I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

"albee" wrote in message
...
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am far from an expert on electric water heaters. I do know that they are
designed so that both elements can not be on at the same time. Because of
that you may not have power to the top element or the bottom at a given
point in time.

I doubt very much that the wiring in you walls has failed. You should be
able to verify 220 to the disconnect box near the water heater.

I suspect you had one dead element and the other failed in the last day or
so. Good news is that replacing an element or even a pair of them is fairly
simple on most units provided the water cut off will shut of the supply.


Colbyt

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:22:17 -0400, "Colbyt"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
.. .
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am far from an expert on electric water heaters. I do know that they are
designed so that both elements can not be on at the same time. Because of
that you may not have power to the top element or the bottom at a given
point in time.

I doubt very much that the wiring in you walls has failed. You should be
able to verify 220 to the disconnect box near the water heater.

I suspect you had one dead element and the other failed in the last day or
so. Good news is that replacing an element or even a pair of them is fairly
simple on most units provided the water cut off will shut of the supply.


Colbyt

Thanks for the reply, but the top receives power first. I just
replaced both thermostats and heater elements about 6-9 months ago.
The wires that I'm testing for power, and receiving 0, are coming to
the upper thermostat from the top - the top two terminals. But really
moot, since I'm not even getting more than 3 volts from the wall into
the top of the heater (is the 2.5 odd? - multimeter set on 200 AC).

Don't have a disconnect box near the heater, unless that's what I'm
referring to as having checked and gotten 2.5 volts. It's simply a
small concave part of the top of the heater, wherein the wires coming
from the wall attach to the wires going into heater.

"albee" wrote in message
...
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

The first thing you need to check, is that you have 240 volts across the two
poles of the breaker. If one leg of the breaker is bad, you'd still get 120
volts from each of them to ground. Once you've determined that you do have
240 volts at the breaker, you can move on to step two.

albee wrote:
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

Test the voltage across the two wires coming out of the breaker. Touch the wire,
not the breaker. If you see 250 or so volts there, and not at the other end of
the wires, replace the wires.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:43:07 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
.. .
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am guessing you have a 240 volt water heater. You must be checking from
each side of the breaker to the ground or neutral to get 120 volts. Go
across the two wires at the breaker. YOu should have 240 , but may not be
showing any voltage, or some very odd low voltage. If so , one side of the
breaker is bad or tripped. The reason you show 120 volts on each side is
the voltage if feeding through the water heater and that is where it is
comming from.

Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

"albee" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:43:07 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
. ..
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am guessing you have a 240 volt water heater. You must be checking from
each side of the breaker to the ground or neutral to get 120 volts. Go
across the two wires at the breaker. YOu should have 240 , but may not
be
showing any voltage, or some very odd low voltage. If so , one side of
the
breaker is bad or tripped. The reason you show 120 volts on each side is
the voltage if feeding through the water heater and that is where it is
comming from.

Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

breakers can go bad. they're cheap.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:52:57 -0700, "charlie"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:43:07 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
...
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am guessing you have a 240 volt water heater. You must be checking from
each side of the breaker to the ground or neutral to get 120 volts. Go
across the two wires at the breaker. YOu should have 240 , but may not
be
showing any voltage, or some very odd low voltage. If so , one side of
the
breaker is bad or tripped. The reason you show 120 volts on each side is
the voltage if feeding through the water heater and that is where it is
comming from.

Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

breakers can go bad. they're cheap.

Thanks, but does that make sense, that I get power at the screws?
(118-119 for one pole, 117 for the other, and 237 for both)

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:55:27 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:52:57 -0700, "charlie"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:43:07 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
m...
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am guessing you have a 240 volt water heater. You must be checking from
each side of the breaker to the ground or neutral to get 120 volts. Go
across the two wires at the breaker. YOu should have 240 , but may not
be
showing any voltage, or some very odd low voltage. If so , one side of
the
breaker is bad or tripped. The reason you show 120 volts on each side is
the voltage if feeding through the water heater and that is where it is
comming from.

Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

breakers can go bad. they're cheap.

Thanks, but does that make sense, that I get power at the screws?
(118-119 for one pole, 117 for the other, and 237 for both)

I IMAGINE this is unrelated, but now no 24 volt to my A/C thermostat.
We had problems yesterday, which happens a couple times a year, but in
all previous instances i get an error code on the thermostat,
indicating there's a problem with the 24 volt line. Now, there's NO
power to it? fwiw...

"albee" wrote in message
...
I'm not getting any power to my upper thermostat, but checked the
breaker and have 120 and each pole there. I checked the top of the
heater, where the wires come out of the wall and attach to the wires
going into the heater, and I get 2.5 volts coming out of the wall.
Any thoughts on where/what happened?! Do I have to dig through my
walls?! FWIW, I'm in Tampa, FL area, home of massive lightning, which
we had yesterday, but only noticed no hot water today, after two
people showered okay. Possibly they had enough hot water even if it
went out yesterday? But still, I have power out of the breaker...?
Thanks.

I am guessing you have a 240 volt water heater. You must be checking from
each side of the breaker to the ground or neutral to get 120 volts. Go
across the two wires at the breaker. YOu should have 240 , but may not be
showing any voltage, or some very odd low voltage. If so , one side of the
breaker is bad or tripped. The reason you show 120 volts on each side is
the voltage if feeding through the water heater and that is where it is
comming from.

"albee" wrote in message
...

Thanks, but does that make sense, that I get power at the screws?
(118-119 for one pole, 117 for the other, and 237 for both)

With the breaker off disconnect the wires where they enter the water heater.
Turn the breaker back on and see what you have there. The reading should be
about the same if not exact as what you have at the screws.

A ruptured element can send the entire load to ground. A bad thermo or
whatever inside the heater can distort the readings.

If you have 220 or 237 coming out of the wires at the heater then you know
the problem is within the heater. Sadly some new parts fail faster than
older ones so don't assume they are good because they are only six months
old.

For the benefit of others do post back your final results in the same
thread.


Colbyt

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:26:12 -0400, "Colbyt"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
.. .

Thanks, but does that make sense, that I get power at the screws?
(118-119 for one pole, 117 for the other, and 237 for both)

With the breaker off disconnect the wires where they enter the water heater.
Turn the breaker back on and see what you have there. The reading should be
about the same if not exact as what you have at the screws.

A ruptured element can send the entire load to ground. A bad thermo or
whatever inside the heater can distort the readings.

If you have 220 or 237 coming out of the wires at the heater then you know
the problem is within the heater. Sadly some new parts fail faster than
older ones so don't assume they are good because they are only six months
old.

For the benefit of others do post back your final results in the same
thread.


Colbyt


That's what I had done previously. I got 0 (2.5 v.) at the wires. I
detached them from the wires going into the heater, and tested the
wires coming from the wall. So, it seemed like the only issue was
whether testing at the screws was accurate, or if the wires might be
loose from the breaker out.

The power from one pole can show at both screws, so both
being 120 to ground doesn't mean much. My gut sense at this
moment, you may have a bad aquastat, and you're getting
power to both sides of the element from one pole of the
power. Check to see the element is getting 240 VAC. I mean
237, sorry.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"albee" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:52:57 -0700, "charlie"

Thanks, but does that make sense, that I get power at the
screws?
(118-119 for one pole, 117 for the other, and 237 for both)

"albee" wrote in message
...
Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater. It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice it.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:39:43 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

The power from one pole can show at both screws, so both
being 120 to ground doesn't mean much. My gut sense at this
moment, you may have a bad aquastat, and you're getting
power to both sides of the element from one pole of the
power. Check to see the element is getting 240 VAC. I mean
237, sorry.
I'm not even getting 237 v. to the upper thermostat, which receives
the power before it gets to the elements. I only get 237 v. out of the
breaker (at the screws; when breaker is off, it's 0, hence that is
indeed my output). But as soon as it's coming out of the wall at the
heater, it's 0.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:19:55 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
.. .
Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater. It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:49:19 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:19:55 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater. It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

That's worth pursuing. Why you don't have 237 volt power to
the WH.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"albee" wrote in message
...

I'm not even getting 237 v. to the upper thermostat, which
receives
the power before it gets to the elements. I only get 237 v.
out of the
breaker (at the screws; when breaker is off, it's 0, hence
that is
indeed my output). But as soon as it's coming out of the
wall at the
heater, it's 0.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:30:17 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:49:19 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:19:55 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"albee" wrote in message
...
Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater. It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

albee wrote:
....

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

That symptom indicates the two legs (red and black) are from the same
phase instead of from the two alternate phases. That's a miswiring
somewhere that connected them both to the same side of the 240V breaker.

I've not followed this thread; just amazed this AM it was still alive
(and seemingly well) so glanced at your response here--did you
disconnect something looking to trace the power earlier? It would seem
perhaps if so that would be where it got crossed up when put back altho
just what would be where w/o two leads on one terminal is puzzling.
Unless there were pigtail connections, would be possible to have
inadvertently connected the two together. If it's been wired this way
all along it never would have had an upper element working.

Trace back from where the two power leads have the 120V and eventually
you'll find they're connected to the same side of the 240V supply.
Wherever that is, split them back apart and get one to each side.
You'll then still see 120V to ground but 240V relative to each other.

--

In article ,
albee wrote:


Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater.
It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the
ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box
comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open
circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot
wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check
each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice
it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).



*If I understand you correctly the wires on the circuit breaker are not the
same wires that come out of the wall and connect to the water heater. If
that is the case there may be a junction box somewhere in between and one of
the connections has come loose. It is also possible that someone made some
sort of hokey splice somewhere and that has failed. Are you able to
physically follow the wire as is comes out of the circuit breaker panel?

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:42:11 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater.
It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the
ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box
comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open
circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot
wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check
each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice
it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).



*If I understand you correctly the wires on the circuit breaker are not the
same wires that come out of the wall and connect to the water heater. If
that is the case there may be a junction box somewhere in between and one of
the connections has come loose. It is also possible that someone made some
sort of hokey splice somewhere and that has failed. Are you able to
physically follow the wire as is comes out of the circuit breaker panel?

Interesting... First off, particularly with how long and convoluted
this thread has become, let me try to set it up anew.

I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
I will look in our Florida non-attic to see if I can find a junction
box.

Are the Black and White wires coming into the water heater from the
wall both supposed to be the same ones that exited the breaker box,
that is, 120 positive (even if the black became white at a junction
box)? Therefore, I indeed should be getting 240 v. if I measure
between the two wires? I currently have 0; I get 120 from the black
one to ground, and 0 from the white to ground.

Those two wires join just above the water heater as Blk to Blk, and
the White joins and becomes Red. So, to the upper thermostat, I have
Black and Red (formerly White) going to L1 and L3. I still get 120
from the Black, and 0 from the Red (formerly White), but measuring
from the screw I get 120, though it's simply measuring the current
from the Black, as it's part of the circuit. And so obviously I don't
get 240 between them.

It SOUNDS like the junction box theory is what's probably going on.
Thanks so much for all the help guys (gals?)!

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:37:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:


Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

I appreciate your sentiments, and clearly, it would be VASTLY
advantageous to fully understand schematics. However, with the help of
knowledgeable (and patient) people, I think one can take the
appropriate measurements and diagnose a problem. Indeed, a lot harder
and one ends up going down some wrong paths (hence the patience
requirement on the helpers' parts), but I think it can be done. I
imagine it is frustrating for you and some with the requisite
knowledge, but I appreciate whatever help anyone can provide. I really
would like to understand electrical issues better, and perhaps
someday...

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 09:33:28 -0500, dpb wrote:

albee wrote:
...

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

That symptom indicates the two legs (red and black) are from the same
phase instead of from the two alternate phases. That's a miswiring
somewhere that connected them both to the same side of the 240V breaker.

I've not followed this thread; just amazed this AM it was still alive
(and seemingly well) so glanced at your response here--did you
disconnect something looking to trace the power earlier? It would seem
perhaps if so that would be where it got crossed up when put back altho
just what would be where w/o two leads on one terminal is puzzling.
Unless there were pigtail connections, would be possible to have
inadvertently connected the two together. If it's been wired this way
all along it never would have had an upper element working.

Trace back from where the two power leads have the 120V and eventually
you'll find they're connected to the same side of the 240V supply.
Wherever that is, split them back apart and get one to each side.
You'll then still see 120V to ground but 240V relative to each other.

Thanks for the reply!
I did disconnect and replace the two breakers, but indeed, they were
two 120v, 30A breakers. So hooked up individually (though I did
realize I have them reversed; haven't switched them back as they're
both to the same appliance). See my other reply in this thread that I
posted about :10 ago, where I included more specifics if you'd like to
read more on this odyssey

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to have 1
two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2 breakers ???

RON
================================================== ======
Remove the ZZZ from my E-mail address to send me E-mail.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

================================================= ==========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to have 1
two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2 breakers ???

RON
================================================= =======
Remove the ZZZ from my E-mail address to send me E-mail.

Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together.
Florida home, built in 1986.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:20:53 -0400, albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 10:42:11 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.

There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater.
It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the
ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box
comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open
circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot
wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check
each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice
it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).



*If I understand you correctly the wires on the circuit breaker are not the
same wires that come out of the wall and connect to the water heater. If
that is the case there may be a junction box somewhere in between and one of
the connections has come loose. It is also possible that someone made some
sort of hokey splice somewhere and that has failed. Are you able to
physically follow the wire as is comes out of the circuit breaker panel?

Interesting... First off, particularly with how long and convoluted
this thread has become, let me try to set it up anew.

I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
I will look in our Florida non-attic to see if I can find a junction
box.

Are the Black and White wires coming into the water heater from the
wall both supposed to be the same ones that exited the breaker box,
that is, 120 positive (even if the black became white at a junction
box)? Therefore, I indeed should be getting 240 v. if I measure
between the two wires? I currently have 0; I get 120 from the black
one to ground, and 0 from the white to ground.

Those two wires join just above the water heater as Blk to Blk, and
the White joins and becomes Red. So, to the upper thermostat, I have
Black and Red (formerly White) going to L1 and L3. I still get 120
from the Black, and 0 from the Red (formerly White), but measuring
from the screw I get 120, though it's simply measuring the current
from the Black, as it's part of the circuit. And so obviously I don't
get 240 between them.

It SOUNDS like the junction box theory is what's probably going on.
Thanks so much for all the help guys (gals?)!

Well, I confirmed which breaker is the one that feeds the black wire
which apparently becomes white at a junction box. And, unfortunately,
it goes outside from the main panel, into where the electric co. meter
is, and then a pipe goes down underground from there. So I have no
idea where a junction box might be for it? It wouldn't be IN the
electric co. meter, would it? It's got their "lock" on it; unsure
about trying to undo that, esp. if not needed.
The other breaker wire goes up to the attic, so I was going to try to
find a junction box up there, but that's the wire that still comes out
black and that has 120v, so no problem with that one.

Odd, too, that all (except the range) other 240v circuits (they're all
two 120v breakers) have one black and one white wire, but not this
one. But, they're definitely the ones, in that they've always been
linked and have always worked as such.

albee wrote:
....

Well, I confirmed which breaker is the one that feeds the black wire
which apparently becomes white at a junction box. And, unfortunately,
it goes outside from the main panel, into where the electric co. meter
is, and then a pipe goes down underground from there. So I have no
idea where a junction box might be for it? It wouldn't be IN the
electric co. meter, would it? It's got their "lock" on it; unsure
about trying to undo that, esp. if not needed.
The other breaker wire goes up to the attic, so I was going to try to
find a junction box up there, but that's the wire that still comes out
black and that has 120v, so no problem with that one.

Odd, too, that all (except the range) other 240v circuits (they're all
two 120v breakers) have one black and one white wire, but not this
one. But, they're definitely the ones, in that they've always been
linked and have always worked as such.

This sounds royally mucked up...

Call an electrician; you obviously aren't experienced enough to fully
understand what you have and figure out what should be and the
descriptions sound as though somebody else has done a hack job.

Now, it _may_ be there's a rational and Code-compliant reason for all
this but surely there's no chance of ever getting it resolved via usenet
given the difficulties of communication...

--

albee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.
================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to have 1
two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2 breakers ???
....
Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together.
Florida home, built in 1986.

That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

albee wrote:
....
I did disconnect and replace the two breakers, but indeed, they were
two 120v, 30A breakers. So hooked up individually (though I did
realize I have them reversed; haven't switched them back as they're
both to the same appliance). See my other reply in this thread that I
posted about :10 ago, where I included more specifics if you'd like to
read more on this odyssey

Have what reversed???

I read the other response; my conclusion is you've got a mucked
installation and you have no hope of solving the problem on your own.

If the previous post about having two leads w/ 120V to ground from each
but 0V between is indeed correct you _STILL_ have the two connected to
the same phase somehow/somewhere; there's simply no other way to do that.

I'm outta' here--this is futile; you need onsite expert help before you
make a big mistake.

--

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:57:09 -0500, dpb wrote:

albee wrote:
...
I did disconnect and replace the two breakers, but indeed, they were
two 120v, 30A breakers. So hooked up individually (though I did
realize I have them reversed; haven't switched them back as they're
both to the same appliance). See my other reply in this thread that I
posted about :10 ago, where I included more specifics if you'd like to
read more on this odyssey

Have what reversed???

I read the other response; my conclusion is you've got a mucked
installation and you have no hope of solving the problem on your own.

If the previous post about having two leads w/ 120V to ground from each
but 0V between is indeed correct you _STILL_ have the two connected to
the same phase somehow/somewhere; there's simply no other way to do that.

I'm outta' here--this is futile; you need onsite expert help before you
make a big mistake.

My mistake on the two leads with 120v to ground; I was measuring from
the thermostat, wherein I wasn't measuring the lead; merely another
point in the circuit, so I was measuring the ONE lead both times. When
I disconnected the thermostat and measured, only one lead had 120v to
ground, the other is 0.
I understand not wanting to address it anymore. I truly don't think
anything's really mucked up, in that it's always worked and all I've
done is replace breakers (and they aren't reversed).

Indeed, it appears that something happened to one of the wires between
the panel and the heater, likely at a junction box.
Thanks again for the help!

albee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:37:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).
You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

I appreciate your sentiments, and clearly, it would be VASTLY
advantageous to fully understand schematics. However, with the help of
knowledgeable (and patient) people, I think one can take the
appropriate measurements and diagnose a problem. Indeed, a lot harder
and one ends up going down some wrong paths (hence the patience
requirement on the helpers' parts), but I think it can be done. I
imagine it is frustrating for you and some with the requisite
knowledge, but I appreciate whatever help anyone can provide. I really
would like to understand electrical issues better, and perhaps
someday...

Me and a friend worked on the big electric water heater for
a beauty shop where the owner was complaining of no hot water.
I checked everything and could find nothing wrong but at the
owners insistence, replaced the electrical parts. Later, we
got called back, still, no hot water. It turns out that one
of the girls who worked for her had been trained (by someone
from outer space) to turn the hot water on and leave it running
while she attended to a customer. Used a Taser on the beautician,
problem solved.

TDD

In article ,
albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:37:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:


Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

I appreciate your sentiments, and clearly, it would be VASTLY
advantageous to fully understand schematics. However, with the help of
knowledgeable (and patient) people, I think one can take the
appropriate measurements and diagnose a problem. Indeed, a lot harder
and one ends up going down some wrong paths (hence the patience
requirement on the helpers' parts), but I think it can be done. I
imagine it is frustrating for you and some with the requisite
knowledge, but I appreciate whatever help anyone can provide. I really
would like to understand electrical issues better, and perhaps
someday...

Those who are patiently leading you step by step through the maze are
not doing you a favor. They're enabling you to stay handicapped by your
ignorance. An electric circuit in a house is a fairly straightforward
thing. In the time you've spent thus far, fiddling around confused, you
could have learned all you needed to diagnose and repair the thing on
your own, and you would have equipped yourself with the greatest tool of
all - something you can use for the rest of your life - knowledge.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:21:52 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

albee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:37:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:

Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).
You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

I appreciate your sentiments, and clearly, it would be VASTLY
advantageous to fully understand schematics. However, with the help of
knowledgeable (and patient) people, I think one can take the
appropriate measurements and diagnose a problem. Indeed, a lot harder
and one ends up going down some wrong paths (hence the patience
requirement on the helpers' parts), but I think it can be done. I
imagine it is frustrating for you and some with the requisite
knowledge, but I appreciate whatever help anyone can provide. I really
would like to understand electrical issues better, and perhaps
someday...

Me and a friend worked on the big electric water heater for
a beauty shop where the owner was complaining of no hot water.
I checked everything and could find nothing wrong but at the
owners insistence, replaced the electrical parts. Later, we
got called back, still, no hot water. It turns out that one
of the girls who worked for her had been trained (by someone
from outer space) to turn the hot water on and leave it running
while she attended to a customer. Used a Taser on the beautician,
problem solved.

TDD

Well, on that advice, I tasered my hot water heater. Still doesn't
work? Hmm...
Thanks for the levity, anyway! I could use a good laugh. You know, a
crawlspace in FL in the summer isn't all that hot afterall. At least I
don't yearn for a hot shower now! In fact, a cold one sounds pretty
darn good.

albee wrote:
....
My mistake on the two leads with 120v to ground; I was measuring from
the thermostat, wherein I wasn't measuring the lead; merely another
point in the circuit, so I was measuring the ONE lead both times. When
I disconnected the thermostat and measured, only one lead had 120v to
ground, the other is 0.
I understand not wanting to address it anymore. I truly don't think
anything's really mucked up, in that it's always worked and all I've
done is replace breakers (and they aren't reversed).
....
Sorry, but I don't think you have the requisite knowledge to recognize
it if it were (or weren't).

That's not intended personally; no reason everybody needs to know NEC,
etc. But, just because something may have worked doesn't mean it was
ever compliant and proper and the description you gave elsewhere about
how/where conductors were going didn't give me any feeling of
comfort--it surely sounded like a homeowner-type job rather than
professional. I can't think of any reason a water heater circuit would
have separate conductors running different directions from the panel.

--

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 11:47:43 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:37:19 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
albee wrote:


Okay, replaced the upper thermostat. Still no reading between L1 and
L3; should there be? Still 120 from each pole to ground.
No reading between the upper element contact screws, so no power is
getting there. Another bad thermostat? I'm stumped (but that doesn't
take much).

You can't fix something until you understand it. The VOM is one of the
strangest tools ever invented, in that it gives people who don't
understand a circuit the idea that they can troubleshoot it. After all,
they have the tool.

Until you can draw and understand a schematic of the system, the VOM is
about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. You poke it around here
and there, and you think it's giving you information, but it isn't. It's
just giving you a useless number.

So step one, draw the circuit. A guy who already understands the system
can skip this step, and that's why you see an electrician just probing
here and there with a meter. But in his head, that circuit is either
clear as day, or becoming clear as he probes.

I appreciate your sentiments, and clearly, it would be VASTLY
advantageous to fully understand schematics. However, with the help of
knowledgeable (and patient) people, I think one can take the
appropriate measurements and diagnose a problem. Indeed, a lot harder
and one ends up going down some wrong paths (hence the patience
requirement on the helpers' parts), but I think it can be done. I
imagine it is frustrating for you and some with the requisite
knowledge, but I appreciate whatever help anyone can provide. I really
would like to understand electrical issues better, and perhaps
someday...

Those who are patiently leading you step by step through the maze are
not doing you a favor. They're enabling you to stay handicapped by your
ignorance. An electric circuit in a house is a fairly straightforward
thing. In the time you've spent thus far, fiddling around confused, you
could have learned all you needed to diagnose and repair the thing on
your own, and you would have equipped yourself with the greatest tool of
all - something you can use for the rest of your life - knowledge.

Well, first off, in hindsight, possibly. On the other hand, it
might've been the first thing I tried and I'd have been done. That's
happened in the past. And I've also discovered that, not using what I
do learn very often, I likely would forget some critical aspects,
anyway.
Secondly, I don't think that learning basic schematics would've been
a solution for me here, as it appears that the problem (and I could be
wrong here) isn't my lack of knowledge of schematics that I could've
learned in a few hours, but rather knowing where one wire is joined in
a junction box. I doubt that is contained in a book, at least a
beginning schematics one. And even knowing this only could've been
figured out after some diagnosing, anyway, to figure out that it
wasn't something else.
Knowing what it likely is, I still can't find where it is in the
attic, and hence will end up calling an electrician. But, it's been
informative nevertheless, and in hindsight, this would've been an
easier decision. But then, in hindsight they all are.
Despite my disagreement on that, I do appreciate your feedback and
suggestions.

In article ,
albee wrote:

snip

The only thing we have to go on in evaluating one another's levels of
skill and experience in a given discipline, is the choice of words they
use. If a poster uses "voltage" when he means "current," or he refers to
every electrical problem as a "short," we can reasonably assume he's a
beginner.

So forgive me if I've underestimated you, with this rhetorical question,
meant as a self-test: Can you draw a schematic of a flashlight circuit,
which consists of a battery, a switch, and a bulb, and then, using your
VOM, troubleshoot the flashlight if it isn't working?

Would you be able to tell whether the bulb was burned out, the battery
was dead, the switch was bad, or if a connection or wire was faulty? (if
the latter, isolate it to a particular connection or the pair of
connections that represent two ends of a single conductor) If so, you're
already halfway to 'shooting your own heater, but apparently need a bit
more "theory." If not, I suggest you spend the weekend arming yourself
with that skill.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:53:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

albee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.
================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to have 1
two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2 breakers ???
...
Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together.
Florida home, built in 1986.

That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

MYSTER SOLVED:

So, turns out that TECO, Tampa Electric, has a control on my water
heater. I knew they did that on my pool pump; didn't know about the
heater. So THAT'S the junction where the black turns to white, and
where they turned the power to the white off. Well, they do that
periodically at peak times, in exchange for a small rebate to us. BUT,
their box is malfunctioning, thus shutting down the power to one of
the 120 v lines for the last day! Called them, they said it wasn't
being controlled (but my box says it is), and so they're coming out to
fix it. Arghh... LOL...

Thanks so much for all the help people!

dpb wrote:
albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to
have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to
have 1 two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2
breakers ???

...

Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together. Florida home,
built in 1986.


That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

What bothers me about one of the OP's description (If I got it right) is
that he says the wires connected to those two breakers are exiting
through two different places in the breaker box. As the OP put it in one
of his posts:

***********
I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
***********

Is it just me, or does this sound weird to anyone else in this thread?

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty funny if we've been the unwitting
victims of a very competant troller, wouldn't it?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.