I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

I'd make the runs long enough to get to either possible panel location,
and just coil the excess up in the basement ceiling when you do the
connections to the current panel. Romex is pretty cheap when you buy the
big rolls. By the time you buy and fit the boxes, it will get awful
confusing down there. Don't forget to alternate the circuits on the new
kitchen outlet runs, and have dedicated runs for fridge, etc.
Better to have too many outlets than too few- now is the cheap time to
do it. If you end up with several 10-20 foot pieces of extra romex when
you change out the service, they are always handy to have for adding
ceiling cans, or basement and garage outlets.

--
aem sends...

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 20:12:40 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

That is what I would do. I don't think I would want extra lengths of
romex that will be hot until the other work. Having each outlet on a
separate circuit is good for the kitchen.

You should also consider if you do use boxes, they will have to be
accessible when the basement work is done.

Don't forget, kitchen outlets have to be GFCI.

On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:





rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

The way I read the OP they will just be dead ends. And won't be 'hot'
until later hooked up the new panel/service. Or will be hooked up
temporarily to provided some limited outlets until other work is
completed.

On Aug 18, 12:32*am, stan wrote:
On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:



On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down *#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote:

On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:





rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet

Not if they are GFCI.

is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Aug 18, 12:32*am, stan wrote:
On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:



On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down *#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.

GFCIs will not work with a split neutral.

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

You usually install a new service at or near the existing one, as all the
existing cables are going to have to be rerouted into the new equipment, or
a feeder will have to go from the new equipment to feed the existing
equipment if it will remain as a sub panel. For neatness and simplicity, I
would leave long tails and no junctions, especially if you have any heavy
loads like electric ranges or cooktops. FYI, Nec requires a minimum of 2-20
amp circuits for kitchen outlets. All counter top outlets must be GFCI
protected. Every counter space 12" or larger requires an outlet. At any
point along a counter space, you must be within two feet of an outlet

On Aug 18, 2:37*am, rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 18, 12:32*am, stan wrote:





On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:

On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down *#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree double pole brakers and if necessary may need to be GFCI type
breakers; expensive?

On Aug 18, 2:43*am, Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck





wrote:
On Aug 18, 12:32*am, stan wrote:
On Aug 18, 2:17*am, rangerssuck wrote:

On Aug 17, 11:54*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down *#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.

GFCIs will not work with a split neutral.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

On Aug 17, 11:12*pm, rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

I'd pick C and D. Put a new subpanel in the basement just under the
kitchen, wire all the new work to it, and run a single big cable back
to the old main panel, with enough slack in it to re-route to wherever
the new main panel will be. One run of heavy-gauge cable will be less
work than making all those runs in romex, plus you can make the new
main panel a little smaller than it would need to be otherwise.

With your range wired to the new subpanel, you may find that you can
use the routing that its cable used back to the old panel to route
your new subpanel feed. Might save a bit of drilling.

Chip C
Toronto

rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:54 pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...
So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.
So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?
Thanks
The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.

You don't need a separate box for each circuit. Multiple circuits could
go through the same box as long as there are not too many wires in the box.

--
bud--

In article , wrote:

And the "split" receptacles are required by code in many places.

Under the CEC, yes. Under the [US] NEC, no.

On 2009-08-18, Metspitzer wrote:

GFCIs will not work with a split neutral.

120V GFCI will not work with a split neutral downstream of the GFCI.
So if you want to use "Edison circuits" for the kitchen counter top
receptacles, you can either (a) use separate GFCI receptacles at each
location, so nothing is wired downstream of the GFCI or (b) use a
240V/120V double pole GFCI breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2009-08-18, stan wrote:

GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

This may have been true with the first generation GFCIs from the
1980s. But for a modern GFCI, if a motor trips it, it is because the
motor has a ground fault, and the motor should be fixed or replaced.

Cheers, Wayne

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 00:42:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

[snip]

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet

Not if they are GFCI.


A GFCI receptacle can't be split, but there's no reason a
split-receptacle (non-GFCI) couldn't be wired to the LOAD sides of 2
separate SFGC's (4 wires plus ground connected to split receptacle).

[snip]

On Aug 18, 1:21*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:41:53 -0700 (PDT), stan

wrote:
That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage *through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

The trick, if you want a multiwire circuit feeding the kitchen is to
put in a 4" box with 2 GFCI receptacles (one on each side of the MW)
then run 12/2/2 to the split receptacles down stream.

I figured out that in my kitchen it was easier to just use 4" boxes at
each counter top location and pull 2 separate circuits. You never seem
to have enough places to plug things in anyway.

I'm not sure that meets code. You can't have two separately controlled
circuits in the same box - The explanation is that if you turn off the
power to one circuit, the hapless electrician could assume the whole
box is safe to work on. $5.00 could buy him a voltage tester, but...

On Aug 18, 10:15*am, Chip C wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:12*pm, rangerssuck wrote:



I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

I'd pick C and D. Put a new subpanel in the basement just under the
kitchen, wire all the new work to it, and run a single big cable back
to the old main panel, with enough slack in it to re-route to wherever
the new main panel will be. One run of heavy-gauge cable will be less
work than making all those runs in romex, plus you can make the new
main panel a little smaller than it would need to be otherwise.

With your range wired to the new subpanel, you may find that you can
use the routing that its cable used back to the old panel to route
your new subpanel feed. Might save a bit of drilling.

Chip C
Toronto

I thought about that, but:

A) it's a gas range

B) The refrigerator, some lights and at least one outlet will go to a
generator transfer switch. which has to be located at the main panel.

On 2009-08-18, rangerssuck wrote:

On Aug 18, 1:21Â*pm, wrote:

The trick, if you want a multiwire circuit feeding the kitchen is to
put in a 4" box with 2 GFCI receptacles (one on each side of the MW)
then run 12/2/2 to the split receptacles down stream.

I'm not sure that meets code. You can't have two separately controlled
circuits in the same box

That's not true, the NEC allows multiple circuits in the same box.
The requirement you may be thinking of is that if a single device
(like a split-wired receptacle) is connected to two different
circuits, then those circuits must have a common disconnect.

Of course, under the 2008 NEC, any multi-wire branch circuit requires
a common disconnect.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-08-18, stan wrote:

GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

This may have been true with the first generation GFCIs from the
1980s. But for a modern GFCI, if a motor trips it, it is because the
motor has a ground fault, and the motor should be fixed or replaced.

Cheers, Wayne

In a commercial kitchen 15/20A plug-in refrigeration has to be on a GFCI.

--
bud--

"stan" wrote in message
...
On Aug 18, 2:43 am, Metspitzer wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck





wrote:
On Aug 18, 12:32 am, stan wrote:
On Aug 18, 2:17 am, rangerssuck wrote:

On Aug 17, 11:54 pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some
new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going
to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and
panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be
at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I
simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the
kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into
it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to
the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done
this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible,
so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or
an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the
proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to
make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the
other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with
the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.

GFCIs will not work with a split neutral.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

There is nothing in the Nec that says two circuits can't be in the same box,
which Wayne Whitney clarified, and if you really wanted to do a split
system, I don't see any reason that you couldn't do it with a double pole
120/240 GFCI breaker, although it doesn't seem practical to me. I typically
run 12/3 around the entire counter in and out of deep 1900 boxes, alternate
the two circuits, and use independent gfci outlets.

On Aug 18, 10:30*am, bud-- wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:54 pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...
So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.
So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?
Thanks
The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.

You don't need a separate box for each circuit. Multiple circuits could
go through the same box as long as there are not too many wires in the box.

On Aug 18, 5:28*pm, rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 18, 10:30*am, bud-- wrote:



rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:54 pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...
So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.
So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?
Thanks
The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.

You don't need a separate box for each circuit. Multiple circuits could
go through the same box as long as there are not too many wires in the box.

--
bud--

I'm almost certain that I read that you can't have separately
protected circuits sharing a box. Perhaps this only applies to outlet
boxes and not to junction boxes. If I can do it with fewer boxes, that
would be great. Do you have a reference for that?

JP

Or, now that I'm thinking about it more, maybe this falls into a gray
area. The circuits don't actually terminate in the box, but the wires
themselves don't just pass through, either. There will most definitely
be wire nuts involved..

JP

On 2009-08-18, rangerssuck wrote:

I'm almost certain that I read that you can't have separately
protected circuits sharing a box. Perhaps this only applies to
outlet boxes and not to junction boxes. If I can do it with fewer
boxes, that would be great. Do you have a reference for that?

The NEC is a permissive document, so if you believe it is prohibited,
then it is up to you to find an article prohibiting it. But I'm 100%
sure there isn't one, it is done all the time.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-08-18, rangerssuck wrote:

I'm almost certain that I read that you can't have separately
protected circuits sharing a box. Perhaps this only applies to
outlet boxes and not to junction boxes. If I can do it with fewer
boxes, that would be great. Do you have a reference for that?

The NEC is a permissive document, so if you believe it is prohibited,
then it is up to you to find an article prohibiting it. But I'm 100%
sure there isn't one, it is done all the time.

Cheers, Wayne

I agree with Wayne, RBM and gfretwell. The number of circuits in a box
is limited by the number of wires you can have in the box.

If an electrician can't figure it out it is natural selection.

If others can't figure it out they shouldn't be working on electrical.


If circuits have a common neutral, the breaker has to be 2 pole.

--
bud--

stan wrote:
(snip)
2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.


While Stan is correct technically, for the sake of the poor SOB having
to reverse-engineer the wiring 20 years from now at the next remodel, I
would recommend against it. Wire things up vanilla, and label the runs
in the panel (sharpie works great) and at the junction boxes. Plus
labeling the breakers, of course. An annotated floorplan nailed to wall
near the service panel, is a a wonderful gift to electricians not yet born.

--
aem sends...

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Aug 18, 12:32Â*am, stan wrote:
On Aug 18, 2:17Â*am, rangerssuck wrote:



On Aug 17, 11:54Â*pm, Mike Paulsen wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new
circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to
do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel).
I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at
either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply
can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this
week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen
wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's
own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the
panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this
week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so
you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an
access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed
panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make
the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other
location?

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is
not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there
forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could
add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the
junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on
hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not
for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g.
dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down Â*#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!
The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two
reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt
m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan.
Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that
later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers,
as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.


And the "split" receptacles are required by code in many places.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:41:53 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote:

-

That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.
That's what GFCI brakers are made for.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:53:09 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Aug 18, 1:21Â*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:41:53 -0700 (PDT), stan

wrote:
That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage Â*through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

The trick, if you want a multiwire circuit feeding the kitchen is to
put in a 4" box with 2 GFCI receptacles (one on each side of the MW)
then run 12/2/2 to the split receptacles down stream.

I figured out that in my kitchen it was easier to just use 4" boxes at
each counter top location and pull 2 separate circuits. You never seem
to have enough places to plug things in anyway.

I'm not sure that meets code. You can't have two separately controlled
circuits in the same box - The explanation is that if you turn off the
power to one circuit, the hapless electrician could assume the whole
box is safe to work on. $5.00 could buy him a voltage tester, but...
It's up to code if you use "tied" breakers - just like on a typical
"split" (or Edison circuit as you guys call it).

On 8/18/2009 6:51 PM aemeijers spake thus:

stan wrote:

(snip)

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!

While Stan is correct technically, for the sake of the poor SOB having
to reverse-engineer the wiring 20 years from now at the next remodel, I
would recommend against it. Wire things up vanilla, and label the runs
in the panel (sharpie works great) and at the junction boxes. Plus
labeling the breakers, of course. An annotated floorplan nailed to wall
near the service panel, is a a wonderful gift to electricians not yet born.

Amen to that, "aem".

(Although that level of documentation seems to violate the Electrician's
Creed, which must have a clause in it that reads something like "Thou
shalt not label any panels unless the homeowner or inspector maketh you").


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

On Aug 19, 12:39*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 8/18/2009 6:51 PM aemeijers spake thus:





stan wrote:

(snip)

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it
'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet
is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg'
red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you
could drop down *#12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short
distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want
to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and
or wire the red and black together!

While Stan is correct technically, for the *sake of the poor SOB having
to reverse-engineer the wiring 20 years from now at the next remodel, I
would recommend against it. Wire things up vanilla, and label the runs
in the panel (sharpie works great) and at the junction boxes. Plus
labeling the breakers, of course. An annotated floorplan nailed to wall
near the service panel, is a a wonderful gift to electricians not yet born.

Amen to that, "aem".

(Although that level of documentation seems to violate the Electrician's
Creed, which must have a clause in it that reads something like "Thou
shalt not label any panels unless the homeowner or inspector maketh you")..

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

When I worked with the phone company, it was traditional, at a
complicated site, that said something like, "Joe, installer # xyz is
familiar with this installation."

Of course, when Joe retired or got transferred, you were, once again,
out of luck.

wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:53:09 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Aug 18, 1:21 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:41:53 -0700 (PDT), stan

wrote:
That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box.
GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for
anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream
of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because
the difference might be leakage through a human).
So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common
neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would
immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

The trick, if you want a multiwire circuit feeding the kitchen is to
put in a 4" box with 2 GFCI receptacles (one on each side of the MW)
then run 12/2/2 to the split receptacles down stream.

I figured out that in my kitchen it was easier to just use 4" boxes at
each counter top location and pull 2 separate circuits. You never seem
to have enough places to plug things in anyway.

I'm not sure that meets code. You can't have two separately controlled
circuits in the same box - The explanation is that if you turn off the
power to one circuit, the hapless electrician could assume the whole
box is safe to work on. $5.00 could buy him a voltage tester, but...

It's up to code if you use "tied" breakers - just like on a typical
"split" (or Edison circuit as you guys call it).

The NEC only requires a common disconnect if there is a common neutral
(multiwire branch circuit).

--
bud--