One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

The Ranger

On Jul 21, 1:10*pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:
One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

Draft a fair contract. Usually people only put in "big stick" clauses
and forget about the carrot. If you are up front with the contractor
and tell him the clauses give you performance insurance and give him
an opportunity, a confident contractor will appreciate it.

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 1:10 pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:
One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor
not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with
associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I
asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

Draft a fair contract. Usually people only put in "big stick" clauses
and forget about the carrot. If you are up front with the contractor
and tell him the clauses give you performance insurance and give him
an opportunity, a confident contractor will appreciate it.

R

There are also drawbacks to deadline and performance clauses...You get
EXACTLY what's in the contract...If it's not included in the contract it
ain't happening...No changing your mind on ANYTHING and no since your
here.... or we've decided ect , ect....No moving furniture or we're having
company this weekend so could you please clean up really good Thursday and
not be here on Friday crap...They will be there including the weekend if
need be and **** will be happening regardless of what's happening in your
life (like getting sick or having to be gone for a while) and things like
cleaning up good everyday won't be happening either...You had better make
sure you think of EVERYTHING before YOU sign it including the quality of
materials (think under budget) and he will not start UNTILL everything that
has to be ordered is there ready to go....You will pay the performance money
even if that hole in the bedroom wall is still there that the plumber had to
cut out and repairing it and re-painting the wall wasn't in the contract or
the light bar you decided to add is still sitting on the floor or if SWMBO
has decided the paint color that she picked out is all wrong , ect...If you
know what I mean...Been there , done that , got the t-shirt and the
performance money....LOL..They will do the "extras" AFTER the money for the
contract work is paid including the bonus at an EXTRA cost....Not a good
idea unless it is pretty cut and dry and you know what you're doing...
IMHO....Alot can and does go wrong...

On Jul 21, 8:26*pm, "benick" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

...
On Jul 21, 1:10 pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:

One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor
not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with
associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I
asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

Draft a fair contract. Usually people only put in "big stick" clauses
and forget about the carrot. If you are up front with the contractor
and tell him the clauses give you performance insurance and give him
an opportunity, a confident contractor will appreciate it.

R

There are also drawbacks to deadline and performance clauses...You get
EXACTLY what's in the contract...If it's not included in the contract it
ain't happening...No changing your mind on ANYTHING and no since your
here.... or we've decided ect , ect....No moving furniture or we're having
company this weekend so could you please clean up really good Thursday and
not be here on Friday crap...They will be there including the weekend if
need be and **** will be happening regardless of what's happening in your
life (like getting sick or having to be gone for a while) *and things like
cleaning up good everyday won't be happening either...You had better make
sure you think of EVERYTHING before YOU sign it including the quality of
materials (think under budget) and he will not start UNTILL everything that
has to be ordered is there ready to go....You will pay the performance money
even if that hole in the bedroom wall is still there that the plumber had to
cut out and repairing it and re-painting the wall wasn't in the contract or
the light bar you decided to add is still sitting on the floor or if SWMBO
has decided the paint color that she picked out is all wrong , ect...If you
know what I mean...Been there , done that , got the t-shirt and the
performance money....LOL..They will do the "extras" AFTER the money for the
contract work is paid including the bonus at an EXTRA cost....Not a good
idea unless it is pretty cut and dry and you know what you're doing...
IMHO....Alot can and does go wrong...

So you wouldnt clean up everyday just to meet a deadline, then your
deadline was too short, you should have known better

On Jul 21, 12:10*pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:
One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

The Ranger

I would take deadlines all the time if my crew was reliable and I knew
I could meet it, just be fair and realistic and give extra time, the
contractor wants to finish to be paid. If someone wont accept a
deadline, look elsewhere.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?


A long, long time ago... Before there was text messaging, video games, and
TV, people used to talk to each other. This was called "conversation". More
on this at the following link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 12:10 pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:
One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor
not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with
associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I
asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

The Ranger

I would take deadlines all the time if my crew was reliable and I knew
I could meet it, just be fair and realistic and give extra time, the
contractor wants to finish to be paid. If someone wont accept a
deadline, look elsewhere.

Deadlines are pointless on a very old house. It doesn't matter what's being
done, there is always some unforeseen problem that comes up and blows the
whole schedule. Even if it's a cheap fix it takes time. Now, with a 100
year-old house or newer that might not be an issue, but with an old house,
all bets are off.

Bill wrote:
How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?


A long, long time ago... Before there was text messaging, video games, and
TV, people used to talk to each other. This was called "conversation". More
on this at the following link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation


I don't believe people did that. Can I put that on my blog?

Bill wrote:
How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?


A long, long time ago... Before there was text messaging, video games, and
TV, people used to talk to each other. This was called "conversation". More
on this at the following link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation



Exactly, the best projects I was ever involved with typically involved
nothing more than extensive discussion and a handshake. The worst seemed
to be proportional to the size of the contract.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 12:10 pm, "The Ranger" cuhulain _ wrote:
One of my friends just finished a bathroom remodel where the contractor
not
only finished ahead of schedule but undercost. My friend mentioned that he
always puts two clauses in any contracts; a deadline clause with
associated
penalties and an ahead of schedule clause.

I remember when we were remodeling, this wasn't something any of the
contractors would consider but we were also in a boom-economy. When I
asked
him how he gets his contractors to agree, he was cagey about it.

How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?

The Ranger

I would take deadlines all the time if my crew was reliable and I knew
I could meet it, just be fair and realistic and give extra time, the
contractor wants to finish to be paid. If someone wont accept a
deadline, look elsewhere.

It's a two edged sword...Miss a deadline and I miss the bonus and have to
pay...Meet the deadline and I get a bonus...I will do EVERTHING possible to
meet that deadline...If it means working right up to quiting time and not
cleaning up and working Sat. So be it...I WILL make it as I pointed out in
my first post....I don't get to set the deadline...It is USUALLY a move in
date that isnt negiotable....As a sub-contractor (drywall) , the genral says
you got X amount of time to get it done so I can meet my deadline and says
I'll give you X amount of money as a bonus to make it happen or lose the
bonus and pay a penalty....Haven't lost one YET ...Although the homeowners
weren't happy with me there working in the kitchen while having company for
the weekend once to make a cabinet delivery date...No place to store them
all plus a deadline looming for the general...LOL...Had to git'er
done...Nice bonus too....

I asked:
How do you draw up such a contract without blowing
negotiations?

So Bill felt compelled to fire up his neurons and after long thought and
much internal debate posted:
A long, long time ago... Before there was text messaging,
video games, and TV, people used to talk to each other.
This was called "conversation".

I know the subtly of what I asked went streaking on past you and your
butterfly net but I asked about keeping the conversation going. The two
contractors I brought it up to were totally against having anything like it
in their contracts. One even closed up his binder and walked out when I
asked about providing a bonus if he finished early -- apparently because he
knew there was going to be, "and if you don't finish on time."

So, Bill... Let's try again.

The Ranger
--
"It often amazes me at the complexity a simply-worded e-mail can convey to
so many different people. And yet, so many people willingly complain that
e-mail is an imperfect tool for communicating those same simple ideals." --
SG, 2/9/92, rpc

benick wrote in message
. ..
"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Draft a fair contract.

Do you happen to have any sites with samples online that you would
recommend?

There are also drawbacks to deadline and performance
clauses...You get EXACTLY what's in the contract...If
it's not included in the contract it ain't happening...No
changing your mind on ANYTHING and no since your here.... or we've decided
ect , ect....No moving furniture
or we're having company this weekend so could you
please clean up really good Thursday and not be here
on Friday crap...They will be there including the weekend
if need be and **** will be happening regardless of what's
happening in your life (like getting sick or having to be gone
for a while) and things like cleaning up good everyday
won't be happening either...You had better make sure
you think of EVERYTHING before YOU sign it including
the quality of materials (think under budget) and he will
not start UNTILL everything that has to be ordered is
there ready to go....You will pay the performance money even if that hole
in the bedroom wall is still there that the
plumber had to cut out and repairing it and re-painting
the wall wasn't in the contract or the light bar you decided
to add is still sitting on the floor or if SWMBO has decided
the paint color that she picked out is all wrong, ect...If you
know what I mean...Been there, done that, got the t-shirt
and the performance money....LOL..They will do the
"extras" AFTER the money for the contract work is
paid including the bonus at an EXTRA cost....Not a
good idea unless it is pretty cut and dry and you know
what you're doing... IMHO....Alot can and does go
wrong...

Thanks for the warnings. I understand the downside of locking someone into a
contract with a negative. I just witnessed the positive, though, and was
hoping for some ideas to prompt the clauses into the contract without losing
a good contractor.

As far as cleaning up after a workday, change-orders, etc., those are worked
into the contract in the beginning. I work cheap and have moderate
apprentice skills that have often proven my worth on the worksite.

Again, thanks for wearing your BTDT T-shirt.

The Ranger
--
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely, in an attractive and well-preserved body. Rather one should skid in
sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used
up, totally worn out while screaming 'WOO HOO! What a ride!'"
-- Anonymous

George warned in message
...
[snip Communicate warning]
Exactly, the best projects I was ever involved with
typically involved nothing more than extensive
discussion and a handshake. The worst seemed to be proportional to the
size of the contract.

LOL. Good warning.

I don't know of anyone using the handshake and word of honor system anymore
but I'm glad they're still out there, I think.

The contractor that we settled on to remodel our home was Old School but
he's since retired which is why I was looking for a new contractor. It's
also why I wanted to find out a way of broaching the carrot-and-stick.

The Ranger
--
The 56k modem teaches us patience, humility, and the love of quiet
contemplation, grasshopper.
-- Kylie, AM Nov. '02

George wrote:
Bill wrote:
How do you draw up such a contract without blowing negotiations?


A long, long time ago... Before there was text messaging, video games,
and TV, people used to talk to each other. This was called
"conversation". More on this at the following link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation

I don't believe people did that. Can I put that on my blog?

yeah, I was gonna call BS, but wiki says (thank god for
all-knowing wiki!):

A conversation is communication between multiple people

he's referring to twitter! I hadn't thought about it, but there's
probably *tons* of contractors on twitter!

Bet there's one DBA "Home, tweet home, Inc."


--
PB
"I suspect you're an arrogant little ****ant who grew up in the
Red Bull generation." - CJW