Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Robert11 wrote:
Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

Thanks,
Bob


Go ask at HD. Bring the thing back to HD?

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.


It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

What switch? One built into the fixture, or a switch you wired to
the outlet. If the former- I'd suspect the switch first. To
test it- once the fixture is on, unplug it and plug it back in. If
that seems to work, even if the fixture is cold, then the switch is
bad.

"Lights and stays lit"? Do you man it actually lights- then goes
out? That's a switch. Or does it just flicker? That's more
likely the ballast.


Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

The cheap fixtures have super cheap ballasts. I'd replace the
ballast.

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Lowe's & HD buy where they can get the best deal-- neither has some
magic way of buying good stuff cheaper than the other. This week HD
has the deal- next week it is Lowe's.

Good ballasts can be had for $10-20. [$5 if you want to buy a lot
of 6-10 on ebay]

Jim

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I have had really bad luck with Lights of America brand. If it that is what
you have return for a different brand. If you have another brand I would
just try returning for replacement.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

"Robert11" wrote in message

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my
workbench. Bought at HD.

Probably made in China?


Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on
and off before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll
catch on the first turn-on.

Not unusual. The cheapie lights often only work well under ideal
conditions. As soon as anything changes, including the environment,
problems can start with the cheap ones. I'll bet it's worst when
humidity is highest.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

New bulb sometimes helps. If they show any burn marks, etc., definitely
replace.

Is this a typical problem ?

Yes, with the cheapies stuff.


I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes
anymore. I guess this really dates me.

Yup. That's OK though; a lot of us are dated hereg!

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another,
at Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply)
replaceable ?

If new, bring it back to Lowes for replacement. But yes, replacement is
often as cheap as bulbs and almost always cheaper than a ballast. BUT,
a quality ballast might make the quality of the fixture rise
significantly, so ... .

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

These always require a good, properly applied ground wire. A bad earth
gnd can cause all of the problems you mentioned. Not only that, but
things like distance from grounded fixture metal to bulbs can be
critical too, so if you're bastadizing the fixtures at all or the design
is bad, there's another possibility.
Besides gnd, be certain Hot/Neutral polarity is correct too.

HTH,

Twayne`



Spend

Thanks,
Bob

On Sep 14, 8:53*am, "Twayne" wrote:
"Robert11" wrote in message



Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my
workbench. Bought at HD.

Probably made in China?



Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on
and off before it lights and stays lit. *Other times, rarely, it'll
catch on the first turn-on.

Not unusual. The cheapie lights often only work well under ideal
conditions. As soon as anything changes, including the environment,
problems can start with the cheap ones. I'll bet it's worst when
humidity is highest.



Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

New bulb sometimes helps. *If they show any burn marks, etc., definitely
replace.



Is this a typical problem ?

Yes, with the cheapies stuff.



I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes
anymore. I guess this really dates me.

Yup. *That's OK though; a lot of us are dated hereg!



If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another,
at Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply)
replaceable ?

If new, bring it back to Lowes for replacement. *But yes, replacement is
often as cheap as bulbs and almost always cheaper than a ballast. *BUT,
a quality ballast might make the quality of the fixture rise
significantly, so ... .



Any thoughts would be appareciated.

These always require a good, properly applied ground wire. *A bad earth
gnd can cause all of the problems you mentioned. *Not only that, but
things like distance from grounded fixture metal to bulbs can be
critical too, so if you're bastadizing the fixtures at all or the design
is bad, there's another possibility.
* *Besides gnd, be certain Hot/Neutral polarity is correct too.

HTH,

Twayne`

Spend





Thanks,
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Reverse the two wires going to the fixture, and ground the metal
fixture itself.

beecrofter wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

I have been having the same trouble and found that brushing my fingers
down the length of the bulb works. (sometimes)

Chuck wrote:
beecrofter wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

I have been having the same trouble and found that brushing my fingers
down the length of the bulb works. (sometimes)

If you are not just joking. Why?

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Are the fixtures grounded???
They MUST be grounded to light properly.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:24:39 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I have had really bad luck with Lights of America brand. If it that is what
you have return for a different brand. If you have another brand I would
just try returning for replacement.
Try grounding it first.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:53:29 -0700 (PDT), beecrofter
wrote:

Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

If this makes them start they are not properly grounded

On Sep 14, 11:29*am, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:53:29 -0700 (PDT), beecrofter

wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

If this makes them start they are not properly grounded

The way it works is that there is an inter\nal field from the hot end
of the fixture to your hand, capacitively coupled thru the glass, that
starts the arc. This happens when the voltage differential between
the two ends of the bulb is not enough to strike the initial arc. If
the fixture is grounded, and the bulbs are within a couple of inches
of the fixture (metal), then the arc will start from the hot end of
the bulb to the fixture (coupled thru the glass) and that starts the
lighting. If the fixture is not grounded, then the initial arc from
the hot end of the bulb to ground does not exist, and the fixture will
not light. That is why there is usually a warning on ALL fixtures
about grounding the metal case of the fixture.

hr(bob) wrote:
On Sep 14, 11:29 am, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:53:29 -0700 (PDT), beecrofter

wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.
If this makes them start they are not properly grounded

The way it works is that there is an inter\nal field from the hot end
of the fixture to your hand, capacitively coupled thru the glass, that
starts the arc. This happens when the voltage differential between
the two ends of the bulb is not enough to strike the initial arc. If
the fixture is grounded, and the bulbs are within a couple of inches
of the fixture (metal), then the arc will start from the hot end of
the bulb to the fixture (coupled thru the glass) and that starts the
lighting. If the fixture is not grounded, then the initial arc from
the hot end of the bulb to ground does not exist, and the fixture will
not light. That is why there is usually a warning on ALL fixtures
about grounding the metal case of the fixture.
Thanks for the advice. I will try to ground it tomorrow.
It's amazing what I learn on this group. Chuck

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.


It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.



Irrelevant. There isn't one ground wire in my house (built in 1956) and all
my flourescents work just fine.

Make sure you have the correct bulbs

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on
the first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Is this a typical problem ?

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

Thanks,
Bob

In article , Bob M. wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11" wrote:

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.

Irrelevant. There isn't one ground wire in my house (built in 1956) and all
my flourescents work just fine.

Fluorescent fixtures that lack the widely-recommended grounding
*usually* "work anyway". But not always.

- Don Klipstein )

In article , LouB wrote:
Chuck wrote:
beecrofter wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.

I have been having the same trouble and found that brushing my fingers
down the length of the bulb works. (sometimes)

If you are not just joking. Why?

Sometimes this helps where the recomended grounding is lacking, or where
the bulbs have a coating of slightly-conductive dirt/dust. The
explanation is that touching the bulb can overcome the above in favor of
increasing electric field intensity ("voltage gradient") within an
unstarted bulb where it needs to be increased.

I would look into implementying cleaning of bulbs, proper grounding, and
avoiding 34/35 watt "energy saver" versions of F40.

Furthermore, I hope you are not using the newfangled better 1-inch-wide
"T8" with ballasts made for the "older stuff".

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
"Bob M." wrote:

There isn't one ground wire in my house

You're a brave man to admit that in here, Bob. Lots of people here are
terrified of electricity. They're weeping, wringing hands, and gnashing
teeth now, afraid you'll soon be T.U. for your reckless abandon.

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , LouB wrote:
Chuck wrote:
beecrofter wrote:
Try brushing your fingers down the length of the tubes, it has always
worked on cheap shoplights for me.
I have been having the same trouble and found that brushing my fingers
down the length of the bulb works. (sometimes)
If you are not just joking. Why?

Sometimes this helps where the recomended grounding is lacking, or where
the bulbs have a coating of slightly-conductive dirt/dust. The
explanation is that touching the bulb can overcome the above in favor of
increasing electric field intensity ("voltage gradient") within an
unstarted bulb where it needs to be increased.

snipped

- Don Klipstein )

Thanks
Lou

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:38:18 -0600, "Bob M." wrote:

wrote in message
....


It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.



Irrelevant. There isn't one ground wire in my house (built in 1956) and all
my flourescents work just fine.

Try it, you may like it.

Robert11 wrote:
Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.

Is this, likely, a bulb(s) problem or something wrong (like made too
cheaply) a Ballast problem.

Considering where you bought it that would be a good guess.

My buddy really bought into all of the HD marketing. He had an
outbuilding built and asked me to help him hang 4, 8' HO strip fixtures.
He bought them from "the depot". Three of the fixtures didn't light
properly. After troubleshooting and swapping stuff it turned out 3 of
the ballasts were bad. We pulled the fixtures to return them. We brought
them back and at least the guy was honest. He said they had changed over
to some even cheesier supplier and returns were common. I told my buddy
he was going to do the job himself if he bought more fixtures from "the
depot". He bought 4 better quality fixtures at the local real supply
house for less money and they worked the first time we turned them on.




Is this a typical problem ?

I see they don't use or have those little "Starter" small tubes anymore.
I guess this really dates me.

If a defective Ballast, best to dump the whow thing and buy another, at
Lowe's this time, or are the Ballast themselves (cheaply) replaceable ?

Any thoughts would be appareciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Bob M. wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11" wrote:
....
...fluorescent light over my workbench.
....
Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off before it lights and stays lit. ...
It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.
Irrelevant. ...

Fluorescent fixtures that lack the widely-recommended grounding
*usually* "work anyway". But not always.

For what reason? Makes no sense unless the neutral is bad.

--

Don Klipstein wrote:
....
If the fixture is grounded, then the "electric field" ("voltage
gradient") within a bulb that has voltage across it but is not yet
conducting, is concentrated in one end around one of the
filaments. This increased concentration of "electric field" helps the
gas in the bulb break down there. Once the breakdown begins, the
electric field distribution changes, resulting in concentration of
electric field at the tip of the breakdown region - provided the
fixture is grounded.

Just how does it decide which end???

The bulb isn't tied into the ground, only supply/neutral.

....

dpb wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
...
If the fixture is grounded, then the "electric field" ("voltage
gradient") within a bulb that has voltage across it but is not yet
conducting, is concentrated in one end around one of the
filaments. This increased concentration of "electric field" helps the
gas in the bulb break down there. Once the breakdown begins, the
electric field distribution changes, resulting in concentration of
electric field at the tip of the breakdown region - provided the
fixture is grounded.

Just how does it decide which end???

The bulb isn't tied into the ground, only supply/neutral.

OK, I went and read up on these-here new-fangled thingies...I see now;
the age of the house and church is apparent when there are no
rapid-start fixtures in sight so I'd never actually looked into them for
no need to...

Your explanation is sorta' about the mark but not directly to the actual
construction/operation as to make any sense but after reading some
online detailed discussions I now see what they consist of...

So, ok, grounding is indeed important for newer (current-day) fixtures...

I'll be jiggered, so to speak...

--

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:38:18 -0600, "Bob M." wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.


It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.



Irrelevant. There isn't one ground wire in my house (built in 1956) and all
my flourescents work just fine.


Then you too are one lucky son of a gun, or perhaps you still have the
old units with neon starters?????

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:02:45 -0500, dpb wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Bob M. wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11" wrote:
...
...fluorescent light over my workbench.
...
Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off before it lights and stays lit. ...
It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.
Irrelevant. ...

Fluorescent fixtures that lack the widely-recommended grounding
*usually* "work anyway". But not always.

For what reason? Makes no sense unless the neutral is bad.
You need to understand how discharge tubes light. Flourescents are
gas discharge tubes, and they work something like a xenon strobe -
which will not fire untill the "trigger" is energized - and the
"trigger" is not inside the tube.. The capacitive coupling of the tube
to groud reduces the amount of voltage required to fire the tube,

It is a well known fact among electricians and knowlegeable homeowners
that a bad or missing ground can make a flourescent fixture difficult
to start - particularly if cool or danp.

In article , dpb wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
...
If the fixture is grounded, then the "electric field" ("voltage
gradient") within a bulb that has voltage across it but is not yet
conducting, is concentrated in one end around one of the
filaments. This increased concentration of "electric field" helps the
gas in the bulb break down there. Once the breakdown begins, the
electric field distribution changes, resulting in concentration of
electric field at the tip of the breakdown region - provided the
fixture is grounded.

Just how does it decide which end???

The bulb isn't tied into the ground, only supply/neutral.

In most 120V North American fixtures, one end of the bulb (or the "low
one" of a "series pair") is tied to ground via neutral if the wiring
diagram on the ballast is obeyed, even if the fixture is not grounded. In
USA, 120V circuits have "neutral" being a/the "grounded conductor". (And
the "safety ground" is the "grounding conductor", usually tied to the
"grounded conductor" at the breaker box, and "hot" is the "ungrounded
conductor" with full 120V with respect to "ground".)

The other end (of the bulb or of a series pair thereof) gets full
voltage of the line and any "inductive kicks", or full voltage of a
voltage-boosting ballast (such as the 120V-North_America-"traditional"
dual-F40 "rapid start magnetic ballast" and North American 120V "trigger
start" ballasts).

Grounding the fixture means that until the bulbs start conducting,
assuming their surfaces do not conduct along their lengths due to
hygroscopic dirt, that the electric field gets concentrated in the gas
around the "ungrounded end" electrode, and such concentration of electric
field gets the gas in that region of the bulb to "break down".

- Don Klipstein )

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:38:18 -0600, "Bob M." wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:21:12 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hello,

Put up the typical four foot (2 bulb) fluorescent light over my
workbench.
Bought at HD.

Sometimes it takes, literally 3 or 4 tries turning the AC switch on and
off
before it lights and stays lit. Other times, rarely, it'll catch on the
first turn-on.


It sounds like you lack a good ground. Make sure the fixture
is properly electrically grounded.



Irrelevant. There isn't one ground wire in my house (built in 1956) and
all
my flourescents work just fine.


Then you too are one lucky son of a gun, or perhaps you still have the
old units with neon starters?????



No. All are electronic ballasts. The old magnetic ballasts were removed
three years ago after I got sick of the buzz. (the upstairs units were
original too, ~50 years on them). 6 upstairs controlled via a solid-state
relay, 6 in the basement controlled via normal switches. Not a single
problem.