Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

On Sep 10, 8:01*am, stryped wrote:
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

In many areas yes, in some areas no....

Independent of local code requirements I recommend either

1) pulled wire in EMT or flex

OR

2) NM drilled through the studs with nail plates where indicated.
This would be in preparation for sheathing the interior of the garage
with plywood (actually 7/16 - 1/2 OSB is the lowest cost sheathing)
followed by drywall.
A very nice way to "finish out" a garage and can be done as time &
money permits.


that said, my neighbor did his garage (bare studs / no interior
sheathing) in NM a couple years. His is hardworking garage; tool
usage, storage, painting, construction.....no problem with the exposed
NM.

cheers
Bob

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?
what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

Pete, I totally agree with what you said and have been intending to say
it for a long time.

In the county that I live in you don't even have to get a permit to
build a new home in the county (in the communities, you do). You can
build what you want, where you want, and when you want. OTOH, If you are
putting in a septic system you must have a permit for it.

Recently, there was a law passed that states that the utility company
must report your structure to the state before they can hook up the
power to the structure. Once it is reported then an electrical inspector
(note, only electric) does come around and look things over. As you can
imagine, this new law is not going over well in the rural areas and
individuals are looking for ways around it.

.....and no, I do not live in a 3rd world country.

Don

stryped wrote:
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

yes

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

you need to research who this person is. try looking at his posts and
responses in rec.crafts.metalworking.

On 2009-09-10, stryped wrote:

Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

Starting with the 2002 NEC, this was disallowed. Section 334.10 of
the 2008 NEC reads:

334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be
permitted to be used in the following:

(1) One- and two-family dwellings.

(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction except as prohibited in 334.12.

(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed
within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of
material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in
listings of firerated assemblies.

(4) Cable trays in structures permitted to be Types III, IV, or V
where the cables are identified for the use.

Section 334.12(A) prohibits other uses. Since a detached garage is
not a dwelling unit, usage in the garage is governed by 334.10(3),
which require the NM to be concealed.

Cheers, Wayne

charlie wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

you need to research who this person is. try looking at his posts and
responses in rec.crafts.metalworking.

No, I don't really. My point stands just fine regardless of the OP.

On Sep 10, 11:01*am, stryped wrote:
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?


Your question was already answered he
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...6b86baa172dbab

Others may have forgotten but I haven’t that you keep asking over &
over again until you get the answer you want like he
http://tinyurl.com/lrwagd

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a bad
thing.

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a
bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

neither of which applies to this person

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a
bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

I agree with you, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen absolutely
horrendous work done by people claiming to know what they're doing.
Personally I think the OP is doing the right thing by asking. The OP did say
in a previous post, that he got outlet requirements from an electrical
inspector, so it is a little surprising that he didn't ask that inspector
what type of wiring would be required.

RBM wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a
bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

I agree with you, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen absolutely
horrendous work done by people claiming to know what they're doing.
Personally I think the OP is doing the right thing by asking. The OP did say
in a previous post, that he got outlet requirements from an electrical
inspector, so it is a little surprising that he didn't ask that inspector
what type of wiring would be required.

I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known what
they were doing. My current house is an example and I've remediated the
various electrical work done by a former utility lineman owner. Granted
utilities go by the NESC, but they should know enough to read the NEC
for their home projects. I have copies of both on my bookshelf and I'm
neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just research properly so I know
what I'm doing.

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

RBM wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and
asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to
use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such
a
bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

I agree with you, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen
absolutely
horrendous work done by people claiming to know what they're doing.
Personally I think the OP is doing the right thing by asking. The OP did
say
in a previous post, that he got outlet requirements from an electrical
inspector, so it is a little surprising that he didn't ask that inspector
what type of wiring would be required.

I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known what
they were doing. My current house is an example and I've remediated the
various electrical work done by a former utility lineman owner. Granted
utilities go by the NESC, but they should know enough to read the NEC
for their home projects. I have copies of both on my bookshelf and I'm
neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just research properly so I know
what I'm doing.


Funny, now that you mention it, most of the work I'm referring to was done
by utility company lineman. Almost makes the case for oppressive code
inspectors

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

charlie wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

you need to research who this person is. try looking at his posts and
responses in rec.crafts.metalworking.

He occasionally infests rec.woodworking, too, with similar questions.

No, I don't really. My point stands just fine regardless of the OP.

Yes, you do really, and no it doesn't. Stryped won't take the initiative to
find out *anything* on his own -- questions that he could easily answer with a
minimum of effort, he brings to the newsgroups. Over and over and over.

And Stryped *does* live in a jurisdiction with Code inspectors.

In article .com, "Pete C." wrote:

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such a bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

The OP does not fit either category.

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

If exposed and "accessible" the general answer is NO.

Heretofore, I didn't use armored cable but I bit the bullet and picked up
100' of #12 Al armored stuff.

I ended up buying a $29 gadget that makes it easy to cut the armor. After
that, it many respects it's just as easy if not easier to use than the
romex! You get the right "connectors" and don't forget the bushings (tiny
little red sleves) and the cable clamps and you are ready to go.

My next purchase will be a roll of #14.

I had to connect some "boxes" on my basement wall. One was a relay
transformer box and I couldn't find fittings to line up the knockouts on the
relay box with the openings in the other boxes. Run the armored stuff and
NO PROBLEM!

In larger sizes (#10 and larger) it might not be practical but for #12 it's
very easy to use. If that problem comes up, I suspect I will use plastic
conduit.

RBM wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

RBM wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and
asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have
oppressive codes and inspectors.

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to
use,
the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem like such
a
bad
thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

I agree with you, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen
absolutely
horrendous work done by people claiming to know what they're doing.
Personally I think the OP is doing the right thing by asking. The OP did
say
in a previous post, that he got outlet requirements from an electrical
inspector, so it is a little surprising that he didn't ask that inspector
what type of wiring would be required.

I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known what
they were doing. My current house is an example and I've remediated the
various electrical work done by a former utility lineman owner. Granted
utilities go by the NESC, but they should know enough to read the NEC
for their home projects. I have copies of both on my bookshelf and I'm
neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just research properly so I know
what I'm doing.

Funny, now that you mention it, most of the work I'm referring to was done
by utility company lineman. Almost makes the case for oppressive code
inspectors

Or an OSHA investigation to see if high voltage coronas (or liquid
Coronas) are frying the brains of utility linemen...

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:02:47 -0400, "John Gilmer"
wrote:


"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?

If exposed and "accessible" the general answer is NO.

Heretofore, I didn't use armored cable but I bit the bullet and picked up
100' of #12 Al armored stuff.

I ended up buying a $29 gadget that makes it easy to cut the armor. After
that, it many respects it's just as easy if not easier to use than the
romex! You get the right "connectors" and don't forget the bushings (tiny
little red sleves) and the cable clamps and you are ready to go.

My next purchase will be a roll of #14.

I had to connect some "boxes" on my basement wall. One was a relay
transformer box and I couldn't find fittings to line up the knockouts on the
relay box with the openings in the other boxes. Run the armored stuff and
NO PROBLEM!

In larger sizes (#10 and larger) it might not be practical but for #12 it's
very easy to use. If that problem comes up, I suspect I will use plastic
conduit.


I used to like AluSheath cable - can't seam to buy it any more.
A lot nicer to work with than BX.

On 2009-09-11, wrote:

Most AHJs still consider garages on residential property part of the
dwelling so they can enforce things like 210.52(A)(2).

Make that 210.8(A)(2)

210.8(A)(2) specifically talks about accessory buildings, so it seems
to me it applies whether or not you consider the accessory building as
part of the dwelling unit. Do you have another example?

Cheers, Wayne

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article .com, "Pete
C." wrote:

charlie wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

you need to research who this person is. try looking at his posts and
responses in rec.crafts.metalworking.

He occasionally infests rec.woodworking, too, with similar questions.

Add alt.engineering.electrical...and I see the "stab" question at
sci.electronics.basic and sci.electronics.design posted by "moi"

No, I don't really. My point stands just fine regardless of the OP.

Yes, you do really, and no it doesn't. Stryped won't take the initiative
to
find out *anything* on his own -- questions that he could easily answer
with a
minimum of effort, he brings to the newsgroups. Over and over and over.


Were you around for the "how do I level dirt" and pole barn sagas?


And Stryped *does* live in a jurisdiction with Code inspectors.

In article , "Rick" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article .com, "Pete
C." wrote:

charlie wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

charlie wrote:

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior
walls?

what did your building inspector say after you called him and asked?

I suppose that would depend on if the OP has a building inspector
where
he lives. Folks here seem to forget that not all areas have oppressive
codes and inspectors.

you need to research who this person is. try looking at his posts and
responses in rec.crafts.metalworking.

He occasionally infests rec.woodworking, too, with similar questions.

Add alt.engineering.electrical...and I see the "stab" question at
sci.electronics.basic and sci.electronics.design posted by "moi"

No, I don't really. My point stands just fine regardless of the OP.

Yes, you do really, and no it doesn't. Stryped won't take the initiative to
find out *anything* on his own -- questions that he could easily answer with a
minimum of effort, he brings to the newsgroups. Over and over and over.


Were you around for the "how do I level dirt" and pole barn sagas?

No, missed those, I think. Is it worth the time to Google them? Any laughs in
store?

wrote:

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:13:41 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney
wrote:

On 2009-09-11, wrote:

Most AHJs still consider garages on residential property part of the
dwelling so they can enforce things like 210.52(A)(2).

Make that 210.8(A)(2)

210.8(A)(2) specifically talks about accessory buildings, so it seems
to me it applies whether or not you consider the accessory building as
part of the dwelling unit. Do you have another example?

Cheers, Wayne

As AHJ you have 2 choices. You can say a garage is part of a dwelling
and be able to enforce 210.8(A)(2) or say it is something else and
lose the GFCI protection, just to require a 15 minute finish over the
NM
It is a lot easier as the AHJ to use the "subject to physical damage"
clause and require that the NM gets sleeved in a raceway, typically up
to 6.5 feet or to the ceiling.
There are other codes here you also have to deal with. If this is not
part of a dwelling (a residential garage) the fire protection and
ventilation requirements might be onerous for the builder
All that said, I would not second guess what any AHJ might say. As I
said, just the physical damage question runs the whole gamut from no
protection needed to all pipe all the time.

The NEC is not a law of any kind, and the AHJ can pull whatever
unscientific and undocumented requirements they want out of their asses.
This is why you should live in an area without codes and inspectors and
fight to keep the area that way.

On 2009-09-11, wrote:

As AHJ you have 2 choices. You can say a garage is part of a dwelling
and be able to enforce 210.8(A)(2)

From the 2008 NEC:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
(A) Dwelling Units [ . . . ]
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at
or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to
storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use

My point was just that you don't have to consider a detached garage
part of the dwelling unit for it to be covered by 210.8(A)(2). It
would still fall under "accessory buildings that have a floor located
at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms" clause.

It is a lot easier as the AHJ to use the "subject to physical
damage" clause and require that the NM gets sleeved in a raceway,
typically up to 6.5 feet or to the ceiling.

Sure, that's always an option, that clause provides a lot of leeway.

There are other codes here you also have to deal with. If this is
not part of a dwelling (a residential garage) the fire protection
and ventilation requirements might be onerous for the builder

I think most codes have a specific classification for accessory
buildings to a dwelling unit that are not habitable space. For some
reason the NEC only deals with the issue peripherally.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

The NEC is not a law of any kind

Except when the state legislature empowers the state building
commission to adopt appropriate codes, and the building commission
adopts the NEC. Or however it works in your state.

This is why you should live in an area without codes and inspectors
and fight to keep the area that way.

To each their own. Personally, I like the benefits of living in a
densely populated area. One of the downsides is that my neighbor's
actions can have an impact on me, so I want a minimum standard
enforced to reduce the risks involved.

But even in a sparsely populated area, your neighbor's electrical
wiring can cause a fire that could threaten your property. Or if you
have a metallic water distribution system, your neighbor's electrical
wiring can create an electricution hazard for you when working on your
water pipes.

Cheers, Wayne

Pete C. wrote:

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to
use, the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem
like such a bad thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

Alas, "Those of us who know what we're doing" often includes folks who only
think they know what they doing, as my uncles in the Fire Dept. who
investigated fires could tell you. Besides, if the definition of knowing
what you're doing is independent of building codes then someone who wired
his garage with patched lamp cord he found in a dumpster can claim he knows
what he is doing on the grounds that it hasn't burned down yet.

Pete C. wrote:

I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known
what they were doing. My current house is an example and I've
remediated the various electrical work done by a former utility
lineman owner. Granted utilities go by the NESC, but they should know
enough to read the NEC for their home projects. I have copies of both
on my bookshelf and I'm neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just
research properly so I know what I'm doing.

So, you know what you're doing because you've read the code. That almost
sounds as if the right way to do it is found in the code, which naturally
raises the question of why living in an area not subject to the code would
be a good thing....

On Sep 11, 9:39*am, "DGDevin" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known
what they were doing. My current house is an example and I've
remediated the various electrical work done by a former utility
lineman owner. Granted utilities go by the NESC, but they should know
enough to read the NEC for their home projects. I have copies of both
on my bookshelf and I'm neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just
research properly so I know what I'm doing.

So, you know what you're doing because you've read the code. *That almost
sounds as if the right way to do it is found in the code, which naturally
raises the question of why living in an area not subject to the code would
be a good thing....

Codes are artifacts that strive to achieve certain goals. The
important issue (imo) is understanding the intent of the code (what is
the goal / objective) which can be sometimes difficult. Sometimes
people who really dont know (or even want to know) the intent of a
codes section just hang their hat on the words in the code section or
their flawed interpretation of it.

I see the value of codes but I cringe when someone, who clearly has no
understanding of the underlying phenomena or intention, trys to quote
code to me. I see blind code quoting as a substitute for
understanding and rational thought.

as to the question in a previuos post

raises the question of why living in an area not subject to the code would be a good thing....

Why? Here's why.......

one would not be subjected to the oft described capricious demands of
the ill-formed but none the less "powerful" inspector.......

how many times in this newsgroups has the advice of "don't argue with
the inspector" been offered? how many of us have seen the "drive by"
inspection? how many times have we seen work the was "inspected" but
still doesn't meet code & is wrong / unsafe?

It is very difficult to inspect quality into a job ...even with a full
time / on site inspector. It has to be built into it by
knowlegedable people who care about doing a good job. The code helps
work towards this but it isn't the only thing involved.

The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but
in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

Its all about compromises....maybe the OP cant afford to drywall his
garage. Should he put off wiring the garage 'til he can & extension
cords in the meantime? Or wire with NM & do the drywall later? or
maybe he could nail up some of those multi-outlet LED power cords?

cheers
Bob

Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

The NEC is not a law of any kind

Except when the state legislature empowers the state building
commission to adopt appropriate codes, and the building commission
adopts the NEC. Or however it works in your state.

The NEC is still not law, the NEC is simply adopted as a reference
standard, usually with local modifications.


This is why you should live in an area without codes and inspectors
and fight to keep the area that way.

To each their own. Personally, I like the benefits of living in a
densely populated area.

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?

One of the downsides is that my neighbor's
actions can have an impact on me, so I want a minimum standard
enforced to reduce the risks involved.

How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?


But even in a sparsely populated area, your neighbor's electrical
wiring can cause a fire that could threaten your property.

That is a very tenuous connection. There is a much higher probability of
the cigarette tossed from a car driving down your street starting a
brush fire that threatens your property. Or even flaming squirrels
falling from the power lines starting a fire that threatens your
property (documented cases).

Or if you
have a metallic water distribution system, your neighbor's electrical
wiring can create an electricution hazard for you when working on your
water pipes.

Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed to
be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are metal
pipes buried in the ground.

Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own
unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the
worrying about my home to me.

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

I've also seen horrendous work done by people who should have known
what they were doing. My current house is an example and I've
remediated the various electrical work done by a former utility
lineman owner. Granted utilities go by the NESC, but they should know
enough to read the NEC for their home projects. I have copies of both
on my bookshelf and I'm neither an electrician nor a lineman, I just
research properly so I know what I'm doing.

So, you know what you're doing because you've read the code. That almost
sounds as if the right way to do it is found in the code, which naturally
raises the question of why living in an area not subject to the code would
be a good thing....

Codes try to protect the ignorant from themselves, those of us who are
not ignorant do not want or need that intrusion into our affairs or the
costs associated with it. Building inspectors should be available to do
optional inspections for a fee just like private home inspectors. There
is no need to pay for inspections if you understand what you are looking
at. Also realize that the NEC is a reference document that provides a
good starting point, however knowledge of the particular situation often
dictates to a competent person the need to do something different from
the NEC reference minimums.

"Rick" wrote in message ...

Were you around for the "how do I level dirt" and pole barn sagas?

Hey! That's not nice! If all you're used to is leveling water, dirt is *much* harder!

;^)

Eric

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

When someone proposing to do wiring has to ask what kind of cable to
use, the existence of building codes (and inspectors) don't seem
like such a bad thing.

It does to those of us who know what we're doing and live in areas
without codes and inspectors.

Alas, "Those of us who know what we're doing" often includes folks who only
think they know what they doing, as my uncles in the Fire Dept. who
investigated fires could tell you.

No, "those of us who know what we're doing" expressly excludes those who
don't.

Besides, if the definition of knowing
what you're doing is independent of building codes then someone who wired
his garage with patched lamp cord he found in a dumpster can claim he knows
what he is doing on the grounds that it hasn't burned down yet.

No, if it is not wired with overcurrent devices appropriate for the
gauge of wires used, not properly spliced or insulated, etc. they do not
know what they are doing. If on the other hand it is wired with
overcurrent devices appropriate for the gauge of wire used, insulation
is appropriate for the voltage, splices are secure, etc. it may well not
meet NEC code, but be 100% safe.

fftt wrote:

Codes are artifacts that strive to achieve certain goals. The
important issue (imo) is understanding the intent of the code (what is
the goal / objective) which can be sometimes difficult. Sometimes
people who really dont know (or even want to know) the intent of a
codes section just hang their hat on the words in the code section or
their flawed interpretation of it.

I see the value of codes but I cringe when someone, who clearly has no
understanding of the underlying phenomena or intention, trys to quote
code to me. I see blind code quoting as a substitute for
understanding and rational thought.

You make a very good point here. However what you're describing is the
failure of individuals to understand and apply what is in the code rather
than the code itself being flawed.

as to the question in a previuos post

raises the question of why living in an area not subject to the
code would be a good thing....

Why? Here's why.......

one would not be subjected to the oft described capricious demands of
the ill-formed but none the less "powerful" inspector.......

Again, you're describing the failure of an individual to do his job
properly. That a cop likes to hand out speeding tickets doesn't mean that
the speed limit itself is a bad idea and we'd all be better off without
traffic laws.

how many times in this newsgroups has the advice of "don't argue with
the inspector" been offered? how many of us have seen the "drive by"
inspection? how many times have we seen work the was "inspected" but
still doesn't meet code & is wrong / unsafe?

It is very difficult to inspect quality into a job ...even with a full
time / on site inspector. It has to be built into it by
knowlegedable people who care about doing a good job. The code helps
work towards this but it isn't the only thing involved.

When our 60-year-old house was completely rewired a few years ago multiple
inspectors repeatedly commented on the exceptional quality of the
workmanship. They made the electrician "fix" a couple of things, like
adding a separate shutoff for the garage, but on the whole the quality of
the work and what the inspectors were looking for were in harmony. And then
the electrician changed the stuff that we wanted done contrary to code, like
which switch controlled a task light. However he wouldn't have done (and we
would never have asked for) changes that involved safety. It was also kind
of nice that our insurance company agreed that the new wiring called for a
lower insurance rate; somehow I suspect that if I'd been legally able to do
it myself and then claimed that I know what I'm doing they wouldn't have
come to the same conclusion.

The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but
in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

I did my garage interior in OSB--not so pretty, but then it doesn't bother
me it I bash a piece of lumber into a wall when I'm building something out
there. Which reminds me, better get going on finishing that (excuse to buy
a new sander) bookcase out there.

Pete C. wrote:

Codes try to protect the ignorant from themselves, those of us who are
not ignorant do not want or need that intrusion into our affairs or
the costs associated with it.

But it isn't just your affair. If you do it wrong then it becomes the
affair of the fire dept., people whose lives will be on the line. Depending
on where you live it could also be something your neighbors have an interest
in since fires don't respect property lines. It's also the affair of
whoever moves into the home after you're gone.

Building inspectors should be available
to do optional inspections for a fee just like private home
inspectors.

Your local slumlord is salivating at the idea....

Pete C. wrote:

Alas, "Those of us who know what we're doing" often includes folks
who only think they know what they doing, as my uncles in the Fire
Dept. who investigated fires could tell you.

No, "those of us who know what we're doing" expressly excludes those
who don't.

If we had a dollar for every person who was sure he knew what he was doing
but ended up in the hospital anyway, we could throw a hell of a party.

Look, you might indeed know what you're doing when it comes to wiring your
house. But on a larger scale plenty of people *believe* they know what
they're doing--sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. That's why
we have codes and inspectors, to catch the ones who thought they had it
right but really didn't. It isn't good enough to ask the individual if he
knows what he's doing, there needs to be an independent authority because
there are millions of people out there who equate owning the manual with
expertise (and I don't mean that as a dig at you). Hell, I convince myself
I know what I'm doing every time I buy a new power tool; I generally
discover I was wrong.

On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?

Greater ease of finding people with similar interests, greater
cultural resources, less driving and more walking.

How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?

I gave two examples: starting a fire or energizing my metallic water
pipes.

Or if you have a metallic water distribution system, your
neighbor's electrical wiring can create an electricution hazard for
you when working on your water pipes.

Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed
to be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are
metal pipes buried in the ground.

Actually it can and does happen every year. At each electrical
service entrance the metallic water piping is used as a grounding
electrode and connected to the service neutral. So at any electrical
service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on
the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through
the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service
conductors.

Now if someone loses their own neutral service conductor, they may
never notice it as all the current can still return to the transformer
through the metallic water piping system. Then if you are working on
your water piping and disconnect the piping between the water service
lateral and the connection to the grounding electrode conductor, you
have a voltage between the two pieces of pipe. If you bridge that
gap, you can get shocked or electrocuted.

Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own
unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the
worrying about my home to me.

As long as your actions can affect me, in a functioning society we
need minimum standards of behavior.

It's been a pleasant discussion.

Cheers, Wayne

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Codes try to protect the ignorant from themselves, those of us who are
not ignorant do not want or need that intrusion into our affairs or
the costs associated with it.

But it isn't just your affair. If you do it wrong then it becomes the
affair of the fire dept., people whose lives will be on the line. Depending
on where you live it could also be something your neighbors have an interest
in since fires don't respect property lines. It's also the affair of
whoever moves into the home after you're gone.

Yes, it is just my affair. Your paranoia of what might happen does not
justify intrusion onto my property. Your dog might come onto my property
and attack me while I'm mowing my lawn, so I should be able to ban your
inherently dangerous dog.


Building inspectors should be available
to do optional inspections for a fee just like private home
inspectors.

Your local slumlord is salivating at the idea....

Invalid. The local slumlord owns commercial property, not residential.

DGDevin wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Alas, "Those of us who know what we're doing" often includes folks
who only think they know what they doing, as my uncles in the Fire
Dept. who investigated fires could tell you.

No, "those of us who know what we're doing" expressly excludes those
who don't.

If we had a dollar for every person who was sure he knew what he was doing
but ended up in the hospital anyway, we could throw a hell of a party.

Look, you might indeed know what you're doing when it comes to wiring your
house. But on a larger scale plenty of people *believe* they know what
they're doing--sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. That's why
we have codes and inspectors, to catch the ones who thought they had it
right but really didn't. It isn't good enough to ask the individual if he
knows what he's doing, there needs to be an independent authority because
there are millions of people out there who equate owning the manual with
expertise (and I don't mean that as a dig at you). Hell, I convince myself
I know what I'm doing every time I buy a new power tool; I generally
discover I was wrong.

When there is a legitimate test for that "independent authority" to pass
other than political patronage then it might have some validity, but at
the same time any person should be able to go to the town hall, take
that same test, pass and opt out of permits and inspections.

For me, I'm quite happy to take care of my own business, without someone
who frequently knows far less than I do sticking their nose in it.