
apart. If you can.

There's a HUGE difference between a soldered mechanical connection and
the
mechanical connection of a solder joint.


A properly soldered joint doesn't not need a mechanical connection,


Oops! That should read "doesn't need" not "doesn't not need".



like
twisting the wires together, in order to make a permanent electrical
connection. Matter of fact, NASA prohibits any such joint. They prohibit
it because if repairs are needed it is too difficult to take apart.


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On 11/30/2010 1:00 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:10:25 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 4:13 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these
steps for your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of
your iron until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip
over a damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny
via the sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to
hold two items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base
metal of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will.
Once the plating is shot, it's shot.

Oh. Didn't know that. I suppose the cheap, disposable tips are merely plated
(maybe even just painted in bright colors) - the ones I use are solid
copper.


Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a
great idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only
mechanical bond between items.

Agreed solder IS a mechanical connection; a ****-poor mechanical connection
at that. Lay two wires side by side and solder them together. Then pull them
apart. Next tie the two wires together in a knot, solder them, and pull them
apart. If you can.

There's a HUGE difference between a soldered mechanical connection and the
mechanical connection of a solder joint.


A properly soldered joint doesn't not need a mechanical connection, like
twisting the wires together, in order to make a permanent electrical
connection. Matter of fact, NASA prohibits any such joint. They
prohibit it because if repairs are needed it is too difficult to take apart.


You are using a double negative so appear to be disagreeing with
tourself - but regardless, nasa notwitstanding (if it is true)
acceptable standards for aircraft repair ( I believe it is AC 43.13)
specifies joints must be mechanically secure before soldering, but
also (quite severely) limits where soldering is acceptable in aircraft
wiring. Solder wicking back a stranded wire hardens the wire and makes
a stress point where that hardening stops - a failure waiting to
happen when exposed to vibration.


Ah, a typo. Read it as a single negative and you will understand what I
mean. Another reason solder joints shouldn't be mechanically secure
before soldering is because that practice can hide poor solder joints.
It may be a cold solder joint but it doesn't show up easy as if it would
without a separate mechanical connection.

As far as solder wicking up wire, yes I agree the wicking and vibration
is a very bad combo. As far as NASA, I believe that was mostly applied
to components on circuit boards.
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On 11/30/2010 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:14:46 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 5:12 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:56:13 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In ,
wrote:

wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.


As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these steps for
your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of your iron
until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip over a
damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny via the
sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to hold two
items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base metal
of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will. Once the
plating is shot, it's shot.


That depends entirely onthe tip. An "iron" tip is different from a
"copper" tip.

I've successfully tinned copper tips, and plated copper tips

Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a great
idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only mechanical bond
between items.


True, but an electrical connection that is not mechanically secure
before soldering does not pass any inspection. (except for solid wire
into a printed circuit board)


Well it just happens to be that NASA prohibits a mechanical connection
before soldering it. It makes it too difficult to repair. I'd imagine
there is a bit of vibration, but the connections hold just fine.

In avionics, in general, soldered connections in a wiring harness
are FORBIDDEN. Crimped connections only, thank you very much. Soldered
connections must be supported against vibration for a distance in both
directions from the joint. Perhaps in space where gravity is not an
issue things are different.


Think components in printed circuit boards, not wires.
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On 11/30/2010 1:52 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
wrote:



You have inspected millions of solder joints. I won't dispute that.
What were these joints on?
On circuit boards you are correct - and I stated that.

What kind of joints between 2 wires do you inspect that do not have a
mechanical connection component other than solder? On what?

Educate us please.

If they were not joints between 2 wires, what kind of joint were they?
( am assuming we are on target here and they were electrical
connections - although even most (although certainly not all) tinwork
has some crimping involved before soldering)

Wiring onto terminal strips GENERALLY involves a "hook" of some sort
on solid core connection wires.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right - I'm just asking what
connections, and what kind of connections, on what, do you consider to
be adequate with no mechanical component to the connection other than
the solder.


It's true that most of those joints are components on circuit boards;
through hole and surface mount. But we regularly solder wires to flat
pads on circuit boards. No mechanical connection whatsoever, other than
the solder. We also solder wires to speaker terminals, again, no
mechanical wrap at all.

We solder wires to switches and other chassis mounted controls; some of
them are wrapped but many of them are not. A wire to a turret terminal,
sure, it should have a 75% mechanical wrap. But not everything benefits
from that.

As far as wire to wire, lap splicing is common in wiring, almost always
protected by shrink tubing, but that is more for electrical insulation
than mechanical reinforcement. Twisting is great for electrical work,
capped by a wire nut. Lap splicing is more common in electronics, as it
takes up far less room, and is easier to cover with shrink tubing.

We make high end audio gear, communication components for the
professional dive industry, optical encoder sub-assemblies used in all
manner of automated equipment, and virtual reality electronics, among
others. These are not garage shop customers, they're real companies with
world-wide markets, and actual engineers designing the stuff, and
ultimately approving our workmanship.

Solder, done well, is damn strong. It's true that some things are poorly
engineered, and I'll argue against a customer asking me to add solder to
a crimped connector.

I'm going to do a little test for our a.h.r. homeboy in Texas: I'm going
to take some 18 AWG wire, and hang weight on it until it breaks. Then
I'm going to cut the wire in half, and butt splice it with solder, and
test it again.


Cool, I await the results!!

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:49:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/30/2010 1:08 AM, harry wrote:
On Nov 29, 9:13 pm, wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:

As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these
steps for your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of
your iron until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip
over a damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny
via the sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to
hold two items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base
metal of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will.
Once the plating is shot, it's shot.

Oh. Didn't know that. I suppose the cheap, disposable tips are merely plated
(maybe even just painted in bright colors) - the ones I use are solid
copper.



Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a
great idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only
mechanical bond between items.

Agreed solder IS a mechanical connection; a ****-poor mechanical connection
at that. Lay two wires side by side and solder them together. Then pull them
apart. Next tie the two wires together in a knot, solder them, and pull them
apart. If you can.

There's a HUGE difference between a soldered mechanical connection and the
mechanical connection of a solder joint.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Ah what cobblers you speak.
Some copper pressure vessels are soldered. Copper pipes are almost
always soldered.
Countless domestic pots and pans and kettles were soldered in the
past.
Lead pipes were soldered.
Electric cable carrying thousands of amps can be soldered for the
electrical connection and mechanical support.
Tinplate toys were soldered.

If you can pull apart your soldered joint, you don't know how to
solder.


I've seen some new glue for copper pipe connectors, they're as easy
to use as PVC connections when utilizing this new glue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HX6ahDqoY4

TDD



Yup, when the stuff works it's great. I've used it. I won't waste my
money on it again, because when it DOESN't, work, it doesn't.
In my experience that was (more than once) too often


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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:52:32 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:



You have inspected millions of solder joints. I won't dispute that.
What were these joints on?
On circuit boards you are correct - and I stated that.

What kind of joints between 2 wires do you inspect that do not have a
mechanical connection component other than solder? On what?

Educate us please.

If they were not joints between 2 wires, what kind of joint were they?
( am assuming we are on target here and they were electrical
connections - although even most (although certainly not all) tinwork
has some crimping involved before soldering)

Wiring onto terminal strips GENERALLY involves a "hook" of some sort
on solid core connection wires.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right - I'm just asking what
connections, and what kind of connections, on what, do you consider to
be adequate with no mechanical component to the connection other than
the solder.


It's true that most of those joints are components on circuit boards;
through hole and surface mount. But we regularly solder wires to flat
pads on circuit boards. No mechanical connection whatsoever, other than
the solder. We also solder wires to speaker terminals, again, no
mechanical wrap at all.


ALL the high end speaker equipment I've worked on has had the wires
bent around the tabs on the speakers. Most of the junk chinese stuff
I've had to resolder has not - - -

We solder wires to switches and other chassis mounted controls; some of
them are wrapped but many of them are not. A wire to a turret terminal,
sure, it should have a 75% mechanical wrap. But not everything benefits
from that.

As far as wire to wire, lap splicing is common in wiring, almost always
protected by shrink tubing, but that is more for electrical insulation
than mechanical reinforcement. Twisting is great for electrical work,
capped by a wire nut. Lap splicing is more common in electronics, as it
takes up far less room, and is easier to cover with shrink tubing.


I was taught to twist lap, at the very least, and "western union"
joint every soldered splice before soldering and taping, or heat
schrinking, a joint, and to heat shrink at least half an inch past the
joint in both directions on 18 guage wire. A bit less (proportionally)
with decreasing wire guage. (for vibration/bending protection)

We make high end audio gear, communication components for the
professional dive industry, optical encoder sub-assemblies used in all
manner of automated equipment, and virtual reality electronics, among
others. These are not garage shop customers, they're real companies with
world-wide markets, and actual engineers designing the stuff, and
ultimately approving our workmanship.


I guess as long as it's better than the chinese, and not too much more
expensive - but it's still not "best practice"

Solder, done well, is damn strong. It's true that some things are poorly
engineered, and I'll argue against a customer asking me to add solder to
a crimped connector.


In mnost cases that is definitely correct. I will, on occaision, po]ut
a spot of solder on the terminal end (where the wire end comes
through) but it has to be a quick shot, not allowing ANY solder to
wick to the outer end of the crimp. Sometimes required for corrosion
protection (to keep fluid or corrosive gas from "wicking" up the
conductor) and always combined with a good heat shrink sleave on the
crimped end.

I'm going to do a little test for our a.h.r. homeboy in Texas: I'm going
to take some 18 AWG wire, and hang weight on it until it breaks. Then
I'm going to cut the wire in half, and butt splice it with solder, and
test it again.

If you can GUARANTEE you always make a perfect joint, and it will not
be subjected to undue vibration/stress, in theory the joint will work.
Tensile strength of 60/40 solder is 6400 lbs, shear is 5700.
Tensile strength of 63/37 is 6700, and shear is 6060.

In comparison, drawn copper wire is 12,500 and rolled is 32,000

None of your applications are particularly "safety" items - like
aircraft wiring and even automotive electronic control wiring.

For your applications, solder without independent mechanical
connection appears to be "good enough" - in most of my applications
it is NOT.
Best practices for soldered electrical joints involves a mechanically
secure joint which is THEN soldered to assure a permanent low
resistance electrical connection.


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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:02:32 -0800 (PST), Hank
wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:11Â*am, wrote:


Well it just happens to be that NASA prohibits a mechanical connection
before soldering it. Â*It makes it too difficult to repair. Â*I'd imagine
there is a bit of vibration, but the connections hold just fine.


Â* In avionics, in general, soldered connections in a wiring harness
are FORBIDDEN. Crimped connections only, thank you very much. Soldered
connections must be supported against vibration for a distance in both
directions from the joint. Perhaps in space where gravity is not an
issue things are different.-


So, what is it? Are they forbidden or are they forbidden if not
supported? I know they aren't totally forbidden because I know that
when an instrument is installed using a plug type connection, they
solder the wires to the plug.

Hank ~~~ confused

On a cannon type connection with strain relief, soldering is allowed.
On a cannon type connection with no strain relief, the pins are
crimped, and ONLY crimped.
On a Sub D type connector the same is true. If the connector is
soldered, the cable MUST be solidly affixed to the chassis of the
device or the tray within something like 2 inches - I'd have to dig
out the actual specs.

So generally, soldered wires without support are definitely forbidden,
and soldered connections with support are frowned upon - proper high
pressure crimps are preferred.
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:13:22 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/30/2010 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:14:46 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 5:12 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:56:13 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In ,
wrote:

wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.


As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these steps for
your abused iron.

1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of your iron
until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).

2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.

3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip over a
damp sponge.

4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny via the
sponge business, repeat steps 1& 2.

5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to hold two
items together is ultimately futile.

Nuts. OP, do not sand the tip. Throw it away and buy new. The base metal
of the tip will not tin with solder, only the plating will. Once the
plating is shot, it's shot.


That depends entirely onthe tip. An "iron" tip is different from a
"copper" tip.

I've successfully tinned copper tips, and plated copper tips

Solder is a mechanical *and* electrical connection. Twisting is a great
idea, but solder is used all damn day long as the only mechanical bond
between items.


True, but an electrical connection that is not mechanically secure
before soldering does not pass any inspection. (except for solid wire
into a printed circuit board)

Well it just happens to be that NASA prohibits a mechanical connection
before soldering it. It makes it too difficult to repair. I'd imagine
there is a bit of vibration, but the connections hold just fine.

In avionics, in general, soldered connections in a wiring harness
are FORBIDDEN. Crimped connections only, thank you very much. Soldered
connections must be supported against vibration for a distance in both
directions from the joint. Perhaps in space where gravity is not an
issue things are different.


Think components in printed circuit boards, not wires.

If the lead is short enough that the prevailing vibration frequencies
and their resonances are both high enough and low enough to make it
impossible for the components to be induced to vibrate and flex the
wire to cause fatigue, no problem, I guess.

I was always taught when populating a board with discrete,
through-hole components, to put the little hook in the lead to locate
it the proper distance from the board and to hold it relatively
securely in position for soldering. All the higher end contract board
assemblers around here always did that as well.

Lots of electronic manufacturing around here - home of RIM,
Electrohome,ComDev and a raft of other high-tech electronic companies
over the years - now more of the "silicon valley north" computer geek
businesses.
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On Nov 30, 7:11*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:52:32 -0800, Smitty Two





wrote:
In article ,
wrote:


You have inspected millions of solder joints. I won't dispute that.
What were these joints on?
On circuit boards you are correct - and I stated that.


What kind of joints between 2 wires do you inspect that do not have a
mechanical connection component other than solder? On what?


Educate us please.


If they were not joints between 2 wires, what kind of joint were they?
( am assuming we are on target here and they were electrical
connections - although even most (although certainly not all) tinwork
has some crimping involved before soldering)


Wiring onto terminal strips GENERALLY involves a "hook" of some sort
on solid core connection wires.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right - I'm just asking what
connections, and what kind of connections, on what, do you consider to
be adequate with no mechanical component to the connection other than
the solder.


It's true that most of those joints are components on circuit boards;
through hole and surface mount. But we regularly solder wires to flat
pads on circuit boards. No mechanical connection whatsoever, other than
the solder. We also solder wires to speaker terminals, again, no
mechanical wrap at all.


ALL the high end speaker equipment I've worked on has had the wires
bent around the tabs on the speakers. Most of the junk chinese stuff
I've had to resolder has not - - -



We solder wires to switches and other chassis mounted controls; some of
them are wrapped but many of them are not. A wire to a turret terminal,
sure, it should have a 75% mechanical wrap. But not everything benefits
from that.


As far as wire to wire, lap splicing is common in wiring, almost always
protected by shrink tubing, but that is more for electrical insulation
than mechanical reinforcement. Twisting is great for electrical work,
capped by a wire nut. Lap splicing is more common in electronics, as it
takes up far less room, and is easier to cover with shrink tubing.


I was taught to twist lap, at the very least, and "western union"
joint every soldered splice before soldering and taping, or heat
schrinking, a joint, and to heat shrink at least half an inch past the
joint in both directions on 18 guage wire. A bit less (proportionally)
with decreasing wire guage. (for vibration/bending protection)



We make high end audio gear, communication components for the
professional dive industry, optical encoder sub-assemblies used in all
manner of automated equipment, and virtual reality electronics, among
others. These are not garage shop customers, they're real companies with
world-wide markets, and actual engineers designing the stuff, and
ultimately approving our workmanship.


I guess as long as it's better than the chinese, and not too much more
expensive - but it's still not "best practice"



Solder, done well, is damn strong. It's true that some things are poorly
engineered, and I'll argue against a customer asking me to add solder to
a crimped connector.


In mnost cases that is definitely correct. I will, on occaision, po]ut
a spot of solder on the terminal end (where the wire end comes
through) but it has to be a *quick shot, not allowing ANY solder to
wick to the outer end of the crimp. Sometimes required for corrosion
protection (to keep fluid or corrosive gas from "wicking" up the
conductor) and always combined with a good heat shrink sleave on the
crimped end.

I'm going to do a little test for our a.h.r. homeboy in Texas: I'm going
to take some 18 AWG wire, and hang weight on it until it breaks. Then
I'm going to cut the wire in half, and butt splice it with solder, and
test it again.


*If you can GUARANTEE you always make a perfect joint, and it will not
be subjected to undue vibration/stress, in theory the joint will work.
Tensile strength of 60/40 solder is 6400 lbs, shear is 5700.
Tensile strength of 63/37 is 6700, and shear is 6060.

In comparison, drawn copper wire is 12,500 and rolled is 32,000

None of your applications are particularly "safety" items - like
aircraft wiring and even automotive electronic control wiring.

For your applications, solder without independent mechanical
connection appears to be "good enough" *- in most of my applications
it is NOT.
Best practices for soldered electrical joints involves a mechanically
secure joint which is THEN soldered to assure a permanent low
resistance electrical connection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The wire connections to motor armatures are soldered (or were in the
past). Including automotive starter motors and dynamos. Plenty of
stress there.
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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:58:11 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 19:45:54 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Also, PROPER installation involves spreading the leads slighly when
they come through the hole so the component stays in place when you
either turn the board over to solder it, or move the board to the wave
soldering machine.

Utter nonsense. Is this ever done? Yes. Is it the only PROPER way to
install components in a PCB? Absolutely not.


Mechanically placed components virtually all have (or at least had)
that little kink that held the part in place.
All the custom boards I had made also did. (we are talking in the
computer industry) And all the automotive computers I've worked
on/repaired (up until the '90s)

And a very large number of SMTs are glued to the board (solder paste
in some cases) which does not do much for the final strength, but
keeps the part in place until it is soldered


There's no real reason to latch through-hole components to the board
prior to soldering, unless you're worried about them getting lost on the
way to the machine. High volume automated stuffing machines had that
feature built in, which is probably why you used to see it on computers
and such.

SMDs are glued down on double sided boards, on the bottom side only so
the parts don't fall off during reflow. Otherwise, it's extra time and
money for no gain.

A lot of the stuff I worked on was custom - and not high volume - and
the little "hook" was standard, virtually across the board. Dealt with
some pretty high end contract assemblers. Waterloo Region is NOT the
low-tech part of the country. A lot of the work these guys did was
aerospace or high end industrial electronics.

Ever hear of Dalsa, ComDev,Christie Digital, RIM, Agile Systems,
Accellerated Systems, SRE Controls, Navitas, Virtek, Raytheon, NCR,
ATS, just for starters.


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On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:10:26 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 29, 10:16Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:37:39 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On Nov 29, 8:22Â*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in Â*for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. Â*It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?


I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.


Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. Â*The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.


As others have said, the solder won't stick to crud. Follow these steps for
your abused iron.


1. Using a file or sandpaper, abrade off the crap from the tip of your iron
until the tip is shiny base metal (either copper or steel).


2. Plug in the iron and, when it gets hot, cover the tip with solder.


3. Periodically during your soldering project, drag your iron's tip over a
damp sponge.


4. When the iron's tip turns black and can't be returned to shiny via the
sponge business, repeat steps 1 & 2.


5. You are correct when you twist the wires together. Soldering is an
ELECTRICAL connection, not a mechanical one. Depending on solder to hold two
items together is ultimately futile.


"Depending on solder to hold two items together is ultimately
futile."


Hmm...I wonder what's holding all of those little electronic
components onto the circuit boards.


I also wonder why I can easily pull twisted wires apart but I have
hard time pulling soldered wires apart.


I guess there must be something else holding that stuff together.


Â*The devices in the circuit board are mechanically held in place by
virtue of passing through the board - and the solder just stiffens the
wire to make it harder to pull apart, then glues the twisted wires so
they cannot easily move in relation to each other. Two wires laid
together and soldered can be separated relatively easily in comparison
- and a wire just laid on a circuit board and soldered WILL fail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


You are in cloud cuckoo land. Clearly you have never assembled an
electronic device made from descrete compoments. The ignorance is
astounding.

I've actually done more "discrete component" assembly than LSI stuff
- and a fair amount of the old "point to point" as well. Printed
circuits were still pretty crude when I got started.
Did a fair bit of vacuum tube stuff too.
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 08:49:14 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
Sal Ammoniac, (Ammonium Chloride) when heated, breaks down into
Ammonia and Hydrochloric Acid.
Definitely not good stuff to have around electronic circuit boards.

If you use it on your soldering iron, be sure to rinse the iron to
dilute/neutralize/remove the acid.


Uh, the boiling point of HCL is (at most) 230F degrees. Wouldn't it boil
away on a soldering iron?

And if it doesn't, it is just concentrated.
By your logic, acid core solder should work just fine??
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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:58:33 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/30/2010 1:39 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:23:04 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 10:41 AM, homer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 00:26:05 -0500,
wrote:

How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

Does no one use Sal Ammoniac to keep their soldering tips clean
anymore?

I forget what it's called, but I have some kind of ammonia block that I
sometimes rub the tips on. Not sure if that is what you mean?

That would be the stuff.
Not the best idea for electronic soldering because of the hydrochloric
acid that co-exists with the ammonia, and is the active material
involved in removing the oxide scale from the copper.


No problem, most of it gets scrubbed off in the 2nd step with the brass
wool anyway. And I have seen hundreds of cases of my soldering on
circuit boards 15-20 years later and there has been no problems.

That's because YOU know enough to finish the job with that step two -
wet spong or "kurly kate"
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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:26:23 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 30, 7:11Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:52:32 -0800, Smitty Two





wrote:
In article ,
wrote:


You have inspected millions of solder joints. I won't dispute that.
What were these joints on?
On circuit boards you are correct - and I stated that.


What kind of joints between 2 wires do you inspect that do not have a
mechanical connection component other than solder? On what?


Educate us please.


If they were not joints between 2 wires, what kind of joint were they?
( am assuming we are on target here and they were electrical
connections - although even most (although certainly not all) tinwork
has some crimping involved before soldering)


Wiring onto terminal strips GENERALLY involves a "hook" of some sort
on solid core connection wires.


I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right - I'm just asking what
connections, and what kind of connections, on what, do you consider to
be adequate with no mechanical component to the connection other than
the solder.


It's true that most of those joints are components on circuit boards;
through hole and surface mount. But we regularly solder wires to flat
pads on circuit boards. No mechanical connection whatsoever, other than
the solder. We also solder wires to speaker terminals, again, no
mechanical wrap at all.


ALL the high end speaker equipment I've worked on has had the wires
bent around the tabs on the speakers. Most of the junk chinese stuff
I've had to resolder has not - - -



We solder wires to switches and other chassis mounted controls; some of
them are wrapped but many of them are not. A wire to a turret terminal,
sure, it should have a 75% mechanical wrap. But not everything benefits
from that.


As far as wire to wire, lap splicing is common in wiring, almost always
protected by shrink tubing, but that is more for electrical insulation
than mechanical reinforcement. Twisting is great for electrical work,
capped by a wire nut. Lap splicing is more common in electronics, as it
takes up far less room, and is easier to cover with shrink tubing.


I was taught to twist lap, at the very least, and "western union"
joint every soldered splice before soldering and taping, or heat
schrinking, a joint, and to heat shrink at least half an inch past the
joint in both directions on 18 guage wire. A bit less (proportionally)
with decreasing wire guage. (for vibration/bending protection)



We make high end audio gear, communication components for the
professional dive industry, optical encoder sub-assemblies used in all
manner of automated equipment, and virtual reality electronics, among
others. These are not garage shop customers, they're real companies with
world-wide markets, and actual engineers designing the stuff, and
ultimately approving our workmanship.


I guess as long as it's better than the chinese, and not too much more
expensive - but it's still not "best practice"



Solder, done well, is damn strong. It's true that some things are poorly
engineered, and I'll argue against a customer asking me to add solder to
a crimped connector.


In mnost cases that is definitely correct. I will, on occaision, po]ut
a spot of solder on the terminal end (where the wire end comes
through) but it has to be a Â*quick shot, not allowing ANY solder to
wick to the outer end of the crimp. Sometimes required for corrosion
protection (to keep fluid or corrosive gas from "wicking" up the
conductor) and always combined with a good heat shrink sleave on the
crimped end.

I'm going to do a little test for our a.h.r. homeboy in Texas: I'm going
to take some 18 AWG wire, and hang weight on it until it breaks. Then
I'm going to cut the wire in half, and butt splice it with solder, and
test it again.


Â*If you can GUARANTEE you always make a perfect joint, and it will not
be subjected to undue vibration/stress, in theory the joint will work.
Tensile strength of 60/40 solder is 6400 lbs, shear is 5700.
Tensile strength of 63/37 is 6700, and shear is 6060.

In comparison, drawn copper wire is 12,500 and rolled is 32,000

None of your applications are particularly "safety" items - like
aircraft wiring and even automotive electronic control wiring.

For your applications, solder without independent mechanical
connection appears to be "good enough" Â*- in most of my applications
it is NOT.
Best practices for soldered electrical joints involves a mechanically
secure joint which is THEN soldered to assure a permanent low
resistance electrical connection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The wire connections to motor armatures are soldered (or were in the
past). Including automotive starter motors and dynamos. Plenty of
stress there.

And the wires are also tied - wrapped with string and varnished - in
MANY, but not all applications.
And I've seen many an armature unwound from overspeed.


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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:02:14 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 11:53 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:12:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:13 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:55:01 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:51 pm, Steve wrote:
On 11/29/2010 7:14 AM, Hank wrote:





On Nov 29, 12:26 am, wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

As one beginner to another.....

First, I don't know much if anything about soldering, but I do solder
wires wires together pretty often.

Second, I only solder either aluminum or copper wires, which are easy.

Third, the advise you have received here is good, but they didn't
mention that the wire has to be clean too. If the wire is old and
oxidized, it has to be clipped off or cleaned too.

Fourth, use a resin core solder.

Fifth, I scape off my tips with a knife. I have even used a bench
grinder to grind them back to a point. Then I heat up the iron and
melt solder on the tip which helps clean it, then wipe off the excess
solder.

Hope these little tips help.

Hank~~~assuming it is a Pencil type soldering iron

you don't solder aluminum. You might think you are, but no, you're not.

--
Steve Barker

Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)

Hank
Aircraft wire is silver plated or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"

The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD

Virtually all of it. Teflon, Tefzel, and all the other fancy schmansy
stuff.


I love that wire for electronics work and surprise, it's the best wire
in the world for soldering to those Bendix aerospace connectors and
making wiring harnesses. :-)


Teflon insulation doesn't burn but it does creep. It's not good around
anything even slightly sharp.
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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:58:11 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 19:45:54 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Also, PROPER installation involves spreading the leads slighly when
they come through the hole so the component stays in place when you
either turn the board over to solder it, or move the board to the wave
soldering machine.

Utter nonsense. Is this ever done? Yes. Is it the only PROPER way to
install components in a PCB? Absolutely not.


Mechanically placed components virtually all have (or at least had)
that little kink that held the part in place.
All the custom boards I had made also did. (we are talking in the
computer industry) And all the automotive computers I've worked
on/repaired (up until the '90s)

And a very large number of SMTs are glued to the board (solder paste
in some cases) which does not do much for the final strength, but
keeps the part in place until it is soldered


There's no real reason to latch through-hole components to the board
prior to soldering, unless you're worried about them getting lost on the
way to the machine. High volume automated stuffing machines had that
feature built in, which is probably why you used to see it on computers
and such.


Correct.

SMDs are glued down on double sided boards, on the bottom side only so
the parts don't fall off during reflow. Otherwise, it's extra time and
money for no gain.


Nope, unless you consider "solder paste" to be "glue". The normal SMT process
uses no glue, rather does a pass through the oven for each side. Glue is
sometimes used but not generally.
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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On 11/30/2010 7:06 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:02:14 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 11:53 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:12:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:13 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:55:01 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:51 pm, Steve wrote:
On 11/29/2010 7:14 AM, Hank wrote:





On Nov 29, 12:26 am, wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

As one beginner to another.....

First, I don't know much if anything about soldering, but I do solder
wires wires together pretty often.

Second, I only solder either aluminum or copper wires, which are easy.

Third, the advise you have received here is good, but they didn't
mention that the wire has to be clean too. If the wire is old and
oxidized, it has to be clipped off or cleaned too.

Fourth, use a resin core solder.

Fifth, I scape off my tips with a knife. I have even used a bench
grinder to grind them back to a point. Then I heat up the iron and
melt solder on the tip which helps clean it, then wipe off the excess
solder.

Hope these little tips help.

Hank~~~assuming it is a Pencil type soldering iron

you don't solder aluminum. You might think you are, but no, you're not.

--
Steve Barker

Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)

Hank
Aircraft wire is silver plated or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"

The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD
Virtually all of it. Teflon, Tefzel, and all the other fancy schmansy
stuff.


I love that wire for electronics work and surprise, it's the best wire
in the world for soldering to those Bendix aerospace connectors and
making wiring harnesses. :-)


Teflon insulation doesn't burn but it does creep. It's not good around
anything even slightly sharp.


You mean it will slowly flow apart if it rests on a sharp edge and cause
a short circuit? The tough nylon jacket on THHN seems to resist
that sort of break in the insulation. Geez, I just thought of the
thousands of feet of that stuff I've pulled into conduits and cable
trays over the years. :-)

TDD
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Default How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:06:10 -0600, "
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 00:02:14 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 11:53 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 23:12:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 9:13 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:55:01 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:51 pm, Steve wrote:
On 11/29/2010 7:14 AM, Hank wrote:





On Nov 29, 12:26 am, wrote:
How do you know when your soldering iron is tinned?
I keep mine plugged in for 5-10 minutes then when I try tin it, the
solder beads up and just drips offs. It doesn't seem to "wet" the
tip.
Is it suppose to wet the tip of the soldering iron?

I'm using non lead solder, 95%Sn, 5% Sb (Tin/Antimony).
Rosin core.

Also, when 1 solder two wires together, I twist the wires together,
then hold the iron to one side of the wire and hold the solder to the
opposite site. The wire should get hot and soak up the solder, right?
I've been practicing but it seems to be hit or miss so far.

Bonnie

As one beginner to another.....

First, I don't know much if anything about soldering, but I do solder
wires wires together pretty often.

Second, I only solder either aluminum or copper wires, which are easy.

Third, the advise you have received here is good, but they didn't
mention that the wire has to be clean too. If the wire is old and
oxidized, it has to be clipped off or cleaned too.

Fourth, use a resin core solder.

Fifth, I scape off my tips with a knife. I have even used a bench
grinder to grind them back to a point. Then I heat up the iron and
melt solder on the tip which helps clean it, then wipe off the excess
solder.

Hope these little tips help.

Hank~~~assuming it is a Pencil type soldering iron

you don't solder aluminum. You might think you are, but no, you're not.

--
Steve Barker

Like I said, I don't know much about soldering. I'm pretty sure the
wire is aluminum and stranded. It is high quality aircraft wire. It is
silver in color. Maybe its some alloy. Anyway, what I'm doing is
working for me. :-)

Hank
Aircraft wire is silver plated or tinned copper - and one of the
easiest types of wire to solder - it is "pre-tinned"

The stuff with the Teflon insulation?

TDD
Virtually all of it. Teflon, Tefzel, and all the other fancy schmansy
stuff.


I love that wire for electronics work and surprise, it's the best wire
in the world for soldering to those Bendix aerospace connectors and
making wiring harnesses. :-)


Teflon insulation doesn't burn but it does creep. It's not good around
anything even slightly sharp.

There has been a lot of "bad" teflon wire out there too - if the PTFE
is not fully cured (crosslinked) it outgasses flouride, which
corrodes even siver plated wire. And before anybody says I'm blowing
smoke, here is a reference:
http://www.residues.com/pdfs/foresite_teflon.pdf

And aircraft (mil spec) wire can be silver plated, nickel plated, or
tinned.

Also, teflon WILL burn, but it is self extinguishing - meaning it will
burn as long as a separate source of ignition exists.

I've got a reference around somewhere that covers the shortcomings of
all the mil-spec (aviation) rated wire and insulation.
There is really NONE that are "ideal". Either they have physical
limitations like cold flow or abrasion resistance, or they produce
toxins when heated or burned.
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