I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI protected.
I do a lot of work with pumps, and from my experience, about 1 in 10 sump
pumps will trip a GFCI, when brand new, right out of the box. You have two
choices: Cheat, and replace the GFCI with a standard outlet, or cut the
plug off of the pump and hard wire it with a switch to shut it off, which
wouldn't require GFCI protection

For whats its worth during selling home 2 seperate home inspectors
wqrote up my sump pump

first for no GFCI.......... sale fell thru........

\but I installed GFCI, second home inspector wrote it up saying you
should never GFCI a sump pump. second buyer bought home anyway......

I beleve a single non GFCI outlet is proper

wrote in message
...
For whats its worth during selling home 2 seperate home inspectors
wqrote up my sump pump

first for no GFCI.......... sale fell thru........

\but I installed GFCI, second home inspector wrote it up saying you
should never GFCI a sump pump. second buyer bought home anyway......

I beleve a single non GFCI outlet is proper


Home inspectors are not by any stretch, electrical inspectors. If you had
five different ones, you'd probably get five different opinions.
Typically, electrical wiring is inspected and certified, when installed, and
grandfathered until such a time when changes are made to it, otherwise,
virtually all the wiring in a home that isn't 90 degree, would have to be
replaced. If the outlet that you plug your pump into was installed before
GFCI protection was required, there is most likely no legal reason why you
should have to replace it.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7
1/2 feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
protected. I do a lot of work with pumps, and from my experience, about 1
in 10 sump pumps will trip a GFCI, when brand new, right out of the box.
You have two choices: Cheat, and replace the GFCI with a standard outlet,
or cut the plug off of the pump and hard wire it with a switch to shut it
off, which wouldn't require GFCI protection

Thanks. I may end up going with the first option, "Cheat, and replace the
GFCI with a standard outlet", since having a sump pump that trips the GFCI
when in use doesn't make sense.

I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard wiring
it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because the sump pump I
have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I assume one is power to the
pump and the other is from the float switch. If I did that approach, would
I have to have a shut-off switch added to the circuit, or would the
dedicated sump pump circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
15-amp 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it
is a duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7
1/2 feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
protected. I do a lot of work with pumps, and from my experience, about 1
in 10 sump pumps will trip a GFCI, when brand new, right out of the box.
You have two choices: Cheat, and replace the GFCI with a standard outlet,
or cut the plug off of the pump and hard wire it with a switch to shut it
off, which wouldn't require GFCI protection

Thanks. I may end up going with the first option, "Cheat, and replace the
GFCI with a standard outlet", since having a sump pump that trips the GFCI
when in use doesn't make sense.

I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard
wiring it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because the
sump pump I have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I assume one
is power to the pump and the other is from the float switch. If I did
that approach, would I have to have a shut-off switch added to the
circuit, or would the dedicated sump pump circuit breaker be sufficient to
serve as the shut-off?

It would require a means of disconnect within 50 feet of the pump and
within sight of it. You could also install a lock on the circuit breaker

On Dec 17, 12:51*am, "Jay-T" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...







"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. *It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7
1/2 feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
protected. I do a lot of work with pumps, and from my experience, about 1
in 10 sump pumps will trip a GFCI, when brand new, right out of the box..
You have two choices: Cheat, and replace the GFCI with a standard outlet,
or cut the plug off of the pump and hard wire it with a switch to shut it
off, which wouldn't require GFCI protection

Thanks. *I may end up going with the first option, "Cheat, and replace the
GFCI with a standard outlet", since having a sump pump that trips the GFCI
when in use doesn't make sense.

I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard wiring
it. *But, I would have to figure out how to do that because the sump pump I
have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I assume one is power to the
pump and the other is from the float switch. *If I did that approach, would
I have to have a shut-off switch added to the circuit, or would the
dedicated sump pump circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Just make sure that the GFCI doesn't feed other outlets downstream.
If it does and you eliminate it from the sump pump outlet, make sure
to re-install it in the next downstream outlet.

I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?


*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because people will plug
things in no matter where the receptacle is and what it is for. I have seen
plenty of extension cords hanging from garage ceilings to agree with the
requirement that garage door opener receptacles be GFI protected.

Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard way. I
suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal experience in this
case.

My thought is that there should be another type of receptacle for the sump
pump such as a twist lock without GFI protection. That would make the
receptacle unavailable for general use and keep it for sump pump use only
and thus eliminate the potential damage from nuisance tripping. If GFI
protection is required for the pump, an equipment GFI can be installed along
with the twist lock receptacle. An equipment GFI does not have the same low
threshold for tripping as the one used for people protection and
consequently is less prone to nuisance tripping.

In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

2008 NEC, yes -- which IMHO is completely insane.
2005 and earlier NEC, no.

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

Won't matter.

*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because people will plug
things in no matter where the receptacle is and what it is for. I have seen
plenty of extension cords hanging from garage ceilings to agree with the
requirement that garage door opener receptacles be GFI protected.

Yes, but note that it also says "for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as
habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like."
[2008 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]

So put a TV, easy chair, and your beer fridge within a yard or two of the sump
pit, and you've turned that "portion or area of the basement" into a
"habitable room" -- which means that "for purposes of this section" it's no
longer "unfinished" and therefore *not* required to have a GFCI.

There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Note also that the *2005* NEC contains the same language, and additionally two
pertinent exceptions to the GFCI requirement that were removed in the 2008
Code: "Receptacles that are not readily accessible" and "Receptacles located
within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily
moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected..."

So if the governing authority in the OP's jurisdiction is the 2005 (or
earlier) Code and not 2008, he apparently has no worries.

The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
be GFI protected.


Not in Oregon. There are local amendments to this rule and a GFCI is not
required on a sump pump (in Oregon).

Check with your local electrical inspector.

To the O/P

does the pump trip the GFI whenever the pump is underwater, or only
during the on/off surge?

If it trips whenever the pump is underwater, then you may want to
investigate the source of the leakage. And don't put your hand in the
water when the pump is plugged in.


Mark

Doug Miller wrote:

There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.


Note also that the *2005* NEC contains the same language, and additionally two
pertinent exceptions to the GFCI requirement that were removed in the 2008
Code: "Receptacles that are not readily accessible" and "Receptacles located
within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily
moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected..."

So if the governing authority in the OP's jurisdiction is the 2005 (or
earlier) Code and not 2008, he apparently has no worries.

I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged it
is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.

I would call 7 1/2 feet high not "readily accessible". If it was
installed before the 2008 NEC and is a single receptacle it should be
compliant now. (And who is to say if a single receptacle is not what was
installed.)

Or if you are having any electrical work inspected, ask the inspector if
they would theoretically approve a single receptacle in that case. If
they would, have it inspected. An inspector has discretion to modify
what is required, and this is a reasonable modification. If passed, it
IMHO is compliant in the future.

--
bud--

Mark wrote:
To the O/P

does the pump trip the GFI whenever the pump is underwater, or only
during the on/off surge?

I am the OP. I do not know for sure when the sump pump trips the GFCI. I
own the property but another family lives there, not me. When I checked the
basement recently, there was water in the basement in the sump pump area,
about 1-2 inches above the floor level. There was no power to the sump
pump, and resetting the GFCI made the pump turn on and it pumped out all of
the water without tripping the GFCI again.

The sump pump is on a dedicated circuit that goes directly from the main
panel (on its own 15-amp breaker) to the GFCI receptacle in the ceiling.
Nothing else is on that circuit -- no switches, no receptacles, etc.

The sump pump had been there for 3+ years and used to be plugged into a
regular, non-GFCI, outlet elsewhere in the basement with an extension cord.
During those 3 years, it never failed to work.

The new dedicated sump pump circuit with the ceiling GFCI outlet above the
sump pump was installed 6 months ago by a licensed electrician. I guess it
is possible that the pump tripped the GFCI some time during the last 6
months and no one noticed it. The family that lives there rarely goes into
the basement and may not have thought to check the basement for water after
a rain. But, my guess is that the GFCI was tripped more recently.

If it trips whenever the pump is underwater, then you may want to
investigate the source of the leakage. And don't put your hand in the
water when the pump is plugged in.


Mark

RBM wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message


I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard
wiring it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because
the sump pump I have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I
assume one is power to the pump and the other is from the float
switch. If I did that approach, would I have to have a shut-off
switch added to the circuit, or would the dedicated sump pump
circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?

It would require a means of disconnect within 50 feet of the pump and
within sight of it. You could also install a lock on the circuit
breaker.

Good, the main panel is less than 30 feet away and in direct sight of the
sump pump. The dedicated sump pump circuit breaker is very clearly marked
and is at the bottom of the panel away from the other circuit breakers. So,
I assume that would serve as the disconnect. I would rather do that than
have another switch somewhere that someone could accidentally turn off or
turn off intentionally and forget to turn it back on.

I would still have to figure out how the wiring in the sump pump plug is set
up. It's a molded plug and two cords go into it -- one from the back and
one from the side. I am guessing that the cord that ges into the side of
the plug is a switch loop coming up from the float, but I don't know. I
would have to figure that out if I decided to cut the plug off and hard wire
the sump pump.

wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:51 am, "Jay-T" wrote:

Just make sure that the GFCI doesn't feed other outlets downstream.
If it does and you eliminate it from the sump pump outlet, make sure
to re-install it in the next downstream outlet.

Thanks. The sump pump is on its own circuit and nothing else is on that
circuit -- no sitches, no outlets, etc.

John Grabowski wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
15-amp 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling,
and it is a duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the
National Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the
ceiling about 7 1/2 feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a
single receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with
the NEC?


*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
location be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because
people will plug things in no matter where the receptacle is and what
it is for. I have seen plenty of extension cords hanging from garage
ceilings to agree with the requirement that garage door opener
receptacles be GFI protected.
Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
experience in this case.

If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing information
is, I may just do that.

My thought is that there should be another type of receptacle for the
sump pump such as a twist lock without GFI protection. That would
make the receptacle unavailable for general use and keep it for sump
pump use only and thus eliminate the potential damage from nuisance
tripping. If GFI protection is required for the pump, an equipment
GFI can be installed along with the twist lock receptacle. An
equipment GFI does not have the same low threshold for tripping as
the one used for people protection and consequently is less prone to
nuisance tripping.

I think that is a good suggestion. It makes sense and it solves the problem
that is intended to be solved by the new NEC. Maybe you could write to the
NFPA too and submit your suggestion to them.

In terms of safety, one problem with the latest code for sump pumps in
unfinished basements is that the GFCI could cause the pump to fail and the
basement to flood. Then, there would be the newly-created hazard of someone
walking in the water and accidentally coming into contact with any
electrical power source in the basement.

bud-- wrote:

I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged
it is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.

I am having a little trouble figuring out the "single (not duplex) 15A
receptacle" option.

When I do a search for single 15-amp receptacles, all I see are receptacles
that have differently-shaped holes for the plug to go into -- there is a
ground hole and then 2 flat slots that are in the same line, not parallel
with each other. So, I would need a different style plug than the standard
one that is now on the sump pump.

Meanwhile, I can find a single 20-amp receptacle that has a slightly
different configuration than a standard 15-amp plug, but it looks like a
standard plug could go into it (I don't know if that's true). But, then I
would have a receptacle that looks like it is for a 20-amp circuit, but the
existing sump pump circuit is on a 15-amp circuit breaker. I would have to
go to the property and check, but I suspect that since it is a dedicated
15-amp circuit that is only for, and only connected to, the sump pump, it
probably is wired with 14/2 wire not 12/2 wire.

On Dec 17, 11:29*am, "Jay-T" wrote:
bud-- wrote:

I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged
it is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.

I am having a little trouble figuring out the "single (not duplex) 15A
receptacle" option.

When I do a search for single 15-amp receptacles, all I see are receptacles
that have differently-shaped holes for the plug to go into -- there is a
ground hole and then 2 flat slots that are in the same line, not parallel
with each other. *So, I would need a different style plug than the standard
one that is now on the sump pump.

Meanwhile, I can find a single 20-amp receptacle that has a slightly
different configuration than a standard 15-amp plug, but it looks like a
standard plug could go into it (I don't know if that's true). *But, then I
would have a receptacle that looks like it is for a 20-amp circuit, but the
existing sump pump circuit is on a 15-amp circuit breaker. *I would have to
go to the property and check, but I suspect that since it is a dedicated
15-amp circuit that is only for, and only connected to, the sump pump, it
probably is wired with 14/2 wire not 12/2 wire.

If the area is an unfinished area/workshop, then the exception to the
rule would seem to apply, if I read earlier posts correctly.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message


I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard
wiring it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because
the sump pump I have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I
assume one is power to the pump and the other is from the float
switch. If I did that approach, would I have to have a shut-off
switch added to the circuit, or would the dedicated sump pump
circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?

It would require a means of disconnect within 50 feet of the pump and
within sight of it. You could also install a lock on the circuit
breaker.

Good, the main panel is less than 30 feet away and in direct sight of the
sump pump. The dedicated sump pump circuit breaker is very clearly marked
and is at the bottom of the panel away from the other circuit breakers.
So, I assume that would serve as the disconnect. I would rather do that
than have another switch somewhere that someone could accidentally turn
off or turn off intentionally and forget to turn it back on.

I would still have to figure out how the wiring in the sump pump plug is
set up. It's a molded plug and two cords go into it -- one from the back
and one from the side. I am guessing that the cord that ges into the side
of the plug is a switch loop coming up from the float, but I don't know.
I would have to figure that out if I decided to cut the plug off and hard
wire the sump pump.
If you cut the plugs off, you'll find a three wire cord to the motor, and
as you suspected, a two wire cord going to the float, pretty self
explanatory

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7
1/2
feet from the floor?

2008 NEC, yes -- which IMHO is completely insane.
2005 and earlier NEC, no.

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

Won't matter.

*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because people will plug
things in no matter where the receptacle is and what it is for. I have
seen
plenty of extension cords hanging from garage ceilings to agree with the
requirement that garage door opener receptacles be GFI protected.

Yes, but note that it also says "for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as
habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like."
[2008 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]

So put a TV, easy chair, and your beer fridge within a yard or two of the
sump
pit, and you've turned that "portion or area of the basement" into a
"habitable room" -- which means that "for purposes of this section" it's
no
longer "unfinished" and therefore *not* required to have a GFCI.


To be technically correct, he may then have to install additional outlets,
as per habitable rooms rules





There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to
"125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Note also that the *2005* NEC contains the same language, and additionally
two
pertinent exceptions to the GFCI requirement that were removed in the 2008
Code: "Receptacles that are not readily accessible" and "Receptacles
located
within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not
easily
moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected..."

So if the governing authority in the OP's jurisdiction is the 2005 (or
earlier) Code and not 2008, he apparently has no worries.

In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.

So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.

I would call 7 1/2 feet high not "readily accessible".

So would the Code -- the definition of "readily accessible" includes not
needing portable ladders to reach it.

In article , "Jay-T" wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
experience in this case.

If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing information
is, I may just do that.

NFPA = National Fire Protection Agency.
www.nfpa.org

On Dec 16, 2:25*pm, "Jay-T" wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. *It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

My new home passed without it in 1998, things may have changed.

I personally would not want any critical piece of equipment like that
on a GFCI. Mkes no sense, its in the hole anyway.

RickH wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:25 pm, "Jay-T" wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

My new home passed without it in 1998, things may have changed.

I personally would not want any critical piece of equipment like that
on a GFCI. Mkes no sense, its in the hole anyway.

If the Sump Pump or Freezer have 3-wire grounded cords, the shouldn't
need a GFCI anyway.
My Sump Pump and all three refrigerator/freezers are on non-GFCI outlets.

Jay-T wrote:


It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
protected.

Unless it is a dedicated SINGLE outlet. Sump pumps CAN'T be on GFCI's.

On Dec 16, 2:25*pm, "Jay-T" wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. *It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

You already flooded so you know the answer. Dont use one on a frige or
sump pump.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Jay-T wrote:


It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
protected.

Unless it is a dedicated SINGLE outlet. Sump pumps CAN'T be on GFCI's.

The NEC no longer has any exceptions

I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged
it is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.

I am having a little trouble figuring out the "single (not duplex) 15A
receptacle" option.

When I do a search for single 15-amp receptacles, all I see are
receptacles that have differently-shaped holes for the plug to go into --
there is a ground hole and then 2 flat slots that are in the same line,
not parallel with each other. So, I would need a different style plug
than the standard one that is now on the sump pump.

Meanwhile, I can find a single 20-amp receptacle that has a slightly
different configuration than a standard 15-amp plug, but it looks like a
standard plug could go into it (I don't know if that's true). But, then I
would have a receptacle that looks like it is for a 20-amp circuit, but
the existing sump pump circuit is on a 15-amp circuit breaker. I would
have to go to the property and check, but I suspect that since it is a
dedicated 15-amp circuit that is only for, and only connected to, the sump
pump, it probably is wired with 14/2 wire not 12/2 wire.


*I had the same problem several months ago trying to find a 15 amp, 120 volt
single receptacle. My usual supply house doesn't stock them anymore and
apparently Home Depot does not or was out of stock at the time. I wound up
going to another supply house that had them. They are available, but you
may have to look more. The fifteen amp that you found is for 220 volts and
you should not put a 20 amp single there.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
John Grabowski wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
15-amp 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling,
and it is a duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
basement flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the
National Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the
ceiling about 7 1/2 feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a
single receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with
the NEC?


*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
location be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because
people will plug things in no matter where the receptacle is and what
it is for. I have seen plenty of extension cords hanging from garage
ceilings to agree with the requirement that garage door opener
receptacles be GFI protected.
Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
experience in this case.

If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing
information is, I may just do that.



The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your suggestion
on the form below:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...oposalForm.doc





My thought is that there should be another type of receptacle for the
sump pump such as a twist lock without GFI protection. That would
make the receptacle unavailable for general use and keep it for sump
pump use only and thus eliminate the potential damage from nuisance
tripping. If GFI protection is required for the pump, an equipment
GFI can be installed along with the twist lock receptacle. An
equipment GFI does not have the same low threshold for tripping as
the one used for people protection and consequently is less prone to
nuisance tripping.

I think that is a good suggestion. It makes sense and it solves the
problem that is intended to be solved by the new NEC. Maybe you could
write to the NFPA too and submit your suggestion to them.

In terms of safety, one problem with the latest code for sump pumps in
unfinished basements is that the GFCI could cause the pump to fail and the
basement to flood. Then, there would be the newly-created hazard of
someone walking in the water and accidentally coming into contact with any
electrical power source in the basement.

John Grabowski wrote:
I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle.
If at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is
flagged it is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.

I am having a little trouble figuring out the "single (not duplex)
15A receptacle" option.

When I do a search for single 15-amp receptacles, all I see are
receptacles that have differently-shaped holes for the plug to go
into -- there is a ground hole and then 2 flat slots that are in the
same line, not parallel with each other. So, I would need a
different style plug than the standard one that is now on the sump
pump. Meanwhile, I can find a single 20-amp receptacle that has a
slightly
different configuration than a standard 15-amp plug, but it looks
like a standard plug could go into it (I don't know if that's true).
But, then I would have a receptacle that looks like it is for a
20-amp circuit, but the existing sump pump circuit is on a 15-amp
circuit breaker. I would have to go to the property and check, but
I suspect that since it is a dedicated 15-amp circuit that is only
for, and only connected to, the sump pump, it probably is wired with
14/2 wire not 12/2 wire.


*I had the same problem several months ago trying to find a 15 amp,
120 volt single receptacle. My usual supply house doesn't stock them
anymore and apparently Home Depot does not or was out of stock at the
time. I wound up going to another supply house that had them. They
are available, but you may have to look more.

Thanks. I'll keep looking around.

The fifteen amp that
you found is for 220 volts and you should not put a 20 amp single
there.

Oops.

John Grabowski wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote If I figure out who the NFPA is,
and what their contact/mailing
information is, I may just do that.

The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your
suggestion on the form below:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...oposalForm.doc


Thanks. I'll do the form and submit it. I'm not going to try to create the
actual suggested wording. I'll just write something that explains what my
suggestion is and why.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.

So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.


You usually have good advice. This one isn't.

The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit. In addition to higher current
the trip time can be longer. I would particularly wonder about the line
cords.

A smart person uses UL listed equipment.

--
bud--

In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,

single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.

Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.

So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.


You usually have good advice. This one isn't.

The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit.

I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for 20A".
Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.

In article , (RBM) writes:
|
| "Steve Barker" wrote in message
| ...
| Jay-T wrote:
|
|
| It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
| requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
| protected.
|
| Unless it is a dedicated SINGLE outlet. Sump pumps CAN'T be on GFCI's.
|
| The NEC no longer has any exceptions

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:58:42 -0500, gfretwell wrote:
The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your suggestion
on the form below:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF...oposalForm.doc


You will be writing for the 2014 code cycle. The 2011 is closed.

.... and the world ends in 2012. Crap. ;-)

"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message
...
In article , (RBM) writes:
|
| "Steve Barker" wrote in message
| ...
| Jay-T wrote:
|
|
| It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
| requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
| protected.
|
| Unless it is a dedicated SINGLE outlet. Sump pumps CAN'T be on
GFCI's.
|
| The NEC no longer has any exceptions

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com


No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for 240
volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.

You usually have good advice. This one isn't.

The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit.

I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for 20A".
Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.


The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.

A smart person uses UL listed equipment.

--
bud--

In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to
"125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.

You usually have good advice. This one isn't.

The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit.

I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for 20A".

Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.


The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt.

Go have a look at the line cord on a sump pump. Tell me what gauge the
conductors are.

In article , bud-- wrote:

The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.

You're obviously another one of those misguided souls who believes that
breakers are there to protect the stuff that's plugged in to the receptacles.

Repeat after me: Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring.
Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to
protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to protect the branch
circuit wiring.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud-- wrote:

The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.

You're obviously another one of those misguided souls who believes that
breakers are there to protect the stuff that's plugged in to the receptacles.

Repeat after me: Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring.
Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to
protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to protect the branch
circuit wiring.

Hummm, is that true of GFCI and arc fault breakers too? I be scared 'O
lectwisity. Dat's why I don't be messin wit nuttin over 13.8kv.

TDD