I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

On Sep 14, 1:41*am, Kate wrote:
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. *I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. *How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? *I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

If you use Tapcons, Redheads or any stress anchored devices, the
concrete must cure for months. The neat approach is to bore holes for
the fasteners and use the commercial epoxy made for that purpose to
anchor the bolts in place (stainless steel preferred). Contractors
routinely do that on even fairly fresh concrete with good effect.
With bolts in place the railing can be installed the next day.

Joe

"Kate" wrote in message
...
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ...........

If they were mine, I'd wait until warm spring. The concrete will be cured.
Where you put the holes has a lot to do with it, too. If you put them in
from the side into the "meat" of the steps, you can get more strength. If
you put them within 4" of an edge, there will be a tendency to crack off.
Plan the mounts so the holes that need to be drilled are at least 6-8" or
more from the edges. You're going to cry if you crack off a corner of your
new steps.

Another way would be to core drill holes (about the size of a can of beans.)
and then mount the pipes in them. Trouble with those is that they tend to
rust/corrode at the base if you're in cold or wet country. Plus, it will
cost you a decent amount to rent a core drill. No big project, and it gives
nice results, but ..........

Why aluminum?

Steve, an ex steel erection contractor, who has done a lot of step mounts.

Joe wrote:
On Sep 14, 1:41 am, Kate wrote:
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

If you use Tapcons, Redheads or any stress anchored devices, the
concrete must cure for months. The neat approach is to bore holes for
the fasteners and use the commercial epoxy made for that purpose to
anchor the bolts in place (stainless steel preferred). Contractors
routinely do that on even fairly fresh concrete with good effect.
With bolts in place the railing can be installed the next day.

Joe
Thank you Joe.

SteveB wrote:
"Kate" wrote in message
...
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ...........

If they were mine, I'd wait until warm spring. The concrete will be cured.
Where you put the holes has a lot to do with it, too. If you put them in
from the side into the "meat" of the steps, you can get more strength. If
you put them within 4" of an edge, there will be a tendency to crack off.
Plan the mounts so the holes that need to be drilled are at least 6-8" or
more from the edges. You're going to cry if you crack off a corner of your
new steps.

Another way would be to core drill holes (about the size of a can of beans.)
and then mount the pipes in them. Trouble with those is that they tend to
rust/corrode at the base if you're in cold or wet country. Plus, it will
cost you a decent amount to rent a core drill. No big project, and it gives
nice results, but ..........

Why aluminum?

Steve, an ex steel erection contractor, who has done a lot of step mounts.


Aluminum is very popular where I live (Central WA State). It is
maintenance free which is what I am looking for.

After drilling four holes for each post, it looks like the screws would
have to be drilled in about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the steps.
This does not sound good after reading your comments.

I have two steps, and the railing is small, only 8'long. The left end
will mount into the side wall of my home, and that leaves two posts to
mount into the concrete.

The guys who did my concrete told me I could install the railing in a
week.

Now I am getting mixed reviews, but this is why I posted in the first
place.

I need to rethink this.

Many thanks. Great info.

Kate

"Kate" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
"Kate" wrote in message
...
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ...........

If they were mine, I'd wait until warm spring. The concrete will be
cured. Where you put the holes has a lot to do with it, too. If you put
them in from the side into the "meat" of the steps, you can get more
strength. If you put them within 4" of an edge, there will be a tendency
to crack off. Plan the mounts so the holes that need to be drilled are at
least 6-8" or more from the edges. You're going to cry if you crack off
a corner of your new steps.

Another way would be to core drill holes (about the size of a can of
beans.) and then mount the pipes in them. Trouble with those is that
they tend to rust/corrode at the base if you're in cold or wet country.
Plus, it will cost you a decent amount to rent a core drill. No big
project, and it gives nice results, but ..........

Why aluminum?

Steve, an ex steel erection contractor, who has done a lot of step
mounts.
Aluminum is very popular where I live (Central WA State). It is
maintenance free which is what I am looking for.

After drilling four holes for each post, it looks like the screws would
have to be drilled in about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the steps.
This does not sound good after reading your comments.

I have two steps, and the railing is small, only 8'long. The left end
will mount into the side wall of my home, and that leaves two posts to
mount into the concrete.

The guys who did my concrete told me I could install the railing in a
week.

Now I am getting mixed reviews, but this is why I posted in the first
place.

I need to rethink this.

Many thanks. Great info.

Kate

Three things: the longer you let it cure, the better. The closer to the
edge you drill, the worse. If a corner does come off, it's usually an UGLY
PERMANENT WEAK fix.

Steve

On Sep 14, 9:10*am, Kate wrote:
SteveB wrote:
"Kate" wrote in message
...
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. *I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. *How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? *I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ...........

If they were mine, I'd wait until warm spring. *The concrete will be cured.
Where you put the holes has a lot to do with it, too. *If you put them in
from the side into the "meat" of the steps, you can get more strength. *If
you put them within 4" of an edge, there will be a tendency to crack off.
Plan the mounts so the holes that need to be drilled are at least 6-8" or
more from the edges. *You're going to cry if you crack off a corner of your
new steps.

Another way would be to core drill holes (about the size of a can of beans.)
and then mount the pipes in them. *Trouble with those is that they tend to
rust/corrode at the base if you're in cold or wet country. *Plus, it will
cost you a decent amount to rent a core drill. *No big project, and it gives
nice results, but ..........

Why aluminum?

Steve, an ex steel erection contractor, who has done a lot of step mounts.

Aluminum is very popular where I live (Central WA State). *It is
maintenance free which is what I am looking for.

After drilling four holes for each post, it looks like the screws would
have to be drilled in about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the steps.
This does not sound good after reading your comments.

I have two steps, and the railing is small, only 8'long. *The left end
will mount into the side wall of my home, and that leaves two posts to
mount into the concrete.

The guys who did my concrete told me I could install the railing in a
week.

Now I am getting mixed reviews, but this is why I posted in the first
place.

I need to rethink this.

Many thanks. *Great info.

Kate

Kate-

I've been following this thread and imo most of the suggestions /
advice has been good. Steve B's comments about cracking the concrete
are "spot on".

The truth is, concrete cracks (nearly all the time). The key is
getting the cracks to form where they don't matter and NOT where
they'd be a problem.

The core drilling & set with anchoring cement or epoxy is a very
strong method. But setting aluminum directly into cementious materials
can cause a corrosion problem.

If your railing is lightly loaded, not a high traffic / high usage
application you'll probably be fine.

As Joe mentioned "stress anchored devices" (aks mechanical / wedge
anchors) can cause the concrete to crack upon their installation.
Small diameter holes (1/4" to 3/8"; maybe 1/2" ) can be drilled fairly
close to the edge of the concrete. Your 2 1/2" edge distance is
probably ok but young concrete can be a problem esp if the holes are
drilled with a large rotary hammer.

If they were my steps. I would go with Steve B's core drill, set a
steel pipe stub & slide the alumimum post over them.

If I were continuing with your contractors design, I'd wait at least
28 days, drill with a small (light hammer blows) rotary hammer & set
stainless steel bolts using either
SIKA Sikadur AnchorFix #1 (super fast set) or AnchorFix #3 (slow set).

Remember, if your contractor was the low bidder (?), he costed in
"fast & cheap" to win the job .......potentially not in your long term
interest

Bob
35 years mechanical engineering ( within that; 17 years structural
research - concrete & timber)

On Sep 14, 12:23*pm, fftt wrote:

snip

If I were continuing with your contractors design, I'd wait at least
28 days, drill with a small (light hammer blows) rotary hammer & set
stainless steel bolts

Using a small diamond drill would have zero impact. I've even used a
small carbide hole saw in old concrete and had good results, although
not as fast as a diamond type.


using either SIKA Sikadur AnchorFix #1 (super fast set) or AnchorFix #3 (slow set).

Wasn't it the fast set epoxy that failed in the Boston Tunnel project?

Joe

On Sep 14, 2:41*am, Kate wrote:
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. *I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. *How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? *I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

My neighbor didn't want to drill into his new concrete stoop so he
mounted his railings along side it. His was a flat stoop, only one
step up, but his method could be adapted for more steps.

I know you said aluminum, but bear with me, maybe this will give you
some ideas.

For each side he used two 8' PT 4 x 4's, built a "picture frame" in
the top 32" inches into which he mounted wrought iron spindles.

He then dug 2 post holes and buried the 4 x 4's deep enough so that
the decorative part of the railing was the correct height. (We have to
worry about 42" frost lines around here.) He buried the posts right
along side the concrete steps so that there is no gap between the
bottom of the railing and the stoop.

I don't know how well this side-view ascii art will come out, but I'll
take a shot. The w's are wrought iron spindles - I think he actually
has 5 or 6 - the dashes and uprights are stained PT wood and the s's
is the stoop.. I know this looks plain, but he did a real nice job
trimming it out and it looks great.

-------------
| w w |
| w w | - Railing
-------------
|sssssss| - Stoop
| |
| | - Underground
| |
| |

For your steps, you could add an angled "picture frame" and a third
post for the step portion.

fftt wrote:

The core drilling & set with anchoring cement or epoxy is a very
strong method. But setting aluminum directly into cementious materials
can cause a corrosion problem.


Wasn't that the method used to hold up the ceiling of the Boston 'Big Dig'
tunnels?

If you don't drive up and down the steps, you should be fine.

fftt wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:10 am, Kate wrote:
SteveB wrote:
"Kate" wrote in message
...
I posted a few weeks back.
I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.
It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.
Now, I have one more question.
I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.
Many thanks again.
Kate
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but ...........
If they were mine, I'd wait until warm spring. The concrete will be cured.
Where you put the holes has a lot to do with it, too. If you put them in
from the side into the "meat" of the steps, you can get more strength. If
you put them within 4" of an edge, there will be a tendency to crack off.
Plan the mounts so the holes that need to be drilled are at least 6-8" or
more from the edges. You're going to cry if you crack off a corner of your
new steps.
Another way would be to core drill holes (about the size of a can of beans.)
and then mount the pipes in them. Trouble with those is that they tend to
rust/corrode at the base if you're in cold or wet country. Plus, it will
cost you a decent amount to rent a core drill. No big project, and it gives
nice results, but ..........
Why aluminum?
Steve, an ex steel erection contractor, who has done a lot of step mounts.
Aluminum is very popular where I live (Central WA State). It is
maintenance free which is what I am looking for.

After drilling four holes for each post, it looks like the screws would
have to be drilled in about 2-1/2 inches from the edge of the steps.
This does not sound good after reading your comments.

I have two steps, and the railing is small, only 8'long. The left end
will mount into the side wall of my home, and that leaves two posts to
mount into the concrete.

The guys who did my concrete told me I could install the railing in a
week.

Now I am getting mixed reviews, but this is why I posted in the first
place.

I need to rethink this.

Many thanks. Great info.

Kate

Kate-

I've been following this thread and imo most of the suggestions /
advice has been good. Steve B's comments about cracking the concrete
are "spot on".

The truth is, concrete cracks (nearly all the time). The key is
getting the cracks to form where they don't matter and NOT where
they'd be a problem.

The core drilling & set with anchoring cement or epoxy is a very
strong method. But setting aluminum directly into cementious materials
can cause a corrosion problem.

If your railing is lightly loaded, not a high traffic / high usage
application you'll probably be fine.

As Joe mentioned "stress anchored devices" (aks mechanical / wedge
anchors) can cause the concrete to crack upon their installation.
Small diameter holes (1/4" to 3/8"; maybe 1/2" ) can be drilled fairly
close to the edge of the concrete. Your 2 1/2" edge distance is
probably ok but young concrete can be a problem esp if the holes are
drilled with a large rotary hammer.

If they were my steps. I would go with Steve B's core drill, set a
steel pipe stub & slide the alumimum post over them.

If I were continuing with your contractors design, I'd wait at least
28 days, drill with a small (light hammer blows) rotary hammer & set
stainless steel bolts using either
SIKA Sikadur AnchorFix #1 (super fast set) or AnchorFix #3 (slow set).

Remember, if your contractor was the low bidder (?), he costed in
"fast & cheap" to win the job .......potentially not in your long term
interest

Bob
35 years mechanical engineering ( within that; 17 years structural
research - concrete & timber)

Thank you Bob. I will print out your great info. for the guy doing the
railing job for me.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 14, 2:41 am, Kate wrote:
I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

My neighbor didn't want to drill into his new concrete stoop so he
mounted his railings along side it. His was a flat stoop, only one
step up, but his method could be adapted for more steps.

I know you said aluminum, but bear with me, maybe this will give you
some ideas.

For each side he used two 8' PT 4 x 4's, built a "picture frame" in
the top 32" inches into which he mounted wrought iron spindles.

He then dug 2 post holes and buried the 4 x 4's deep enough so that
the decorative part of the railing was the correct height. (We have to
worry about 42" frost lines around here.) He buried the posts right
along side the concrete steps so that there is no gap between the
bottom of the railing and the stoop.

I don't know how well this side-view ascii art will come out, but I'll
take a shot. The w's are wrought iron spindles - I think he actually
has 5 or 6 - the dashes and uprights are stained PT wood and the s's
is the stoop.. I know this looks plain, but he did a real nice job
trimming it out and it looks great.

-------------
| w w |
| w w | - Railing
-------------
|sssssss| - Stoop
| |
| | - Underground
| |
| |

For your steps, you could add an angled "picture frame" and a third
post for the step portion.

Thanks for taking the time to map all of this out for me. I printed
it our for the man who will be helping me with the railing. I like the
fact that it is mounted on the side of the steps.

Appreciate your time and help.

Kate

On Sep 14, 11:35*am, Joe wrote:
On Sep 14, 12:23*pm, fftt wrote:

snip
If I were continuing with your contractors design, I'd wait at least
28 days, drill with a small (light hammer blows) rotary hammer & set
stainless steel bolts

Using a small diamond drill would have zero impact. I've even used a
small carbide hole saw in old concrete and had good results, although
not as fast as a diamond type.



using either SIKA Sikadur AnchorFix #1 (super fast set) or AnchorFix #3 (slow set).

Wasn't it the fast set epoxy that failed in the Boston Tunnel project?

Joe

Yes ....... a fast set epoxy did fail in the Boston "Big Dig"
"tunnel" disaster

BUT that was with Boston workmanship & Boston inspection.....plus its
a much different application than Kate's railing anchoring

cheers
Bob

In article 0,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Sun 13 Sep 2009 11:41:08p, Kate told us...

I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I missed your earlier posts and would be very interested in how you
constructed your concrete steps.

TIA

I followed most of her earlier posts, and still never figured out why
she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she poured
the steps. It's not like the railings were an afterthought.

On Sep 15, 6:35*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article 0,
*Wayne Boatwright wrote:



On Sun 13 Sep 2009 11:41:08p, Kate told us...

I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. *I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing and
handrail. *How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into the
newly poured concrete? *I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I missed your earlier posts and would be very interested in how you
constructed your concrete steps.

TIA

I followed most of her earlier posts, and still never figured out why
she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she poured
the steps. It's not like the railings were an afterthought.

never figured out why she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she poured the steps.

she deferred to the contractor.....he must know what he's doing, he's
a professional


cheers
Bob

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
On Tue 15 Sep 2009 06:35:26a, Smitty Two told us...

In article 0,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Sun 13 Sep 2009 11:41:08p, Kate told us...

I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing
and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into
the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate
I missed your earlier posts and would be very interested in how you
constructed your concrete steps.

TIA
I followed most of her earlier posts, and still never figured out why
she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she poured
the steps. It's not like the railings were an afterthought.


It would certainly seem logical to do so, not to mention less effort.

That was my thought too- didn't we discuss this to death already just a
week or so ago?

--
aem sends...

In article
,
fftt wrote:



she deferred to the contractor.....he must know what he's doing, he's
a professional


Oh, that explains it. You must mean the concrete contractor, who
disappeared sometime between the ink on the check drying and the
concrete setting, and never planned to be involved in the railing.

"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message
5.250...
On Tue 15 Sep 2009 06:35:26a, Smitty Two told us...

In article 0,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Sun 13 Sep 2009 11:41:08p, Kate told us...

I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired of
having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing
and
handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing into
the
newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I missed your earlier posts and would be very interested in how you
constructed your concrete steps.

TIA

I followed most of her earlier posts, and still never figured out why
she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she poured
the steps. It's not like the railings were an afterthought.


It would certainly seem logical to do so, not to mention less effort.

--
Wayne Boatwright

You would think so. It is surely easy to put those into wet concrete. But
even people who SHOULD know don't. I did the stairway for parking lot #13
at Hoover Dam. It's the one on the Arizona side on the hairpin turn there.
We were two days core drilling. Had they done it when they poured the step,
it would have been easier. But then, I would have made less, too. When
properly done, it's great. Easier to install rails, plus if they ever rust
off, you merely jack out the tubes and pour new ones.

Steve

"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message
5.247...
On Tue 15 Sep 2009 08:19:17p, SteveB told us...


"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message
5.250...
On Tue 15 Sep 2009 06:35:26a, Smitty Two told us...

In article 0,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Sun 13 Sep 2009 11:41:08p, Kate told us...

I posted a few weeks back.

I had a redwood deck/steps leading to my front door and I was tired
of having to treat it every summer.

It was all ripped out, and new concrete was poured and the job was
finished on Saturday. I am very, very pleased with the results.

Now, I have one more question.

I am going to have someone install a powder coated aluminum railing
and handrail. How long do I have to wait to bolt this new railing
into the newly poured concrete? I just don't want to crack it.

Many thanks again.

Kate

I missed your earlier posts and would be very interested in how you
constructed your concrete steps.

TIA

I followed most of her earlier posts, and still never figured out why
she didn't incorporate the railing or mounting brackets when she
poured the steps. It's not like the railings were an afterthought.


It would certainly seem logical to do so, not to mention less effort.

--
Wayne Boatwright

You would think so. It is surely easy to put those into wet concrete.
But even people who SHOULD know don't. I did the stairway for parking
lot #13 at Hoover Dam. It's the one on the Arizona side on the hairpin
turn there. We were two days core drilling. Had they done it when they
poured the step, it would have been easier. But then, I would have made
less, too. When properly done, it's great. Easier to install rails,
plus if they ever rust off, you merely jack out the tubes and pour new
ones.

Steve


That certainly sounds better for a commercial installation. Probably
somewhat less important for a small residential application. Also,
probably easier for an amateur to place into wet concrete.

--
Wayne Boatwright
You do not place the railings in concrete. You put three or four inch
diameter tubes in the concrete with the bottom taped shut at the locations
where the rails will go into the concrete. You do not fill the tubes. When
the concrete cures, you then insert the railings in the tubes and fill with
hydraulic cement. Hence, if you ever need to remove them, you can just jack
out the concrete in the tubes. Makes for a clean install, and a way out
different from all the people who write in asking how to fix broken rails.

Steve

You would think so. �It is surely easy to put those into wet concrete. �But
even people who SHOULD know don't. �I did the stairway for parking lot #13
at Hoover Dam. �It's the one on the Arizona side on the hairpin turn there.
We were two days core drilling. �Had they done it when they poured the step,
it would have been easier. �But then, I would have made less, too.. �When
properly done, it's great. �Easier to install rails, plus if they ever rust
off, you merely jack out the tubes and pour new ones.

Steve-

last thing in the world the federal government cares about is saving
money

their overspending on everything is why our economy is tanked