On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:24:04 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:

dpb wrote:
albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:


So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to
have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to
have 1 two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2
breakers ???

...

Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together. Florida home,
built in 1986.


That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

What bothers me about one of the OP's description (If I got it right) is
that he says the wires connected to those two breakers are exiting
through two different places in the breaker box. As the OP put it in one
of his posts:

***********
I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
***********

Is it just me, or does this sound weird to anyone else in this thread?

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty funny if we've been the unwitting
victims of a very competant troller, wouldn't it?

Jeff
Sorry that these responses didn't get a sequenced as would've been
helpful.
No, not a troll. I (OP) did say that, and have figured it out. The two
exit points are because the one leg of it went to a Tampa Electric
controlling box outside, the returned as a white wire. But, without
power as it's being (incorrectly) controlled. They're on their way out
to fix it. All for nought (sp?), save for yet another learning
experience

Thanks again for all the help.

So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

================================================== =========
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to
have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to
have 1 two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2
breakers ???

...

Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together. Florida home, built
in 1986.


That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

What bothers me about one of the OP's description (If I got it right) is
that he says the wires connected to those two breakers are exiting through
two different places in the breaker box. As the OP put it in one of his
posts:

***********
I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
***********

Is it just me, or does this sound weird to anyone else in this thread?

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty funny if we've been the unwitting
victims of a very competant troller, wouldn't it?


*I don't think that anything surprises me anymore. With so many homeowners
doing their own work without experience, insight or tools anything is
possible.

In several condo developments that I service there is a relay and control
box tied into the electric meter. It shuts the electric water heater off
during the day and turns it on at night and weekends. There is a button to
push that will heat the water for one hour during the day if needed.
Sometimes they go bad and I get a call. The power company no longer
supports this program. The customer has two choices. They can pay me (Or
another contractor) to remove it or contact the third party service company
that the power company has contracted to remove it. I give out the number
to the customer and let them decide. Most of the time they go with the
third party provider because it is free.

Some developments have a box tied into the A/C condenser outside which the
power company can cycle on and off during peak periods.

albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:24:04 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:


dpb wrote:

albee wrote:


On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:


albee wrote:



So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

============================================= ==============
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to
have
two 30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to
have 1 two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2
breakers ???

...


Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together. Florida home,
built in 1986.


That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

What bothers me about one of the OP's description (If I got it right) is
that he says the wires connected to those two breakers are exiting
through two different places in the breaker box. As the OP put it in one
of his posts:

***********
I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
***********

Is it just me, or does this sound weird to anyone else in this thread?

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty funny if we've been the unwitting
victims of a very competant troller, wouldn't it?

Jeff

Sorry that these responses didn't get a sequenced as would've been
helpful.
No, not a troll. I (OP) did say that, and have figured it out. The two
exit points are because the one leg of it went to a Tampa Electric
controlling box outside, the returned as a white wire. But, without
power as it's being (incorrectly) controlled. They're on their way out
to fix it. All for nought (sp?), save for yet another learning
experience

Thanks again for all the help.

Well, that sure does make sense now, and its suprising that none of the
respondents here thought to ask you about what I'll call an "off peak"
switching setup.

I'm wondering if contemporary codes allow for breaking just one leg of
the 230 volts going to the water heater the way yours is wired.

But it's sure been a learning experience for you and us...

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

albee wrote:
....
So, turns out that TECO, Tampa Electric, has a control on my water
heater. ...

Ahhhh....ok that's a reason for a water heater circuit to have separate
conductors heading off somewhere else.

So, I'll conclude it likely is ok; as for Jeff's question switching
only one leg, I'm virtually certain that's ok--this isn't a disconnect,
it's just a control no different than the thermostat. As long as the
disconnect is at one place and ganged correctly, it's not a problem.

That's one I hadn't thought of--never had demand metering/rationing so
didn't think of it.

I was concerned first of inexperience by OP and second of some miswired
kludge.

The upshot is, though, probably changed out a thermostat and what else
for no reason since didn't troubleshoot from beginning to the end to
determine where in the circuit the problem arose. So, the object lesson
here is to work backwards to actually determine where the failure point
is before throwing parts at a problem...

Anyway, glad the mystery is, indeed, solv'uhed.

--

albee wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:49:19 -0400, albee wrote:

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:19:55 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

"albee" wrote in message
...
Thanks. I just re-checked just to make sure, and still the same,
although I did confirm that it's 240 between both poles. Actually,
fwiw, it's 237, and going from each to the neutral is 118 and 117 (I
think; could've been 118 and 119). But, clearly not zero.

I was measuring at the breaker by touching the screws, but thought it
possible that the wires weren't screwed in tightly. I tried testing
behind the screws, but couldn't get a reading. Am I right that
touching the screws won't necessarily give me what's coming OUT of the
breaker? I wiggled, or tried to, the wires, but didn't note any
looseness, and re-checked at the heater, still with no voltage.

I guess next step is to undo and re-attach the wires at the breaker?
Haven't done that yet, and hesitate to if not needed.
There is no use to worry about a couple fo volts differance.

Cut off the breaker and test to make sure the voltage is really off.
Switch the meter to ohms and see what the resistance is to the heater. It
should be very low on the two wires and almost an open circuit to the ground
wire. If the resistance is low on the two wires in the breaker box comming
from the heater, the breaker must be bad. If it is almost an open circuit,
go to the heater and measuer the resistance of the wires going to the
breaker. If low, you have a bad wire. If high, the element is probably
open, you can measuer that.

You may also want to make sure the power is off, then hook both hot wires to
the ground at the water heater. Then go to the breaker box and check each
wire to ground. If one is low and one is ooen, you have just found your
open wire and will have to trace the wiring and maybe replace or splice it.

Thanks for the great, specific advice! In exchange, I have a feeling
I'm going to be asking a stupid question.
So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them. Right? I
get 1. Likewise, when testing from each wire to the neutral bar
holding all the white wires, that earlier I used to measure the 120 v
coming into each main wire to the box.
I went to the heater, and also measured the resistance between the
same wires coming out of the wall, and also got 1. likewise when I
went from one of the wires to a ground (metal part of the heater).

Did I do this right? what does this tell us? Sorry for my ignorance,
and thanks so much for the help.

UPDATE: LOL... okay, very well could be some "user error" in place
here; what a shock, huh? I replaced both breakers, just in case. I get
120 between each and neutral. Went to where the wires came out of the
wall and joined with the wires going into the heater... and realized
that one was white (flesh tone), and the other black. Duh... So,
obviously the black is coming from one of the breakers; not sure
where the other black goes into the heater, but it isn't this
off-white one coming out of the wall.

Still no reading between the black and off-white wires coming from the
wall; 120 between the black and ground; nothing between off-white and
ground.

A Black and Red wire are attached to the top two poles of the upper
thermostat, coming in from above. No voltage between them. This should
read 120 or 240, depending on system, right? I do get 120 between each
pole and ground, though.
Pushing the reset button does nothing, so it apparently wasn't
tripped.
Does the lack of voltage between the two top poles, L1 and L3,
indicate a bad thermostat and it's as simple as that?!

This may sound simple, but did anyone happen to turn off the switch for
the water heater? I don't know when they started using them but I found
one in my house, it looks just like a light switch. I took a permanent
marker and labeled it on the cover plate.

On Aug 15, 11:41*pm, Tony wrote:

This may sound simple, but did anyone happen to turn off the switch for
the water heater? *I don't know when they started using them but I found
one in my house, it looks just like a light switch. *I took a permanent
marker and labeled it on the cover plate.

Maybe just turning off one leg of the supply. Letting power still
exist at the device. Something for the amateurs to discover the
hard way.

On Aug 15, 5:21*pm, jeff_wisnia
wrote:
albee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:24:04 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:

dpb wrote:

albee wrote:

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:38:37 GMT, (Ron in
NY) wrote:

albee wrote:

So, I turned the breakers off (two 30 amp ones), and pulled the wires
out of the breakers to measure the resistance between them.

============================================= ==============
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on this---You are not supposed to
have
two *30 amp breakers feeding your water heater. You are supposed to
have 1 two pole breaker. Are you sure you are checking the right 2
breakers ???

...

Thanks! LOL... yeah, right ones, as when I turn them off the power
goes off. All of my "dual" appear to be singles, with the two switches
bound by a metal clip so that they switch together. Florida home,
built in 1986.

That's OK, but _ONLY_ as long as they are "ganged" and were designed by
the OEM to so be...

--

What bothers me about one of the OP's description (If I got it right) is
that he says the wires connected to those two breakers are exiting
through two different places in the breaker box. As the OP put it in one
of his posts:

***********
I've replaced both 30A breakers that go from my box, and to my water
heater. FWIW, I just realized when I replaced them I reversed them, so
that the breaker exiting through the bottom of the panel is on top and
the breaker on the bottom exits the panel on the top. But should not
matter; both are 30 amp and go to the same appliance.
They each measure 120 individually, and measuring between them I get
240.
***********

Is it just me, or does this sound weird to anyone else in this thread?

Come to think of it, it'd be pretty funny if we've been the unwitting
victims of a very competant troller, wouldn't it?

Jeff

Sorry that these responses didn't get a sequenced as would've been
helpful.
No, not a troll. I (OP) did say that, and have figured it out. The two
exit points are because the one leg of it went to a Tampa Electric
controlling box outside, the returned as a white wire. But, without
power as it's being (incorrectly) controlled. They're on their way out
to fix it. All for nought (sp?), save for yet another learning
experience

Thanks again for all the help.

Well, that sure does make sense now, and its suprising that none of the
respondents here thought to ask you about what I'll call an "off peak"
switching setup.

I'm wondering if contemporary codes allow for breaking just one leg of
the 230 volts going to the water heater the way yours is wired.

But it's sure been a learning experience for you and us...

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

When I had one of the load sharing devices hooked to my heater they
put a big sticker on the water heater with a phone # to call if there
was a problem. When I had a problem and called them they wanted to
know if I was a licensed electrician. They would not tell me anything
when I told them I wasn't.

Jimmie

Michael B wrote:
On Aug 15, 11:41 pm, Tony wrote:

This may sound simple, but did anyone happen to turn off the switch for
the water heater? I don't know when they started using them but I found
one in my house, it looks just like a light switch. I took a permanent
marker and labeled it on the cover plate.

Maybe just turning off one leg of the supply. Letting power still
exist at the device. Something for the amateurs to discover the
hard way.

Actually it's a double pole single throw (DPST) switch so it turns off
both legs. Years ago I pulled it out to check it, I forget what the
current rating is but by the feel of it you can tell it's not a little
light switch.