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Default NM cable in garage?

On Sep 10, 11:01*am, stryped wrote:
Can type NM cable be used in a detached garage with no interior walls?


I bought my house with an unfinished garage. Thats the way it was
wired.

Jimmie
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?


Greater ease of finding people with similar interests,


The Internet takes care of that nicely without suffering the misery of
being stuck in a densely populated area.

greater cultural resources,


Not for any culture I wish to interact with.

less driving and more walking.


I live far from a densely populated area and I drive a pretty minimal
amount.


How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?


I gave two examples: starting a fire or energizing my metallic water
pipes.


And both were failed examples of unsubstantiated paranoia.


Or if you have a metallic water distribution system, your
neighbor's electrical wiring can create an electricution hazard for
you when working on your water pipes.


Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed
to be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are
metal pipes buried in the ground.


Actually it can and does happen every year.


Not the way you seem to think. Find me a citation for a case where a
person eas electrocuted by *their* water plumbing due to an electrical
fault in a *neighbor's* house.

At each electrical
service entrance the metallic water piping is used as a grounding
electrode and connected to the service neutral.


Metallic water piping has not been in common use as a ground for many
years, separate 8' ground rods and more recently two separate 8' ground
rods are used. The metallic plumbing is however normally bonded to the
electrical ground.

So at any electrical
service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on
the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through
the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service
conductors.


Absolutely false. Ground currents on a properly operating residential
electrical system may run a few tens of milliamps, while the neutral
current is tens of amps. A 1/1000th of the total return current does not
even come close to a "good portion".


Now if someone loses their own neutral service conductor, they may
never notice it as all the current can still return to the transformer
through the metallic water piping system. Then if you are working on
your water piping and disconnect the piping between the water service
lateral and the connection to the grounding electrode conductor, you
have a voltage between the two pieces of pipe. If you bridge that
gap, you can get shocked or electrocuted.


This is where you are not understanding the condition. If you bridge the
gap where a water meter is removed *in* the house with the bad neutral
connection on it's electrical service you can get electrocuted. This is
not the case if a neighbor has the bad neutral connection. This is also
why water meters are installed with bonding straps connecting the pipes
on either side.


Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own
unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the
worrying about my home to me.


As long as your actions can affect me, in a functioning society we
need minimum standards of behavior.


And again, they don't. Only your unfounded paranoia is affecting you.


It's been a pleasant discussion.

Cheers, Wayne

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Default NM cable in garage?

On Sep 11, 1:24*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?


Greater ease of finding people with similar interests, greater
cultural resources, less driving and more walking.

How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?


I gave two examples: starting a fire or energizing my metallic water
pipes.

Or if you have a metallic water distribution system, your
neighbor's electrical wiring can create an electricution hazard for
you when working on your water pipes.


Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed
to be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are
metal pipes buried in the ground.


Actually it can and does happen every year. *At each electrical
service entrance the metallic water piping is used as a grounding
electrode and connected to the service neutral. *So at any electrical
service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on
the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through
the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service
conductors.

Now if someone loses their own neutral service conductor, they may
never notice it as all the current can still return to the transformer
through the metallic water piping system. *Then if you are working on
your water piping and disconnect the piping between the water service
lateral and the connection to the grounding electrode conductor, you
have a voltage between the two pieces of pipe. *If you bridge that
gap, you can get shocked or electrocuted.

Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own
unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the
worrying about my home to me.


As long as your actions can affect me, in a functioning society we
need minimum standards of behavior.

It's been a pleasant discussion.

Cheers, Wayne


Wayne-

imo, its all about risk; probability & consequences

the water service electrocution hazard is real but compared when
compared to other sources of deadly danger...how does it rate?
down the list from plan crashes & lightening strikes?

the truth of the matter is...in the USA we're much more likely to eat,
smoke, drink or drive ourselves to death.....fall or fail to swim

the rest are pretty much de minimis, especially for a person with
technical training or education

at what point do the code "improvements" reach to point of diminishing
returns? or add complexity that might actually be counter productive?

cheers
Bob

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Default NM cable in garage?

On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

Not the way you seem to think. Find me a citation for a case where a
person was electrocuted by *their* water plumbing due to an
electrical fault in a *neighbor's* house.


Well, a quick google search shows a reference to the possibility in
"Wiring for Dummies", although it doesn't document an occurence. The
link is http://books.google.com/books?id=wuPdEjNZle8C&pg=PT60.

So at any electrical
service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on
the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through
the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service
conductors.


Absolutely false. Ground currents on a properly operating
residential electrical system may run a few tens of milliamps, while
the neutral current is tens of amps. A 1/1000th of the total return
current does not even come close to a "good portion".


Current takes all available paths. The desired return path is your
neutral service conductor. When there is a metallic copper water
distribution system, an alternate path is through the water pipes to
the neighbor's neutral service conductor (if they are on the same
transformer). If the water service lateral is copper (as it is at my
house), then the resistance of the alternate path may realistically be
only 20 times greater than that of the service neutral. In which case
a little under 5% of the current would flow on the alternate path,
even when everything is working as intended.

This is where you are not understanding the condition. If you bridge
the gap where a water meter is removed *in* the house with the bad
neutral connection on it's electrical service you can get
electrocuted. This is not the case if a neighbor has the bad neutral
connection.


If the neighbor has a bad neutral and his current is returning via the
metallic water piping system, then it is traveling through the water
pipes of everyone else who shares the transformer and water piping
system with him. That might be anywhere from 0-20, say. If you share
the electrical transformer and the water piping system with him, some
of the current is on your water pipes, even if you shut off your main
breaker! If you happen to be the only neighbor sharing the
transformer and the water pipes, then all the current will be on your
water pipes.

Cheers, Wayne
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Default NM cable in garage?

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Or even flaming squirrels
falling from the power lines starting a fire that threatens your
property (documented cases).


I'm largely in your camp on this issue, Pete, but since I fought a
similar battle on another thread I'm on the sidelines this time. But, I
do want to read about the flaming squirrels. Got a link?


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Default NM cable in garage?

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 11, 1:24Â*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-09-11, Pete C. wrote:

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?


Greater ease of finding people with similar interests, greater
cultural resources, less driving and more walking.

How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?


I gave two examples: starting a fire or energizing my metallic water
pipes.

Or if you have a metallic water distribution system, your
neighbor's electrical wiring can create an electricution hazard for
you when working on your water pipes.


Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed
to be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are
metal pipes buried in the ground.


Actually it can and does happen every year. Â*At each electrical
service entrance the metallic water piping is used as a grounding
electrode and connected to the service neutral. Â*So at any electrical
service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on
the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through
the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service
conductors.

Now if someone loses their own neutral service conductor, they may
never notice it as all the current can still return to the transformer
through the metallic water piping system. Â*Then if you are working on
your water piping and disconnect the piping between the water service
lateral and the connection to the grounding electrode conductor, you
have a voltage between the two pieces of pipe. Â*If you bridge that
gap, you can get shocked or electrocuted.

Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own
unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the
worrying about my home to me.


As long as your actions can affect me, in a functioning society we
need minimum standards of behavior.

It's been a pleasant discussion.

Cheers, Wayne


Wayne-

imo, its all about risk; probability & consequences

the water service electrocution hazard is real but compared when
compared to other sources of deadly danger...how does it rate?
down the list from plan crashes & lightening strikes?

the truth of the matter is...in the USA we're much more likely to eat,
smoke, drink or drive ourselves to death.....fall or fail to swim

the rest are pretty much de minimis, especially for a person with
technical training or education

at what point do the code "improvements" reach to point of diminishing
returns? or add complexity that might actually be counter productive?

cheers
Bob


"Just when you think you've got it idiot proof, they come up with a
better idiot."
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Default NM cable in garage?

On Sep 12, 10:05*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article .com,
*"Pete C." wrote:

Or even flaming squirrels
falling from the power lines starting a fire that threatens your
property (documented cases).


I'm largely in your camp on this issue, Pete, but since I fought a
similar battle on another thread I'm on the sidelines this time. But, I
do want to read about the flaming squirrels. Got a link?


Don't have any video or photos.

But next time a 'possum gets fried on the power lines (happened twice
in the last 5 years) behind my house I'll try to get some video.

cheers
Bob

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Default NM cable in garage?


The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but

in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Drywall material does a very good job of keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed or, in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden behind
drywall. You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern "romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"



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On Sep 12, 9:14*pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but


in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? * Drywall material does a very good job of keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed or, in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. * But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. * Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden behind
drywall. * You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. * The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern "romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"


What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob
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What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood


Oh, I didn't know where you were "coming from."

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage


It depends on what you need the strength for. If you intend to run your
car into the wall then if you are stuck with 2x4 uprights, the plywood or
OSB would make it slightly stronger. If that's your problem and you are
starting from scratch, you can over design the wall and make it from 2x6
material with the same spacing. That would be about twice is resistant to
your car's bumper.

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength


Drywall might not be as strong as OSB but it still makes the wall much
stronger. For repairability, I would prefer the drywall and the fire
resistance is a bonus. If you want strength, use two layers and/or
thicker than 1/2".

THE weakness is from moisture. You can get "no paper" sheet material but
it's much more expensive and heavier. I not sure how well OSB will handle
moisture either.




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Default NM cable in garage?

On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:08:51 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 12, 9:14Â*pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but


in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Â* Drywall material does a very good job of keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed or, in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. Â* But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Â* Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden behind
drywall. Â* You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. Â* The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern "romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"


What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob



Georgia Pacific DensArmour Plus walboard. Twice as dense asdrywall,
with fiberglass surface. About the same price (or less) as cheap
drywall and OSB. It's about 86 lbs per 4X8 sheet in 5/8" thickness and
about $20 Canadian a sheet.
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On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:14:21 -0400, "John Gilmer"
wrote:



What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood


Oh, I didn't know where you were "coming from."

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage


It depends on what you need the strength for. If you intend to run your
car into the wall then if you are stuck with 2x4 uprights, the plywood or
OSB would make it slightly stronger. If that's your problem and you are
starting from scratch, you can over design the wall and make it from 2x6
material with the same spacing. That would be about twice is resistant to
your car's bumper.

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength


Drywall might not be as strong as OSB but it still makes the wall much
stronger. For repairability, I would prefer the drywall and the fire
resistance is a bonus. If you want strength, use two layers and/or
thicker than 1/2".

THE weakness is from moisture. You can get "no paper" sheet material but
it's much more expensive and heavier. I not sure how well OSB will handle
moisture either.


Generally not worth crap when it gets damp. It gets real soft and
swells to twice thickness, then falls apart.


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On Sep 13, 5:14*am, "John Gilmer" wrote:
What's the alternative?

drywall over OSB or plywood


Oh, I didn't know where you were "coming from."

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage


It depends on what you need the strength for. * If you intend to run your
car into the wall then if you are stuck with 2x4 uprights, the plywood or
OSB would make it slightly stronger. * If that's your problem and you are
starting from scratch, you can over design the wall and make it from 2x6
material with the same spacing. * That would be about twice is resistant to
your car's bumper.

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength


Drywall might not be as strong as OSB but it still makes the wall much
stronger. * *For repairability, I would prefer the drywall and the fire
resistance is a bonus. * *If you want strength, use two layers and/or
thicker than 1/2".

THE weakness is from moisture. * You can get "no paper" sheet material but
it's much more expensive and heavier. * *I not sure how well OSB will handle
moisture either.


John-

I fail to see why you keep insisting on / touting the strength of
drywall.
The stuff is crap; the only things going for it a cheap, fire
resistant & easy to fix (good thing, cuz it breaks easily)

In a residential application, drywall over OSB or plywood is WAY
stronger than two layers of drywall. Again two layers of 1/2 or one
layer of 5/8" has a better fire rating

Yes, sheathing a wall with drywall makes it much stronger wall than
bare studs alone.......but a wood panel (OSB or ply) is WAY stronger
than drywall.

OSB is a much better material than a lot of people think (me included
but I've been convinced).
APA / building codes give OSB & plywood similar (if not identical)
strength values. The guys at APA have convinced me of its value.

YEARS ago (around the time of the Northridge earthquake) I did some
experiments to "prove" that OSB was an inferior material. I did the
work for an ancient structural engineer who hated OSB & insisted that
only 5-ply plywood was worth a **** for shear walls.

I built identical cripple walls (~2' x 6') using OSB & 5-ply....all
perforemd the same. Darn! The old SE had me over drive the OSB
nails....1/2 the nails 3/16" deep. No change! Darn!........

ok, now I want you to wet the panels....so I hosed them off every day
(work day) for a month.....let them dry & tested them....no change.

Darn! (SE talking) "I still think OSB is crap, 5-ply is the only
way to go)"

(Younger ME talking...that would be me) "Don't confuse an old SE
with test data.

Of course, we've all seen continuously wetted OSB flake apart but that
is not anywhere near even a wet / dry senario in most houses.

cheers
Bob



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On Sep 13, 10:34*am, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 08:14:21 -0400, "John Gilmer"



wrote:

What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood


Oh, I didn't know where you were "coming from."


drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage


It depends on what you need the strength for. * If you intend to run your
car into the wall then if you are stuck with 2x4 uprights, the plywood or
OSB would make it slightly stronger. * If that's your problem and you are
starting from scratch, you can over design the wall and make it from 2x6
material with the same spacing. * That would be about twice is resistant to
your car's bumper.


OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength


Drywall might not be as strong as OSB but it still makes the wall much
stronger. * *For repairability, I would prefer the drywall and the fire
resistance is a bonus. * *If you want strength, use two layers and/or
thicker than 1/2".


THE weakness is from moisture. * You can get "no paper" sheet material but
it's much more expensive and heavier. * *I not sure how well OSB will handle
moisture either.


Generally not worth crap when it gets damp. It gets real soft and
swells to twice thickness, then falls apart.



Generally not worth crap when it gets damp. It gets real soft and
swells to twice thickness, then falls apart.


are you speaking of OSB?

timber structural panels (OSB or plywood) are not meant of continuous
or even intermittent wetting beyond (during construction exposure,
before "dry in") .....timber construction is meant to be kept dry.

The fact that continuously wetted OSB swells & flakes is well
know...but continuously wetted plywood (as in a bathroom subfloor
subjected to long term leak) probaly should be replaced as well.

I threw together a piece of crap shed to store some stuff outside (in
the side yard of the garage). Stick framing, 3/8" OSB "siding" &
roof sheathing; no paper, no roll roofing, no paint. It lasted just
fine for a few years (like 3 to 5) in the SoCal sun & rain. Granted
we only get ~15 inches on average. The stuff would get wet but then
dry out. When it can time to demo it, there was not substantial loss
of strength; yeah the surface was flaky but not terrible.

cheers
Bob
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wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:08:51 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 12, 9:14 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but

in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Drywall material does a very good job of keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed or,
in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden
behind
drywall. You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might
abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern
"romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"


What's the alternative?


drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob



Georgia Pacific DensArmour Plus walboard. Twice as dense asdrywall,
with fiberglass surface. About the same price (or less) as cheap
drywall and OSB. It's about 86 lbs per 4X8 sheet in 5/8" thickness and
about $20 Canadian a sheet.



Sorry but you are wrong..

You don't need DensArmour in a garage...Hell , you don't even need green
board...I've sheetrocked HUNDREDS of garages with regular drywall..Both 1/2
inch and 5/8 inch...As long as it is taped , primed and painted it will be
fine....Same for basements unless there is water running in or some other
major moisture problem...In which case you've got other problems to solve
before finishing the basement anyway...Also DenseArmour is over 20 bucks a
4X8 sheet , regular 1/2 inch drywall is about 10 bucks a 4X12 sheet , Green
board is about 13 bucks a 4X12 sheet and 5/8 is 12 bucks a 4X12 sheet...1/2
inch OSB is about 8 bucks a 4X8 sheet...US money...DenseArmour is not only
TWICE as expensive to buy but it is also about 4 times as expensive to
install and finish tape as it is a PITA to cut and hang and involves coating
the WHOLE sheet with Setting Type Joint Compound because it is a VERY rough
fiberglass face instead of smooth paper....Mold doesn't play well with the
setting type compound for some chemical reason......FWIW...

" in a working garage drywall alone sucks."

Why ??? It is easily repaired and can be re-painted at will with cheap flat
wall paint....Plywood and OSB look like **** painted...It highlites all the
defects , nail holes and cracks between the sheets....You could do sheetrock
over OSB but I think it would be way over kill for a garage unless money
wasn't an object...5/8 Type X Sheetrock is harder and much stronger than 1/2
inch if that is your concern...IMHO....



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benick wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:08:51 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 12, 9:14 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but

in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Drywall material does a very good job of
keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed
or, in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a
wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden
behind
drywall. You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might
abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely
to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern
"romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"

What's the alternative?

drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob



Georgia Pacific DensArmour Plus walboard. Twice as dense asdrywall,
with fiberglass surface. About the same price (or less) as cheap
drywall and OSB. It's about 86 lbs per 4X8 sheet in 5/8" thickness and
about $20 Canadian a sheet.



Sorry but you are wrong..

You don't need DensArmour in a garage...Hell , you don't even need green
board...I've sheetrocked HUNDREDS of garages with regular drywall..Both
1/2 inch and 5/8 inch...As long as it is taped , primed and painted it
will be fine....Same for basements unless there is water running in or
some other major moisture problem...In which case you've got other
problems to solve before finishing the basement anyway...Also
DenseArmour is over 20 bucks a 4X8 sheet , regular 1/2 inch drywall is
about 10 bucks a 4X12 sheet , Green board is about 13 bucks a 4X12 sheet
and 5/8 is 12 bucks a 4X12 sheet...1/2 inch OSB is about 8 bucks a 4X8
sheet...US money...DenseArmour is not only TWICE as expensive to buy but
it is also about 4 times as expensive to install and finish tape as it
is a PITA to cut and hang and involves coating the WHOLE sheet with
Setting Type Joint Compound because it is a VERY rough fiberglass face
instead of smooth paper....Mold doesn't play well with the setting type
compound for some chemical reason......FWIW...

" in a working garage drywall alone sucks."

Why ??? It is easily repaired and can be re-painted at will with cheap
flat wall paint....Plywood and OSB look like **** painted...It highlites
all the defects , nail holes and cracks between the sheets....You could
do sheetrock over OSB but I think it would be way over kill for a garage
unless money wasn't an object...5/8 Type X Sheetrock is harder and much
stronger than 1/2 inch if that is your concern...IMHO....


On an attached garage, in many areas, code requires 5/8" firestop rated
rock on the wall between garage and living space, and on the ceiling as
well unless the firewall is extended all the way up to the roof deck.

--
aem sends...
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Default NM cable in garage?

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:42:43 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:08:51 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 12, 9:14 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok but

in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Drywall material does a very good job of keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed or,
in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden
behind
drywall. You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might
abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern
"romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"

What's the alternative?

drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob



Georgia Pacific DensArmour Plus walboard. Twice as dense asdrywall,
with fiberglass surface. About the same price (or less) as cheap
drywall and OSB. It's about 86 lbs per 4X8 sheet in 5/8" thickness and
about $20 Canadian a sheet.



Sorry but you are wrong..


How am I wrong? I bought 5/8" for $20.15 per sheet (Canadian funds
too)

You don't need DensArmour in a garage...Hell , you don't even need green
board.


I didn't say you NEEDED it.
..I've sheetrocked HUNDREDS of garages with regular drywall..Both 1/2
inch and 5/8 inch...As long as it is taped , primed and painted it will be
fine....Same for basements unless there is water running in or some other
major moisture problem...In which case you've got other problems to solve
before finishing the basement anyway...Also DenseArmour is over 20 bucks a
4X8 sheet , regular 1/2 inch drywall is about 10 bucks a 4X12 sheet , Green
board is about 13 bucks a 4X12 sheet and 5/8 is 12 bucks a 4X12 sheet...1/2
inch OSB is about 8 bucks a 4X8 sheet...US money...DenseArmour is not only
TWICE as expensive to buy but it is also about 4 times as expensive to
install and finish tape as it is a PITA to cut and hang and involves coating
the WHOLE sheet with Setting Type Joint Compound because it is a VERY rough
fiberglass face instead of smooth paper..


Does NOT need to be skim coated, particularly in a garage, and it cuts
easier than standard drywall. Snaps clean every time. It IS heavier to
hang - a 2 man job.

.Mold doesn't play well with the
setting type compound for some chemical reason......FWIW...

" in a working garage drywall alone sucks."


And the DensArmour is MUCH more damage resistant.

Why ??? It is easily repaired and can be re-painted at will with cheap flat
wall paint....Plywood and OSB look like **** painted...It highlites all the
defects , nail holes and cracks between the sheets....You could do sheetrock
over OSB but I think it would be way over kill for a garage unless money
wasn't an object...5/8 Type X Sheetrock is harder and much stronger than 1/2
inch if that is your concern...IMHO....


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Default NM cable in garage?


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:42:43 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:08:51 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Sep 12, 9:14 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
The code allows drywall in garages....in a yuppie garage, maybe ok
but

in a working garage drywall alone sucks.

What's the alternative? Drywall material does a very good job of
keeping
fire from spreading for a time.

Thing is that the wiring is inspected BEFORE the drywall is installed.
Often, new homes are sold with with all the drywall being installed
or,
in
the case of party finished basement, drywall only on one side of a
wall.
Yet the house will have the necessary "occupancy permit."

The wiring inspector (if he actually visits) will assume that after he
leaves the exposed wiring will be covered. But it often isn't.

This is a case where there really isn't much risk. Nominally "exposed"
romex in a basement is less likely to be damaged that romex hidden
behind
drywall. You aren't going to accidentally put a screw through exposed
romex. The main risk, if any, is that someone might literally hand
something from the wiring or put some heavy tools where they might
abrade
it.

But some perfectely legal surface wiring stuff is much more likely to
be
damaged or permit human contact with a live wiring than is modern
"romex"
(NM) which, if you think about it, is "double insulated!"

What's the alternative?

drywall over OSB or plywood

drywall is pretty weak material, esp for a garage

OSB is pretty cheap but has decent strength

cheers
Bob


Georgia Pacific DensArmour Plus walboard. Twice as dense asdrywall,
with fiberglass surface. About the same price (or less) as cheap
drywall and OSB. It's about 86 lbs per 4X8 sheet in 5/8" thickness and
about $20 Canadian a sheet.



Sorry but you are wrong..


How am I wrong? I bought 5/8" for $20.15 per sheet (Canadian funds
too)

You don't need DensArmour in a garage...Hell , you don't even need green
board.


I didn't say you NEEDED it.
..I've sheetrocked HUNDREDS of garages with regular drywall..Both 1/2
inch and 5/8 inch...As long as it is taped , primed and painted it will be
fine....Same for basements unless there is water running in or some other
major moisture problem...In which case you've got other problems to solve
before finishing the basement anyway...Also DenseArmour is over 20 bucks a
4X8 sheet , regular 1/2 inch drywall is about 10 bucks a 4X12 sheet ,
Green
board is about 13 bucks a 4X12 sheet and 5/8 is 12 bucks a 4X12
sheet...1/2
inch OSB is about 8 bucks a 4X8 sheet...US money...DenseArmour is not only
TWICE as expensive to buy but it is also about 4 times as expensive to
install and finish tape as it is a PITA to cut and hang and involves
coating
the WHOLE sheet with Setting Type Joint Compound because it is a VERY
rough
fiberglass face instead of smooth paper..


Does NOT need to be skim coated, particularly in a garage, and it cuts
easier than standard drywall. Snaps clean every time. It IS heavier to
hang - a 2 man job.


True , you can half ass anything I guess...It's your garage and your money
to waste and your hide that will be scraped off if you rub against it with
bare skin...LOL..

.Mold doesn't play well with the
setting type compound for some chemical reason......FWIW...

" in a working garage drywall alone sucks."


And the DensArmour is MUCH more damage resistant.


Do you plan on playing Handball in your garage or perhaps your one of those
who get mad and throw things and or punch the wall ??? If your not worried
about the rough fiberglass face that can tear hide off if rubbed against
then why are you worried about a few dings in the drywall ??? What kind of
"damage" are you talking about , running your car into it ?????? Perhaps a
CEMENT wall would be better.....

Why ??? It is easily repaired and can be re-painted at will with cheap
flat
wall paint....Plywood and OSB look like **** painted...It highlites all
the
defects , nail holes and cracks between the sheets....You could do
sheetrock
over OSB but I think it would be way over kill for a garage unless money
wasn't an object...5/8 Type X Sheetrock is harder and much stronger than
1/2
inch if that is your concern...IMHO....




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Default NM cable in garage?


Smitty Two wrote:

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Or even flaming squirrels
falling from the power lines starting a fire that threatens your
property (documented cases).


I'm largely in your camp on this issue, Pete, but since I fought a
similar battle on another thread I'm on the sidelines this time. But, I
do want to read about the flaming squirrels. Got a link?


The flaming squirrel fire was in Oklahoma I think last year, made CNN
too. It only burned 5 or 6 acres, so not a big one, but it was traced to
a flaming squirrel that fell off a transformer after being fried and set
the dry grass below on fire.


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Default NM cable in garage?

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:36:31 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


True , you can half ass anything I guess...It's your garage and your money
to waste and your hide that will be scraped off if you rub against it with
bare skin...LOL..

have you used the stuff? I have. In a rec room and bathroom. 2 coats
of primer, one of paint, and it is just about perfect. The fiberglass
surface is about as smooth as craft paper. And half ass?
OSB is half ass.
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Default NM cable in garage?


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:36:31 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


True , you can half ass anything I guess...It's your garage and your money
to waste and your hide that will be scraped off if you rub against it with
bare skin...LOL..

have you used the stuff? I have. In a rec room and bathroom. 2 coats
of primer, one of paint, and it is just about perfect. The fiberglass
surface is about as smooth as craft paper. And half ass?
OSB is half ass.


I have used it MANY times.....Mostly in rooms with an inside pool of some
sort or hot tub or VERY wet basements.and perhaps you think it is fine just
half assed done and just painted but that doesn't fly in the "real' world
and I doubt it would fly with you if you were paying to have it done..Must
be fun TRYING to sand the chattered edges of the mudded areas..But you
probably didn't bother to sand it either..What did you do texture the mudded
areas to match the rough fiberglass face ??? If not you would see EVERY
smooth spot you mudded.....But I'm sure it looks "fine"...Especially with
the lights out , right ?? LOL......NEVER seen or used it in a garage in 20
odd years of drywall work...OTOH I have seen and done HUNDREDS of garages
with sheetrock...1/2 and or 5/8....I agree on OSB...It SUCKS as a wall
covering....

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Default NM cable in garage?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:09:17 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:36:31 -0400, "benick"
wrote:


True , you can half ass anything I guess...It's your garage and your money
to waste and your hide that will be scraped off if you rub against it with
bare skin...LOL..

have you used the stuff? I have. In a rec room and bathroom. 2 coats
of primer, one of paint, and it is just about perfect. The fiberglass
surface is about as smooth as craft paper. And half ass?
OSB is half ass.


I have used it MANY times.....Mostly in rooms with an inside pool of some
sort or hot tub or VERY wet basements.and perhaps you think it is fine just
half assed done and just painted but that doesn't fly in the "real' world
and I doubt it would fly with you if you were paying to have it done..Must
be fun TRYING to sand the chattered edges of the mudded areas..But you
probably didn't bother to sand it either..What did you do texture the mudded
areas to match the rough fiberglass face ??? If not you would see EVERY
smooth spot you mudded.....But I'm sure it looks "fine"...Especially with
the lights out , right ?? LOL......NEVER seen or used it in a garage in 20
odd years of drywall work...OTOH I have seen and done HUNDREDS of garages
with sheetrock...1/2 and or 5/8....I agree on OSB...It SUCKS as a wall
covering....



For your information, smart-ass, the mudding was done by a retired
professional taper, and it WAS sanded.
His instructions were to put 2 coats of primer on with a 15mm roller,
then the finish coat with a 12. Even with the lights ON it looks
pretty darn good. It is NOT a "half assed" job. It is better than most
contract houses.

Besides we were talking about using it in a GARAGE, fer fryin' out
loud. My garage, and many others, has just sand-coat plaster. Now
THAT will take the skin off!!!!!!!!
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