In article , wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:29:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to
"125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.

You usually have good advice. This one isn't.

The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit.

I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for
20A".

Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.


The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt.

Go have a look at the line cord on a sump pump. Tell me what gauge the
conductors are.


Then look at 240.5(B)(2)

(2) Fixture Wire. Fixture wire shall be permitted to be tapped to the
branch-circuit conductor of a branch circuit in accordance with the
following:
(1) 20-ampere circuits — 18 AWG, up to 15 m (50 ft) of run length
(2) 20-ampere circuits — 16 AWG, up to 30 m (100 ft) of run length
(3) 20-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger
(4) 30-ampere circuits — 14 AWG and larger

Does not apply. We're talking about a cord-and-plug connection. A line cord is
*not* "fixture wire".

In my opinion the "Electrical code" is writing by bunch of F------ morons
Yes we need some type of guidance but some of codes are so stupid
and unusable it is not funny it is ridicules.
Because some dumb ******* did something stupid got self kill,
then they punished all of people by putting some nuisance code
that all rest of us got to pay for it and those are facts, the system in
this
Country is that it don't make any since. I do not care if any one agree with
me or not, over 40 years working for industry I seen it all.
But then again their are some license Electricians doing such slapy work
I would not just take their license, but put them in jail for few years.




"Bill" wrote in message
...
The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
location be GFI protected.


Not in Oregon. There are local amendments to this rule and a GFCI is not
required on a sump pump (in Oregon).

Check with your local electrical inspector.

RBM wrote:
"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?


No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for
240 volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races.

Thanks. I did read something about that on an old forum when I did an
Internet search prior to my original post. I guess the concept is that the
purpose of the GFCI's in unfinished basements is to prevent ordinary users
from a shock hazard if they unplug an appliance or device (including a sump
pump) and use the receptacle for another purpose. And, I guess they assume
that would not apply for a 220-volt receptacle.

Although that means I could change the whole circuit wiring to 220 volts,
and get a new 220-volt sump pump, I don't plan on doing that. One reason is
that if somehow the 220-volt is safe enough according to NEC for the actual
use of the sump pump (without unplugging it and plugging something else in),
then that would be no more safe than me just changing the 110-volt GFCI
outlet to a non-GFCI outlet (as long as no one unplugs that and plugs
something else in).

So, I guess I'll either cheat and change the existing GFCI to a non-GFCI
outlet, or I'll hard wire it since it is less than 30 feet away from, and in
direct line of sight with, the main panel circuit breaker for the sump pump.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , bud-- wrote:

The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.

You're obviously another one of those misguided souls who believes that
breakers are there to protect the stuff that's plugged in to the receptacles.

Repeat after me: Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring.
Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to
protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to protect the branch
circuit wiring.

That ignores what I wrote.

Using time-trip curves for SquareD, and based on over 1500 field
measurements made by UL, a short circuit at the end of a 6' #18 line
cord plugged into a branch circuit is very likely to trip a 15 or 20A
breaker on "instantaneous". In all cases the breaker would trip in 3
seconds and in that case the fault current was 80A.

In fact, breakers do provide significant protection for "the stuff that
is plugged in to the receptacles". Why do you think the NEC has the tap
rules that were provided by gfretwell?

And GFCIs and AFCIs increase the protection for "the stuff that is
plugged in to the receptacles".

David Dini from UL has written "The branch circuit overcurrent
protective device (OCPD), (i.e. a fuse or circuit breaker), is
specifically designed to protect electrical circuits, including the
branch circuit conductors and flexible cords, against the unwanted
effects of overcurrents."

------------
Regarding your kludge of the sump pump on a 30A circuit - if the pump
was UL labeled (highly likely) it is a code violation under 110.3-B.
Your point of a 30A circuit was to avoid a code violation.

--
bud--

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?


No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for
240 volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races.

Thanks. I did read something about that on an old forum when I did an
Internet search prior to my original post. I guess the concept is that
the purpose of the GFCI's in unfinished basements is to prevent ordinary
users from a shock hazard if they unplug an appliance or device (including
a sump pump) and use the receptacle for another purpose. And, I guess
they assume that would not apply for a 220-volt receptacle.

Although that means I could change the whole circuit wiring to 220 volts,
and get a new 220-volt sump pump, I don't plan on doing that. One reason
is that if somehow the 220-volt is safe enough according to NEC for the
actual use of the sump pump (without unplugging it and plugging something
else in), then that would be no more safe than me just changing the
110-volt GFCI outlet to a non-GFCI outlet (as long as no one unplugs that
and plugs something else in).

So, I guess I'll either cheat and change the existing GFCI to a non-GFCI
outlet, or I'll hard wire it since it is less than 30 feet away from, and
in direct line of sight with, the main panel circuit breaker for the sump
pump.


This is the point that John Grabowski was making. For things like essential
pumps, we should be able to use something like a twist lok outlet and plug.
This would prevent improper use of a non gfci protected outlet

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?


No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for
240 volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races.

Thanks. I did read something about that on an old forum when I did an
Internet search prior to my original post. I guess the concept is that
the purpose of the GFCI's in unfinished basements is to prevent ordinary
users from a shock hazard if they unplug an appliance or device
(including a sump pump) and use the receptacle for another purpose. And,
I guess they assume that would not apply for a 220-volt receptacle.

Although that means I could change the whole circuit wiring to 220 volts,
and get a new 220-volt sump pump, I don't plan on doing that. One reason
is that if somehow the 220-volt is safe enough according to NEC for the
actual use of the sump pump (without unplugging it and plugging something
else in), then that would be no more safe than me just changing the
110-volt GFCI outlet to a non-GFCI outlet (as long as no one unplugs that
and plugs something else in).

So, I guess I'll either cheat and change the existing GFCI to a non-GFCI
outlet, or I'll hard wire it since it is less than 30 feet away from, and
in direct line of sight with, the main panel circuit breaker for the sump
pump.


This is the point that John Grabowski was making. For things like essential
pumps, we should be able to use something like a twist lok outlet and plug.
This would prevent improper use of a non gfci protected outlet

I agree.

In ,
Jay-T typed:
"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message

Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?


No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit
for 240 volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the
races.

Thanks. I did read something about that on an old forum when I did
an Internet search prior to my original post. I guess the concept
is that the purpose of the GFCI's in unfinished basements is to
prevent ordinary users from a shock hazard if they unplug an
appliance or device (including a sump pump) and use the receptacle
for another purpose. And, I guess they assume that would not apply
for a 220-volt receptacle.

Although that means I could change the whole circuit wiring to 220
volts, and get a new 220-volt sump pump, I don't plan on doing
that. One reason is that if somehow the 220-volt is safe enough
according to NEC for the actual use of the sump pump (without
unplugging it and plugging something else in), then that would be
no more safe than me just changing the 110-volt GFCI outlet to a
non-GFCI outlet (as long as no one unplugs that and plugs something
else in).

So, I guess I'll either cheat and change the existing GFCI to a
non-GFCI outlet, or I'll hard wire it since it is less than 30 feet
away from, and in direct line of sight with, the main panel circuit
breaker for the sump pump.


This is the point that John Grabowski was making. For things like
essential pumps, we should be able to use something like a twist lok
outlet and plug. This would prevent improper use of a non gfci
protected outlet

I agree.

Good point; thanks.

--
--
Live in the moment;
be open to the possibilities
that life has to offer.

On Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 2:25:37 PM UTC-6, Jay-T wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

An EC&M Article directly addressing this
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-...rsonnel?page=2

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:28:06 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 2:25:37 PM UTC-6, Jay-T wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

An EC&M Article directly addressing this
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-...rsonnel?page=2
Why would you EVER put something like a sump pump A) on a shared
circuit, and / or B) - on a GFCI????

And with a ceiling mounted plug for the sump pump, nothing less than a
twist-lock should even be considered - - - -Either an L5-15 or L5-20

On 12/11/2015 02:28 PM, wrote:

I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

An EC&M Article directly addressing this
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-...rsonnel?page=2

Taking due note of the fact that the original question was posted six
years ago...

What about a duplex outlet supplying both the 120V sump pump and the
charger for the battery-powered backup pump? Does that circuit need a
GFCI breaker?

Perce

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 2:28:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 2:25:37 PM UTC-6, Jay-T wrote:
I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?




An EC&M Article directly addressing this
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-...rsonnel?page=2

Article 620.85 applies to elevators, dumbwaiters, and escalators. The sump pump that is referred to is one that might be located in a pit under this type of equipment, NOT in a residence.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

"John G" wrote in message

Article 620.85 applies to elevators, dumbwaiters, and escalators. The
sump pump that is referred to is one that might be located in a pit
under this type of equipment, NOT in a residence.

When I was angsting over what to protect and how, I came across this article
from the Mike Holt archives. Since it deals with dwellings, I assume this
is the relevant section (sump pumps at very end):

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...l~20020105.htm
Dwelling Units
210.8 Ground-Fault Protection
(A) Dwelling Units. (1) Bathroom Area Receptacles. GFCI protection is
required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a
dwelling unit. Figure 8


a.. Author's Comment: Proposals to allow receptacles for dedicated
equipment in the bathroom area to be exempted from the GFCI protection rules
were rejected because the code panel members felt that it was not in the
interest of safety to allow appliances without GFCI protection in this area.

(2) Garage and Accessory Building Receptacles. GFCI protection is required
for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in garages and grade-level portions of
unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of
a dwelling unit. Figure 9

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for the garage
door opener.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required in accessory buildings,
but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it must be
GFCI-protected. Figure 10

(3) Outdoor Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outdoors of
dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs
shall be GFCI-protected. Figure 11


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required outdoors of a
multifamily dwelling, but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it
must be GFCI-protected. Figure 12

Exception: GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting
or deicing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are
supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28. Figure 13

(4) Crawl Space Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed
within a dwelling unit crawl space must be GFCI-protected.


a.. Author's Comment: The Code does not require a 15A or 20A, 125V
receptacle to be installed in the crawl space, except when air-conditioning
or heating equipment is installed in this area, see 210.63.

(5) Unfinished Basement Receptacles. GFCI protection is required for all 15A
and 20A, 125V receptacles in each unfinished portion of a basement not
intended as a habitable room, but used for storage or as a work area. Figure
14

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.

"Micky" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.

Good question. My own inclination would be to replace that dedicated duplex
sump pump outlet with a single twist lock outlet and plug so that if someone
decided to use that outlet for something else, it would be incompatible with
normal plugs. Whether they would remember to reconnect the twist lock plug
to the outlet after discovering that fact is anyone's guess. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"John G" wrote in message

Article 620.85 applies to elevators, dumbwaiters, and escalators. The
sump pump that is referred to is one that might be located in a pit
under this type of equipment, NOT in a residence.

When I was angsting over what to protect and how, I came across this article
from the Mike Holt archives. Since it deals with dwellings, I assume this
is the relevant section (sump pumps at very end):

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...l~20020105.htm
Dwelling Units
210.8 Ground-Fault Protection
(A) Dwelling Units. (1) Bathroom Area Receptacles. GFCI protection is
required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a
dwelling unit. Figure 8


a.. Author's Comment: Proposals to allow receptacles for dedicated
equipment in the bathroom area to be exempted from the GFCI protection rules
were rejected because the code panel members felt that it was not in the
interest of safety to allow appliances without GFCI protection in this area.

(2) Garage and Accessory Building Receptacles. GFCI protection is required
for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in garages and grade-level portions of
unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of
a dwelling unit. Figure 9

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for the garage
door opener.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required in accessory buildings,
but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it must be
GFCI-protected. Figure 10

(3) Outdoor Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outdoors of
dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs
shall be GFCI-protected. Figure 11


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required outdoors of a
multifamily dwelling, but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it
must be GFCI-protected. Figure 12

Exception: GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting
or deicing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are
supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28. Figure 13

(4) Crawl Space Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed
within a dwelling unit crawl space must be GFCI-protected.


a.. Author's Comment: The Code does not require a 15A or 20A, 125V
receptacle to be installed in the crawl space, except when air-conditioning
or heating equipment is installed in this area, see 210.63.

(5) Unfinished Basement Receptacles. GFCI protection is required for all 15A
and 20A, 125V receptacles in each unfinished portion of a basement not
intended as a habitable room, but used for storage or as a work area. Figure
14

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:31:32 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.

Good question. My own inclination would be to replace that dedicated duplex
sump pump outlet with a single twist lock outlet and plug so that if someone
decided to use that outlet for something else, it would be incompatible with
normal plugs. Whether they would remember to reconnect the twist lock plug
to the outlet after discovering that fact is anyone's guess. (-:

All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:00:49 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/11/2015 02:28 PM, wrote:

I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.

The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.

Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?

Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?

An EC&M Article directly addressing this
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-...rsonnel?page=2

Taking due note of the fact that the original question was posted six
years ago...

What about a duplex outlet supplying both the 120V sump pump and the
charger for the battery-powered backup pump? Does that circuit need a
GFCI breaker?

Perce
I would say since it is all for the sump pump it is still a dedicated
circuit and should be exempt from GFCI requirement. Using the
twistlock connections makes it unlikely that anything else might be
plugged into the circuit.
Not 100% sure of code requirements, but is how I would do it if I had
a house with a sump pump.

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:27:43 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
It is still a "dedicated circuit" but to be 100% legal I would
install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is
DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs.
(assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 00:20:09 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:27:43 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
It is still a "dedicated circuit" but to be 100% legal I would
install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is
DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs.
(assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)

I am not sure about what happens in the Great White North but in the
US those "dedicated outlet" exceptions are all gone and have been for
the last 3 cycles. The only exceptions now are for "ice melting
equipment" outside and alarm systems inside (basements crawl spaces
etc)

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:02:20 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 00:20:09 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:27:43 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
It is still a "dedicated circuit" but to be 100% legal I would
install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is
DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs.
(assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)

I am not sure about what happens in the Great White North but in the
US those "dedicated outlet" exceptions are all gone and have been for
the last 3 cycles. The only exceptions now are for "ice melting
equipment" outside and alarm systems inside (basements crawl spaces
etc)

Thanks all.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.

Indeed. Looking more closely that article appears to be from 2002. My bad.

So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI? I can see some
seriously bad results arising from putting a sump pump (or a refrigerator)
on a GFCI. Having said that, I haven't had a nuisance trip from a GFCI in
quite some time and I now wonder if the refrigerator that was causing the
trips wasn't actually suffering from real current leakage.

--
Bobby G.

Article 620.85 applies to elevators, dumbwaiters, and escalators. The
sump pump that is referred to is one that might be located in a pit
under this type of equipment, NOT in a residence.

When I was angsting over what to protect and how, I came across this article
from the Mike Holt archives. Since it deals with dwellings, I assume this
is the relevant section (sump pumps at very end):

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...l~20020105.htm
Dwelling Units
210.8 Ground-Fault Protection
(A) Dwelling Units. (1) Bathroom Area Receptacles. GFCI protection is
required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a
dwelling unit. Figure 8


a.. Author's Comment: Proposals to allow receptacles for dedicated
equipment in the bathroom area to be exempted from the GFCI protection rules
were rejected because the code panel members felt that it was not in the
interest of safety to allow appliances without GFCI protection in this area.

(2) Garage and Accessory Building Receptacles. GFCI protection is required
for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in garages and grade-level portions of
unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of
a dwelling unit. Figure 9

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for the garage
door opener.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required in accessory buildings,
but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it must be
GFCI-protected. Figure 10

(3) Outdoor Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outdoors of
dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs
shall be GFCI-protected. Figure 11


a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required outdoors of a
multifamily dwelling, but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it
must be GFCI-protected. Figure 12

Exception: GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting
or deicing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are
supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28. Figure 13

(4) Crawl Space Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed
within a dwelling unit crawl space must be GFCI-protected.


a.. Author's Comment: The Code does not require a 15A or 20A, 125V
receptacle to be installed in the crawl space, except when air-conditioning
or heating equipment is installed in this area, see 210.63.

(5) Unfinished Basement Receptacles. GFCI protection is required for all 15A
and 20A, 125V receptacles in each unfinished portion of a basement not
intended as a habitable room, but used for storage or as a work area. Figure
14

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

Yeah these are the old rules. Most of the exceptions have been eliminated in the 2011 and 2014 code updates.

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 5:47:33 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.

Indeed. Looking more closely that article appears to be from 2002. My bad.

So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI?

If it's in an unfinished basement, yes.

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

I am not sure I understand your comment. Twist locks, in my experience, can
be used for both 110 and 220v applications. I see them listed for 110v use:

Leviton 2311 Locking Plug, 20A, 125V, L5-20P, 2P3W

https://www.platt.com/platt-electric...px?zpid=161638

Whether or not the NEC approves of them for 120v applications is another
story I am not able to comment on other than I use them in several places in
my house and as I recall, they passed inspection (quite some time ago).

I made the suggestion twist locks to specifically deal with someone who
might unplug the sump pump to use for say a vacuum cleaner and then forgets
to reconnect the sump. Having once had a cleaning lady who plugged a 10A
cannister vac into a UPS outlet, there's merit in preventing people from
doing things like that. (-:

Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
need for a GFCI?

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:02:20 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 00:20:09 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:27:43 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a

Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
require GFCI?

dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
It is still a "dedicated circuit" but to be 100% legal I would
install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is
DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs.
(assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)

I am not sure about what happens in the Great White North but in the
US those "dedicated outlet" exceptions are all gone and have been for
the last 3 cycles. The only exceptions now are for "ice melting
equipment" outside and alarm systems inside (basements crawl spaces
etc)
They also only apply to "new construction". If the sump pump was
there and wired before the exemptions dissappeared the exemption still
stands - and doing as I suggested WILL pass a "condition inspection"

I just had a "condition inspection", called an "e-safe" for insurance
purposes here last month, and up here they have complicated things.
The ESA (Electrical safety Authority)enforces the common electrical
code, which would grandfather GFCI and AF requirements, but the new
e-safe regulations are implemented under the CSA (Canadian Standards
Association) which over-rides the code and requires GFCI for all
outlets within 6 feet of a faucet or sink and all exterior outlets
under something like 8 feet (2.5 meters) from the ground.

Unfinished basements and attached garages (not sure about detatched
since I don't have one) do not require GFCI and nor do "dedicated
outlets" for refrigerators and other devices - which do not need to be
"dedicated circuits"

So, on one circuit with a bathroom outlet, a refrigerator and an
outdoor outlet, there are 2 GFCI outlets and one standard outlet on
the same circuit.
This passed E-Safe inspection in November (and yes, I did need to pull
a permit to install the GFCI outlets)
Up here ANY work on aluminum wire, including like for like
replacements of switches, outlets, and luminaires requires a permit.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 05:31:09 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.

Indeed. Looking more closely that article appears to be from 2002. My bad.

So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI? I can see some
seriously bad results arising from putting a sump pump (or a refrigerator)
on a GFCI. Having said that, I haven't had a nuisance trip from a GFCI in
quite some time and I now wonder if the refrigerator that was causing the
trips wasn't actually suffering from real current leakage.
Just a real light coating of dust, absorbing a minor amount of
moisture on the compressor start cap will trip the GFCI.(particularly
if it is a metal can) Older fridges and frezers had metal can caps.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:43:44 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

stuff snipped

All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

I am not sure I understand your comment. Twist locks, in my experience, can
be used for both 110 and 220v applications. I see them listed for 110v use:

Leviton 2311 Locking Plug, 20A, 125V, L5-20P, 2P3W

https://www.platt.com/platt-electric...px?zpid=161638

Whether or not the NEC approves of them for 120v applications is another
story I am not able to comment on other than I use them in several places in
my house and as I recall, they passed inspection (quite some time ago).


There are specific twist lock configurations for each combination of
voltage and current, all having specific NEMA configuration numbers
which I included in my original recommendation - so yes, twist locks
ARE allowed by the NEC for 120 volt use.
I made the suggestion twist locks to specifically deal with someone who
might unplug the sump pump to use for say a vacuum cleaner and then forgets
to reconnect the sump. Having once had a cleaning lady who plugged a 10A
cannister vac into a UPS outlet, there's merit in preventing people from
doing things like that. (-:

Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
need for a GFCI?
The code only specifies 120 volt circuits.

On 2015-12-12, wrote:
All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump
pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
it afterwards.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roger Blake wrote in news:20151212094909
@news.eternal-september.org:

On 2015-12-12, wrote:
All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump
pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
it afterwards.


That's the best way to handle it. The GFIs are much too sensitive for
critical applications. We were fine without GFIs on sump pumps for 75
years, and all of a sudden our lives depend on having a GFI? I don't think
so. How many people have you heard about getting electrocuted by their
fridge or sump pump?

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 05:31:09 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.

Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.



You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.

Indeed. Looking more closely that article appears to be from 2002. My bad.

So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI? I can see some
seriously bad results arising from putting a sump pump (or a refrigerator)
on a GFCI. Having said that, I haven't had a nuisance trip from a GFCI in
quite some time and I now wonder if the refrigerator that was causing the
trips wasn't actually suffering from real current leakage.

I have investigated a couple of these refrigerators that trip GFCIs
and they do have internal shorts in the compressor. I put them on a 2
to 3 adapter, the old one with the pigtail and put a scope with a
current probe on the pigtail. There is definitely current spiking on
the ground. It is not enough to trip a breaker but it does trip the
GFCI
If you cut open the freon line, you will smell the burnt freon.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:43:44 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
need for a GFCI?

--
Bobby G.


Yes, that was where I was going. A twist lock will not relieve the
need for a GFCI but it only applies to 15 & 20a 120v receptacles

wrote in message
news
On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:43:44 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates
the
need for a GFCI?

--
Bobby G.


Yes, that was where I was going. A twist lock will not relieve the
need for a GFCI but it only applies to 15 & 20a 120v receptacles

OK - I got it. Thanks for the reply. I would (and do) use twist-locks on
all 240v gear and the 120v outlets that are ceiling mounted and power
specific items (not necessarily dedicated but items like a radial arm saw).

FWIW, I saw my first twist lock connector on an old portable tube radio
circa 1940 my dad had that had two different types of batteries and came in
a folding wood case. He had rigged up some sort of AC power for the unit
using a twist-lock connector which kind of negated its portability. As I
recall the price of the high voltage battery made operating the unit an
expensive proposition. Replaced many years later by one of the first Sony
shirt-pocket portable AM radios powered by a more affordable 9vdc cell.

--
Bobby G.

"Roger Blake" wrote in message
...
On 2015-12-12, wrote:
All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.

I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump
pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
it afterwards.

I might have agreed with you ten years ago when GFCI devices were still
"growing up." I had a lot of nuisance trips using some Slater GFCI's I got
at Hechinger's (George should know them!).

I've got Leviton 20A GFCI's just about everywhere and haven't had one trip
since the gardener tried to repair the extension cord he had just
hedge-clippered in half with a pen-knife and masking tape. Needless to say
he failed his audition . . .

I can see the sump being on a non-GFCI outlet when no one's home. However,
the combination of water, electricity and many times sloppy Chinese pump
manufacturing still make me want the protection of a GFCI on anything that
contacts groundwater. I would run it a long time "under test" to make sure
I could trust it if we were away on vacation.

--
Bobby G.

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert

On a serious note, I assume GFCI's have saved *some* lives but I've yet to
come up with a site that even hazards a guess how many lives have been
saved. One site said "countless" and that might be the closest estimate
because it seems no one has counted them. Even harder to come by seem to be
any figures relating the number of nuisance trips one can expect. My own
anecdotal evidence strongly suggests nuisance trips are much reduced from
GFCI designs of ten years ago, but it's just one data point. Where's Danny
D? If anyone could find those numbers, I'd bet on him. I seem to recall
others here making similar observations about decreasing nuisance trip
rates.

I suspect that the NEC has been changed to reflect the better designs of
modern GFCIs as the exceptions to where they are not needed seem to be
disappearing.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

There are specific twist lock configurations for each combination of
voltage and current, all having specific NEMA configuration numbers
which I included in my original recommendation - so yes, twist locks
ARE allowed by the NEC for 120 volt use.

Good to know since I have some ceiling outlets that are Hubbells (all I
remember) that I believed to be codeworthy when installed. Thanks.

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert


I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.

The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 11:34:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert


I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.

The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.

When I was on a Army Corps of Engineers job, the electrical engineers insisted that the ground hole be at the top. Their reason was that there was a possibility of something metallic falling on the partially pulled out plug. We had a lot of suspended ceiling tie wire on the job and it could easily fall between a partially pulled our plug and receptacle. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Short Monster

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:34:15 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert


I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.

The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.
And pretty difficult to do with the common"around here anyway)
practice of "splitting" an outlet and switching only one half -
allowing you yo use the outlet for something that stays on as well as
a lamp you switch - all in the same box.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:45:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:34:15 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert


I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.

The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.
And pretty difficult to do with the common"around here anyway)
practice of "splitting" an outlet and switching only one half -
allowing you yo use the outlet for something that stays on as well as
a lamp you switch - all in the same box.

If the receptacle is inverted you would still see it was different
than the rest, whether that is "half hot" or the whole thing.
Then the question is which one do you switch?
I like the logic that the top is hot and the bottom switched since
that will usually be the lamp you don't move around and the top is
available for portable equipment.

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:19:47 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 11:34:28 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Zak W" wrote in message

Just more bull**** regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?

Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! sarcasm alert


I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.

The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.

When I was on a Army Corps of Engineers job, the electrical engineers insisted that the ground hole be at the top. Their reason was that there was a possibility of something metallic falling on the partially pulled out plug. We had a lot of suspended ceiling tie wire on the job and it could easily fall between a partially pulled our plug and receptacle. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Short Monster
It would APPEAR they are intended to be installd ground down, as the
embossed printing in the plastic front is right side up in that
orientation.

Here in Ontario I would venture to guess over 90% are installed U
down, neutral left.