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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

On May 6, 8:43�am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. �I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. �WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. �I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. �Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. �Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. �I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


It helps to drain away any water that may accumulate. In cold climates
this can cause frost heave.
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On May 6, 3:43�am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. �I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. �WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. �I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. �Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. �Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. �I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


I agree with the others, to drain any water that may accumulate under
the pad and possibly freeze in the winter. If you live in a warm
climate, not so much of a problem.

Since I live where it can get to 25 below, I usually will drop the pad
down about an inch from the garage floor for 2 reasons. 1. The
concrete will rise in cold temps. 2. To keep any water from entering
the garage.

Hank
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On May 6, 12:43*am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. *I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. *WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. *I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. *Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. *Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. *I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


Gravel doesn't exactly make the underlying soil more water permeable.
What it does is allow airspace (at least for a while) between rocks
which permits water to flow through the gravel layer and get access to
a larger surface area of soil.

Without gravel, the soil near the center of the slab stays dry, while
the soil near the periphery gets soaked. With the gravel layer, there
is a slightly more even distribution of soaking.


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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?


wrote in message
...
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in
front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who
came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under
the
concrete. WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized
rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save
all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to
clean
them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms,
goes in
there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some
rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had
any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting
in
winter.



All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab
permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the
slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent
thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and
thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost
situation and will not crack as readily under loading.

By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes
much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and
level when the inevitable happens.

--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..


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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in
front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who
came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under
the
concrete. WHY?

I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized
rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save
all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to
clean
them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms,
goes in
there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some
rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had
any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting
in
winter.



All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab
permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the
slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent
thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and
thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost
situation and will not crack as readily under loading.

By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes
much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and
level when the inevitable happens.



It also keeps the organics out of the "ground layer" of concrete.
Organics from soil contact can reduce concrete strength.(somewhat).
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On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:


All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab
permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the
slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent
thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and
thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost
situation and will not crack as readily under loading.

By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes
much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and
level when the inevitable happens.


I appreciate everyone's answers. You lost me on the WWM. What's
that?

Thanks
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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

On May 6, 10:38*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:

All the answers you got were good ones. *The gravel under a slab
permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the
slab. *It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent
thin/thick areas in the slab. *The side benefit of water and
thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost
situation and will not crack as readily under loading.


By the way, don't forget to use WWM. *I don't think it contributes
much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and
level when the inevitable happens.


I appreciate everyone's answers. *You lost me on the WWM. *What's
that? *

Thanks


Welded Wire Mesh.
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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm
KenCon wrote:

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups wrote:




I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. WHY?


I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


I have poured concrete for 30 years now and can show you many places where
we never used gravel under the slabs and they look just as good as those
with gravel under them. Too many people watch Bob Villa.



-------------------------------------




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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:53:56 +0000, KenCon
wrote:

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm
KenCon wrote:

mister_friendly@the-newzgroups wrote:




I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front
of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came
to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the
concrete. WHY?


I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks
under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all
rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean
them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in
there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar,
which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any
problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in
winter.


I have poured concrete for 30 years now and can show you many places where
we never used gravel under the slabs and they look just as good as those
with gravel under them. Too many people watch Bob Villa.



-------------------------------------


Depends.

If you have good drainage and no frost, gravel is not required. If you
have good drainage and frost, you might get away without gravel. If
you have no frost and iffy drainage you might get away without gravel.
If you have poor drainage and get heavy frost, you likely will
experience problems.



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On 8/18/2011 9:28 PM, Home Guy wrote:
wrote:

If you have good drainage and no frost, gravel is not required.


(...)

Gravel is what you use when you want to move water away from a structure
and you want the water to flow passively and freely - aided by gravity.

Having a concrete pad sitting on gravel on a low spot of ground is not
doing the pad any good.

A concrete pad sitting on a high spot of ground will have a natural
tendency to dry out and gravel isin't needed.

In fact, I can't think of any reason why a pad would need gravel under
it.

In the case of foundations, you want any water that reaches the
foundation to flow easily down to it's base where (hopefully) it's
collected by a tile, pipe, etc. That's where the gravel helps.

If you pour a pad on top of gravel, and you don't put down a membrane to
separate the pad and the gravel, then what you end up with is a pad with
a very jagged, permeable bottom surface where repeated cycles of
freeze/thaw will eventually break up the concrete if any water reaches
the underside. What you want is a smooth bottom surface, which is
naturally impermeable to water infiltration and therefore resistant to
freeze-thaw dammage.



Gravel is the best capillary break possible under a slab floor. It is
even better if the gravel is capped with Perminator or other heavy mil
vapor barrier, but the gravel by itself will usually insure freedom from
vapor transmission problems. The gravel has little or no value for the
concrete itself. Each geographic area has a compactible select fill of
some type that is used under commercial slabs. Here it is red select
which is decomposed sandstone. It is fairly easy to generate Proctor
densities/ modified Proctors at 95% or higher.
Here's a good recipe for a strong well supported slab with best attempt
at preventing moisture problems:
Removal of loams and other organic soils and, in some cases, high
plastic index clays.
Proper compaction in six inch lifts of compactible fill to subgrade.
A six inch lift of 57 stone as a capillary break.
Heavy mill vapor barrier.
Concrete with Water/Cement ratio below 50, using plasticiser if necessary.
Proper curing.

You've now done everything as best you can for slab and finish floor.


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On Fri, 07 May 2010 09:19:31 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

Whichever one of these you think fits the context:

http://www.abbreviations.com/WWM


Don't tell me. Let me guess. Is it "The Witch Within Me?"
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replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote:
I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years
and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When
cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the
WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM
than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the
concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As
far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere
for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out
some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years
old and older.

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm


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On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote:
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote:
I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years
and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When
cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the
WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM
than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the
concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As
far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere
for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out
some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years
old and older.
--

Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Sad Monster
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On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote:
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote:
I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years
and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When
cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the
WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM
than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the
concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As
far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere
for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out
some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years
old and older.
--

Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Sad Monster


The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg

Cousin Mark Twain Monster
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On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 8:20:13 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote:
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote:
I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years
and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When
cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the
WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM
than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the
concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As
far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere
for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out
some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years
old and older.
--

Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Sad Monster


The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg

Cousin Mark Twain Monster


OMG! What if he has to fart?! o_O

[8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster


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On 7/7/16 8:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete
wrote:
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote: I disagree with the
WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and
what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what
you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture
gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn
out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it.
Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete,
that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As
far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when
there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated.
And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no
gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. --

Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over
and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Sad Monster


The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg

Cousin Mark Twain Monster


So have the reports of bodies in Hoover Dam. None, according to
this.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5893183/who-is-buried-in-the-hoover-dam
There are six entombed in Fort Peck Dam in Montana.
I think Jimmy Hoffa has been riding around in UPS trucks since his
disappearance.
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replying to mister_friendly, clint wood wrote:
I'm surprised that not a single person here actually knows what aggregate
beneath a concrete slab is actually used for. It has nothing whatsoever to do
with moisture drainage. I think we all know that concrete is not water
permeable. Any water that makes its way beneath concrete has wicked through
the dirt from adjacent areas and will continue to wick its way out from
beneath the concrete. Aggregate beneath a concrete slab is used entirely to
minimize settling and to more evenly distribute the load the concrete imparts
onto the soil beneath. Soil compacts easily, and the weight of a vehicle will
cause your driveway to eventually compress the soil beneath and ultimately
lead to concrete failure. Aggregate spreads a concentrated load over a larger
area, thereby minimizing soil compaction. Generally speaking aggregate is not
needed beneath a sidewalk because a sidewalk is typically exposed to loads
that are insufficient to produce soil compaction.

--
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On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:44:01 GMT, clint wood
m wrote:

replying to mister_friendly, clint wood wrote:
I'm surprised that not a single person here actually knows what aggregate
beneath a concrete slab is actually used for. It has nothing whatsoever to do
with moisture drainage. I think we all know that concrete is not water
permeable. Any water that makes its way beneath concrete has wicked through
the dirt from adjacent areas and will continue to wick its way out from
beneath the concrete. Aggregate beneath a concrete slab is used entirely to
minimize settling and to more evenly distribute the load the concrete imparts
onto the soil beneath. Soil compacts easily, and the weight of a vehicle will
cause your driveway to eventually compress the soil beneath and ultimately
lead to concrete failure. Aggregate spreads a concentrated load over a larger
area, thereby minimizing soil compaction. Generally speaking aggregate is not
needed beneath a sidewalk because a sidewalk is typically exposed to loads
that are insufficient to produce soil compaction.

I'm sorry, but you do not know your concrete. Permeabilty of concrete
varies, and is somewhat dependent on the water/cement ratio. If
concrete was not permeable we would not need to warry about the
corrosion of re-enforcement steel in bridges and parking structures.
Rhat, however, is not why (primarily) aggregate is required. It is
required for drainage to keep water from accumulating under the
concrete and freezing, buckling and cracking the concrete. A small
portion of this water MAY be due to permeability, but that is not the
major cause
Also, dry undisturbed sub-soil will not "compress" - but when soaked
with water it can turn to "soup".
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replying to KenCon, TROY wrote:
I agree with KenCon.

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replying to KenCon, paledin wrote:
WWM

What part of the country do you live in? That could matter.

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replying to KenCon, PeterAAAAAAAA wrote:
Where are you located? Very curious as I am in New England. Curious if this
applies to cold weather climates as well. We routinely see zero degrees in
the winter. Your suggestions are appreciated.

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On Thursday, May 6, 2010 at 2:43:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
[...]...that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY?



My garage floor has a crack that weeps moisture constantly. I
suspect it is because 20 years ago the jackass builder did not
put gravel under the garage floor.
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replying to clint wood, Mark Hudson wrote:
Concrete is permeable. If it were not permeable you could sweep water off of
concrete and it would not appear wet. Especially most slab concrete because
it is air entrained to protect against freeze/thaw cycles and most slab
concrete is 3000 psi. Concrete can be non-permeable with the correct mix
design, but that is not usually the case for slabs. If concrete is
non-permeable why does the code require vapor barriers????

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What does WWM stand for?

Appreciably,
Alan

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In pdirect.com Rockhead writes:

What does WWM stand for?


Appreciably,
Alan


Don't know if you'll see my answer given that your
post came from outside Usenet, but WWM
stands for:

"Welded Wire Mesh".

Think of a roll of chicken wire fencing.

Different gauges and strengths, but that's
the general idea.



--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]


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In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 4 Apr 2021 22:16:55 +0000 (UTC), danny
burstein wrote:

In pdirect.com Rockhead writes:

What does WWM stand for?


Appreciably,
Alan


Don't know if you'll see my answer given that your
post came from outside Usenet, but WWM


I was surprised to see that the times I checked, my post was at the
Homemoaners web site.

What I find very currious is why we always come in in the middle of
their threads. What determines if Usenet gets a copy or not? The
individual poster there. Rules of Homemoaners? The length? Use of
unusual words? I can only guess.

stands for:

"Welded Wire Mesh".

Think of a roll of chicken wire fencing.


Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker
than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at
corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover
their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand
in (at least 50 years ago it was!)

https://www.amazon.com/Nueve-Deer-Ha...ef=sr_1_2_sspa

Different gauges and strengths, but that's
the general idea.


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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

On 4/4/21 10:07 PM, micky wrote:
Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker
than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at
corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover
their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand
in (at least 50 years ago it was!)



Chicago windows are usually made of "expanded metal".

I think Alro sells more windows in Chicago than Andersen and Pella combined.

http://alro.com/divsteel/Metals_Gridpt.aspx?gp=0104


Point of interest:

In rural America, fiberglass mesh screens are used to keep mosquitoes out.

In urban America, expanded metal is used in an attempt to keep democrats out.

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Default Why Put gravel under concrete?

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:35:39 -0400, Pinocchio Psaki
wrote:

On 4/4/21 10:07 PM, micky wrote:
Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker
than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at
corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover
their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand
in (at least 50 years ago it was!)



Chicago windows are usually made of "expanded metal".


It depends when the place was built. The back door of our apartment was
made of wood and glass.


I think Alro sells more windows in Chicago than Andersen and Pella combined.

http://alro.com/divsteel/Metals_Gridpt.aspx?gp=0104


Did I say window? I said door.


Point of interest:

In rural America, fiberglass mesh screens are used to keep mosquitoes out.

In urban America, expanded metal is used in an attempt to keep democrats out.


You can't stop being a moron, can you? I normally skip anything you
write but this time I had two questions and I naively hoped you might
answer one.
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