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On Apr 12, 1:49*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/12/2010 4:42 AM ransley spake thus:

On Apr 11, 11:42 am, Roy wrote:


What's with the 8000 hr. b.s.? I've had a number of them last only
about 500 hours and of course I had thrown the packaging away. Now, I
write the installation date on the sleeve and file it away. Of course
if you don't have the freakin receipt, you're up the creek as well.
Even some from the same lot have different life-times. The ones that
lasted the longest were in outside enclosed fixtures and were turned
on for eight to twelve hour durations all year long.


Buy HD stuff, you are in their computer and just the other day I
returned some without a reciept, HD has a 9 yr warranty and I often
buy the CFls so im in their computer, no mail in required.


So do they just scan the bulb? Is the bulb's barcode in their database?
What if you buy a 4-pack and just return 1 blub?

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)


I keep a package packing of the last group purchased, since I use over
100 at different locations I save the burnt out ones and wait till I
have a full pack, but knowing HD they would give you just one, my
failure rate is so minimal over 4 years and the prices now so low its
really a non issue for me now. about .45C a bulb isnt much for what I
save in electricity it is great that they do work well.
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On Apr 12, 2:57*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:47:27 -0700, David Nebenzahl





wrote:
On 4/12/2010 3:28 AM spake thus:


I believe the LED's themselves as a component, have a service life of
around 50,000 hours. The problems with current LED's for the home is
that they have to have a regulator built into each one to take 120
volts AC and reduce it to just a few volts DC. That is very
inefficient. I am thinking that LED's for retrofits will always be a
problem. In new construction, if the building is wired with low
voltage DC for lighting circuits, I think that problem can be overcome
NOW. It would be pretty easy to set up a battery bank of AGM batteries
that would be charged by solar panels and backed up by an AC charger.


That's an interesting idea, and you may be right: this might be the wave
of the future for home lighting.


One problem with this is that low-voltage wiring loses much more power
over long runs than comparable high-voltage wiring, due to I^2R losses.
(This can be partly compensated for by using heavier conductors, but
that adds cost.) While this may not be a problem in a small, compact
house where the batteries are centrally located, it will definitely be a
problem on a large suburban "spread" where the batteries may be located
in an outbuilding. Maybe not a show-stopper, but there will definitely
be some energy losses to deal with. The homeowner may end up running
8-gauge cables over long runs.


Don't forget that these LEDs don't draw anywhere near what present
incandescents and CFL's draw. Once you eliminate the point of use
regulation, the draw is drasticallhy lower. A lot of the power
consumption for present retrofit LED's is the heat given off during
regulation. The LED's themselves barely draw anything by comparison.

I don't foresee needing long runs of 8 gauge wire in residential
applications.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The Leds I see advertised are 80-100 LPW, but its a Spot output. I use
cheap HD cfls of about 60 LPW for .45c each with 9 yr warranty. Ive
seen a few CFLs now at around 70 LPW. Remember incandesant are only
about 15 LPW. I cant see paying the near 100% premium price for LEDs
at this time for only a near 20% increase on LPW for a colder color
bulb, that usualy isnt outdoor rated or dimmable and with a truely
unknown life span, I would relate that to the electronics package, in
real life surges, weather extremes, vibrations, all take a toll on
electronics and only time will really tell whether they last as they
say. Either way the excessive premium does not make them a viable
option for the average home owner now. Leds are really a spot light
design, not fully illuminating like a regular bulb so in most
locations they may be the right bulb, as a general bulb. In time
competition will stop the price gouging Leds manufacturers now enjoy
from limited competition, but that is years away. I want to try a few
2 w exterior Leds as landscape units, but even these are near 25$
each! I think its going to be Cfls for awhile for me.
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On Apr 18, 1:28*am, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In ,
ransley wrote in small part:

SNIP to mention of Lights of America

I bought a Lights Of America Led, [ makers of many high quaility
commercial lighting products] and found the 9w Led to be a total lie
and terrible color rendition, it put out about 25% as much as a HD
Cfl !


SNIP afterwards

* Maybe the many L.O.A. CFLs that I have personally purchased and used and
had personal experience with are other than these "many high quality
commercial lighting products"?

* Although L.O.A. appears to me to be much better than the outright stool
specimens that nearly all dollar store CFLs (with possible exceptions at
some Dollar Tree stores) appear to me to be, I am rather displeased by my
personal experience with L.O.A. CFLs. *I have only purchased two L.O.A.
screw-base CFLs after 2002 and at least one likely both of those in 2005.
One of those latest two gave me problems by the time I ran it a few 10's
of operating hours and both of those two appeared to me to produce lower
ratio of claimed to actual light output than I found from CFLs of most
other brands and from most non-dollar-store A19-style incandescents that
stated light output in lumens.

* All of the L.O.A. CFLs that I purchased in 2002 or earlier similarly
appeared to me to have lower ratio of actual to claimed light output than
most CFLs other than L.O.A. and the dollar-store-junkers, and my memory at
this moment is of 6 of these that I personally purchased and 2 of these 6
completely died young (around 12 and a few hundred operating hours
respectively) and 2 others of these 6 significantly malfunctioned due to
poor contact in plug-socket connections ("modular" rather than "integral"
design, bulb plugs into a screw-base ballast module) and/or poor solder
joints.

* I mention this in at least a bit more detail in:

http://members.misty.com/don/cfapp.html#b

* I stand by my negative experiences with L.O.A. that I mention there and
above here as actual personal experience with L.O.A. products that I
personally purchased in-store from major-name retailers. *(Although I
disclaim guaranteeing accuracy down to the year of every one of my many
negative personal experiences with L.O.A. CFL products, including
year-of-purchase and year of malfunction that I actually personally
experienced.)

*- Don Klipstein )


I meant High Quality as kinda a joke. What I was suprised at was my
ACE sold LOA leds that LOA wont even show on their site, they are
crap, even a grey color of a bs lumen rating.
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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On 4/18/2010 1:28 AM, Don Klipstein wrote:
,
ransley wrote in small part:

SNIP to mention of Lights of America

I bought a Lights Of America Led, [ makers of many high quaility
commercial lighting products] and found the 9w Led to be a total lie
and terrible color rendition, it put out about 25% as much as a HD
Cfl !


SNIP afterwards

Maybe the many L.O.A. CFLs that I have personally purchased and used and
had personal experience with are other than these "many high quality
commercial lighting products"?

Although L.O.A. appears to me to be much better than the outright stool
specimens that nearly all dollar store CFLs (with possible exceptions at
some Dollar Tree stores) appear to me to be, I am rather displeased by my
personal experience with L.O.A. CFLs. I have only purchased two L.O.A.
screw-base CFLs after 2002 and at least one likely both of those in 2005.
One of those latest two gave me problems by the time I ran it a few 10's
of operating hours and both of those two appeared to me to produce lower
ratio of claimed to actual light output than I found from CFLs of most
other brands and from most non-dollar-store A19-style incandescents that
stated light output in lumens.

All of the L.O.A. CFLs that I purchased in 2002 or earlier similarly
appeared to me to have lower ratio of actual to claimed light output than
most CFLs other than L.O.A. and the dollar-store-junkers, and my memory at
this moment is of 6 of these that I personally purchased and 2 of these 6
completely died young (around 12 and a few hundred operating hours
respectively) and 2 others of these 6 significantly malfunctioned due to
poor contact in plug-socket connections ("modular" rather than "integral"
design, bulb plugs into a screw-base ballast module) and/or poor solder
joints.

I mention this in at least a bit more detail in:

http://members.misty.com/don/cfapp.html#b

I stand by my negative experiences with L.O.A. that I mention there and
above here as actual personal experience with L.O.A. products that I
personally purchased in-store from major-name retailers. (Although I
disclaim guaranteeing accuracy down to the year of every one of my many
negative personal experiences with L.O.A. CFL products, including
year-of-purchase and year of malfunction that I actually personally
experienced.)

- Don Klipstein )


I got a dollar store CFL that blew apart in a matter of days.
The little cheap capacitors blew apart like a black cat firecracker.

Long term the LED lights will suffer from the same issues as other
electronics. Heat, solder, and component failure will do them in
early too. Who cares about the warranty? the here today gone tomorrow
Chinese MFR will make sure the warranty is next to worthless.
And quality lights manufactured by major companies will not be cost
effective. Who wants to be green when it costs more long term?

At least old school light bulbs tend to last. I think if Edison were
to come back to life in 2010 he would be both amazed and befuddled
at the same time

bob



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In article , wrote:
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 06:12:40 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

"GE says the new bulb uses just 9 watts and provides a 77% energy savings
while lasting 25 times as long as the 40-watt bulb it's intended to
replace."

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...b-lasts-years/

Assume a 40-watt bulb lasts 1000 hours.

40w x 1000 = 40 kwh x $0.15/kwh = $6.00 operating cost over life of bulb.

The new bulb uses 9 watts. So for the same period,

9w x 1000 = 9 kwh x $0.15/kwh = $1.35 operating cost.


You neglected to figure in the life of the LED lamp at 25,000 hours,
for a savings of over $30 per lamp, and the cost of all the standard
lamps you would not be replacing.

Now count how many lamps in one typical home.


You did show that LED bulbs are more conomical than incandescents.

However, CFLs appear to me to be more economic still, with lower ratio
of acquisition cost to life expectancy than LED bulbs, and efficiency no
worse than any LED bulb I ever heard of being on the market with a decent
color and decent color rendering.

However, LEDs with good color and color rendering have a good chance of
becoming more economical than CFLs in a few years.

- Don Klipstein )


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On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:06:42 -0500, bob wrote:

On 4/18/2010 1:28 AM, Don Klipstein wrote:
,
ransley wrote in small part:

SNIP to mention of Lights of America

I bought a Lights Of America Led, [ makers of many high quaility
commercial lighting products] and found the 9w Led to be a total lie
and terrible color rendition, it put out about 25% as much as a HD
Cfl !


SNIP afterwards

Maybe the many L.O.A. CFLs that I have personally purchased and used and
had personal experience with are other than these "many high quality
commercial lighting products"?

Although L.O.A. appears to me to be much better than the outright stool
specimens that nearly all dollar store CFLs (with possible exceptions at
some Dollar Tree stores) appear to me to be, I am rather displeased by my
personal experience with L.O.A. CFLs. I have only purchased two L.O.A.
screw-base CFLs after 2002 and at least one likely both of those in 2005.
One of those latest two gave me problems by the time I ran it a few 10's
of operating hours and both of those two appeared to me to produce lower
ratio of claimed to actual light output than I found from CFLs of most
other brands and from most non-dollar-store A19-style incandescents that
stated light output in lumens.

All of the L.O.A. CFLs that I purchased in 2002 or earlier similarly
appeared to me to have lower ratio of actual to claimed light output than
most CFLs other than L.O.A. and the dollar-store-junkers, and my memory at
this moment is of 6 of these that I personally purchased and 2 of these 6
completely died young (around 12 and a few hundred operating hours
respectively) and 2 others of these 6 significantly malfunctioned due to
poor contact in plug-socket connections ("modular" rather than "integral"
design, bulb plugs into a screw-base ballast module) and/or poor solder
joints.

I mention this in at least a bit more detail in:

http://members.misty.com/don/cfapp.html#b

I stand by my negative experiences with L.O.A. that I mention there and
above here as actual personal experience with L.O.A. products that I
personally purchased in-store from major-name retailers. (Although I
disclaim guaranteeing accuracy down to the year of every one of my many
negative personal experiences with L.O.A. CFL products, including
year-of-purchase and year of malfunction that I actually personally
experienced.)

- Don Klipstein )


I got a dollar store CFL that blew apart in a matter of days.
The little cheap capacitors blew apart like a black cat firecracker.

Long term the LED lights will suffer from the same issues as other
electronics. Heat, solder, and component failure will do them in
early too. Who cares about the warranty? the here today gone tomorrow
Chinese MFR will make sure the warranty is next to worthless.
And quality lights manufactured by major companies will not be cost
effective. Who wants to be green when it costs more long term?

At least old school light bulbs tend to last. I think if Edison were
to come back to life in 2010 he would be both amazed and befuddled
at the same time

bob


And NO hazardous material disposal problem.
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In article , Tegger wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in
om:

"GE says the new bulb uses just 9 watts and provides a 77% energy
savings while lasting 25 times as long as the 40-watt bulb it's
intended to replace."

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...b-lasts-years/

Assume a 40-watt bulb lasts 1000 hours.

40w x 1000 = 40 kwh x $0.15/kwh = $6.00 operating cost over life of
bulb.

The new bulb uses 9 watts. So for the same period,

9w x 1000 = 9 kwh x $0.15/kwh = $1.35 operating cost.



And the difference in purchase price between the two bulbs?


The one lasting 25 times as long is not a CFL but an LED bulb.

A 13 or 14 watt CFL now often comes in 6-packs for $10, and appear to me
to now actually last usually 5,000 hours or more in most home use.

A 60 watt incandescent may cost 80 cents, or 30 cents at home centers,
and at the 12 cents per KWH that I think is current or very-soon USA
national residential rate average consumes $7.20 in electricity over its
1,000 hour life. So maybe it costs $7.50 to acquire and operate over its
1,000 hour average life.

A 14 watt CFL costing $1.67 and lasting 5,000 hours costs $10.07 at this
rate to acquire and operate over its life that is 5 times as long. Which
translates to costing $2.02 to use over the amount of time that a 60 watt
incandescent costs $7.50. (.502 cent per hour of operation.)

My problem with the CFLs is that the amounts of money they save, over the
time they save it, are exceedingly trivial. Not worth it, to me.


$5.05 for each 60 watt incandescent over the amount of time it lasts is
trivial? A smaller number for 40 watt incandescents and a bigger number
for 75 and 100 watt ones?

A 100 watt incandescent rated to last on average 750 hours can be
replaced by a 26 watt CFL, and 130V 100 watt incandescents and Philips
"Double life" 100W incandescents as well as any lasting even longer can be
replaced by a 23 watt CFL. At 12 cents per KWH, this amounts to .888 to
..924 cent per hour.
Acquisition costs of $3-$4.50 CFLs likely to last 4,000 hours or more
(especially 23 watt ones that overheat less easily than 26 watt ones) will
reduce these savings to around .77 to .84 cent per hour. Add to these the
acquisition cost of incandescents, anywhere from .02 to .11 cent per hour,
unless they are superlonglife ones dim enough to be replaced by an 18-20
watt CFL rather than a 23 watt one. So a 100 watt incandescent costs on
average .79-.95 cent per operating hour more than a CFL replacent.

How many bulbs do you have, and how many hours per month do you use each
one?

For most people, difference between incandescent and CFL for all of
their light bulb uses where CFLs make sense adds up to a lot more than
some mere pennies per month.

It's not worth it to most consumers either, which is why the bulb
industry has to lobby the government to ban incandescents in order to
create a market for their CFLs.


Can you cite how it is the "bulb industry" (electric lamp industry,
in large part GE and Philips and Sylvania) rather than environmental
groups lobbied for the incandescent ban? It appears to me that GE,
Philips and Sylvania would rather oppose it, now that I am seeing CFLs
with lower ratio of price to life expectancy than most incandescents.

I have heard of the lamp industry working with Congress on the details
of the ban. I suspect the results of that were a large range of
exemptions, many of which actually make sense to me to lack of suitable
non-incandescent replacements. The exemptions all together appear to me
to amount to a set of loopholes wide enough to reroute the Mississippi
River through. I mention those in:

http://members.misty.com/don/incban.html

- Don Klipstein )
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In , wrote:
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT), Roy wrote:

On Apr 11, 8:49Â*am, "Pete C." wrote:


SNIP what led to this for editing for space

Apparently you have not done the math, or have made some mistakes:

60W equiv. 13W CFL, 8,000hr rated life, $1.58 ea (8pk)
60W incandescent, 1,000hr rated life, $0.6225 ea (8pk)

CFL cost for 8,000 hours = $1.58
Incandescent cost for 8,000 hours = $4.98

CFL savings in lamp cost alone $3.40


That's assuming you ever get one to last 8000 hours. I never have. I
replace CFLs more often than incandescents around here


My experience with CFLs is much more favorable. They appear to me to
actually last on average in my actual home usage 3,500 to 4,000 hours for
the ones that have burned out so far, with some distinct and notable
exceptions mostly notably avoidable. The ones that I have to burn out, of
which I have plenty, appear to me to have mostly lasted at least 4,000
operating hours. I seem to think that 5,000 hours is reasonable for
actual typical home use.

SNIP a repeating of the math

What's with the 8000 hr. b.s.? I've had a number of them last only
about 500 hours and of course I had thrown the packaging away. Now, I
write the installation date on the sleeve and file it away. Of course
if you don't have the freakin receipt, you're up the creek as well.
Even some from the same lot have different life-times. The ones that
lasted the longest were in outside enclosed fixtures and were turned
on for eight to twelve hour durations all year long.
==


Wouldn't be too bad if you could buy decent quality CFLs - but
everything today is a crap-shoot. Doesn't matter what you pay for them
they are all cheap chinese crap.


The odds get good if you get ones of a "Big 3" brand (GE, Philips,
Sylvania) or one that has the Energy Star logo, especially one with both
accomplishments.

My experience suggests to avoid Lights of America and the
even-badly-much-worse-still dollar store stool specimens.

Use them only where on average they are on at least a few minutes
when they are turned on. They are not economical for motion sensor
lights, closet lights or refrigerator lights.

CFLs can overheat in small enclosed fixtures and recessed ceiling
fixtures. Most problems in that area can be avoided by using only CFLs
overtly rated for such purposes or of wattage no more than 23 watts.
(Better still no more than 13 watts if that provides sufficient light.)

- Don Klipstein )
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In , wrote
in part:

SNIP everything already said to edit for space

No dimmers. Just normal lamps and fixtures. The worst culprits have
been the PAR floods (potlights) which have NEVER lasted more than 14
months - and usually the last 5 or more of that 14 being extremely
slow to light off.


I would guess from being used in those heat hellholes known as recessed
ceiling fixtures.

I would look for ones of the Philips brand, and I did just check and see
that bulbs.com has these. I even found two dimmable ones with no noted
restrictions, but they are fairly expensive:

http://www.bulbs.com/eSpec.aspx?ID=1...&RefId=45&Ref2
=Compact+Fluorescent+Screw-in

http://www.bulbs.com/eSpec.aspx?ID=1...&RefId=45&Ref2
=Compact+Fluorescent+Screw-in

Never had much luch with the F40 tubes either,


Those were *the standard* for commercial lighting from at least as far
back as sometime in the 1960's until T8 displaced them largely in the
1990's. However, there were and are lower grade "residential grade"
ballasts for those.

Also - if the fixture has a starter and a replacement bulb is cranky or
malfunctions, replace the starter. Bad bulbs are hard on starters, and
bad starters are hard on bulbs.

and "green" t12s are even worse. I'm down to only 3 of those disasters
left in the house.


If you man 34 watt version of F40T12, those are crankier than the true
40 watt ones. They still worked well in commercial grade fixtures with
commercial grade ballasts.

I DID still have 1 old circline compact flourescent in working
condition up untill about 3 months ago that I bought about 22-25 years
ago. Bought 2 - the first one died about 6 years back. Cannot remember
the manufacturer but it was North American


- Don Klipstein )
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In article , SMS wrote:
On 11/04/10 6:07 PM, DanG wrote:
Amen, the ones I have tried have all blown. They have been name
brand, not discount bulbs. The one on the front porch is still
going. By choice I will not be investing in any more CFL or LED
until the technology improves.


There's your problem, you think you're investing when you buy a light bulb.

But it's true about LED bulbs not lasting all that long. There's a huge
difference between a low power, 20mA LED indicator lamp that will likely
last for a hundred years, and a high-power LED lamp that is designed to
actually illuminate a given area. High power LEDs generate an enormous
amount of heat at the very small semiconductor junction. It's very
difficult to adequately heat sink these junctions. If you look at
something like a 3W MR16 lamp, you can see the amount of metal used for
the heat sink. If you block the air flow across the bulb by putting it
into a sealed enclosure (like for automotive lamps) then it will quickly
self destruct. Incandescent bulbs dissipate the filament heat through
the glass of the bulb which is much easier to manage.


Much of how an incandescent gets rid of its heat is by radiation. Close
to half the power going into an incandescent (varies by individual design)
becomes infrared of wavelengths that the filament radiates through the
glass. That infrared goes where the light goes. The heat materializes
where this radiation is absorbed - usually mostly outside the fixture.

Incandescents also work OK at higher temperatures that CFLs and LED
bulbs are not OK in.

- Don Klipstein )


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In article , Tegger wrote:
(Don Klipstein) wrote in
:

Incandescents also work OK at higher temperatures that CFLs and LED
bulbs are not OK in.


And you can safely put the very same incandescent
1) over your stove
2) by your bed
3) on the porch
4) upside down
5) in the kids' rooms...

And you know the light emitted is always going to look "right" no matter
low little you paid for that incandescent.

I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


As it turns out, I am happy to:

1. Buy 13 watt bare spirals that serve me well in my ceiling fan light,
despite being somewhat upside-down, and in my encvlosed kitchen ceiling
fixture

2. Buy 19 watt 3500K spirals that serve me well in my bathroom light,
my bedroom floor lamp, and my smaller living room floor lamp.

3. Have purchased in a bit of quantity 13 watt 4100K twintubes for my
modified larger living room floor lamp (quad-13-watt), although I plan
to replace it or remodify it to take a single 42 watt 4100K spiral once
my stock of 13-watt twintubes runs low (which may be quite a while),
maybe somewhat sooner. (I have other applications for 13 watt twintubes.)

4. Use the 9 watt spiral that serves me well for the light over my
kitchen stove.

- Don Klipstein )
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On 04/12/10 07:53 am, ransley wrote:

I bought a Lights of America LED bulb last year. It was very dim
(Probably about half the rated output), had an odd color spectrum to
it that I can't quite put my finger on, and it only lasted about 2
weeks before it burned out.

LED lights aren't there yet. Maybe in a few years.


I bought that LOA crap, its one of the junk LEDs as you say, funny it
wasnt even on the LOA web site, ACE sold it to me, im ****ed at that
LOA -ACE bulb too


We bought some LOA LED bulbs at Sam's -- two different kinds: the one
kind all seem to be doing OK still, while the one PAR38 one has just
lost one-fourth of its LEDs. They are supposed to have a 3-yr warranty;
I'll have to check how much we paid and see if it's worth the shipping
cost to send it back for a replacement

We also bought some LOA PAR30 bulbs at Costco. Just after one of them
lost half of its LEDs, we got a letter from Costco inviting us to return
them all for a full refund, as they had been found not to last as long
as advertised. We took Costco up on the offer.

Perhaps Sam's, Costco and Ace all got what seemed to them like good
deals on items that had in fact been discontinued.

The only LED bubs I see anywhere now are much more expensive and have
much lower light outputs.

Perce
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On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:
(Don Klipstein) wrote :



* Incandescents also work OK at higher temperatures that CFLs and LED
bulbs are not OK in.


And you can safely put the very same incandescent
1) over your stove
2) by your bed
3) on the porch
4) upside down
5) in the kids' rooms...

And you know the light emitted is always going to look "right" no matter
low little you paid for that incandescent.

I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.

--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat. Run 11
-100 w incandesants and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy. With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.
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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

ransley wrote in
:

On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:



I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.

--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.




Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.



Run 11-100 w incandesants




Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.



and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat




Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.



CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.



I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.



With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.



Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


--
Tegger


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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote :

On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.

Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


Almost all of ours are 60W, though there are 4-12 per fixture. ;-)

and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.

CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


Yep. I don't like any CFLs I've seen. They're ugly in expensive
light fixtures, as well. No thanks.

With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


;-)


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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:





ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


Almost all of ours are 60W, though there are 4-12 per fixture. *;-)

and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... *When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! *The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. *CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.

CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


Yep. *I don't like any CFLs I've seen. *They're ugly in expensive
light fixtures, as well. *No thanks.

With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


;-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


..45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.
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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote :

On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.

Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.

and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.

CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.

With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...

--
Tegger


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.
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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Apr 23, 2:28*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:



On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


Almost all of ours are 60W, though there are 4-12 per fixture. *;-)


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... *When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! *The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. *CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


Yep. *I don't like any CFLs I've seen. *They're ugly in expensive
light fixtures, as well. *No thanks.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


;-)- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. You need to
*think*.


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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Apr 23, 2:35*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:



ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


--
Tegger


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,


Cool! They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?

IOW, you're a liar.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. *The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! *I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.


I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.




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keith wrote in
:

On Apr 23, 2:28*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:



.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. You need to
*think*.






Incandescents used to be 30¢ a bulb until the recent legislative attacks.

And you ain't gonna get no pretty light out of the bargain-basement CFLs,
that's for sure.

--
Tegger
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ransley wrote in
:



Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction.




What kind of building? Are we talking apartment buldings with tons of bulbs
in the common areas? Do you force your tenants to install CFLs in their
units?



The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it!




When the sun isn't beating down, it's easier for the A/C to keep up without
running all the time. I guess this doesn't apply in places like Phoenix in
July, but I'm not in such a place.



I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you.



The dollar amount saved is trivial. Not worth the savings for the trouble.
Now if CFLs saved the average homeowner, oh, $300 per month in electricity,
the feds wouldn't need to force everybody to use CFLs, and we wouldn't be
having this discussion.



--
Tegger
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On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:31:32 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

keith wrote in
:

On Apr 23, 2:28Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 9:58Â*am, keith wrote:



.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. You need to
*think*.






Incandescents used to be 30¢ a bulb until the recent legislative attacks.

And you ain't gonna get no pretty light out of the bargain-basement CFLs,
that's for sure.


Assuming you get any light AT ALL after a couple months.
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In ,
keith wrote in part:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


SNIP to here

Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.


It costs about half as much to heat a home with a heat pump as it does
with resistive heating. And in most areas, it costs less to heat a home
with gas or oil than it does with resistive heating.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.


What? No need for lighting for long outside a bathroom in a house in a
location that needs heat 7-8 months out of the year?

SNIP from here

- Don Klipstein )
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In , wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:31:32 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

keith wrote in
:

On Apr 23, 2:28Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 9:58Â*am, keith wrote:



.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.

For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. You need to
*think*.


Incandescents used to be 30¢ a bulb until the recent legislative attacks.

And you ain't gonna get no pretty light out of the bargain-basement CFLs,
that's for sure.


Assuming you get any light AT ALL after a couple months.


My experience other than dollar store stool specimens and Lights of
America and using CFLs in bad places such as motion sensor lights is an
impressively high rate of achieving average life expectancy of 4,000-plus
hours.

(Though not all take recessed ceiling fixtures and small enclosed
fixtures well, and that gets worse as wattage increases, especially past
23 watts.)

And they have been improving. If I had to buy one tomorrow, I would
expect 5,000 maybe 6,000 hours real-world average-home-use life expectancy
excluding what I mentioned as not-so-good CFLs and not-so-good places/ways
to use CFLs.

I have even gotten good results with cheaper brands sold by Home Depot,
with my main complaint being that some of the N:Vision ones they sold a
few years ago audibly buzz, though not loudly.

CFLs tend to be better if they have the Energy Star logo or if they are
of one of the "Big 3" brands (GE, Philips or Sylvania), especially if
both.

- Don Klipstein )


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In ,
keith wrote:

On Apr 23, 2:35*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:

ransley wrote in news:
:


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for
a apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,


Cool! They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?


IOW, you're a liar.


CFLs replacing incandescents save on net energy costs, even when heat
pumps, water heaters, and ovens are included.

Heat pumps deliver around twice as much heating from a given amount of
electricity consumption as resistive heaters do, since about half the
heat that heat pumps put out is pumped in from outside rather than heat
from converting electrical energy to heat energy.

Since incandescent household lighting has very little of its heat
heating the water in water heaters or the contents of ovens, I am prone
to take a dim view of those advocating incandescents over CFL on the heat
of incandescent home lighting being good for water heaters and ovens.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. *The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! *I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.


I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.


As if CFL advocates don't in light of the above?

- Don Klipstein )
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In article , Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote in
:

Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction.


What kind of building? Are we talking apartment buldings with tons of bulbs
in the common areas? Do you force your tenants to install CFLs in their
units?


My experience is that landlords do not force tenants to use CFLs in
place of incandescents. It appears to me that one reason is that the
energy savings from tenant use of CFLs is in tenant's electric bill for
lighting and tenant's electric bill for air conditioning. To a smaller
extent, tenant use of CFLs in place of incandescents increases the
landlord's heating bill.

I suspect that is a significant reason why my landlord filled my
included-in-apartment light fixtures with incandescents that are rated
to last 5,000 hours at 130V.

While the landlord used a fair amount of CFL usage for hallway lights
that are run on the landlord's dime.

The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it!


When the sun isn't beating down, it's easier for the A/C to keep up without
running all the time. I guess this doesn't apply in places like Phoenix in
July, but I'm not in such a place.

I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you.


The dollar amount saved is trivial. Not worth the savings for the trouble.
Now if CFLs saved the average homeowner, oh, $300 per month in electricity,
the feds wouldn't need to force everybody to use CFLs, and we wouldn't be
having this discussion.


As if savings are trivial if they are less than triple what I pay for
car insurance or less than 40% of what I pay to rent a larger 1-bedroom
apartment with free off-street parking and located within walking distance
of a major public transit terminal?

--
Tegger


- Don Klipstein )
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On Apr 24, 1:19*am, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In article , Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote in
:


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction.


What kind of building? Are we talking apartment buldings with tons of bulbs
in the common areas? Do you force your tenants to install CFLs in their
units?


* My experience is that landlords do not force tenants to use CFLs in
place of incandescents. *It appears to me that one reason is that the
energy savings from tenant use of CFLs is in tenant's electric bill for
lighting and tenant's electric bill for air conditioning. *To a smaller
extent, tenant use of CFLs in place of incandescents increases the
landlord's heating bill.

* I suspect that is a significant reason why my landlord filled my
included-in-apartment light fixtures with incandescents that are rated
to last 5,000 hours at 130V.

* While the landlord used a fair amount of CFL usage for hallway lights
that are run on the landlord's dime.





The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it!


When the sun isn't beating down, it's easier for the A/C to keep up without
running all the time. I guess this doesn't apply in places like Phoenix in
July, but I'm not in such a place.


I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you.


The dollar amount saved is trivial. Not worth the savings for the trouble.
Now if CFLs saved the average homeowner, oh, $300 per month in electricity,
the feds wouldn't need to force everybody to use CFLs, and we wouldn't be
having this discussion.


* As if savings are trivial if they are less than triple what I pay for
car insurance or less than 40% of what I pay to rent a larger 1-bedroom
apartment with free off-street parking and located within walking distance
of a major public transit terminal?

--
Tegger


*- Don Klipstein )- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Building hall ways and my houses. I dont like tenants to use cfls,
because they pay electricity and incandesants help lower my heating
bill in wInter!
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On Apr 23, 4:42*pm, Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote :



Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction.


What kind of building? Are we talking apartment buldings with tons of bulbs
in the common areas? Do you force your tenants to install CFLs in their
units?

The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it!


When the sun isn't beating down, it's easier for the A/C to keep up without
running all the time. I guess this doesn't apply in places like Phoenix in
July, but I'm not in such a place.

I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you.


The dollar amount saved is trivial. Not worth the savings for the trouble..
Now if CFLs saved the average homeowner, oh, $300 per month in electricity,
the feds wouldn't need to force everybody to use CFLs, and we wouldn't be
having this discussion.

--
Tegger


Her again your logic is absent, the savings is not trivial when you
cut your bill 40-60% and who pays 300 a month for general electric use
without AC. Im in a 3500 sq ft house with a now 35$ bill ,CFLs inside,
out, and house and tree lighting. wake up and get with reality. Go to
HD and price and buy a few packs of soft white " green colored packs"
of cfls and stop paying that utility co an arm and a leg every year.
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On Apr 23, 4:31*pm, Tegger wrote:
keith wrote :

On Apr 23, 2:28*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:


.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. *You need to
*think*.


Incandescents used to be 30¢ a bulb until the recent legislative attacks.

And you ain't gonna get no pretty light out of the bargain-basement CFLs,
that's for sure.

--
Tegger


Here again your logic is absent, you are clueless. HD CFLs and most
others now replicate incandesants on color rendition. There is a 2-3
yr old review comparison at Popular Mechanics magazine that rated HD
soft white BETTER than incandesants at color rendition in some
situations. Cfls coatings have come along way over the last few years,
technology moves on if you havnt heard. That pop machanics review is
hard to find, but its there, read it. CR also did a review comparison
test, it will all suprise you. At HD you have a 30 day no questions
asked return policy, buy and try em. Keep a reciept and its a 9 yr
warranty so you can perpetualy always have cfls.


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On Apr 23, 3:00*pm, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 2:35*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


--
Tegger


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,


Cool! *They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?

IOW, you're a liar.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. *The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! *I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.


I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Dam what kind of Dumb ****s you and teger are, totaly stupid
ingnoramuses. FACT, 94-96 % of the power consumed by incandesants is
output as HEAT, not light you see or use. CFLs are 65-75% more
efficent. FACT, 11, 100 w incandesants output the same heat as a 1000w
resistance heater. FACT, for most of the US Ng is now about half the
price of Ng per BTU. FACT, incandesants waste 75% more energy than
Flourescents. So keep heating your house this summer with
incandesants, and keep running that AC more to remove that heat your
incandesants enter in your home, just Keep a wastin and paying a
higher electric bill. Im laughing hard at this stupidity you two keep
posting.
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On Apr 23, 2:58*pm, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 2:28*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:


On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


Almost all of ours are 60W, though there are 4-12 per fixture. *;-)


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... *When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! *The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. *CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


Yep. *I don't like any CFLs I've seen. *They're ugly in expensive
light fixtures, as well. *No thanks.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


;-)- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. *You need to
*think*.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hey dumbs ass, .45c a piece, 9 yr warranty, 75% electric use
reduction, and if you think HD, GE, Phillips etc etc will go broke
then a cave is your best home option. You dont think.
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ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 3:00 pm, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 2:35 pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 23, 7:19 am, Tegger wrote:
ransley wrote :
On Apr 20, 5:25 pm, Tegger wrote:
I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.
--
Tegger
And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.
Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.
Run 11-100 w incandesants
Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.
and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat
Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.
Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.
And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.
CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.
I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.
With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.
Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...
--
Tegger
Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,

Cool! They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?

IOW, you're a liar.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.

I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Dam what kind of Dumb ****s you and teger are, totaly stupid
ingnoramuses. FACT, 94-96 % of the power consumed by incandesants is
output as HEAT, not light you see or use. CFLs are 65-75% more
efficent. FACT, 11, 100 w incandesants output the same heat as a 1000w
resistance heater. FACT, for most of the US Ng is now about half the
price of Ng per BTU. FACT, incandesants waste 75% more energy than
Flourescents. So keep heating your house this summer with
incandesants, and keep running that AC more to remove that heat your
incandesants enter in your home, just Keep a wastin and paying a
higher electric bill. Im laughing hard at this stupidity you two keep
posting.


Holy cow, a 100w light bulb which draws less than 1 amp puts
out more heat than a 1,000w heater drawing 9 amps? I should
get rid of the CFL lights I have and heat the house with 100w
light bulbs next winter and save a lot of money, thanks for
the tip! Dang! I'm gonna save so much money I'll have to call
the newspapers and TV stations so they can inform everyone that
the energy crisis is over! I knew the coming government ban on
100w light bulbs was a conspiracy by government and energy
companies to rip of consumers. SOUND THE ALARM! WE WON'T LET
THEM GET AWAY WITH IT!

TDD
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ransley wrote in
:


snip


Dam what kind of Dumb ****s you and teger are, totaly stupid
ingnoramuses. FACT, 94-96 % of the power consumed by incandesants is
output as HEAT, not light you see or use.




But, as I keep pointing out (very politely, mind you), the primary problem
is that the /dollar values/ in question are very small, regardless of what
the percentages are.


snip


Im laughing hard at this stupidity you two keep
posting.




You're not laughing, you're absolutely apoplectic with anger that I choose
not to agree with you, and wish instead to go my own way with
incandescents. You probably regard my viewpoint as horribly immoral.



--
Tegger
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ransley wrote in
:



Her again your logic is absent, the savings is not trivial when you
cut your bill 40-60% and who pays 300 a month for general electric use
without AC. Im in a 3500 sq ft house with a now 35$ bill ,CFLs inside,
out, and house and tree lighting. wake up and get with reality. Go to
HD and price and buy a few packs of soft white " green colored packs"
of cfls and stop paying that utility co an arm and a leg every year.



If CFLs were truly that much of an improvement over incandescents, it would
have been unnecessary for lobbyists all over the First World to talk
government employees into forcing the peple into using them.


--
Tegger


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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:39:59 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 23, 2:58*pm, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 2:28*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 23, 9:58*am, keith wrote:


On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


Almost all of ours are 60W, though there are 4-12 per fixture. *;-)


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... *When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! *The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. *CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


Yep. *I don't like any CFLs I've seen. *They're ugly in expensive
light fixtures, as well. *No thanks.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


;-)- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


.45c a bulb, 1.85 a four pack for HD CFLs, you need to do some
learnin.


For cheap crap that looks like hell, will *not* last 9 years (and the
company won't anyway), and is a fire trap, perhaps. *You need to
*think*.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hey dumbs ass, .45c a piece, 9 yr warranty, 75% electric use
reduction, and if you think HD, GE, Phillips etc etc will go broke
then a cave is your best home option. You dont think.


Sorry, lying is not thinking.
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 05:28:31 +0000 (UTC), (Don Klipstein)
wrote:

In ,
keith wrote in part:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


SNIP to here

Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Our heat pumps will "run" seven or eight months a year... When in use
they don't often get shut down at night (though the thermostat will
cycle).

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


Yep.


It costs about half as much to heat a home with a heat pump as it does
with resistive heating. And in most areas, it costs less to heat a home
with gas or oil than it does with resistive heating.


The "half as much" applies to a small outside temperature band where less heat
is actually needed. Yes, that drops the cost of the "wasted" incandescent
electricity by "50%" instead of 100% and a similar amount with other heat
sources. Something the CFL idiots never take into account. That still
doesn't get us to "ransley's" 50% electricity savings he's trying to tell us
that is somehow "normal".

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


Perzactly! The average bulb in our house is likely on for 2 minutes
per day with only the bathroom lights on for anything close to an hour
per day. CFLs really suck in our application; won't have them.


What? No need for lighting for long outside a bathroom in a house in a
location that needs heat 7-8 months out of the year?


It's time for you to try thinking, Don. Heat pumps are not only used in
heating season.

SNIP from here


Use a proper sig separator.
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 06:02:19 +0000 (UTC), (Don Klipstein)
wrote:

In ,
keith wrote:

On Apr 23, 2:35*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:

ransley wrote in news:
:

On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:

I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.

Tegger

And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for
a apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.

Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.

Run 11-100 w incandesants

Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.

and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat

Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.

Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.

And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.

CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.

I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.

With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.

Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...

Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,


Cool! They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?


IOW, you're a liar.


CFLs replacing incandescents save on net energy costs, even when heat
pumps, water heaters, and ovens are included.


Insignificant.

Heat pumps deliver around twice as much heating from a given amount of
electricity consumption as resistive heaters do, since about half the
heat that heat pumps put out is pumped in from outside rather than heat
from converting electrical energy to heat energy.


Duh! You have a command of the obvious, anyway.

Since incandescent household lighting has very little of its heat
heating the water in water heaters or the contents of ovens, I am prone
to take a dim view of those advocating incandescents over CFL on the heat
of incandescent home lighting being good for water heaters and ovens.


Either you aren't reading or your biases are making you blind. No one is
advocating incandescent bulbs because they save electricity. CFLs are ugly,
the light is ugly, are slow to start, can't be used in many fixtures, and are
expensive, no matter what "ransley" says.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. *The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! *I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.


I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.


As if CFL advocates don't in light of the above?


Right. With your stupid comment about heat pumps only being used in heating
season and your blindness to the real argument, you've joined that club.
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:37:33 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Apr 23, 3:00*pm, keith wrote:
On Apr 23, 2:35*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 23, 7:19*am, Tegger wrote:


ransley wrote :


On Apr 20, 5:25*pm, Tegger wrote:


I am happy to leave CFLs on the store shelf for others to buy.


--
Tegger


And you are so blissfully happy paying 75% more for electricity for a
apliance that outputs near 95% of its energy consumed as heat.


Yep. Because in actual dollar terms, that 75% is a trivial amount of
money.


Run 11-100 w incandesants


Most of our incandescents are 40 and 60 watt. We do have a couple of
Tri-lites that go up to 150, but they're normally on at the 100W
setting.


and be happy knowing you AC this summer has to
remove that extra 1000w of heat


Well, that's part of the point. Generally speaking, when I need my
bulbs, the A/C is off. When I need my A/C, the bulbs are off.


Moreover, in the winter, when the need for the bulbs is greatest, the
heat from the bulbs reduces the need for the furnace, so my gas bill is
lower.


And we follow the ancient (and apparently forgotten) precept of turning
the lights off when we leave a room, so there are few bulbs left on
regularly. With incandescents, I can do that. Snap, it's on. Snap, it's
off. No waiting.


CR and Popular Mechanics Mag did
reviews and dont agree with your happiness on color rendition of life
expectancy.


I see threads in this groups with comaplints about color unless you buy
/just/ the right kind of bulb. And being in people's homes with CFLs, I
have to disagree with CR. Also, CR is hard left-wing and as religiously
"green" as they come, so their judgements are unlikely to be bias-free.


With HDs 9 yr warranty my HD soft whites will be free
forever , be happy, stay ignorant.


Except that you had to pay ten times the cost of incandescents to get
that 9-year warranty...


--
Tegger


Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped
50-60%,


Cool! *They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too!
Hows that work?

IOW, you're a liar.

I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who
would not love a 50% reduction. *The heat is generated, you put it in,
whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no
lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! *I bet you never did a
cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the
US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought
why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And
at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know
any facts you speak of.


I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Dam what kind of Dumb ****s you and teger are, totaly stupid
ingnoramuses.


There are none so blind as those that will not see, ransley.

FACT, 94-96 % of the power consumed by incandesants is
output as HEAT, not light you see or use.


No, dumbass, *ALL* of it is. Just as *ALL* of the output of CFLs is heat
(yes, less of it).

CFLs are 65-75% more efficent.


Whoopie!

FACT, 11, 100 w incandesants output the same heat as a 1000w
resistance heater.


Wow, another master of the obvious.

FACT, for most of the US Ng is now about half the
price of Ng per BTU.


What *are* you yammering about?

FACT, incandesants waste 75% more energy than
Flourescents.


So what? That electricity is absolutely *trivial* compared to the heat pump,
water heater, oven, and plasma TV.

So keep heating your house this summer with
incandesants, and keep running that AC more to remove that heat your
incandesants enter in your home, just Keep a wastin and paying a
higher electric bill. Im laughing hard at this stupidity you two keep
posting.


Idiot. Light bulbs are *rarely* turned on in cooling season[*]. That time of
year has more light, though I can understand that the blind can't see that.
[*] and when they are, I want light *now*, not in fifteen minutes because in
fifteen minutes they'll have been off for at least ten.
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Default LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:36:32 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:

ransley wrote in
:


snip


Dam what kind of Dumb ****s you and teger are, totaly stupid
ingnoramuses. FACT, 94-96 % of the power consumed by incandesants is
output as HEAT, not light you see or use.




But, as I keep pointing out (very politely, mind you), the primary problem
is that the /dollar values/ in question are very small, regardless of what
the percentages are.


That is the only percentage that matters. Ransley is a liar with his 50%
*overall* savings with the only change being CFLs.

snip


Im laughing hard at this stupidity you two keep
posting.




You're not laughing, you're absolutely apoplectic with anger that I choose
not to agree with you, and wish instead to go my own way with
incandescents. You probably regard my viewpoint as horribly immoral.


That's the way with watermelons.
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