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#1
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put
gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. |
#2
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On May 6, 8:43�am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. �I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. �WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. �I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. �Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. �Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. �I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. It helps to drain away any water that may accumulate. In cold climates this can cause frost heave. |
#3
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On May 6, 3:43�am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. �I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. �WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. �I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. �Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. �Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. �I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. I agree with the others, to drain any water that may accumulate under the pad and possibly freeze in the winter. If you live in a warm climate, not so much of a problem. Since I live where it can get to 25 below, I usually will drop the pad down about an inch from the garage floor for 2 reasons. 1. The concrete will rise in cold temps. 2. To keep any water from entering the garage. Hank |
#5
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On May 6, 12:43*am, wrote:
I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. *I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. *WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. *I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. *Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. *Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. *I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. Gravel doesn't exactly make the underlying soil more water permeable. What it does is allow airspace (at least for a while) between rocks which permits water to flow through the gravel layer and get access to a larger surface area of soil. Without gravel, the soil near the center of the slab stays dry, while the soil near the periphery gets soaked. With the gravel layer, there is a slightly more even distribution of soaking. |
#6
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
wrote in message ... I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost situation and will not crack as readily under loading. By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and level when the inevitable happens. -- Nonny On most days, it's just not worth the effort of chewing through the restraints.. |
#7
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
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#8
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
wrote in message .. . I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost situation and will not crack as readily under loading. By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and level when the inevitable happens. It also keeps the organics out of the "ground layer" of concrete. Organics from soil contact can reduce concrete strength.(somewhat). |
#9
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost situation and will not crack as readily under loading. By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and level when the inevitable happens. I appreciate everyone's answers. You lost me on the WWM. What's that? Thanks |
#10
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
In article ,
wrote: On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote: All the answers you got were good ones. The gravel under a slab permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the slab. It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent thin/thick areas in the slab. The side benefit of water and thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost situation and will not crack as readily under loading. By the way, don't forget to use WWM. I don't think it contributes much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and level when the inevitable happens. I appreciate everyone's answers. You lost me on the WWM. What's that? Thanks Whichever one of these you think fits the context: http://www.abbreviations.com/WWM |
#11
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On May 6, 10:38*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 6 May 2010 10:52:45 -0700, "Nonny" wrote: All the answers you got were good ones. *The gravel under a slab permits water to even itself out and hopefully exit from under the slab. *It makes it easier to level the underside to prevent thin/thick areas in the slab. *The side benefit of water and thickness control is that the slab will be more stable in a frost situation and will not crack as readily under loading. By the way, don't forget to use WWM. *I don't think it contributes much strength to most slabs, but tends to hold the crack tight and level when the inevitable happens. I appreciate everyone's answers. *You lost me on the WWM. *What's that? * Thanks Welded Wire Mesh. |
#12
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm KenCon wrote: mister_friendly@the-newzgroups wrote: I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. I have poured concrete for 30 years now and can show you many places where we never used gravel under the slabs and they look just as good as those with gravel under them. Too many people watch Bob Villa. ------------------------------------- |
#13
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:53:56 +0000, KenCon
wrote: responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm KenCon wrote: mister_friendly@the-newzgroups wrote: I have poured many small sidewalks and shed floors and never put gravel under the concrete. I want to pour a driveway section in front of the garage and was told by a guy at the concrete company (who came to measure the amount needed), that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? I should mention that I always put lots of small to medium sized rocks under concrete to save on the amount of concrete needed. I save all rocks I get just for that use, and leave them get rained on to clean them. Any rock that will not exceed the height of the forms, goes in there. Because this will be driven on, I intend to put in some rebar, which I never do on sidewalks and shed floors. I have never had any problems with these sidewalks cracking or substantially lifting in winter. I have poured concrete for 30 years now and can show you many places where we never used gravel under the slabs and they look just as good as those with gravel under them. Too many people watch Bob Villa. ------------------------------------- Depends. If you have good drainage and no frost, gravel is not required. If you have good drainage and frost, you might get away without gravel. If you have no frost and iffy drainage you might get away without gravel. If you have poor drainage and get heavy frost, you likely will experience problems. |
#14
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
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#15
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On 8/18/2011 9:28 PM, Home Guy wrote:
wrote: If you have good drainage and no frost, gravel is not required. (...) Gravel is what you use when you want to move water away from a structure and you want the water to flow passively and freely - aided by gravity. Having a concrete pad sitting on gravel on a low spot of ground is not doing the pad any good. A concrete pad sitting on a high spot of ground will have a natural tendency to dry out and gravel isin't needed. In fact, I can't think of any reason why a pad would need gravel under it. In the case of foundations, you want any water that reaches the foundation to flow easily down to it's base where (hopefully) it's collected by a tile, pipe, etc. That's where the gravel helps. If you pour a pad on top of gravel, and you don't put down a membrane to separate the pad and the gravel, then what you end up with is a pad with a very jagged, permeable bottom surface where repeated cycles of freeze/thaw will eventually break up the concrete if any water reaches the underside. What you want is a smooth bottom surface, which is naturally impermeable to water infiltration and therefore resistant to freeze-thaw dammage. Gravel is the best capillary break possible under a slab floor. It is even better if the gravel is capped with Perminator or other heavy mil vapor barrier, but the gravel by itself will usually insure freedom from vapor transmission problems. The gravel has little or no value for the concrete itself. Each geographic area has a compactible select fill of some type that is used under commercial slabs. Here it is red select which is decomposed sandstone. It is fairly easy to generate Proctor densities/ modified Proctors at 95% or higher. Here's a good recipe for a strong well supported slab with best attempt at preventing moisture problems: Removal of loams and other organic soils and, in some cases, high plastic index clays. Proper compaction in six inch lifts of compactible fill to subgrade. A six inch lift of 57 stone as a capillary break. Heavy mill vapor barrier. Concrete with Water/Cement ratio below 50, using plasticiser if necessary. Proper curing. You've now done everything as best you can for slab and finish floor. |
#16
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Fri, 07 May 2010 09:19:31 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote: Whichever one of these you think fits the context: http://www.abbreviations.com/WWM Don't tell me. Let me guess. Is it "The Witch Within Me?" |
#17
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote:
I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. -- posted from http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-440616-.htm |
#18
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote:
replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote: I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. -- Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-( [8~{} Uncle Sad Monster |
#19
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote: replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote: I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. -- Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-( [8~{} Uncle Sad Monster The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg Cousin Mark Twain Monster |
#20
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 8:20:13 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote: On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote: replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote: I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. -- Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-( [8~{} Uncle Sad Monster The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg Cousin Mark Twain Monster OMG! What if he has to fart?! o_O [8~{} Uncle Gassy Monster |
#21
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On 7/7/16 8:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 9:07:50 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote: On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:44:06 PM UTC-5, Kendall Concrete wrote: replying to Nonny, Kendall Concrete wrote: I disagree with the WWM. I have replaced and poured concrete for over 30 years and what we see is that concrete is going to crack no matter what you do. When cracks occur in concrete containing WWM, moisture gets in and rusts away the WWM within a year or so. I have torn out nicer looking concrete without WWM than most with it. Another thing is that when we cut control joints in the concrete, that causes controlled cracking which then rusts out the WWM. As far as gravel under a slab draining water- What happens when there is nowhere for the water to go? The gravel stays saturated. And again, I have torn out some very nice sidewalks that had no gravel under them and some were 30 years old and older. -- Nonny can't reply. It was so tragic, a Ready Mix truck tipped over and crushed Nonny to death 5 years ago. We all miss Nonny. 8-( [8~{} Uncle Sad Monster The reports of Nonny's death have been greatly exaggerated. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0hwe3wDxQ6o/maxresdefault.jpg Cousin Mark Twain Monster So have the reports of bodies in Hoover Dam. None, according to this. http://io9.gizmodo.com/5893183/who-is-buried-in-the-hoover-dam There are six entombed in Fort Peck Dam in Montana. I think Jimmy Hoffa has been riding around in UPS trucks since his disappearance. |
#22
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to mister_friendly, clint wood wrote:
I'm surprised that not a single person here actually knows what aggregate beneath a concrete slab is actually used for. It has nothing whatsoever to do with moisture drainage. I think we all know that concrete is not water permeable. Any water that makes its way beneath concrete has wicked through the dirt from adjacent areas and will continue to wick its way out from beneath the concrete. Aggregate beneath a concrete slab is used entirely to minimize settling and to more evenly distribute the load the concrete imparts onto the soil beneath. Soil compacts easily, and the weight of a vehicle will cause your driveway to eventually compress the soil beneath and ultimately lead to concrete failure. Aggregate spreads a concentrated load over a larger area, thereby minimizing soil compaction. Generally speaking aggregate is not needed beneath a sidewalk because a sidewalk is typically exposed to loads that are insufficient to produce soil compaction. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#23
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:44:01 GMT, clint wood
m wrote: replying to mister_friendly, clint wood wrote: I'm surprised that not a single person here actually knows what aggregate beneath a concrete slab is actually used for. It has nothing whatsoever to do with moisture drainage. I think we all know that concrete is not water permeable. Any water that makes its way beneath concrete has wicked through the dirt from adjacent areas and will continue to wick its way out from beneath the concrete. Aggregate beneath a concrete slab is used entirely to minimize settling and to more evenly distribute the load the concrete imparts onto the soil beneath. Soil compacts easily, and the weight of a vehicle will cause your driveway to eventually compress the soil beneath and ultimately lead to concrete failure. Aggregate spreads a concentrated load over a larger area, thereby minimizing soil compaction. Generally speaking aggregate is not needed beneath a sidewalk because a sidewalk is typically exposed to loads that are insufficient to produce soil compaction. I'm sorry, but you do not know your concrete. Permeabilty of concrete varies, and is somewhat dependent on the water/cement ratio. If concrete was not permeable we would not need to warry about the corrosion of re-enforcement steel in bridges and parking structures. Rhat, however, is not why (primarily) aggregate is required. It is required for drainage to keep water from accumulating under the concrete and freezing, buckling and cracking the concrete. A small portion of this water MAY be due to permeability, but that is not the major cause Also, dry undisturbed sub-soil will not "compress" - but when soaked with water it can turn to "soup". |
#24
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to KenCon, TROY wrote:
I agree with KenCon. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#25
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to KenCon, paledin wrote:
WWM What part of the country do you live in? That could matter. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#26
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to KenCon, PeterAAAAAAAA wrote:
Where are you located? Very curious as I am in New England. Curious if this applies to cold weather climates as well. We routinely see zero degrees in the winter. Your suggestions are appreciated. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#27
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On Thursday, May 6, 2010 at 2:43:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
[...]...that I need to put gravel under the concrete. WHY? My garage floor has a crack that weeps moisture constantly. I suspect it is because 20 years ago the jackass builder did not put gravel under the garage floor. |
#28
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
replying to clint wood, Mark Hudson wrote:
Concrete is permeable. If it were not permeable you could sweep water off of concrete and it would not appear wet. Especially most slab concrete because it is air entrained to protect against freeze/thaw cycles and most slab concrete is 3000 psi. Concrete can be non-permeable with the correct mix design, but that is not usually the case for slabs. If concrete is non-permeable why does the code require vapor barriers???? -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#29
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
What does WWM stand for?
Appreciably, Alan -- For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...te-440616-.htm |
#30
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
In pdirect.com Rockhead writes:
What does WWM stand for? Appreciably, Alan Don't know if you'll see my answer given that your post came from outside Usenet, but WWM stands for: "Welded Wire Mesh". Think of a roll of chicken wire fencing. Different gauges and strengths, but that's the general idea. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#31
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 4 Apr 2021 22:16:55 +0000 (UTC), danny
burstein wrote: In pdirect.com Rockhead writes: What does WWM stand for? Appreciably, Alan Don't know if you'll see my answer given that your post came from outside Usenet, but WWM I was surprised to see that the times I checked, my post was at the Homemoaners web site. What I find very currious is why we always come in in the middle of their threads. What determines if Usenet gets a copy or not? The individual poster there. Rules of Homemoaners? The length? Use of unusual words? I can only guess. stands for: "Welded Wire Mesh". Think of a roll of chicken wire fencing. Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand in (at least 50 years ago it was!) https://www.amazon.com/Nueve-Deer-Ha...ef=sr_1_2_sspa Different gauges and strengths, but that's the general idea. |
#32
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
On 4/4/21 10:07 PM, micky wrote:
Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand in (at least 50 years ago it was!) Chicago windows are usually made of "expanded metal". I think Alro sells more windows in Chicago than Andersen and Pella combined. http://alro.com/divsteel/Metals_Gridpt.aspx?gp=0104 Point of interest: In rural America, fiberglass mesh screens are used to keep mosquitoes out. In urban America, expanded metal is used in an attempt to keep democrats out. |
#33
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Why Put gravel under concrete?
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:35:39 -0400, Pinocchio Psaki
wrote: On 4/4/21 10:07 PM, micky wrote: Is WWM more simlar to hardware cloth, I think it's called? Thicker than chicken wire, square pattern rather than hexagonal, fused at corners rather than woven. Used by a lot of people in Chicago to cover their back door windows so someone breaks the glass can't put his hand in (at least 50 years ago it was!) Chicago windows are usually made of "expanded metal". It depends when the place was built. The back door of our apartment was made of wood and glass. I think Alro sells more windows in Chicago than Andersen and Pella combined. http://alro.com/divsteel/Metals_Gridpt.aspx?gp=0104 Did I say window? I said door. Point of interest: In rural America, fiberglass mesh screens are used to keep mosquitoes out. In urban America, expanded metal is used in an attempt to keep democrats out. You can't stop being a moron, can you? I normally skip anything you write but this time I had two questions and I naively hoped you might answer one. |
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