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#122
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:46:19 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote:
WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? Half of an Oregon city? |
#123
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:29:04 -0600, "
wrote: I said in the beginning you will often get away with it, but it is not the "recommended" way, it is not "best practice" and in some cases it WILL bite you. The subject was repair, Clueless Clare. The subject still IS repair. If you are replacing a component with an RoHS compliant component that is NOT tin plated, you MAY run into the problems noted. In your case you have double checked and all your components are tin coated leads, so for you it will work. Some components are NOT tin coated, and those can cause problems. Exceedingly rare (never saw one). Some are gold flashed, which is peachy, too. Everyone on the list is aware of it now , and knows your opinion. They also now know that there CAN be issues - so they can do as they like, and take their chances in situations where they are not sure of the coating if they want to. They also know you as Clueless Clare. I've been called worse. And you get called a LOT worse by your customers when you screw up a "simple" repair. |
#124
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
In article ,
Tony Miklos wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? An ignorant misspelling of voila. |
#125
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/6/2010 8:29 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In , Tony wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? An ignorant misspelling of voila. Ain't that there one O them big fiddles them folks play in uh oakastra? TDD |
#126
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Dec 6, 9:50*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 12/6/2010 8:29 PM, Smitty Two wrote: In , * Tony *wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? An ignorant misspelling of voila. Ain't that there one O them big fiddles them folks play in uh oakastra? TDD TELL'IM SQUEAZEBOX..I TAKE IT BACK, IT'S A MAGICAL MOMENT. BING BANG WALLAH WALLAH ! YOU TROLLS REALLY DO NOT HAVE MUCH OF EXCITMENT IN YOUR LIVES, SO I WAS TRYING TO ADD A LITTLE PIZZAZZ TO THE THREAD. PATECUM |
#127
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/6/2010 8:29 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:14:47 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:38:31 -0600, " wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 22:41:14 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:44:24 -0600, " wrote: Claire is a moron. I don't know who this Claire is - might well be a moron. Misspelled, *that* wasn't intended as a slight. However, This from an expert: Traditional tin-lead materials are not compatible with lead-free device finishes. Other than BGAs, one doesn't reflow the part, dummy. The solder paste gets reflowed. ...and once again, we were talking about *repair*. Because proper reflow for lead-free materials can only be achieved with higher temperatures, attempting to process lead-free terminated devices in 183?C tin-lead conditions leads to incomplete wetting and the related issues of voiding and opens. Wrong. As long as the solder paste is appropriate, it doesn't much matter whether the part is tin, tin-lead, or gold (or any other commonly used finish) tin-lead solder will wick just fine. ...better than lead-free solder will on the same parts, in fact. Doug Dixon, Global Marketing Director Henkel Corp Mr. Dixon has been in the electronics field for over twenty years and is the Global Marketing Director with the electronics group of Henkel. Prior to joining Henkel, he worked for Raytheon, Camalot Systems, and Universal Instruments. You can't read. I'll take his word over someone ( a usenet engineer) who fudges his ID on usenet. Yes indeed, who would believe a Usenet liar, like Clare? And another expert agrees: Many of the components manufactured in the last few years have been lead free, especially surface mount chip components as they are Tin plated. Indeed, almost all *are* tin plated. Can you solder these with 60/40 tin/lead solders, the answer is yes and millions of solder joint have been soldered this way for years. The problem however is some of the Lead-Free component plated RoHS components have a SAC alloy for a lead coating and this is the issue. The 60/40 alloy will not be hot enough to melt the SAC alloy to create a sound joint. Yes, many papers have been are being published stating that this will work, but keep in mind the thermal profile and the length of time the solder joint needs to be above the reflow temperature to all complete dissolution of the Tin/Lead into the SAC alloy coating or solder balls on the components. This is much different than what was used to the low temperature Tin/Lead alloys and dwell times above the reflow temperature is going to have to increase to create a sound solder joint. Nonsense. It works fine. Untill it doesn't. Leo Lambert, Vice President, Technical Director EPTAC Corporation At EPTAC Corporation, Mr. Lambert oversees content of course offerings, IPC Certification programs and provides customers with expert consultation in electronics manufacturing, including RoHS/WEEE and lead free issues. Leo is also the IPC General Chairman for the Assembly/Joining Process Committee. Again, I'll take the word of an acknowleged expert in the field over that of the unknown usenet engineer. If you are 100% certain your RoHS compliant components have tin coating, you CAN use leaded solder. They *all* are. Yes, I have checked all of our parts because that's part of what I do. Back to the original point, *REPAIR*. Leaded solder is just fine to repair RoHS gizmos. If you are just ASSuming all RoHS compliant components have tin coated leads, you are treading on extremely thin ice. Clueless Clare. I have stated that using leaded solder with RoHS compliant components is "not best practice" and can lead to product failures. Again, clueless. Repairing RoHS boards with leaded solder is, in fact, better than using lead free precisely because of the difference in temperatures and better wetting. I'm not saying you can't get away with it some or most of the time - I'm saying it is not correct, and it is wrong and dangerous to say it is "safe" or "proper" to solder RoHS compliant components with regular lead-based solders. Recommending it is not being responsible, without at least adding the possibilities of the "gotchas" which are well documented and recognized by the experts, and which I have provided cites for. Clueless Clare backpedals more. No backpdaling at all. Bull****. I said in the beginning you will often get away with it, but it is not the "recommended" way, it is not "best practice" and in some cases it WILL bite you. The subject was repair, Clueless Clare. In your case you have double checked and all your components are tin coated leads, so for you it will work. Some components are NOT tin coated, and those can cause problems. Exceedingly rare (never saw one). Some are gold flashed, which is peachy, too. A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. |
#128
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/6/2010 4:51 PM, George wrote:
On 12/6/2010 4:46 PM, Tony Miklos wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? I think it is a type of onion.. http://www.sweetonions.org/ LOL! I should have googled it. Do you rub the soldering iron in a fresh cut onion? Or is it like darts and potatoes and just stab the thing? |
#129
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/6/2010 5:37 PM, Larry W wrote:
In , wrote: On 12/6/2010 4:46 PM, Tony Miklos wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? I think it is a type of onion.. http://www.sweetonions.org/ It is another spelling variation on the common usenet exclamation often written as "viola" I'll stick with the onions, a "viola" is a musical instrument. |
#130
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/6/2010 5:37 PM, Larry W wrote:
In , wrote: On 12/6/2010 4:46 PM, Tony Miklos wrote: WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? I think it is a type of onion.. http://www.sweetonions.org/ It is another spelling variation on the common usenet exclamation often written as "viola" OK, it took a minute but now I see the connection. A "viola" is a musical instrument similar to a fiddle or violin..... which both use *rosin* on their bow. So now we are back to tinning a soldering iron with *rosin*! Although I don't see myself buying my rosin from a musical instruments store, buy hey, that's up to you. ;-) |
#131
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 09:26:16 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 12/6/2010 8:29 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:14:47 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:38:31 -0600, " wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 22:41:14 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:44:24 -0600, " wrote: Claire is a moron. I don't know who this Claire is - might well be a moron. Misspelled, *that* wasn't intended as a slight. However, This from an expert: Traditional tin-lead materials are not compatible with lead-free device finishes. Other than BGAs, one doesn't reflow the part, dummy. The solder paste gets reflowed. ...and once again, we were talking about *repair*. Because proper reflow for lead-free materials can only be achieved with higher temperatures, attempting to process lead-free terminated devices in 183?C tin-lead conditions leads to incomplete wetting and the related issues of voiding and opens. Wrong. As long as the solder paste is appropriate, it doesn't much matter whether the part is tin, tin-lead, or gold (or any other commonly used finish) tin-lead solder will wick just fine. ...better than lead-free solder will on the same parts, in fact. Doug Dixon, Global Marketing Director Henkel Corp Mr. Dixon has been in the electronics field for over twenty years and is the Global Marketing Director with the electronics group of Henkel. Prior to joining Henkel, he worked for Raytheon, Camalot Systems, and Universal Instruments. You can't read. I'll take his word over someone ( a usenet engineer) who fudges his ID on usenet. Yes indeed, who would believe a Usenet liar, like Clare? And another expert agrees: Many of the components manufactured in the last few years have been lead free, especially surface mount chip components as they are Tin plated. Indeed, almost all *are* tin plated. Can you solder these with 60/40 tin/lead solders, the answer is yes and millions of solder joint have been soldered this way for years. The problem however is some of the Lead-Free component plated RoHS components have a SAC alloy for a lead coating and this is the issue. The 60/40 alloy will not be hot enough to melt the SAC alloy to create a sound joint. Yes, many papers have been are being published stating that this will work, but keep in mind the thermal profile and the length of time the solder joint needs to be above the reflow temperature to all complete dissolution of the Tin/Lead into the SAC alloy coating or solder balls on the components. This is much different than what was used to the low temperature Tin/Lead alloys and dwell times above the reflow temperature is going to have to increase to create a sound solder joint. Nonsense. It works fine. Untill it doesn't. Leo Lambert, Vice President, Technical Director EPTAC Corporation At EPTAC Corporation, Mr. Lambert oversees content of course offerings, IPC Certification programs and provides customers with expert consultation in electronics manufacturing, including RoHS/WEEE and lead free issues. Leo is also the IPC General Chairman for the Assembly/Joining Process Committee. Again, I'll take the word of an acknowleged expert in the field over that of the unknown usenet engineer. If you are 100% certain your RoHS compliant components have tin coating, you CAN use leaded solder. They *all* are. Yes, I have checked all of our parts because that's part of what I do. Back to the original point, *REPAIR*. Leaded solder is just fine to repair RoHS gizmos. If you are just ASSuming all RoHS compliant components have tin coated leads, you are treading on extremely thin ice. Clueless Clare. I have stated that using leaded solder with RoHS compliant components is "not best practice" and can lead to product failures. Again, clueless. Repairing RoHS boards with leaded solder is, in fact, better than using lead free precisely because of the difference in temperatures and better wetting. I'm not saying you can't get away with it some or most of the time - I'm saying it is not correct, and it is wrong and dangerous to say it is "safe" or "proper" to solder RoHS compliant components with regular lead-based solders. Recommending it is not being responsible, without at least adding the possibilities of the "gotchas" which are well documented and recognized by the experts, and which I have provided cites for. Clueless Clare backpedals more. No backpdaling at all. Bull****. I said in the beginning you will often get away with it, but it is not the "recommended" way, it is not "best practice" and in some cases it WILL bite you. The subject was repair, Clueless Clare. In your case you have double checked and all your components are tin coated leads, so for you it will work. Some components are NOT tin coated, and those can cause problems. Exceedingly rare (never saw one). Some are gold flashed, which is peachy, too. A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. It sounds like these are contaminated. Any abrasive cleaning can damage the plating and could *easily* cause problems down the road. We used to call these sorts of things "solder proof" leads. It was generally because the stock was old. |
#132
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On 12/7/2010 7:41 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 09:26:16 -0500, Tony wrote: On 12/6/2010 8:29 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:14:47 -0500, wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 23:38:31 -0600, " wrote: On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 22:41:14 -0500, wrote: On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:44:24 -0600, " wrote: Claire is a moron. I don't know who this Claire is - might well be a moron. Misspelled, *that* wasn't intended as a slight. However, This from an expert: Traditional tin-lead materials are not compatible with lead-free device finishes. Other than BGAs, one doesn't reflow the part, dummy. The solder paste gets reflowed. ...and once again, we were talking about *repair*. Because proper reflow for lead-free materials can only be achieved with higher temperatures, attempting to process lead-free terminated devices in 183?C tin-lead conditions leads to incomplete wetting and the related issues of voiding and opens. Wrong. As long as the solder paste is appropriate, it doesn't much matter whether the part is tin, tin-lead, or gold (or any other commonly used finish) tin-lead solder will wick just fine. ...better than lead-free solder will on the same parts, in fact. Doug Dixon, Global Marketing Director Henkel Corp Mr. Dixon has been in the electronics field for over twenty years and is the Global Marketing Director with the electronics group of Henkel. Prior to joining Henkel, he worked for Raytheon, Camalot Systems, and Universal Instruments. You can't read. I'll take his word over someone ( a usenet engineer) who fudges his ID on usenet. Yes indeed, who would believe a Usenet liar, like Clare? And another expert agrees: Many of the components manufactured in the last few years have been lead free, especially surface mount chip components as they are Tin plated. Indeed, almost all *are* tin plated. Can you solder these with 60/40 tin/lead solders, the answer is yes and millions of solder joint have been soldered this way for years. The problem however is some of the Lead-Free component plated RoHS components have a SAC alloy for a lead coating and this is the issue. The 60/40 alloy will not be hot enough to melt the SAC alloy to create a sound joint. Yes, many papers have been are being published stating that this will work, but keep in mind the thermal profile and the length of time the solder joint needs to be above the reflow temperature to all complete dissolution of the Tin/Lead into the SAC alloy coating or solder balls on the components. This is much different than what was used to the low temperature Tin/Lead alloys and dwell times above the reflow temperature is going to have to increase to create a sound solder joint. Nonsense. It works fine. Untill it doesn't. Leo Lambert, Vice President, Technical Director EPTAC Corporation At EPTAC Corporation, Mr. Lambert oversees content of course offerings, IPC Certification programs and provides customers with expert consultation in electronics manufacturing, including RoHS/WEEE and lead free issues. Leo is also the IPC General Chairman for the Assembly/Joining Process Committee. Again, I'll take the word of an acknowleged expert in the field over that of the unknown usenet engineer. If you are 100% certain your RoHS compliant components have tin coating, you CAN use leaded solder. They *all* are. Yes, I have checked all of our parts because that's part of what I do. Back to the original point, *REPAIR*. Leaded solder is just fine to repair RoHS gizmos. If you are just ASSuming all RoHS compliant components have tin coated leads, you are treading on extremely thin ice. Clueless Clare. I have stated that using leaded solder with RoHS compliant components is "not best practice" and can lead to product failures. Again, clueless. Repairing RoHS boards with leaded solder is, in fact, better than using lead free precisely because of the difference in temperatures and better wetting. I'm not saying you can't get away with it some or most of the time - I'm saying it is not correct, and it is wrong and dangerous to say it is "safe" or "proper" to solder RoHS compliant components with regular lead-based solders. Recommending it is not being responsible, without at least adding the possibilities of the "gotchas" which are well documented and recognized by the experts, and which I have provided cites for. Clueless Clare backpedals more. No backpdaling at all. Bull****. I said in the beginning you will often get away with it, but it is not the "recommended" way, it is not "best practice" and in some cases it WILL bite you. The subject was repair, Clueless Clare. In your case you have double checked and all your components are tin coated leads, so for you it will work. Some components are NOT tin coated, and those can cause problems. Exceedingly rare (never saw one). Some are gold flashed, which is peachy, too. A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. It sounds like these are contaminated. Any abrasive cleaning can damage the plating and could *easily* cause problems down the road. No problem with them 30 years later. I'm not too worried. |
#133
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:44:23 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote: A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. It sounds like these are contaminated. Any abrasive cleaning can damage the plating and could *easily* cause problems down the road. No problem with them 30 years later. I'm not too worried. Black coloured component leads?? Sure sounds like silver plating. Sulphur in the air tarnishes silver, making a very black coating. Removing the tarnish by abrading should make a reliable solder joint. |
#134
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
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#135
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:02:38 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 12/8/2010 5:47 PM, wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:44:23 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote: A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. It sounds like these are contaminated. Any abrasive cleaning can damage the plating and could *easily* cause problems down the road. No problem with them 30 years later. I'm not too worried. Black coloured component leads?? Sure sounds like silver plating. Sulphur in the air tarnishes silver, making a very black coating. Removing the tarnish by abrading should make a reliable solder joint. Actually it does look like silver... oxide? I've been told that it is a great electrical conductor, but not great to solder to. Do you know if the black stuff does really make a better conductor for something like a switch? The black tarnish is Silver Sulfide, which is almost as conductive as metallic silver. Silver oxide, while still a conductor isn't nearly as good. Scraping it isn't a good idea because it can reveal the metals below. I doubt that it's silver sulfide, though, because it still should solder well. It's likely a tin-lead coating that's oxidized. You probably didn't scrape through it, if that's what it is. |
#136
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:02:38 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote: On 12/8/2010 5:47 PM, wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:44:23 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote: A few weeks ago I installed a couple of 35 amp bridge rectifiers. The leads were, as they often are, blackish colored and do not tin very well. Seems they always come that way, even from different distributors. They always get hand cleaned with the same brass wool I use for the soldering iron before being installed. It sounds like these are contaminated. Any abrasive cleaning can damage the plating and could *easily* cause problems down the road. No problem with them 30 years later. I'm not too worried. Black coloured component leads?? Sure sounds like silver plating. Sulphur in the air tarnishes silver, making a very black coating. Removing the tarnish by abrading should make a reliable solder joint. Actually it does look like silver... oxide? I've been told that it is a great electrical conductor, but not great to solder to. Do you know if the black stuff does really make a better conductor for something like a switch? No, it does not - and if my hunch is right they were not black when they left the factory. It is NOT silver Oxide - it is more like siver sulphide - Ag2S, or silver chloride. Both sulphur and chlorine will tarnish (blacken) silver very quickly. Sulphur will often also blacken tin - so it is possible you just have "tarnished" tin coating. Blackened tin is neither a good conductor or a suitable substrate for soldering. Tin can also de-zinc brass, which can cause blackening as well if tin coating is used on brass terminals without a copper or nickel strike plating as a barrier. I know Smitty is going to dissagree with me, but so be it. |
#137
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How Do You "TIN" a soldering iron?
On Dec 6, 9:46*pm, Tony Miklos wrote:
WALLAH! Just what the hell is "WALLAH" anyway? Wallah is Hindu for a "person", usually a servant. As in dobi wallah. One who washes clothes. Or an Arabic cuss-word. |
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