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Default Some electrical outlets not working

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?

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"al" wrote in message
...
Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?


It could be that you have an open neutral on an Edison circuit. Check to see
if the hot leg is good at the "dead" outlets. If so, look for a common
location outlet where the neutral splits off, possibly in a back stabbed
outlet.


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"al" wrote in message
...
Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?


Another possibility is that the dead outlets are controlled by wall switches


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On Nov 18, 7:03*am, "RBM" wrote:
"al" wrote in message

...

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. *Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. *They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. *I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. *Any idea what would cause this?


Another possibility is that the dead outlets are controlled by wall switches


None of the outlets is controlled by wall switches.

However, the lights on those affected locations just came on. I wish
I could say that I did something to make that happen, but I wasn't
doing anything but sitting reading the paper.
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"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 7:03 am, "RBM" wrote:
"al" wrote in message

...

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?


Another possibility is that the dead outlets are controlled by wall
switches


None of the outlets is controlled by wall switches.

However, the lights on those affected locations just came on. I wish
I could say that I did something to make that happen, but I wasn't
doing anything but sitting reading the paper.

Sounds like you have a loose connection somewhere in the circuit. I would
tap with the back of my hand on each of the affected outlets and see if the
tapping causes the lights to flicker or go out again. If it does, the
location where you tapped is where the loose connection is. One thing you
can be sure of, it will occur again.




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On Nov 18, 7:26*am, "RBM" wrote:
"al" wrote in message

...
On Nov 18, 7:03 am, "RBM" wrote:

"al" wrote in message


....


Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?


Another possibility is that the dead outlets are controlled by wall
switches


None of the outlets is controlled by wall switches.

However, the lights on those affected locations just came on. *I wish
I could say that I did something to make that happen, but I wasn't
doing anything but sitting reading the paper.

Sounds like you have a loose connection somewhere in the circuit. I would
tap with the back of my hand on each of the affected outlets and see if the
tapping causes the lights to flicker or go out again. If it does, the
location where you tapped is where the loose connection is. One thing you
can be sure of, it will occur again.


Also possible that one hot leg of his service is intermittent and he's
losing power to the circuits on that side.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

The case of the Mysterious Ghostly Backstabbed Outlets.
By A. Conan Doyle.

A couple friends of mine had that happen. They insisted
I didn't need to take "that" outlet apart, cause it worked
just fine. I had a hard time explaining.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

It can be a bad connection on the last outlet that works
(outgoing side)
Plug a radio with the volume all the way up in a non-working
outlet and bang on the ones nearby. When you hear the radio
squawk you found it.


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Nov 18, 11:05*pm, wrote:

You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


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"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:

You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.

Whole different story. It's not just a few outlets on different fuses. You
have a main leg out. It may be a defective main service breaker or a bad
connection anywhere from that point back to the utility company transformer


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"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:

You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.

Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? really? Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall, when
temperatures shift widely. Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.

This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up the
whole installation. Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. Way too little for modern life, IMHO.

The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is.

--
Bobby G.


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Nov 19, 5:26*am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 11:05*pm, wrote:

You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


And you mean they used to heat and now don't? And they are both are
electric appliances? The microwave is 110v so it does not count.

Typical houses are served from the outside by 2 hot wires and 1
neutral. 110v things like wall outlets and lighting are connected to
one or the other of the hot wires and the neutral. Big appliances
like electric dryers, electric hot water, use 220v and they get that
by being hooked to both hots.

When one of the two hots from outside stops working then some of the
110v circuits like lighst and outlets stop working. Also all the 220v
appliances stop working.

If your problems are gone now it may have been tha the power company
was working on something in your area and now it's fixed. It also may
be that you have a loose connection somewhere near the meter or fuse
box where the two hots come in.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Nov 19, 7:58*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 19, 5:26*am, al wrote:

On Nov 18, 11:05*pm, wrote:


You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


And you mean they used to heat and now don't? *And they are both are
electric appliances? *The microwave is 110v so it does not count.

Typical houses are served from the outside by 2 hot wires and 1
neutral. *110v things like wall outlets and lighting are connected to
one or the other of the hot wires and the neutral. *Big appliances
like electric dryers, electric hot water, use 220v and they get that
by being hooked to both hots.

When one of the two hots from outside stops working then some of the
110v circuits like lighst and outlets stop working. *Also all the 220v
appliances stop working.

If your problems are gone now it may have been tha the power company
was working on something in your area and now it's fixed. *It also may
be that you have a loose connection somewhere near the meter or fuse
box where the two hots come in.


Yes they used to work and now they don't. I hadn't checked the dryer
or the HW heater until I read the post inquiring about that last
night. Lights are also dimming periodically.

60 amp service was upgraded to 200 a few years ago with central A/C
install. Electric company inspected yesterday and ruled out their
equipment as the source of the problem. Said it is a "neutral"
problem. So I stopped tapping outlets and changing fuses and called a
contractor who will be here shortly to take a look.

Thanks for all the input.
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On Nov 18, 6:42*am, al wrote:
Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. *Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. *They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. *I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. *Any idea what would cause this?


Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:11:38 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article
,
jamesgangnc wrote:

Estimates for replacing a fuse box can go as high as $1000
so don't be shocked.


Was that a pun?

There is nothing unsafe about fuses and now that
you understand what happens when one o fthe mains goes you're really
covered at this point.


I agree that there isn't anything inherently unsafe about fuses, but not
everyone sees it that way. I bought a run-down house in another city a
few years back. I've actually never seen it, only pictures. In the
listing details, appearance was described as "poor." I didn't think I'd
be able to get financing, but my agent said I could get a "drive-by"
appraisal if I put 25% down on the house. Their were only two things
that needed to be verified:

1. The house existed.
2. The original equipment fusebox on the outside wall had been replaced
at some time by a breaker box.

(Here's a pic of the place my agent sent me in 2007, just before I
bought it

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/ahr1440.jpg

Is that little shack a duplex, or does it just have 2 front doors??
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32Â*am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42Â*am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Â*Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. Â*They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. Â*I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Â*Any idea what would cause this?


Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Â* Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. Â*I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Â*Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Â*Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Â*Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.


Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"

Don't raise alarms where none are warranted.
If the box and wiring are in reasonably good shape, and the load is
not over about 80% (70% is better) no problem.
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On Nov 19, 3:08*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 06:38:41 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
"al" wrote in message
....
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:


You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? *really? *Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. *My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall, when
temperatures shift widely. *Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.


This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. *I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up the
whole installation. *Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. *Way too little for modern life, IMHO.


The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. *You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. *At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is..


*Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.
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"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 3:08 pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 06:38:41 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:


You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? really? Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and

breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping

device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall,

when
temperatures shift widely. Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.


This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC

systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up

the
whole installation. Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. Way too little for modern life, IMHO.


The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using

them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is.


Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.

"It looks like a switch, so it *must* be a switch" is the attitude a lot of
people take when using a breaker as a switch but it's really not a good
idea.

--
Bobby G.




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On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:15:30 -0800 (PST), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Nov 19, 3:08Â*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 06:38:41 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:


You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? Â*really? Â*Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. Â*My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall, when
temperatures shift widely. Â*Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.


This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. Â*I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up the
whole installation. Â*Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. Â*Way too little for modern life, IMHO.


The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. Â*You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. Â*At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is.


Â*Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.

SOME breakers ARE rated to use as switches.
MANY industrial/commercial installations have no light switches - the
lighting circuits are controlled by the circuit breakers in the
sub-panels.
Breakers designed for this service are identified with a label reading
"swd" for "switch duty".
There are also "fld" breakers designed to SWITCH Flourescent lighting
loads.

A "swd" breaker for the hot water would be quite acceptable.

In the past HVAC units would use a "HACR" breaker. - but virtually all
normal breakers today pass the test for the old "hacr" standard - so a
"swd" breaker could be used for the AC too.

MOST GOOD breakers today are SWD, and many are also FLD
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On 11/19/2010 3:59 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:15:30 -0800 (PST), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Nov 19, 3:08 pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 06:38:41 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:

You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?

Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.

Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? really? Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall, when
temperatures shift widely. Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.

This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up the
whole installation. Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. Way too little for modern life, IMHO.

The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is.

Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.

SOME breakers ARE rated to use as switches.
MANY industrial/commercial installations have no light switches - the
lighting circuits are controlled by the circuit breakers in the
sub-panels.
Breakers designed for this service are identified with a label reading
"swd" for "switch duty".
There are also "fld" breakers designed to SWITCH Flourescent lighting
loads.

A "swd" breaker for the hot water would be quite acceptable.

In the past HVAC units would use a "HACR" breaker. - but virtually all
normal breakers today pass the test for the old "hacr" standard - so a
"swd" breaker could be used for the AC too.

MOST GOOD breakers today are SWD, and many are also FLD


You beat me to it. I've installed breaker panels in commercial and
industrial settings where the electrical designer specifies switch
rated breakers because that's where banks of lights are controlled.
Like a department store where row after row of lights are switched
once a day or never in case of a 24 hour business. What I'm seeing
now in a lot of retail outlets is the incorporation of remote controlled
switch banks connected to the company's computer network
so the main office can monitor and control lighting. It's a pretty
cool setup.

TDD
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On 11/19/2010 12:40 PM, Red Green wrote:
Smitty wrote in
news
In article
,
wrote:

Estimates for replacing a fuse box can go as high as $1000
so don't be shocked.


Was that a pun?

There is nothing unsafe about fuses and now that
you understand what happens when one o fthe mains goes you're really
covered at this point.


I agree that there isn't anything inherently unsafe about fuses, but
not everyone sees it that way. I bought a run-down house in another
city a few years back. I've actually never seen it, only pictures. In
the listing details, appearance was described as "poor." I didn't
think I'd be able to get financing, but my agent said I could get a
"drive-by" appraisal if I put 25% down on the house. Their were only
two things that needed to be verified:

1. The house existed.
2. The original equipment fusebox on the outside wall had been
replaced at some time by a breaker box.

(Here's a pic of the place my agent sent me in 2007, just before I
bought it

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/ahr1440.jpg


The only thing missing is an old woman sittin' in the chair with a
shotgun and a bloodhound at her side.


I heard banjo music when the page came up. 8-)

TDD
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On Nov 19, 2:12*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:11:38 -0800, Smitty Two





wrote:
In article
,
jamesgangnc wrote:


Estimates for replacing a fuse box can go as high as $1000
so don't be shocked.


Was that a pun?


There is nothing unsafe about fuses and now that
you understand what happens when one o fthe mains goes you're really
covered at this point.


I agree that there isn't anything inherently unsafe about fuses, but not
everyone sees it that way. I bought a run-down house in another city a
few years back. I've actually never seen it, only pictures. In the
listing details, appearance was described as "poor." I didn't think I'd
be able to get financing, but my agent said I could get a "drive-by"
appraisal if I put 25% down on the house. Their were only two things
that needed to be verified:


1. The house existed.
2. The original equipment fusebox on the outside wall had been replaced
at some time by a breaker box.


(Here's a pic of the place my agent sent me in 2007, just before I
bought it


http://members.cox.net/prestwich/ahr1440.jpg


*Is that little shack a duplex, or does it just have 2 front doors??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


With the color of the shack, there were probably two hispanic extended
families living there.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob)
"
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.

Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.

--
bud--


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 10:05:17 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.

I have seen many fuses "just fail" over the last 50 years, both
automotive and "mains". And like incandescent (filament) lamps, I've
seen them "mend" themselves temporarily - sometimes several times,
before final total failure.
An intermittent "failed" fuse can really be a bugger when
troubleshooting an intermittent electrical problem.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Nov 20, 11:05*am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:


On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:


Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. *Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. *They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. *I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still don't
work. *Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.


Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. * Replaced it and solved the
problem.


My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. *I just
checked the round screw in fuses. *Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. *Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.


Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. *Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.


Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

*Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.

--
bud--


Further investigation is going to be necessary, because last night I
did notice that lights were dimming, almost imperceptibly. And not
necessarily just the ones on the aforementioned affected outlets.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:50:26 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


I have seen many fuses "just fail" over the last 50 years, both
automotive and "mains". And like incandescent (filament) lamps, I've
seen them "mend" themselves temporarily - sometimes several times,
before final total failure.
An intermittent "failed" fuse can really be a bugger when
troubleshooting an intermittent electrical problem.


Failed fuses don't mend themselves. However, a common automotive failure
is intermittent connections behind the fusebox. Pulling and replacing a
fuse restores the connection, for a minute, day, or week.



I beg to differ. The fuses can arc weld themselves back together and
work for a while, then re-fracture. Depending on temperature changes
etc, this MAY happen more than once, but even once is a rare
occurrence. Rare, but it happens.

On most current automotive fuse boxes there are no "connections"
behind the fusebox that would be influenced by removing the fuse. -
and replacing the fuse invariably solves the problem - often for the
remaining life of the vehicle.

Same thing happens in fused distribution panels - both with plug
fuses (the round glass screw-in common fuse) and with cartridge fuses,
on occaision. Bump the fuse, or have the temperature go up a few
degrees, and the fuse makes contact again, allowing light loads to
operate. Sometimes they will "weld" themselves and not cause a problem
again for several days.
Looking at the fuse there is no sign that there is anything wrong -
but sometimes if you tap the fuse in the dark you will see a faint
blue arc inside the fuse body, and a light connected to the circuit
will either flicker off, or faintly flicker on..

In automotive systems., I have seen it much more often in the old
tubular fuses than it the ATO type - but I've seen it with an ATO as
well. Nothing like seeing the failure LED on an indicator type fuse
flicker randomly in the fusebox when you are trying to trace down an
intermittent electrical problem. Since most automotive fuses are NOT
indicator fuses, the cause is not often as obvious as the intermittent
radio problem on that car.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Nov 19, 12:40*pm, Red Green wrote:

snip

Their were only
two things that needed to be verified:


1. The house existed.
2. The original equipment fusebox on the outside wall had been
replaced at some time by a breaker box.


(Here's a pic of the place my agent sent me in 2007, just before I
bought it


snip


The only thing missing is an old woman sittin' in the chair with a
shotgun and a bloodhound at her side.


But wait...The other thing missing is the gas engine powered Maytag
washer that such an upscale mansion would have.

Joe


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Default Some electrical outlets not working


Robert Green wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 3:08 pm, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 06:38:41 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:05 pm, wrote:


You can break that tie real quick, does the dryer get hot (or some
other 240v appliance)?


Neither the dryer nor the hot water heater is heating and the
microwave is worthless.


Now it definitely sounds like a problem located somewhere between the
circuit panel (fuses? really? Where are you located?) and the utility
pole. My guess is that the connection to one of the hot bus bars is
intermittent and as the box heats and cools, the connection makes and

breaks
from the different expansion rates between the wire and the clamping

device.
I've found those sorts of failures appear often in the spring and fall,

when
temperatures shift widely. Could be as simple as knowing what screw to
twist.


This is where you have to evaluate your competence to work on 240VAC

systems
and decide whether it's time to call an electrician. I'd be hiring one to
install a circuit breaker panel if I were you, and probably to heavy up

the
whole installation. Last time I saw a fuse panel was in a house that had
only a 60A feeder. Way too little for modern life, IMHO.


The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from using

them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety capabilty of
the fuse. At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch is.


Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.

"It looks like a switch, so it *must* be a switch" is the attitude a lot of
people take when using a breaker as a switch but it's really not a good
idea.


A lot of circuit breakers are specifically rated for switching duty, and
it is very common in industrial facilities like warehouses for the
circuit breakers to double as the light switches.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still

don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?

Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.


Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


I don't know how you can say that without examining the fuse close up.
Sounds like it may have crumbled from excessive heating from carrying too
much of a load. Only a hands-on inspection will determine that, and it
would probably mean cutting open the fuse to determine the failure mode.

Don't raise alarms where none are warranted.


Jumpin I would say *exactly* the reverse is true when dealing a lethal
entity like 240VAC where a main fuse has failed and with so many other
unknowns. Not being concerned enough might lead to a similar set of
circumstances where a badly manufactured Chinese replacement fuse FAILS to
blow and there's a meltdown as a result. A blown fuse is a warning that
something's wrong. Assuming it's just a failed fuse and moving on seems to
be bordering on terribly careless. Each to his own, I guess.

FWIW, hearing about a fusebox in a home in this day and age raises an alarm
in my head that there's a potential overload situation. While fuse panels
of 200A certainly exist, every *residential* fuse panel I've ever seen in
the NE USA was a four banger with 15A screw-ins and a 60A total rating. I
realize that experience is terribly limited, but regardless, a blown main
fuse is not something to take lightly.

I don't know what the rules are up in the "Great White Way" or in other
parts of the US, but I assume one of the safety reasons for switching to
breakers is that they are much harder to override with pennies or aluminum
foil. Not sure what the NEC has to say about installing new 200A service
with screw-in fuses in the USA and I certainly know that my limited
experience does not even speak for the USA NE - just the houses whose panels
I have seen. All I know is when a fuse protecting an entire incoming phase
fails, an investigation is warranted to determine the cause. Assuming it's
simply a bad fuse is bad troubleshooting.

In this case, caution is especially called for because we just don't have
the information necessary from the OP to make a good call. We have no
information at all about the daily peak load he's putting on the panel,
either. We don't have a picture of the panel with the cover off, which can
often tell you what kind of workmanship is involved or if the wiring is
shoddy or deteriorating.

I recall seeing one poster here show us a picture of his circuit box with
all of the single wires laid out as neatly as the strings of a harp! I had
never seen and will probably never again see such incredibly precise work -
I wish I could remember the dude's name - when you see workmanship like
that, you can usually discount poor wiring - but I digress.

With all the unknowns, it seems far more prudent to raise a caution flag
than to give him the green light and say "bad fuse, replace and
fuggedaboutit." The part of this that really gives me pause is that he
reported that it's an intermittent fault. Yes, fuses, light bulbs and most
anything electrical can fail that way, but when a safety device fails, it's
far more serious than a light bulb failure. When the fuse protecting an
entire leg fails, I consider that especially serious because it can easily
indicate too much current is flowing through that leg, something that
individual circuit fuses will not catch.

If the box and wiring are in reasonably good shape, and the load is
not over about 80% (70% is better) no problem.


The truth is that we don't know a whit about either of those big IFS in this
case. We don't know how well the loads are balanced in the house - many
times one leg is bearing much more of the load than the other. That can be
simply plugging in space heaters into the "wrong" outlets. In a house with
a bigger circuit panel than the feeders dictate, that can happen easily.
I've seen more than one "heavy up" that didn't include an appropriate
upgrade from the feeder.

All we know here is that one leg of the incoming power lines had an
intermittent, not quite completely failed fuse. We know very little else.
(Since writing this, the OP has added a post indicating that he's got 200A
circuit panel but we don't know if it's really 200A service or a 200A box
sitting on 60A feeder lines.) With no ability to go onsite, we've got a
barrel full of IFs that raise the caution flag.

Yes, I agree with you that fuses do fail from inherent vice but IMHO *every*
fuse failure or circuit breaker pop warrants an investigation to find out
what popped it. In this case, I would be looking at the total KWh's used
monthly in relation to the size of the panel and also whether the panel was
properly balanced with each leg carrying as close to half the load as
possible. I'd turn everything in the house on and get out my tong meter to
see what branch circuits were carrying in terms of load. I'd visually
inspect the outside feeders to make sure they were sized for 200A and not 60
or 100.

IIRC, the panel should be sized so that even if every device in the house is
running, the main fuse won't blow. I am not sure that's the case here. We
also know fuses fail in multiple ways: in addition to failing
intermittently or "popping" correctly in an overload, they can also fail to
blow and thus not protect the wiring. That's an extremely hazardous
situation.

If the two fuses for each leg are of the same vintage, I would replace both
of them if I wasn't going to heavy up the panel and the load appeared to be
well-balanced. My best guess, from the limited facts we've been presented,
is that the load is too great for the panel and that one leg was carrying a
heavier share of the load than the other, causing the fuse on that leg to
deteriorate and partially fail.

But in reality, we don't even really know whether the fuse was bad.
Replacing a fuse in a loose fuse holder could jiggle bad electrical
connections just enough so that the intermittent disappears for a while. We
can't know that unless somebody actually checks the dead fuse with an
ohmmeter and carefully inspects the connections coming from the pole.

Running a cartridge fuse hot for a long enough time could easily cause
serious deterioration. If that leg's overloaded, simply replacing the fuse
could lead to tragedy, especially if the bad fuse is replaced with one that
doesn't operate at its rated load, but higher than rated. And before you
say that's unlikely, consider that you're the one saying we're dealing with
a bad fuse to begin with. (-: Who's to say, without an examination, whether
that intermittent fuse *should* have opened completely but didn't?

I've seen people ask very "shocking" questions, that indicate a lack of
knowledge about electrical work. My favorite is whether it's OK to use a
ground as a neutral. These kinds of comments lead me to almost always err
on the side of caution when giving advice on the net, especially with things
that have the lethality potential of possibly overloaded circuit panel.
There's almost *never* enough information given by the OP to make a clear
call. That's just the nature of Usenet.

In my limited experience, it's far too common for people to add circuits
without thinking about the total load. I'm partially guilty of that crime.
I've added the skinny "two in one" breakers to my house that have the
potential to overload the main fuse if I run every circuit to capacity. I
definitely should have heavied up the incoming feeders to meet code but I
added the new circuits not to draw more juice, but to replace the old cloth
covered circuits one-by-one with 12/2 romex w/ground and GFCI protection.

I left the all the old circuits in place because they serve porch and
overhead lights that would have required major demolition to replace. Now,
almost all the large loads like space heaters and window ACs run off 20A
grounded circuits. I've got sensors on the incoming feeders that connect to
my HomeVision controller to let me know the overall current draw on each
phase. I used that information to switch circuits around until they were
balanced, at least for the static large loads. I monitor it periodically to
ensure the loads have stayed balanced.

I have a lot more breakers than I should, but the overall load has not
changed - it's just been redistributed and rebalanced so each leg shares the
load as well as I could balance it. The only difference in the overall load
occurs at peak cooking times. One of the reasons for the rewire was to add
an XTB coupler/repeater/amp for my X-10 stuff, and more importantly, to be
able to use the microwave, the toaster oven and the refrigerator in this 70
year old house without blowing a breaker. That's not going to put a strain
on the main fuses for each incoming leg because the kitchen outlets are
served by different phases, a trick I learned right here in AHR.

Unfortunately, that's not the case in many other installations where there
are too many circuits drawing from one phase and overloading it. I don't
think replacing a fuse is going to get the OP off the hook. It could still
be something like a bad connection to the main feeder in the circuit panel
that's heating up and heating the fuse, too. Again, only an on-site
inspection will reveal things like that.

I hope the OP continues to post his progress in running the problem to
ground. (Electrical pun!) My money's on something other than the fuse being
defective. There's something rotten in Denmark (do we even know where the
OP lives, BTW?).

--
Bobby G.



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"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob)
"
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They

are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still

don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".


That's certainly my take on it, but there's always the possibility of
"inherent vice." If it were my problem, I'd be examining that fuse with a
both an ohm meter and a Dremel tool. I'd probably hook it up to an audible
continuity meter with sturdy spring-type battery clamps connected to each
end so I could shake it, pound it, put it in the freezer for a while and
heat with a heat gun to see what, if anything, allowed current to pass
before I sliced it open to see how cooked it was.

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.


That's a very good point. With the high possibility that the fuse holder
has metal parts with dissimilar coefficients of expansion, an intermittent
based on changing temperatures from a loose connection is a very likely
possibility, IMHO.

We had a disposal problem that only showed up in the spring and fall. It
would kick off, and then restart, usually when you jiggled the switch.
Turned out to be a bad backstab connection that flaked out every time it got
suddenly cold outside (the switch and outlet is was linked to were on an
outside north-facing wall). Since circuit panels are often located near
outside walls and are typically not well insulated, I believe as you do that
a loose connection to the fuse could be the real problem here. Especially
now that the OP has reported that the lights are still flickering. That's
no bad fuse, I'm afraid.

Hopefully the OP will keep us updated . . .

--
Bobby G.


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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:34:53 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob)
"
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They

are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still

don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.
Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".


That's certainly my take on it, but there's always the possibility of
"inherent vice." If it were my problem, I'd be examining that fuse with a
both an ohm meter and a Dremel tool. I'd probably hook it up to an audible
continuity meter with sturdy spring-type battery clamps connected to each
end so I could shake it, pound it, put it in the freezer for a while and
heat with a heat gun to see what, if anything, allowed current to pass
before I sliced it open to see how cooked it was.

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.


That's a very good point. With the high possibility that the fuse holder
has metal parts with dissimilar coefficients of expansion, an intermittent
based on changing temperatures from a loose connection is a very likely
possibility, IMHO.

We had a disposal problem that only showed up in the spring and fall. It
would kick off, and then restart, usually when you jiggled the switch.
Turned out to be a bad backstab connection that flaked out every time it got
suddenly cold outside (the switch and outlet is was linked to were on an
outside north-facing wall). Since circuit panels are often located near
outside walls and are typically not well insulated, I believe as you do that
a loose connection to the fuse could be the real problem here. Especially
now that the OP has reported that the lights are still flickering. That's
no bad fuse, I'm afraid.

Hopefully the OP will keep us updated . . .

In this case I'll have to agree. Replacing the fuse did not totally
solve the problem, so the fuse was a symptom, not the cause.
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:04:45 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:

Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still

don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?

Problem solved.

Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.

My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.

Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.

Thanks for all the input.

Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


I don't know how you can say that without examining the fuse close up.
Sounds like it may have crumbled from excessive heating from carrying too
much of a load. Only a hands-on inspection will determine that, and it
would probably mean cutting open the fuse to determine the failure mode.

Don't raise alarms where none are warranted.


Jumpin I would say *exactly* the reverse is true when dealing a lethal
entity like 240VAC where a main fuse has failed and with so many other
unknowns. Not being concerned enough might lead to a similar set of
circumstances where a badly manufactured Chinese replacement fuse FAILS to
blow and there's a meltdown as a result. A blown fuse is a warning that
something's wrong. Assuming it's just a failed fuse and moving on seems to
be bordering on terribly careless. Each to his own, I guess.

FWIW, hearing about a fusebox in a home in this day and age raises an alarm
in my head that there's a potential overload situation. While fuse panels
of 200A certainly exist, every *residential* fuse panel I've ever seen in
the NE USA was a four banger with 15A screw-ins and a 60A total rating. I
realize that experience is terribly limited, but regardless, a blown main
fuse is not something to take lightly.


You need a picture of mine? 22 circuits, one of which is a 30 amp 220
pullout, and the other is a 50 amp 220 pullout.
Installed in 1978 when the house was built.
It also has a fused disconnect for the central AC beside the panel

Other than the garage circuits, which I have blown numerous times with
table saw, compressor, and various other "tools of high demand"I've
only replaced 2 fuses in 29 years. One of which was DEFINITELY a
simple fuse failure, and the second almost definitely (a lighting only
circuit with less than 800 watts maximum load on a 15 amp fuse - which
has not blown for the second time in more than 8 years.) It was
cracked in the "blow zone", the crack not visible to the naked eye

The first fuse, which was intermittent, had failed where the fuse
element contacts the threaded shell. The solder didn't fail, so it was
not a loose or oveheated fuse - the fuse element just cracked, right
next to the soldered joint. If the lights or TV were on for a while
they'd start to flicker a bit, then go out. Turn them off for an hour
and turn them back on, and they'de work. Being wired with aluminum
wire, I checked every connection on the circuit before thinking to
replace the fuse. All outlets are now CO-ALR devices. Maximum load at
any time during the problem time was less than 300 watts. Max circuit
load in previous 15 years or so? Who knows, but in the 8 years I'd
owned the house not likely more than 1500 watts or so - back before we
got the central vac it had likely run the vacuum a few times. That
(replacement) fuse has been there now something like 10 or 12 years.


I don't know what the rules are up in the "Great White Way" or in other
parts of the US, but I assume one of the safety reasons for switching to
breakers is that they are much harder to override with pennies or aluminum
foil. Not sure what the NEC has to say about installing new 200A service
with screw-in fuses in the USA and I certainly know that my limited
experience does not even speak for the USA NE - just the houses whose panels
I have seen. All I know is when a fuse protecting an entire incoming phase
fails, an investigation is warranted to determine the cause. Assuming it's
simply a bad fuse is bad troubleshooting.

In this case, caution is especially called for because we just don't have
the information necessary from the OP to make a good call. We have no
information at all about the daily peak load he's putting on the panel,
either. We don't have a picture of the panel with the cover off, which can
often tell you what kind of workmanship is involved or if the wiring is
shoddy or deteriorating.

I recall seeing one poster here show us a picture of his circuit box with
all of the single wires laid out as neatly as the strings of a harp! I had
never seen and will probably never again see such incredibly precise work -
I wish I could remember the dude's name - when you see workmanship like
that, you can usually discount poor wiring - but I digress.


My panel looks about the same, as did virtually every panel my
electrician father ever installed.

With all the unknowns, it seems far more prudent to raise a caution flag
than to give him the green light and say "bad fuse, replace and
fuggedaboutit." The part of this that really gives me pause is that he
reported that it's an intermittent fault. Yes, fuses, light bulbs and most
anything electrical can fail that way, but when a safety device fails, it's
far more serious than a light bulb failure. When the fuse protecting an
entire leg fails, I consider that especially serious because it can easily
indicate too much current is flowing through that leg, something that
individual circuit fuses will not catch.


It is just as irresponsible to scare the guy into spending big bux to
replace what may be a perfectly safe and serviceable fuse panel

If the box and wiring are in reasonably good shape, and the load is
not over about 80% (70% is better) no problem.


The truth is that we don't know a whit about either of those big IFS in this
case. We don't know how well the loads are balanced in the house - many
times one leg is bearing much more of the load than the other. That can be
simply plugging in space heaters into the "wrong" outlets. In a house with
a bigger circuit panel than the feeders dictate, that can happen easily.
I've seen more than one "heavy up" that didn't include an appropriate
upgrade from the feeder.

All we know here is that one leg of the incoming power lines had an
intermittent, not quite completely failed fuse. We know very little else.
(Since writing this, the OP has added a post indicating that he's got 200A
circuit panel but we don't know if it's really 200A service or a 200A box
sitting on 60A feeder lines.) With no ability to go onsite, we've got a
barrel full of IFs that raise the caution flag.

Yes, I agree with you that fuses do fail from inherent vice but IMHO *every*
fuse failure or circuit breaker pop warrants an investigation to find out
what popped it. In this case, I would be looking at the total KWh's used
monthly in relation to the size of the panel and also whether the panel was
properly balanced with each leg carrying as close to half the load as
possible. I'd turn everything in the house on and get out my tong meter to
see what branch circuits were carrying in terms of load. I'd visually
inspect the outside feeders to make sure they were sized for 200A and not 60
or 100.

IIRC, the panel should be sized so that even if every device in the house is
running, the main fuse won't blow. I am not sure that's the case here. We
also know fuses fail in multiple ways: in addition to failing
intermittently or "popping" correctly in an overload, they can also fail to
blow and thus not protect the wiring. That's an extremely hazardous
situation.


Except in the case of cheap chinese automotive mini-fuses I've never
seen or had first-hand knowlege of a fuse failing to blow.
There was a whole batch of ATO fuses recalled by Princess Auto that
were made in China with the element made of too heavy a guage material
that would blow on a short circuit, but required over 300% of the
rated current, IIRC..

A properly operating fuse does not "blow" as soon as it's rated
current is reached. Generally a 25% overload should blow in less than
10 minutes. A 100% overload MAY take up to 4 or 5 minutes to blow the
fuse, and still be operating "correctly".

However, a BLOWN fuse, in my experience, is ALWAYS an open fuse, with
enough metal melted out of the element to be both obvious and
permanently disconnected.

A FAILED fuse, on the other hand, can be failed in such a way as to be
visibly impossible to detect, and intermittent.

In a cartrige main fuse, of course, it is impossible to visibly
inspect the fuse without dismantling it, although at least in years
past, there were some that quite visibly changed colour when blown -
and some had neon bulbs in them that glowed when the fuse was blown.

There was a line of pole fuses that also had the neon in them - the
hydro crew could tell immediately if the feeder fuse on the pole was
blown.

If the two fuses for each leg are of the same vintage, I would replace both
of them if I wasn't going to heavy up the panel and the load appeared to be
well-balanced. My best guess, from the limited facts we've been presented,
is that the load is too great for the panel and that one leg was carrying a
heavier share of the load than the other, causing the fuse on that leg to
deteriorate and partially fail.


Quite possible - even iff that leg was never over 50 or 60% capacity.
A good idea to check the load and load distribution? Most definitely.
But don't condemn the panel or the installation without checking it
first.

But in reality, we don't even really know whether the fuse was bad.
Replacing a fuse in a loose fuse holder could jiggle bad electrical
connections just enough so that the intermittent disappears for a while. We
can't know that unless somebody actually checks the dead fuse with an
ohmmeter and carefully inspects the connections coming from the pole.


It now appears he still has flickering lights, so there is most likely
a bad connection involved.

Running a cartridge fuse hot for a long enough time could easily cause
serious deterioration. If that leg's overloaded, simply replacing the fuse
could lead to tragedy, especially if the bad fuse is replaced with one that
doesn't operate at its rated load, but higher than rated. And before you
say that's unlikely, consider that you're the one saying we're dealing with
a bad fuse to begin with. (-: Who's to say, without an examination, whether
that intermittent fuse *should* have opened completely but didn't?

I've seen people ask very "shocking" questions, that indicate a lack of
knowledge about electrical work. My favorite is whether it's OK to use a
ground as a neutral. These kinds of comments lead me to almost always err
on the side of caution when giving advice on the net, especially with things
that have the lethality potential of possibly overloaded circuit panel.
There's almost *never* enough information given by the OP to make a clear
call. That's just the nature of Usenet.

In my limited experience, it's far too common for people to add circuits
without thinking about the total load. I'm partially guilty of that crime.
I've added the skinny "two in one" breakers to my house that have the
potential to overload the main fuse if I run every circuit to capacity. I
definitely should have heavied up the incoming feeders to meet code but I
added the new circuits not to draw more juice, but to replace the old cloth
covered circuits one-by-one with 12/2 romex w/ground and GFCI protection.


A whole lot more difficult to do and more unlikely with a fuse panel.

Not quite sure why the fuses with different sized cones, that did not
allow a heavier fuse to be installed than the socket was designed for,
never caught on. Likely because the American manufacturers took a
"not invented here" attitude. (I believe it was a Canadian inovation)

I left the all the old circuits in place because they serve porch and
overhead lights that would have required major demolition to replace. Now,
almost all the large loads like space heaters and window ACs run off 20A
grounded circuits. I've got sensors on the incoming feeders that connect to
my HomeVision controller to let me know the overall current draw on each
phase. I used that information to switch circuits around until they were
balanced, at least for the static large loads. I monitor it periodically to
ensure the loads have stayed balanced.

I have a lot more breakers than I should, but the overall load has not
changed - it's just been redistributed and rebalanced so each leg shares the
load as well as I could balance it. The only difference in the overall load
occurs at peak cooking times. One of the reasons for the rewire was to add
an XTB coupler/repeater/amp for my X-10 stuff, and more importantly, to be
able to use the microwave, the toaster oven and the refrigerator in this 70
year old house without blowing a breaker. That's not going to put a strain
on the main fuses for each incoming leg because the kitchen outlets are
served by different phases, a trick I learned right here in AHR.


Required by code in Canada - split countertop receptacles.
Unfortunately, that's not the case in many other installations where there
are too many circuits drawing from one phase and overloading it. I don't
think replacing a fuse is going to get the OP off the hook. It could still
be something like a bad connection to the main feeder in the circuit panel
that's heating up and heating the fuse, too. Again, only an on-site
inspection will reveal things like that.

I hope the OP continues to post his progress in running the problem to
ground. (Electrical pun!) My money's on something other than the fuse being
defective. There's something rotten in Denmark (do we even know where the
OP lives, BTW?).




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Default Some electrical outlets not working

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

stuff snipped

The only thing good about fuses is that they prevent people from

using
them
improperly as ON/OFF switches the way too many people do with circuit
breakers. You can, of course, unscrew the fuse if you want to use it

as a
switch, but that's not potentially destructive to the safety

capabilty of
the fuse. At least not the way using a circuit breaker as a switch

is.

Well, there were LOTS of 200 amp fuse panels installed, and I have a
100 amp fuse panel innmy house.
Fuses are a lot more reliable than breakers. Fewer "nuisance trips",
although fuses can fail from age/heat cycling/fatigue - and virtually
no chance of "sticking" and failing to trip when required. They are a
nuiscnae when they do blow - you need to have the right value fuse
within ready reach, and a flashlight next to the panel is always a
good idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


We rented a condo down in miami a few times and they left instructions
to flip the breakers on for the hot water and the hvac when you
arrived and flip them off when you left. I thought about telling them
that was going to bite them but most people really don't like
unsolicited advice.

"It looks like a switch, so it *must* be a switch" is the attitude a lot

of
people take when using a breaker as a switch but it's really not a good
idea.


A lot of circuit breakers are specifically rated for switching duty, and
it is very common in industrial facilities like warehouses for the
circuit breakers to double as the light switches.



Well, when I start posting in Alt.Industrial.Repair I'll keep that in mind.
(-:

I still think it's a bad idea for homeowners to use circuit breakers as
switches because of even the small possibility that they are using older
breakers that are not rated for switch duty.

Citing the existence of industrial breakers that can operate as switches
probably isn't helpful for the majority of homeowners, because it gives
someone who's probably got no way to determine whether his breaker is
switch-rated a potentially false sense of security. While technically
correct and even germane to the issue, I think its not quite right to
compare an industrial circuit panel to a consumer panel. Given that houses
often change owners quite a few times, it's likely the panel's original
receipts and manuals are long gone. I am sure no one wants to do the home
repair community a disservice by pointing out an exception that's mostly
related to commercial wiring and could be very dangerous in a non-industrial
setting.

I just looked at my 30+ year old breaker box and there are no external
markings indicating any of the breakers is switch-rated. I'm betting that
when I look through the pile of old breakers I pulled there will be no
indication whatsoever regarding "switch ratings." It's why I'll reiterate
that using a safety device as a control device is not a good thing to do.
I'll add a caveat that "unless you are sure it is switch rated." I will
also have to add that "The likelihood is that you'll actually have to pull
the breaker and confirm it by model number and manufacturer's specs or by
looking for the rating stamped somewhere on the device." That puts
likelihood of proper confirmation of the breaker rating way outside the
skill set of most condo renters who are told to "just flip the breaker."

Besides, I think it's *damn* good practice to actually *install* a switch if
you need a switch, and to keep people out of circuit boxes as a general
rule.

The bottom line is that it's probably NOT helpful to suggest that a person
switching off the AC or the water heater via a breaker in their rented condo
may be in the right because some industrial panels have breakers that can
and do serve as switches.

Breakers not rated for switch use edge closer to failure the more often they
are used as switches because they are subjected to wear they were not
designed to bear. I'm certain of this because when Dad retired from the
Navy's Material Science Division he went to work as a forensic engineer.
The annals of fire litigation are filled with failed breakers, stuck
Klixon's and any number of failed, bypassed or misused safety devices.

Somewhere I have pictures from his old cases about breakers and Klixon's
recovered from fire scenes that were part of the circuit that should have
tripped but didn't, leaving wires and electric furnace cores to overheat and
burn. While this was twenty years ago, I recall clearly safety experts
citing breakers being more likely to fail if they were also being used as
switches. It sounds like in recognition of this constant misuse of a safety
device that breaker makers changed their design to allow them to be used as
control devices.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/alsj-CBsVsSwitches.html

In August 2005, Journal Contributor Mike Polizsuk, who works for the U.S.
Navy as a civilian engineer, most recently for the Naval Air Systems Command
at Pax River in the Program Office for the F/A-18 Hornet fighter jet where
he was responsible for engineering oversight of the Hornet's structural and
mechanical systems, wrote:

One thing I note continuously throughout Apollo is the way they cycled
circuit breakers, often as a matter of routine operations. In my experience
with aircraft systems, circuit breakers are considered as protective devices
that should not be used as a switch to turn systems on and off. While it may
be acceptable for maintainers to open breakers to make a system safe for
maintenance, it is not standard practice for pilots to cycle breakers. We
would only put it into a checklist reluctantly, and only if no other way
exists to turn off a system. Since the circuit breaker plunger is held in
mechanically, repeatedly cycling it can wear it out. For a system or
component that is required to be turned on and off, a Power switch should be
used, with a circuit breaker also in the circuit for protection."

Amen.

--
Bobby G.


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

"al" wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 11:05 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:


On Nov 19, 8:32 am, al wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:42 am, al wrote:


Some of the outlets in my house stopped working. Outlets on
individual walls in different rooms work while others don't. They are
associated with different fuses, but the fuses are okay. I double
checked them by replacing them anyway and affected outlets still

don't
work. Any idea what would cause this?
Problem solved.


Contractor's estimator checked everything, double-checked the fuses
and discovered a main fuse that was bad. Replaced it and solved the
problem.


My all to obvious error was not checking the main fuses. I just
checked the round screw in fuses. Since moving in here, I've never
touched or even thought of touching those red cylindrical fuses. Now
those fuses aren't the only things that are red.


Anyway, the estimator said as some of you have that the fuse panel
should be replaced with a breaker panel and is preparing an estimate
for that job. Breakers are probably a better option for someone
susceptible to failing to explore all options before raising the alarm
anyway.


Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for your closure to this, we all learned something.

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


The lights may sometimes work because they are powered from the other
leg through a 220V load like a water heater.

I would not bet that the fuse "just failed".

A loose connection near the fuse can generate heat to blow the fuse at
lower than its rated current. With a loose connection you may see
flickering lights.

--
bud--


Further investigation is going to be necessary, because last night I
did notice that lights were dimming, almost imperceptibly. And not
necessarily just the ones on the aforementioned affected outlets.

I thought about this for a while and it's possibly that the flickering is
not just in your house, but on the whole local circuit. At night, the power
companies continuously adjust the system and you might be seeing the effects
of those adjustments. I say that based on the fact that all lights are
flickering, not just the one on the bad fuse circuit.

--
Bobby G.


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Default Some electrical outlets not working

wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:50:26 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


I have seen many fuses "just fail" over the last 50 years, both
automotive and "mains". And like incandescent (filament) lamps, I've
seen them "mend" themselves temporarily - sometimes several times,
before final total failure.
An intermittent "failed" fuse can really be a bugger when
troubleshooting an intermittent electrical problem.

Failed fuses don't mend themselves. However, a common automotive failure
is intermittent connections behind the fusebox. Pulling and replacing a
fuse restores the connection, for a minute, day, or week.



I beg to differ. The fuses can arc weld themselves back together and
work for a while, then re-fracture. Depending on temperature changes
etc, this MAY happen more than once, but even once is a rare
occurrence. Rare, but it happens.

On most current automotive fuse boxes there are no "connections"
behind the fusebox that would be influenced by removing the fuse. -
and replacing the fuse invariably solves the problem - often for the
remaining life of the vehicle.

Same thing happens in fused distribution panels - both with plug
fuses (the round glass screw-in common fuse) and with cartridge fuses,
on occaision. Bump the fuse, or have the temperature go up a few
degrees, and the fuse makes contact again, allowing light loads to
operate. Sometimes they will "weld" themselves and not cause a problem
again for several days.
Looking at the fuse there is no sign that there is anything wrong -
but sometimes if you tap the fuse in the dark you will see a faint
blue arc inside the fuse body, and a light connected to the circuit
will either flicker off, or faintly flicker on..


Maybe it happens in Canada. Very doubtful in the US.

Fuse elements on power systems burn a gap when they open. The fuse
elements are almost always quite rigid and can't vibrate back together.
I really don't think UL would like that behavior.

In many years in the industry I have not seen a fuse "just fail". Maybe
you could buy bootleg fuses from the US.

--
bud--
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Default Some electrical outlets not working

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 09:15:27 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:50:26 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:


I have seen many fuses "just fail" over the last 50 years, both
automotive and "mains". And like incandescent (filament) lamps, I've
seen them "mend" themselves temporarily - sometimes several times,
before final total failure.
An intermittent "failed" fuse can really be a bugger when
troubleshooting an intermittent electrical problem.
Failed fuses don't mend themselves. However, a common automotive failure
is intermittent connections behind the fusebox. Pulling and replacing a
fuse restores the connection, for a minute, day, or week.



I beg to differ. The fuses can arc weld themselves back together and
work for a while, then re-fracture. Depending on temperature changes
etc, this MAY happen more than once, but even once is a rare
occurrence. Rare, but it happens.

On most current automotive fuse boxes there are no "connections"
behind the fusebox that would be influenced by removing the fuse. -
and replacing the fuse invariably solves the problem - often for the
remaining life of the vehicle.

Same thing happens in fused distribution panels - both with plug
fuses (the round glass screw-in common fuse) and with cartridge fuses,
on occaision. Bump the fuse, or have the temperature go up a few
degrees, and the fuse makes contact again, allowing light loads to
operate. Sometimes they will "weld" themselves and not cause a problem
again for several days.
Looking at the fuse there is no sign that there is anything wrong -
but sometimes if you tap the fuse in the dark you will see a faint
blue arc inside the fuse body, and a light connected to the circuit
will either flicker off, or faintly flicker on..


Maybe it happens in Canada. Very doubtful in the US.


Dang fuses were "made in USA" And they don't know if they are in
Detroit or Windsor. The fuse may fracture when cooling off with no
load - "the light worked last time I tried it" - no arcing, no
melting, no sign of failure.
Fuse elements on power systems burn a gap when they open. The fuse
elements are almost always quite rigid and can't vibrate back together.
I really don't think UL would like that behavior.


They burn a gap when they "blow" Rigidity of the fuse element causes
fatigue from repeated cycling.- right at the soldered joint to the
shell.

As far as the UL is concerned, they don't really care because it is
NOT a safety issue. Can't cause a fire or any other damage

In many years in the industry I have not seen a fuse "just fail". Maybe
you could buy bootleg fuses from the US.


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wrote in message

stuff snipped

Fuses fail from age/temp cycling. Since the lights SOMETIMES worked,
the fuse was not blown due to a short or overload - the fuse just
"failed"


I don't know how you can say that without examining the fuse close up.
Sounds like it may have crumbled from excessive heating from carrying too
much of a load. Only a hands-on inspection will determine that, and it
would probably mean cutting open the fuse to determine the failure mode.

Don't raise alarms where none are warranted.


I would say *exactly* the reverse is true when dealing a lethal
entity like 240VAC where a main fuse has failed and with so many other
unknowns. Not being concerned enough might lead to a similar set of
circumstances where a badly manufactured Chinese replacement fuse FAILS

to
blow and there's a meltdown as a result. A blown fuse is a warning that
something's wrong. Assuming it's just a failed fuse and moving on seems

to
be bordering on terribly careless. Each to his own, I guess.

FWIW, hearing about a fusebox in a home in this day and age raises an

alarm
in my head that there's a potential overload situation. While fuse

panels
of 200A certainly exist, every *residential* fuse panel I've ever seen in
the NE USA was a four banger with 15A screw-ins and a 60A total rating. I
realize that experience is terribly limited, but regardless, a blown main
fuse is not something to take lightly.


You need a picture of mine? 22 circuits, one of which is a 30 amp 220
pullout, and the other is a 50 amp 220 pullout.
Installed in 1978 when the house was built.


But bro, you're a *Canadian* (-: They've always done things a little
differently. I don't doubt you have a fuse panel, but that doesn't change
my experience, which is that fuse panels in the US are typically associated
with 60A service and most houses that I have seen that have changed hands
even once have had those panels upgraded to get approval for a loan or to be
considered insurable.

This site says:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

Many jurisdictions, particularly in Canada, no longer permit
fuse panels in new installations. The NEC does permit new
fuse panels in some rare circumstances (requiring the special
inserts to "key" the fuseholder to specific size fuses)

So while you and others may have them, fuse panels are definitely on their
way OUT.

That site also goes on to say:

Fuses are prone to explode under extremely high overload. When
a fuse explodes, the metallic vapor cloud becomes a conducting
path. Result? From complete meltdown of the electrical panel,
melted service wiring, through fires in the electrical
distribution transformer and having your house burn down.
[This author has seen it happen.] Breakers won't do this.

Other than the garage circuits, which I have blown numerous times with
table saw, compressor, and various other "tools of high demand"I've
only replaced 2 fuses in 29 years. One of which was DEFINITELY a
simple fuse failure, and the second almost definitely (a lighting only
circuit with less than 800 watts maximum load on a 15 amp fuse - which
has not blown for the second time in more than 8 years.) It was
cracked in the "blow zone", the crack not visible to the naked eye

The first fuse, which was intermittent, had failed where the fuse
element contacts the threaded shell. The solder didn't fail, so it was
not a loose or oveheated fuse - the fuse element just cracked, right
next to the soldered joint. If the lights or TV were on for a while
they'd start to flicker a bit, then go out. Turn them off for an hour
and turn them back on, and they'de work. Being wired with aluminum
wire, I checked every connection on the circuit before thinking to
replace the fuse. All outlets are now CO-ALR devices. Maximum load at
any time during the problem time was less than 300 watts. Max circuit
load in previous 15 years or so? Who knows, but in the 8 years I'd
owned the house not likely more than 1500 watts or so - back before we
got the central vac it had likely run the vacuum a few times. That
(replacement) fuse has been there now something like 10 or 12 years.


Gack! You've got TWO items that are no longer considered codeworthy.
Aluminum wire and perhaps the last fuse panel installed in Canada. (-:

I don't know what the rules are up in the "Great White Way" or in other
parts of the US, but I assume one of the safety reasons for switching to
breakers is that they are much harder to override with pennies or

aluminum
foil. Not sure what the NEC has to say about installing new 200A service
with screw-in fuses in the USA and I certainly know that my limited
experience does not even speak for the USA NE - just the houses whose

panels
I have seen. All I know is when a fuse protecting an entire incoming

phase
fails, an investigation is warranted to determine the cause. Assuming

it's
simply a bad fuse is bad troubleshooting.

In this case, caution is especially called for because we just don't have
the information necessary from the OP to make a good call. We have no
information at all about the daily peak load he's putting on the panel,
either. We don't have a picture of the panel with the cover off, which

can
often tell you what kind of workmanship is involved or if the wiring is
shoddy or deteriorating.

I recall seeing one poster here show us a picture of his circuit box with
all of the single wires laid out as neatly as the strings of a harp! I

had
never seen and will probably never again see such incredibly precise

work -
I wish I could remember the dude's name - when you see workmanship like
that, you can usually discount poor wiring - but I digress.


My panel looks about the same, as did virtually every panel my
electrician father ever installed.


I don't doubt that, but most panels I've looked into don't.

With all the unknowns, it seems far more prudent to raise a caution flag
than to give him the green light and say "bad fuse, replace and
fuggedaboutit." The part of this that really gives me pause is that he
reported that it's an intermittent fault. Yes, fuses, light bulbs and

most
anything electrical can fail that way, but when a safety device fails,

it's
far more serious than a light bulb failure. When the fuse protecting an
entire leg fails, I consider that especially serious because it can

easily
indicate too much current is flowing through that leg, something that
individual circuit fuses will not catch.


It is just as irresponsible to scare the guy into spending big bux to
replace what may be a perfectly safe and serviceable fuse panel


No, I don't think so. If fuse panels were as safe and reliable as you've
been portraying them, then why aren't they allowed in new service? It's
because they have serious safety issues compared to breaker panels. "Safe
and serviceable" is hard to evaluate without seeing the box but we already
have good reason to believe there's something very wrong with it since a new
fuse didn't cure the flickering.

I also base my comments on the fact that I've never seen a screw in fuse
panel in all the new homes I've every looked at and I bought my first house
in 1984 and my parents bought several houses before that. The NEC decided
against fuses, and I'll bet those reasons are safety related. I assume the
primary reason is that fuses are too easy to bypass with higher-than-proper
rated fuses, pennies or foil. I assume a secondary reason is that when they
are unscrewed you can get shocked a lot more easily than when a breaker
trips. A tripped breaker has no potential exposure to electrical current.
More reasons? Fuses may not be screwed in completely and thus make
intermittent contact.

If the box and wiring are in reasonably good shape, and the load is
not over about 80% (70% is better) no problem.


We know none of those things. Another site says this about fuse panels and
why they've disappeared from new home wiring:

Old style distribution panels, those with screw-in fuses are generally
considered fire hazards. The contact between the base of the fuse and the
buss bar oxidizes or charcoals from poor contact. In order for the current
to continue to flow heat is generated. In many areas, insurance companies
will not renew homeowner insurance if the home is equipped with an
electrical distribution panel that has screw-in fuses. . . .Electrical
panels typically last 20-25 years. Sure signs of a failure in your
electrical panel are flickering lights and excess heat at the circuit
breakers.

Well, our OP certainly has experienced the flickering lights part.

Source: http://www.allstarelectric.us/electr...lupgrades.html

The truth is that we don't know a whit about either of those big IFS in

this
case. We don't know how well the loads are balanced in the house - many
times one leg is bearing much more of the load than the other. That can

be
simply plugging in space heaters into the "wrong" outlets. In a house

with
a bigger circuit panel than the feeders dictate, that can happen easily.
I've seen more than one "heavy up" that didn't include an appropriate
upgrade from the feeder.

All we know here is that one leg of the incoming power lines had an
intermittent, not quite completely failed fuse. We know very little

else.
(Since writing this, the OP has added a post indicating that he's got

200A
circuit panel but we don't know if it's really 200A service or a 200A box
sitting on 60A feeder lines.) With no ability to go onsite, we've got a
barrel full of IFs that raise the caution flag.

Yes, I agree with you that fuses do fail from inherent vice but IMHO

*every*
fuse failure or circuit breaker pop warrants an investigation to find out
what popped it. In this case, I would be looking at the total KWh's used
monthly in relation to the size of the panel and also whether the panel

was
properly balanced with each leg carrying as close to half the load as
possible. I'd turn everything in the house on and get out my tong meter

to
see what branch circuits were carrying in terms of load. I'd visually
inspect the outside feeders to make sure they were sized for 200A and not

60
or 100.

IIRC, the panel should be sized so that even if every device in the

house is
running, the main fuse won't blow. I am not sure that's the case here.

We
also know fuses fail in multiple ways: in addition to failing

intermittently
or "popping" correctly in an overload, they can also fail to
blow and thus not protect the wiring. That's an extremely hazardous
situation.


Except in the case of cheap chinese automotive mini-fuses I've never
seen or had first-hand knowlege of a fuse failing to blow.


Well, explain why they're no longer going into new work if what those sites
are saying is true. The NEC wouldn't abandon a successful technology for
absolutely no reason, would they? (-:

As I am researching this, I keep seeing comments like this:

http://www.walleyecentral.com/forums.../t-152904.html

"I need to update the old screw-in fuse box on my cabin to modern breakers
per my insurance company. What should I expect to pay for a 100 amp service
upgrade? Wiring is modern 3-wire system, but for some reason, they never
upgraded the fuse box."

If the two fuses for each leg are of the same vintage, I would replace

both
of them if I wasn't going to heavy up the panel and the load appeared to

be
well-balanced. My best guess, from the limited facts we've been

presented,
is that the load is too great for the panel and that one leg was carrying

a
heavier share of the load than the other, causing the fuse on that leg to
deteriorate and partially fail.


Quite possible - even iff that leg was never over 50 or 60% capacity.
A good idea to check the load and load distribution? Most definitely.
But don't condemn the panel or the installation without checking it
first.


If the guy had flickering lights throughout the house, there's good evidence
the panel isn't working properly.

Not quite sure why the fuses with different sized cones, that did not
allow a heavier fuse to be installed than the socket was designed for,
never caught on. Likely because the American manufacturers took a
"not invented here" attitude. (I believe it was a Canadian inovation)


Those are Type S fuse receptacles that used different threads on each value
of fuse, making it impossible to substitute the wrong size. I had them in
this house when it had a 60A fuse panel. Different color fuses, too.

Since we're now six quotes in, we're just kicking the football around
now. It will be interesting to see what the final resolution of the problem
will be, but I am betting it's going to end in a panel upgrade.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/renti...use-boxes.html

says: "I've upgraded a number of panels from fuse to circuit breakers
because some Insurance Companies will no longer insure with fuses."

http://ezinearticles.com/?Upgrade-Yo...em!&id=2469061

"In California, if a home is equipped with an electrical distribution panel
that uses screw-in fuses, many insurance companies will not renew homeowner
insurance."

It really seems that I am not the only one who believes that fuse panels
should be replaced with breakers. Apparently the people that have to pay
out for electrical fires do, too.


--
Bobby G.


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