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-   -   Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen? (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/305091-can-welding-oxygen-used-place-medical-oxygen.html)

Some Guy June 19th 10 03:58 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Some Guy June 19th 10 04:32 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
BQ340 wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc,
that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous)
for helping to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack
mine are.


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air". And what
I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us right now.

Yes?

Tom Horne[_4_] June 19th 10 05:07 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Jun 18, 10:32*pm, Some Guy wrote:
BQ340 wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc,
that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous)
for helping to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack
mine are.


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air". *And what
I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us right now.

Yes?


To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen. Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.
The inert components of air are removed from the compressed oxygen
that is used for patient breathing assistance and making ordinary
metals burn and melt together into a single piece of metal.
--
Tom Horne

Harry K June 19th 10 05:22 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Jun 18, 6:58*pm, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

Harry K

AZ Nomad[_2_] June 19th 10 05:32 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:17:27 -0400, BQ340 wrote:
On 6/18/2010 9:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack mine
are.


They *can* be the same depending on the store. Welding grade isn't safe
for medical use. Stores often stock only medical grade instead of
maintaining multiple grades.

Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 05:37 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

"Some Guy" wrote in message ...
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain purity,
welding does not. You pay for that test and the potential liability that
goes along with it.


Some Guy June 19th 10 05:53 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.

Yes?


To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.


And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.


And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Harry K wrote:

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.

The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.

And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.

Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-**** and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.

The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Some Guy June 19th 10 05:56 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
AZ Nomad wrote:

They *can* be the same depending on the store. Welding grade isn't
safe for medical use.


Are you aware of any impurities that are present in the generation of
bulk O2 that are specifically removed when "medical" grade O2 is
created?

Stores often stock only medical grade instead of maintaining
multiple grades.


Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?

You people might want to read this:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

Some Guy June 19th 10 06:04 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.


How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?

Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.


I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen). The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 06:47 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

"Some Guy" wrote in message ...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.


How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?

Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?



The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.



Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.


I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).


That is what I just said above.


The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.


It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.




Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 01:46 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

wrote

I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.


That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
filled.

Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
the other gas and contaminated.



Kurt Ullman June 19th 10 01:51 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
In article , Some Guy wrote:


Harry K wrote:

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.


FWIW, all oxygen is too dry for extended period use. That is why they
run it through the little bottle thingy first in medical uses.
Also, if you believe in eHow.com
http://www.ehow.com/about_6370762_me...ng-oxygen.html
Another aside, so although O2 USP has the same basic source as
industrial gases, it's specified., handled, distributed and tracked
differently. O2 USP has FDA mandated lot numbers to facilitate product
recalls. These lot numbers are tracked all the way to the patient.


The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.


Which means that the Plaintiff lawyers play a far larger role,
since most of the insurance company's concerns has to do with keeping
the PL out of their pocket.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

Kurt Ullman June 19th 10 02:01 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
In article , Some Guy wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.


How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?

Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

No, but other gasses can be introduced. Even the compressors for the
regular air firefighters have to be carefully maintained. Oils, etc.,
can be introduced that cause failure of the seals. There are many things
that can go wrong, although that is more of a conern with how the tank
is filled.




I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen). The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

At least for medical oxygen you pay more because the tests and
tracking requirements of medical oxygen is more expensive. These are
additional processing steps (at least the testing and certification).
The O2 is probably not more expensive, but the medical part is.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

LSMFT June 19th 10 02:19 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Some Guy wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.

Yes?


To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.


And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.


And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Harry K wrote:

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.

The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.

And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.

Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-**** and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.

The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.


Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?



--
LSMFT

I haven't spoken to my wife in 18 months.
I don't like to interrupt her.

Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 02:31 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

"LSMFT" wrote

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?



Oxygen concentrators remove the nitrogen and leave you with about 93%
oxygen. It has no pressure though, and it would still have to be
pressurized to about 10 psi to work for welding. Probably not impossible,
just not practical.



George June 19th 10 02:33 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/18/2010 10:17 PM, BQ340 wrote:
On 6/18/2010 9:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack mine
are.

MikeB


Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs other
tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated to insure
there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

Doug Miller June 19th 10 02:34 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
In article , LSMFT wrote:

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?


I imagine because it can't supply oxygen at the rate required for welding.

Frank[_13_] June 19th 10 02:37 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/19/2010 8:19 AM, LSMFT wrote:
Some Guy wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.

Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.


And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.


And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Harry K wrote:

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.

The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.

And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.

Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-**** and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.

The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.


Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?



I see a lot of people getting these machines:

http://www.vitalitymedical.com/Catal...ors-1163-.html

I would imagine there are concentrators available for welding.

As for original question, industrial oxygen should be suitable for
breathing. All compressed oxygen must be free of impurities like oil
because of potential for explosion.


Steve Barker[_6_] June 19th 10 02:40 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


it's the same.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

HeyBub[_3_] June 19th 10 02:52 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
LSMFT wrote:

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen
from the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?


Large scale O2 generation involves cooling air to liquify it, then pulling
off the components: Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Argon, etc.

You CAN get Oxygen by electrolysis of water (plus Hydrogen), but the energy
expenditure is horrendous.

Certainly O2 generators can be powered by chemical means; the Oxygen masks
on airliners rely on chemical release of O2 by the burning of chlorates or
perchlorates.

All that said, you can get O2 generators for small applications (bedside,
veterinary, etc.) use, up to, and including, institutional generation, say,
for hospitals.

To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.



Jim Elbrecht June 19th 10 02:54 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


"LSMFT" wrote

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?



Oxygen concentrators remove the nitrogen and leave you with about 93%
oxygen. It has no pressure though, and it would still have to be
pressurized to about 10 psi to work for welding. Probably not impossible,
just not practical.


Though real popular with folks who melt glass with smallish torches- a
20pound LP tank and an O2 concentrator is a real popular setup.

Went to find a link for details and found this site-
http://www.sundanceglass.com/oxygen-concentrator.htm

I guess you can get one for large torches now-- advertised up to
20psi & 15LPM. [and up to $3500]

I noticed my m-i-l has an attachment on her [medical] O2 that lets her
fill a small tank. I don't know what the pressure is-- and I also see
that she still rents the big tanks, so it can't be too efficient.

Jim

Doug Miller June 19th 10 03:01 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
In article ,
Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

AZ Nomad[_2_] June 19th 10 03:25 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:40:35 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


it's the same.


no it isn't

Jay Hanig[_3_] June 19th 10 03:33 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/18/2010 11:56 PM, Some Guy wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?

You people might want to read this:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html




*That* was a great article. The writer has great credibility to my
mind, as I am a registered nurse, former scuba instructor, and former
commercial pilot. I thought I knew a lot about oxygen. It turns out I
wasn't as well informed as I had assumed.

You guys really need to read this if you're interested in compressed
oxygen in any form.



Jay


Harry K June 19th 10 04:43 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Jun 18, 9:47*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Some Guy" wrote in ....
Ed Pawlowski wrote:


Certification. *Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.


How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?


Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?


The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. *It is 99.xxx% pure. *That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. * *I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.



Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?


You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.


I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).


That is what I just said above.

The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.


It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. *O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. *Rare, but it
has happened. * Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it. *If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same. *That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.


One must differentiate between the "oxygen" tanks (that contain pure
oxygen) and the tanks used in the breathing apparatuses - those
contain just compressed air with the usual nitrogen, co2, etc. still
in it. The 'grab a tank off the back of a truck" implies tanks for
the SCBAs - air, not oxygen.

Harry K

dpb June 19th 10 04:48 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Some Guy wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


....


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

....

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. ...


The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes out
of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes and hasn't
been contaminated since that point?

The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just taking
the next random welding bottle returned from who knows where...errr, not
so much. As someone else pointed out, you don't know what was done with
those bottles previously nor what has been done since w/o the
certification--that's the role it plays.

As for cost; it's a lot like the "N-stamp" nuclear-grade
components--many of them are, in fact, identical to their non-graded
cousins but they've been through the qualifications to prove their
pedigree; the poor red-headed stepchild _may_ be just as good but
doesn't have the papers to prove it.

--


--

Frank[_13_] June 19th 10 04:49 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/19/2010 8:52 AM, HeyBub wrote:
LSMFT wrote:

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen
from the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?


Large scale O2 generation involves cooling air to liquify it, then pulling
off the components: Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Argon, etc.

You CAN get Oxygen by electrolysis of water (plus Hydrogen), but the energy
expenditure is horrendous.

Certainly O2 generators can be powered by chemical means; the Oxygen masks
on airliners rely on chemical release of O2 by the burning of chlorates or
perchlorates.

All that said, you can get O2 generators for small applications (bedside,
veterinary, etc.) use, up to, and including, institutional generation, say,
for hospitals.

To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.


The concentrators work by reverse osmosis. You can travel with them and
use rechargeable batteries. If you are home, immobile, the medical
supplier will often give you liquid and tubing is strung around the
house. For short trips of a few hours, you can take liquid. You hire a
supplier and it is up to him to satisfy all your requirements, tank,
liquid or concentrator.

Jim Yanik June 19th 10 05:52 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Some Guy wrote in :

Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.

Yes?


To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.


And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".


it's "way less" because for a given volume of gas,you get only ONE
element;oxygen,while "air" also gives you
nitrogen,argon,helium,krypton,xenon.
Not that they have any benefit,but it's "more" than what you get with pure
O2. ;-)


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 08:06 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

wrote

If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.



Not only have I looked at the back of the hospital, I've hooked up the
bottles. I've also filled thousands of bottles for medical use. Every one
has a tag with the purity listed and usually a traceability batch number.
Oxygen is oxygen, but unless it has proper certification, it is not for
medical use.

The content may be the same, but the paperwork is not. Without the proper
paperwork, it is not medical grade.


jeff_wisnia[_2_] June 19th 10 08:32 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:46:10 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote

I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.


That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
filled.

Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
the other gas and contaminated.



If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.
It is more expensive to have 2 types of oxygen at the welding store
than to just have one.
They have to watch contaminants, just for safety. In the presence of
pure oxygen, lots of things you think are pretty safe, become
explosive. Try some steel wool.


Fine steel wool will burn pretty darn well in air too.

About 25 years ago one of my toddlers managed to touch some fine steel
wool across the terminals of a 9 volt "transistor radio" battery which
set the steel wool ablaze. The kid wasn't harmed, but I had to replace a
kitchen floor vinyl tile. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

Some Guy June 19th 10 08:55 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
HeyBub wrote:

To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.


The question was not if bottled O2 is cheaper than the alternatives.

The question was - are all forms or labels of bottled O2 essentially
equivalent.

Some Guy June 19th 10 09:13 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
dpb wrote:

The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes
out of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes
and hasn't been contaminated since that point?


I presume that the first time that any brand-new O2 bottle is filled
with it's first batch of O2, that it has been cleaned and vacuum
evacuated first.

After that point, unless the air pressure in that tank ever falls below
ambient atmospheric pressure, it's hard to see how anything other than
pure O2 could ever re-enter it - even if it was ever connected to a
manifold system where other bottles of similarly-clean O2 are also
connected.

The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just
taking the next random welding bottle returned from who knows
where...errr, not so much.


I understand that I can buy, or rent, oxy-acetelene tanks. If I buy,
I'm not sure if I can have my bought-tank re-filled and returned to me,
or if I simply exchange it for filled (but used) tank.

If I buy a brand new tank, and if I keep refilling that same tank when I
need more, then I am removing the uncertainty of what could have been in
the tank before it was filled.

And when it comes to refilling returned tanks, is it normal practice to
at least let the tank fully depressurize itself before it's refilled?
Wouldn't that dillute any potential non-oxygen gas or even particulate
contaminent that it *may* have once the tank has been refilled with
known-pure O2?

Some Guy June 19th 10 09:16 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
George wrote:

Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.


How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?

If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?

If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?

Some Guy June 19th 10 09:22 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
Kurt Ullman wrote:

Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?


No, but other gasses can be introduced. Even the compressors for
the regular air firefighters have to be carefully maintained. Oils,
etc., can be introduced that cause failure of the seals.


Do compressed air suppliers have different compressors for filling
different O2 bottles from their bulk LOX source supply?

Hasn't it already been mentioned that even welding O2 gas needs to be
just as clean as medical-grade O2?

At least for medical oxygen you pay more because the tests and
tracking requirements of medical oxygen is more expensive.


I'm not convinced that there are any such tests.

Paperwork and barcode scanning? Yes, sure. I can see that. But unless
someone posts something indicating that such "testing" is done, then I
think it's pure speculation that there is this testing step.

These are additional processing steps (at least the
testing and certification).


Testing is the same as certification. So what are these additional
processing steps beyond testing?

Do you work at a compressed air supply company?

Steve Barker[_6_] June 19th 10 10:15 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/19/2010 7:19 AM, LSMFT wrote:
Some Guy wrote:
Tom Horne wrote:

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)


And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.

Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.


And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.


And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Harry K wrote:

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).


From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.

The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.

And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.

Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-**** and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.

The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.


Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?



they can and do. Most Midas muffler shops make (concentrate) their own
o2 for the oxy/acy setup.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Steve Barker[_6_] June 19th 10 10:17 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On 6/19/2010 8:01 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleSK2dnRfBjvQiJ4HRnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews. com,
Steve wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?


it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.


i read the responses. It's the same.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Ed Pawlowski[_2_] June 19th 10 10:23 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 

"Some Guy" wrote in message ...
George wrote:

Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.


How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?

If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?

If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?


Temperature changes. If you have an open tank and let the gas inside
expand, then contract, it will draw in outside air, moisture, or whatever.
Leave that tank long enough and you can get all sorts of contamination, not
all of which is harmful, but it would still not meet medical criteria.


AZ Nomad[_2_] June 19th 10 10:48 PM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:17:04 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/19/2010 8:01 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleSK2dnRfBjvQiJ4HRnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews. com,
Steve wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.


i read the responses. It's the same.


It *can* be the same. However, oxygen graded for welding, but not
for medical use, isn't safe for medical use.

Wether or not a store sells medical grade oxygen to welders is up
to the store and not universally true.

Doug Miller June 20th 10 12:08 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
In article , Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/19/2010 8:01 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleSK2dnRfBjvQiJ4HRnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews. com,
Steve wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.


i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

Jim Yanik June 20th 10 01:39 AM

Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
 
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article , Steve
Barker wrote:
On 6/19/2010 8:01 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articleSK2dnRfBjvQiJ4HRnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@giganews. com,
Steve wrote:
On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous
impurities, etc, that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or
even dangerous) for helping to supplement breathing / respiration
?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from
people who actually know the difference.


i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?


the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.

did you not read the article cited? it was very informative.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


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