It is a fact that if a nation PRINTS trillions of dollars to solve its
financial problems, that hyper inflation and collapse will follow.


However.... our US govt is NOT printing any money,...... it is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest rates so
people can afford to buy homes and build businesses etc... little
actual money is being printed though.


all this is happening as deflation due to tough economic times takes
the hot air out of the housing and stock markets etc. the collapsing
tax base will also force the bloat out of government... all if
tgus us a good thing.


This deflation will be painful and *could lead to total collapse....
unless enough trillions in added *credit are issued into the economy
through the banks to keep things afloat... floating on a massive sea
of *credit. thats whats happening now...


its all just barely floating on a massive sea of credit... but it is
doing this as the housing and stock market bubbles deflate. thats a
good and a necessary thing... so far we are deflating these bubbles,
and our bloated state governments without total collapse.



With luck that will be continued.



***** again, this sea of funny money **is not actually money***
(just credit), no extra currency is printed for most of it...


the US Dollar may very well *regain its value, when the FED raises
interest rates again after these bubbles hit bottom... that will be
tricky and it remains to be seen how that will be pulled off,
especially given the 300 trillion dollars or so in hot air derivitives
(insurance policies used to guarantee bad loans).



it may be that as the large insurers, such as AIG go broke, file
bankrupcy and defualt that a good percentage of this derivitive mess
will simply evaporate (like so many trillions in the worlds pension
funds have already evaporated.)


as the work force gets more desperate, and half of the bloated govt
work force is laid off, and the rest got their bloated retirements cut
by 70% or so, and the social security recipients are unfortunately cut
back to starvation levels..... and we start manufacturing in the US
again...we will recover...... it will be a nasty next 15 to 20 years
(time span directly calculated from life expectancy tables)


all of that is necessary...and will happen on the current path if we
are lucky... depends on many things though, luck, oil prices, what we
do about nuclear energy, and what other nations do etc..

***

when that stabilizes, my guess in 10 or 20 years of tight times,
during which time the 80 million social security recipients will all
be deader than hell... restoriing the national economy... full
recovery will begin, that will take another 15 to 20 years... and we
have seen these time frames recently in China and Russia.


then.... interest rates will be raised again, restoring the value of
the US dollar in world markets. Investing in the mean time may be
problematical. Some high tech areas will pay off well. The best
investments will be in ones own operation, skill sets and networks.



imo

***

Support for this argument is my observation that the FED is willing to
loan 'money' to the banks at 1% or less, and the banks are willing to
loan at 4%... that tells you that those in charge have a solution for
hyper inflation.. and I believe my memo here describes that
solution...


if relatively few actual dollar bills are printed, paying the money
back will be difficult and the 4% intrest will provide the banks with
a real profit.



why:

(if the the treasury prints the actual bills, in excess of actual GDP,
then the banks will lose, and collapse...thats why this thing is being
done with credit to the banks... and not by putting dollar bills into
peoples hands).


These guys in charge of the money, as corrupt as they are, probably do
know what they are doing in this aspect at least...they need to save
their own asses as well as ours.

***

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.


this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...


I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)



Phil scott

So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"phil scott" wrote in message
...

However.... our US govt is NOT printing any money,...... it
is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may
indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest
rates so

On Jul 12, 9:53*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.
Sounds mostly nutty to me too. What's the difference of money is
printed or electronic?
It still spends. As for us social security recipients being dead, I'd
like to kick his butt

Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.


Can you pay your taxes with imaginary money?

TDD

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.


Can you pay your taxes with imaginary money?

TDD

Some would suggest that we have been doing that since the end
of the gold standard.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

I do agree with the OP. No matter what is done now the most it can do
is soften the blow. It will take 10 to 20 YEARS and our recovery will
be anemic at best.

Thanks to credit debt and our country not producingf much of anything.

In a world economy production moves to the lowest cost place.

China with so many people and no environmental safety OSHA etc etc

they will own us if they dont already.

Plus our country being dependent on others for energy is just plain
STUPID.

Feds should fund coal to gasoline plants nationwide immediately,

phil scott wrote:

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.


this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...


I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)


Maybe, but your premise is flawed.

There's plenty of credit, but the credit-worthy enterprises are not going
for it.

Nobody, but nobody, with a gram of sense would be trying to expand their
business with the uncertainty emanating from Washington. Health insurance,
cap-and-trade, tax increases, and turning terrorists loose in America are
all possibilities and anyone faced with these potential business-destroying
plans would be nuts to take such risks as building a new plant, hiring more
employees, or launching a new product.

Until these proposals are stamped out or get implemented so one can see the
consequences, expect continued shrinkage in the economy.

To paraphrase a famous mantra: "It's the uncertainty, stupid!"

I don't have the courage to try.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must
disagree
with your view of things.


Can you pay your taxes with imaginary money?

TDD

On Jul 12, 8:02*pm, phil scott wrote:
It is a fact that if a nation PRINTS trillions of dollars to solve its
financial problems, that hyper inflation and collapse will follow.

However.... our US govt is NOT *printing any money,...... it is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest rates so
people can afford to buy homes and build businesses etc... *little
actual money is being printed though.

all this is happening as deflation due to tough economic times takes
the hot air out of the housing and stock markets etc. * the collapsing
tax base will also force the bloat out of government... * * all if
tgus us a *good thing.

This deflation *will be painful and *could lead to total collapse....
unless enough trillions in added *credit are issued into the economy
through the banks to keep things afloat... floating on a massive sea
of *credit. * thats whats happening now...

*its all just barely floating on a massive sea of credit... but it is
doing this as the housing and stock market bubbles deflate. * thats a
good and a necessary thing... so far we are deflating these bubbles,
and our bloated state governments without total collapse.

With luck that will be continued.

***** * again, this sea of funny money ***is not actually money***
(just credit), no extra currency is printed for most of it...

the US Dollar may very well *regain its value, when the FED raises
interest rates again after these bubbles hit bottom... * that will be
tricky and it remains to be seen how that will be pulled off,
especially given the 300 trillion dollars or so in hot air derivitives
(insurance policies used to guarantee bad loans).

it may be that as the large insurers, such as AIG go broke, file
bankrupcy and defualt that a good percentage of this derivitive mess
will simply evaporate *(like so many trillions in the worlds pension
funds have already evaporated.)

*as the work force gets more *desperate, and half of the bloated govt
work force is laid off, and the rest got their bloated retirements cut
by 70% or so, and the social security recipients are unfortunately cut
back to starvation levels..... and we start manufacturing in the US
again...we will recover...... it will be a nasty next 15 to 20 years
(time span directly calculated from life expectancy tables)

all of that is necessary...and will happen on the current path if we
are lucky... depends on many things though, luck, oil prices, what we
do about nuclear energy, and what other nations do etc..

***

when that stabilizes, my guess in 10 or 20 years of tight times,
during which time the 80 million social security recipients will all
be deader than hell... restoriing the national economy... * *full
recovery will begin, that will take another 15 to 20 years... and we
have seen these time frames recently in China and Russia.

then.... interest rates will be raised again, restoring the value of
the US dollar in world markets. * Investing in the mean time may be
problematical. *Some high tech areas will pay off well. * The best
investments will be in ones own operation, skill sets and networks.

imo

***

Support for this argument is my observation that the FED is willing to
loan 'money' to the banks at 1% or less, and the banks are willing to
loan at 4%... that tells you that those in charge have a solution for
hyper inflation.. and I believe my memo here describes that
solution...

if relatively few *actual dollar bills are printed, paying the money
back will be difficult and the 4% intrest will provide the banks with
a real profit.

why:

(if the the treasury prints the actual bills, in excess of actual GDP,
then the banks will lose, and collapse...thats why this thing is being
done with credit to the banks... and not by putting dollar bills into
peoples hands).

These guys in charge of the money, as corrupt as they are, probably do
know what they are doing in this aspect at least...they need to save
their own asses as well as ours.

***

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. * * * actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) * *will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.

this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...

I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)

Phil scott

The problem is govt wont get smaller, the govt pensions/benefits will
remain intact even for new govt workers, and govt growth will continue
to outpace and tax the private sector economy. Example, my property
has declined in value 2006, 07 and 08 yet my actual property tax has
increased and has no way to go down to match the declining value.
Because the multipliers were also changed to ensure that govt still
gets their cut even on taxed property that is declining in value well
into the future. When gas prices increased, govt did not rush in to
lower the tax rate on gas, they just raked in more cash. Now that gas
prices are low and cars efficient, govt is looking to tax based on
miles instead of gallons. Govt will get its cut, no matter what the
economy does, because they can. I just wonder why they have left the
Internet economy largely tax-free within the US.

On Jul 12, 6:53*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.


err Norman. Im not giving advice... and no...thats not what I
said. and no norman, i an not
challenging you or anyone. I am posting my wold guess views on what
I think *imght be the govt
plan. and no Im not asserting that I am right.. in fact there is
no way I could be more than
slightly right over such a long time span.

and no norman I am not suggesting you run up your credit cards at 25%
per year interest or whatever...
then hope that 40 years down the road, after most of us and perhaps
yersef are all deader than hell...cash in
on the green bavks in yer matress.... but you can make such
assumptions if you want.


You can do better than that though im sure.



Phil scott



--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"phil scott" wrote in message

...

However.... our US govt is NOT *printing any money,...... it
is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may
indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest
rates so

On Jul 13, 4:52*am, Frank wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:53*pm, "Stormin wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

Sounds mostly nutty to me too. *What's the difference of money is
printed or electronic?

well.... you are surely correct... I oould be off base big time. Ive
been wrong plenty of times
before.

Ive just posted my views. No need to reiterate them. a person might
choose to notice that
credit can be shrunk back to zero with high interest rates, in effect
cutting the 'money' supply.... cash money
cant be shrunk in that way...you cannot 'un-print' it. that was
my observation.

I am not asserting anything beyond that... I am not asserting that I
am correct (especially since ive been wrong a lot
in my views over my life span, and particularly since I cant recall a
time when I or anyone else was exactly 100% correct in
all aspects)

this was just an observation... for anyone to consider if they
want. ..


It still spends. *As for us social security recipients being dead, I'd
like to kick his butt


I am a social security recipient... I am almost 70.. most of us that
age bracket will be deader than hell. many of us
shortly...and then we will not be cashing any more social security
checks, and that will bring viability back to the SS system.
all that is simply how it is.

and how it is.... is always relevant of course.


The maturinty and thoughfulness i see on this NG though is
impressive... you guys must be a
pleasure in person.



Phil scott

On Jul 13, 5:48*am, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
*The Daring Dufas wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.

Can you pay your taxes with imaginary money?

TDD

* *Some would suggest that we have been doing that since the end
of the gold standard.
yes, some would suggest that..but they would be missing the point that
they
worked hard for that money, those green backs..for them its *real
money.

for the fed issuing credit...well its not quite the same thing, and it
can be vaporized at will.

its a fine point, but probably the mode by which govt is going to try
and unscrew the
girlfriend here..... will it work? I think the entire mess is dicy
as hell.. there are countless other
factors besides just these money issues Ive raised.

(primary among them the changing demographics, the debilation that
takes place when anything ages...
say a flower for instance, has a life cycle, and it ages in a
particular pattern...same with produce, and week old hot dogs,..and
us old men... we all age...and we all follow a distinct pattern in
that aging... then we die out.

and that has been true with nations as well...although the land mass
seems to remainin in place. the nation just looses its
balls so to speak... for instance the British empire.... pooooooof.
but England is still there on its small island.

Rome is still with us as well...but the roman empire lasted only 300
years (a max0 260 is most comon.



Phil scott



--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

On Jul 13, 5:58*am, bob haller wrote:
I do agree with the OP. No matter what is done now the most it can do
is soften the blow. It will take 10 to 20 YEARS and our recovery will
be anemic at best.

Thanks to credit debt and our country not producingf much of anything.

In a world economy production moves to the lowest cost place.

China with so many people and no environmental safety OSHA etc etc

they will own us if they dont already.

Plus our country being dependent on others for energy is just plain
STUPID.

correct.


Feds should fund coal to gasoline plants nationwide immediately,


Coal to gas is an awfully lot smarter than burning coal directly..and
uses the coal,as it
precludes the necessity of sending 700b a year offshore to buy oil.


Nuclear energy will be the final solution however, as it does not
produce green house gases (which may or
may not be as big a problem as some claim). we also have more
energy reserves in natural gas in north america than
the middle east has in oil... thats already usable as car and truck
fuel.


Phil scott

On Jul 13, 6:01*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
phil scott wrote:

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. * * * actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) * *will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.

this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...

I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)

Maybe, but your premise is flawed.

There's plenty of credit, but the credit-worthy enterprises are not going
for it.

that is correct...and that is why you may very well be correct that
issuing credit
may not work in the end. My observation however is that is what
govt is up to.

I am not recommending nor condeming the approach... I do *think* that
it might
muddle us through however...'think' being the key word.. I can think
of 50 caveats
that could drive the mess in other directions as well.

I do think however that this e money tactic is the current attempt..



Nobody, but nobody, with a gram of sense would be trying to expand their
business with the uncertainty emanating from Washington.

we are certainly on the same page there.... however I do observe there
is no
shortage of idiots in the world, especially graduated from the Ivy
League schools... a brilliant lot, they
brought us all those 'financial products' you know.



Health insurance,
cap-and-trade, tax increases, and turning terrorists loose in America are
all possibilities and anyone faced with these potential business-destroying
plans would be nuts to take such risks as building a new plant, hiring more
employees, or launching a new product.

myself and those I work with are not shrinking our businesses, we are
definitely cutting
our overhead, fixed labor costs, and other expenses... myself
particularly operating with others
in what have been called 'virtual companies'... previous called joint
ventures. I no longer own a
shop or have a pay roll. but I do the same sorts of business
(industrial systems engrng and machinery
fabrication(.

I notice many hotel chains bulidnng new hotels though.... bless em..


Until these proposals are stamped out or get implemented so one can see the
consequences, expect continued shrinkage in the economy.


I dont disagree... esp for the USA, given our huge range of other
issues, such as 80 million now
reaching retirement and no way in hell to fund that. I share your
views on the cap in trade policy as well,

that does not translate however as some tend to do...that all liberal
policy is bad, and all other policy is right.
I think we have plenty of insanity and corruption to go around on
either side of the fence...polarized views tend
to blind a person to the insanity on his or her own side of the fence.




To paraphrase a famous mantra: "It's the uncertainty, stupid!"



Phil scott


- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 13, 6:20*am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:42:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas

wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?

After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.

Can you pay your taxes with imaginary money?

TDD

All money is imaginary.

working for a living is not imaginary however...the medium of exchange
employed, as it is used
ONLY in that context is not imaginary.. you are referring to the
extended spin put on the medium of
exchange by the non working class, banking and etc.

while the smear on these folks is warranted and gives a nice warm
fuzzy feeling... the fact of 'work related money'
that is what you must work for and spend to eat, makes *that money
'real'.

not to say of course that gold etc is not a bit more real.


more real than gold though, as is seen in times of famine, is good
ground next to a water supply and some seed.
that is unless you have a fondness for gold coin sandwiches.


the economy on a personal level boils down to the ability to produce
for others in a good economy, and the ability to
produce for yourself in dire times.... regardless the medium of
exchange and its perversions.


Phil scott

On Jul 13, 8:03*am, windcrest wrote:
On Jul 12, 8:02*pm, phil scott wrote:





It is a fact that if a nation PRINTS trillions of dollars to solve its
financial problems, that hyper inflation and collapse will follow.

However.... our US govt is NOT *printing any money,...... it is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest rates so
people can afford to buy homes and build businesses etc... *little
actual money is being printed though.

all this is happening as deflation due to tough economic times takes
the hot air out of the housing and stock markets etc. * the collapsing
tax base will also force the bloat out of government... * * all if
tgus us a *good thing.

This deflation *will be painful and *could lead to total collapse....
unless enough trillions in added *credit are issued into the economy
through the banks to keep things afloat... floating on a massive sea
of *credit. * thats whats happening now...

*its all just barely floating on a massive sea of credit... but it is
doing this as the housing and stock market bubbles deflate. * thats a
good and a necessary thing... so far we are deflating these bubbles,
and our bloated state governments without total collapse.

With luck that will be continued.

***** * again, this sea of funny money ***is not actually money***
(just credit), no extra currency is printed for most of it...

the US Dollar may very well *regain its value, when the FED raises
interest rates again after these bubbles hit bottom... * that will be
tricky and it remains to be seen how that will be pulled off,
especially given the 300 trillion dollars or so in hot air derivitives
(insurance policies used to guarantee bad loans).

it may be that as the large insurers, such as AIG go broke, file
bankrupcy and defualt that a good percentage of this derivitive mess
will simply evaporate *(like so many trillions in the worlds pension
funds have already evaporated.)

*as the work force gets more *desperate, and half of the bloated govt
work force is laid off, and the rest got their bloated retirements cut
by 70% or so, and the social security recipients are unfortunately cut
back to starvation levels..... and we start manufacturing in the US
again...we will recover...... it will be a nasty next 15 to 20 years
(time span directly calculated from life expectancy tables)

all of that is necessary...and will happen on the current path if we
are lucky... depends on many things though, luck, oil prices, what we
do about nuclear energy, and what other nations do etc..

***

when that stabilizes, my guess in 10 or 20 years of tight times,
during which time the 80 million social security recipients will all
be deader than hell... restoriing the national economy... * *full
recovery will begin, that will take another 15 to 20 years... and we
have seen these time frames recently in China and Russia.

then.... interest rates will be raised again, restoring the value of
the US dollar in world markets. * Investing in the mean time may be
problematical. *Some high tech areas will pay off well. * The best
investments will be in ones own operation, skill sets and networks.

imo

***

Support for this argument is my observation that the FED is willing to
loan 'money' to the banks at 1% or less, and the banks are willing to
loan at 4%... that tells you that those in charge have a solution for
hyper inflation.. and I believe my memo here describes that
solution...

if relatively few *actual dollar bills are printed, paying the money
back will be difficult and the 4% intrest will provide the banks with
a real profit.

why:

(if the the treasury prints the actual bills, in excess of actual GDP,
then the banks will lose, and collapse...thats why this thing is being
done with credit to the banks... and not by putting dollar bills into
peoples hands).

These guys in charge of the money, as corrupt as they are, probably do
know what they are doing in this aspect at least...they need to save
their own asses as well as ours.

***

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. * * * actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) * *will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.

this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...

I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)

Phil scott

The problem is govt wont get smaller, the govt pensions/benefits will
remain intact even for new govt workers, and govt growth will continue
to outpace and tax the private sector economy. *Example, my property
has declined in value 2006, 07 and 08 yet my actual property tax has
increased and has no way to go down to match the declining value.
Because the multipliers were also changed to ensure that govt still
gets their cut even on taxed property that is declining in value well
into the future. *When gas prices increased, govt did not rush in to
lower the tax rate on gas, they just raked in more cash. *Now that gas
prices are low and cars efficient, govt is looking to tax based on
miles instead of gallons. *Govt will get its cut, no matter what the
economy does, because they can. *I just wonder why they have left the
Internet economy largely tax-free within the US.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats all accurate... except that as such a mess continues it
collapses in on itself.
then of course govt goes from total over bloat to zero or worse. (a
260 year cycle..approx)



Phil scott

phil scott wrote:
On Jul 13, 4:52 am, Frank wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:53 pm, "Stormin wrote:
So, if I run my credit cards to the max, and keep some
greenbacks at home, I should be just fine?
After all, that's essentially what you said. I must disagree
with your view of things.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Sounds mostly nutty to me too. What's the difference of money is
printed or electronic?

well.... you are surely correct... I oould be off base big time. Ive
been wrong plenty of times
before.

Ive just posted my views. No need to reiterate them. a person might
choose to notice that
credit can be shrunk back to zero with high interest rates, in effect
cutting the 'money' supply.... cash money
cant be shrunk in that way...you cannot 'un-print' it. that was
my observation.

I am not asserting anything beyond that... I am not asserting that I
am correct (especially since ive been wrong a lot
in my views over my life span, and particularly since I cant recall a
time when I or anyone else was exactly 100% correct in
all aspects)

this was just an observation... for anyone to consider if they
want. ..


It still spends. As for us social security recipients being dead, I'd
like to kick his butt


I am a social security recipient... I am almost 70.. most of us that
age bracket will be deader than hell. many of us
shortly...and then we will not be cashing any more social security
checks, and that will bring viability back to the SS system.
all that is simply how it is.

and how it is.... is always relevant of course.


The maturinty and thoughfulness i see on this NG though is
impressive... you guys must be a
pleasure in person.



Phil scott


We are contemporaries. I was thinking of all the baby boomer's now
starting to cash in too. Not getting an SS increase this year because
there is said to be no inflation is ridiculous and one of Obama's ploys
to get us to pay for his follies.

I just hope the rampant inflation does not hit us all at once and I
don't see governments making the cutbacks they should be doing. This
year, on fixed income, I expect to pay an extra $500 in taxes.

Frank

phil scott wrote:

a person might
choose to notice that
credit can be shrunk back to zero with high interest rates, in effect
cutting the 'money' supply.... cash money
cant be shrunk in that way...you cannot 'un-print' it. that was
my observation.

You certainly can un-print money. I've been in the local Federal Reserve.
They've got a machine the size of a bus that shreds money. It is strange to
watch pallets of $100 bills disappearing. You want to say "Just let me take
this little stack right here. No one will notice." -- Doug

phil scott wrote:


Until these proposals are stamped out or get implemented so one can
see the consequences, expect continued shrinkage in the economy.


I dont disagree... esp for the USA, given our huge range of other
issues, such as 80 million now
reaching retirement and no way in hell to fund that. I share your
views on the cap in trade policy as well,

that does not translate however as some tend to do...that all liberal
policy is bad, and all other policy is right.
I think we have plenty of insanity and corruption to go around on
either side of the fence...polarized views tend
to blind a person to the insanity on his or her own side of the fence.

Everybody agrees on goals, we differ on methods. Liberals tend to provide
for the general welfare through the treasury, conservatives tend to promote
the general welfare through the economy. Liberals tend to multi-task, they
can solve a problem a minute (if everybody would just....). Conservatives
tend to be single-focused, working on one problem at a time (first, let's
kill all the terrorists...).

As Ben Stein recently said:

"When I think about the economy I think about a plump man who has just been
hit by a truck while crossing a street and is in severely critical condition
with internal bleeding. Instead of just stabilizing his hemorrhaging, the
doctor decides that while the patient is unconscious, he might as well also
do a face lift, some coronary bypasses and a stomach-stapling to keep him
from gaining weight while he is recovering (if he does recover). After all,
a crisis is not to be wasted.

"The problem is that all these ambitious operations create too much of a
burden for the human body to bear."

He goes on to discuss the various proposals being touted. For example, why
fark with the energy business? It's working. It's humming along without a
glitch. It's providing jobs and dependable, affordable energy to everybody
in the country - from electricity for your house to diesel for your farm
tractor to gasoline for your car. Why take the chance of screwing it up at
all, and especially why now?

windcrest wrote:

When gas prices increased, govt did not rush in to
lower the tax rate on gas, they just raked in more cash. Now that gas
prices are low and cars efficient, govt is looking to tax based on
miles instead of gallons. Govt will get its cut, no matter what the
economy does, because they can. I just wonder why they have left the
Internet economy largely tax-free within the US.

Actually, when gas prices increased, government revenue went down. Way down.
Because people started driving less.

You're correct about them trying new techniques, though. They even have
groups working on innovative new revenue streams. I heard rumors about one
new scheme recently, and, while details are still sketchy, it is thought to
involve blood. And stones.

So, you might for example. Say that President Obama wants
less government control over things? Less size of
government, and more freedom?

I do seriously believe that liberals and conservatives
differ widely in their goals.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Everybody agrees on goals, we differ on methods. Liberals
tend to provide
for the general welfare through the treasury, conservatives
tend to promote
the general welfare through the economy.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

So, you might for example. Say that President Obama wants
less government control over things? Less size of
government, and more freedom?

HUH? Obama wants the exact opposite.

I do seriously believe that liberals and conservatives
differ widely in their goals.


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Everybody agrees on goals, we differ on methods. Liberals
tend to provide
for the general welfare through the treasury, conservatives
tend to promote
the general welfare through the economy.


and people do far better under the conservatives.
(when conservatives actually ARE "conservative")

California is the prime example of socialism in the US.
THAT is what Obama wants for the entire US.
One big 3rd world country.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Stormin Mormon wrote:
So, you might for example. Say that President Obama wants
less government control over things? Less size of
government, and more freedom?

I do seriously believe that liberals and conservatives
differ widely in their goals.

You're right in one sense: conservatives generally want smaller government,
but only as a means to an end. Liberals usually want larger government, but
again, only as a means to an end. But there are exceptions to these general
rules.

As a conservative, I'm in favor of some branches of government getting
bigger.

The military, for example, so we can more efficiently kill our enemies,
potential enemies, and the families of either.

Conservatives also tend to favor more prisons.

As an aside, I see where the governors of several states are about to loose
several thousand prisoners because the state has budget troubles (Michigan,
Massachusetts, and California come to mind).

Say Michigan lets loose 20,000 prisoners before their time. Further, let's
assume that 5,000 of these are Heroin addicts (there are 20,000 Heroin
addicts in Detroit currently on the street). A Heroin addict will shoot one
"paper" (1 gram) of Heroin a day, on average, with a normal street price of
$100. Assuming these addicts are thieves of some stripe, they have to steal
at least $400 worth of stuff to get their $100 fix (hey, the fence has to
make a living).

So, then, 5000 addicts released x $400/day stolen x 365 days a year = $730
million per year drained out of the economy of Michigan. One can quibble
with the estimates - maybe only 1000 of the released prisoners are addicts
or maybe the street price has gone down to $75 - but the order of magnitude
should still be about right.

Sure, it costs* a quite a bit to keep these folks locked up, but it costs
society much more to turn them loose.

----------
* I think I saw where it costs Michigan $56/day to house an inmate. We, in
Texas, do if for about $23. How can we do it so cheaply? Did you ever see
the movie "Holes?" I think it was filmed at a Lone Star State institution...

"HeyBub" wrote:

Say Michigan lets loose 20,000 prisoners before their time. Further, let's
assume that 5,000 of these are Heroin addicts (there are 20,000 Heroin
addicts in Detroit currently on the street). A Heroin addict will shoot one
"paper" (1 gram) of Heroin a day, on average, with a normal street price of
$100. Assuming these addicts are thieves of some stripe, they have to steal
at least $400 worth of stuff to get their $100 fix (hey, the fence has to
make a living).

So, then, 5000 addicts released x $400/day stolen x 365 days a year = $730
million per year drained out of the economy of Michigan. One can quibble
with the estimates - maybe only 1000 of the released prisoners are addicts
or maybe the street price has gone down to $75 - but the order of magnitude
should still be about right.

Sure, it costs* a quite a bit to keep these folks locked up, but it costs
society much more to turn them loose.

And if we legalized heroin, it would cost $5 (with tax) a day. They won't have
to steal and we won't have to lock them up.

* I think I saw where it costs Michigan $56/day to house an inmate. We, in
Texas, do if for about $23. How can we do it so cheaply? Did you ever see
the movie "Holes?" I think it was filmed at a Lone Star State institution...

Apparently, there is only one air conditioned prison in Texas. A few more 100+
days and the prisoners will escape by melting and flowing under the door.

-- Doug

"phil scott" wrote in message
...
It is a fact that if a nation PRINTS trillions of dollars to solve its
financial problems, that hyper inflation and collapse will follow.


However.... our US govt is NOT printing any money,...... it is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest rates so
people can afford to buy homes and build businesses etc... little
actual money is being printed though.


all this is happening as deflation due to tough economic times takes
the hot air out of the housing and stock markets etc. the collapsing
tax base will also force the bloat out of government... all if
tgus us a good thing.


This deflation will be painful and *could lead to total collapse....
unless enough trillions in added *credit are issued into the economy
through the banks to keep things afloat... floating on a massive sea
of *credit. thats whats happening now...


its all just barely floating on a massive sea of credit... but it is
doing this as the housing and stock market bubbles deflate. thats a
good and a necessary thing... so far we are deflating these bubbles,
and our bloated state governments without total collapse.



With luck that will be continued.



***** again, this sea of funny money **is not actually money***
(just credit), no extra currency is printed for most of it...


the US Dollar may very well *regain its value, when the FED raises
interest rates again after these bubbles hit bottom... that will be
tricky and it remains to be seen how that will be pulled off,
especially given the 300 trillion dollars or so in hot air derivitives
(insurance policies used to guarantee bad loans).



it may be that as the large insurers, such as AIG go broke, file
bankrupcy and defualt that a good percentage of this derivitive mess
will simply evaporate (like so many trillions in the worlds pension
funds have already evaporated.)


as the work force gets more desperate, and half of the bloated govt
work force is laid off, and the rest got their bloated retirements cut
by 70% or so, and the social security recipients are unfortunately cut
back to starvation levels..... and we start manufacturing in the US
again...we will recover...... it will be a nasty next 15 to 20 years
(time span directly calculated from life expectancy tables)


all of that is necessary...and will happen on the current path if we
are lucky... depends on many things though, luck, oil prices, what we
do about nuclear energy, and what other nations do etc..

***

when that stabilizes, my guess in 10 or 20 years of tight times,
during which time the 80 million social security recipients will all
be deader than hell... restoriing the national economy... full
recovery will begin, that will take another 15 to 20 years... and we
have seen these time frames recently in China and Russia.


then.... interest rates will be raised again, restoring the value of
the US dollar in world markets. Investing in the mean time may be
problematical. Some high tech areas will pay off well. The best
investments will be in ones own operation, skill sets and networks.



imo

***

Support for this argument is my observation that the FED is willing to
loan 'money' to the banks at 1% or less, and the banks are willing to
loan at 4%... that tells you that those in charge have a solution for
hyper inflation.. and I believe my memo here describes that
solution...


if relatively few actual dollar bills are printed, paying the money
back will be difficult and the 4% intrest will provide the banks with
a real profit.



why:

(if the the treasury prints the actual bills, in excess of actual GDP,
then the banks will lose, and collapse...thats why this thing is being
done with credit to the banks... and not by putting dollar bills into
peoples hands).


These guys in charge of the money, as corrupt as they are, probably do
know what they are doing in this aspect at least...they need to save
their own asses as well as ours.

***

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.


this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...


I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)



Phil scott

Do you have anything to say about home repairs? No?

be gone, troll

plonk

Right! Obammy wants total socialism for the entire US.
Government control over everything. I'm glad you noticed
that Libs and Cons do not want the same things.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...

HUH? Obama wants the exact opposite.


"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in
:

So, you might for example. Say that President Obama wants
less government control over things? Less size of
government, and more freedom?


I do seriously believe that liberals and conservatives
differ widely in their goals.


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Everybody agrees on goals, we differ on methods.

Would faux conservatives be "CINO"?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jim Yanik" wrote in message
...

and people do far better under the conservatives.
(when conservatives actually ARE "conservative")

SteveB wrote:
"phil scott" wrote in message
...
It is a fact that if a nation PRINTS trillions of dollars to solve its
financial problems, that hyper inflation and collapse will follow.


However.... our US govt is NOT printing any money,...... it is
**issuing electronic credits***, that act as money, and may indeed
stimulate the economy....this is assisted by low interest rates so
people can afford to buy homes and build businesses etc... little
actual money is being printed though.


all this is happening as deflation due to tough economic times takes
the hot air out of the housing and stock markets etc. the collapsing
tax base will also force the bloat out of government... all if
tgus us a good thing.


This deflation will be painful and *could lead to total collapse....
unless enough trillions in added *credit are issued into the economy
through the banks to keep things afloat... floating on a massive sea
of *credit. thats whats happening now...


its all just barely floating on a massive sea of credit... but it is
doing this as the housing and stock market bubbles deflate. thats a
good and a necessary thing... so far we are deflating these bubbles,
and our bloated state governments without total collapse.



With luck that will be continued.



***** again, this sea of funny money **is not actually money***
(just credit), no extra currency is printed for most of it...


the US Dollar may very well *regain its value, when the FED raises
interest rates again after these bubbles hit bottom... that will be
tricky and it remains to be seen how that will be pulled off,
especially given the 300 trillion dollars or so in hot air derivitives
(insurance policies used to guarantee bad loans).



it may be that as the large insurers, such as AIG go broke, file
bankrupcy and defualt that a good percentage of this derivitive mess
will simply evaporate (like so many trillions in the worlds pension
funds have already evaporated.)


as the work force gets more desperate, and half of the bloated govt
work force is laid off, and the rest got their bloated retirements cut
by 70% or so, and the social security recipients are unfortunately cut
back to starvation levels..... and we start manufacturing in the US
again...we will recover...... it will be a nasty next 15 to 20 years
(time span directly calculated from life expectancy tables)


all of that is necessary...and will happen on the current path if we
are lucky... depends on many things though, luck, oil prices, what we
do about nuclear energy, and what other nations do etc..

***

when that stabilizes, my guess in 10 or 20 years of tight times,
during which time the 80 million social security recipients will all
be deader than hell... restoriing the national economy... full
recovery will begin, that will take another 15 to 20 years... and we
have seen these time frames recently in China and Russia.


then.... interest rates will be raised again, restoring the value of
the US dollar in world markets. Investing in the mean time may be
problematical. Some high tech areas will pay off well. The best
investments will be in ones own operation, skill sets and networks.



imo

***

Support for this argument is my observation that the FED is willing to
loan 'money' to the banks at 1% or less, and the banks are willing to
loan at 4%... that tells you that those in charge have a solution for
hyper inflation.. and I believe my memo here describes that
solution...


if relatively few actual dollar bills are printed, paying the money
back will be difficult and the 4% intrest will provide the banks with
a real profit.



why:

(if the the treasury prints the actual bills, in excess of actual GDP,
then the banks will lose, and collapse...thats why this thing is being
done with credit to the banks... and not by putting dollar bills into
peoples hands).


These guys in charge of the money, as corrupt as they are, probably do
know what they are doing in this aspect at least...they need to save
their own asses as well as ours.

***

Predictions:

a lot of folks will go broke in the financual turmoil...especially
retailers and people with high overhead and into non essential
businesses. actual producers of goods, and essential services
with *low overhead will mostly survive imo.

actual producers who extend too much credit to those about to go
under, (that is about half the Malls and stores in the US) will get
burnt...due to tight money, that will put many contractors etc out of
business as we are already seeing.


this is of course avoidable by structuring for low overhead
operations...getting a sufficient advance on jobs and progress
payments in advance of progress...


I think those contractors will survive ... (this was a memo to one of
my contr clients)



Phil scott

Do you have anything to say about home repairs? No?

be gone, troll

plonk


Actually if BO's new energy bill goes through, it will have a lot to do
with home repair because homeowners must comply with it.

G. Morgan wrote:


Interesting logic, but they are not the only two options.

The best possible outcome for everyone (the addict, society, and law
enforcement (LE)) is to rehabilitate the addict.

Another alternative is to put addicts in charge of unicorns.

Back when I took my Advanced Narcotics class from the BNDD, our instructor
put forth the following statistic: If you define "cured of addiction" as
staying drug free for one year after release, the BEST "cure" rate for
federal drug treatment facilities was six percent.



I know their are perceived differences in how "liberals" and
"conservatives" each may handle the problem.

For instance, a typical conservative has strong Christian ties and
may believe that a "faith based" rehabilitation works best, and
discourage public funding for drug rehab. Conservatives are more
likely to have the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" attitude
towards addicts, considering them more criminals than people with a
medical disease.

A liberal is more likely to increase State and Federal funds for
building more traditional style rehab facilities, and improve
existing ones. A liberal is more likely to see the addict as a
person with a genuine medical problem, and not a scourge on society.

Agreed, but Typhoid Mary was BOTH a medical case and a scourge on society.



But since your post was about money, not what's best for the addict,
let's run some more numbers.

Let's say it costs Michigan $35,000 /year to house a prisoner. If
there are 5,000 heroin addicts in prison that's $175 million/yr.

If the average prison sentence is 4 years then total cost to the
government is: 4years x 5000 prisoners x $35,000 = $700 MILLION

And at the end of the 4 years you have an ex-felon who no one will
hire, has no skills, is understandably ****ed in the head mentally
due to the terrible conditions, and IS STILL A DRUG ADDICT. He will
steal again.

Agreed, but the cost to society for the drug addict to remain on the loose
is:

5000 addicts x $400/day in thefts x 365 days/year x 4 years = $2.9 billion



----

Rehab Estimates:
$10,000 for a 60 day inpatient rehab stay.
$10,000 /year for outpatient follow-up care + halfway house
$15,000 for job training (trade school, college certificate programs)
------------
= $35,000 cost per year of A+ rehab.

Let's say only half of them make it through rehab and become
productive citizens.

2,500 still in prison = $350 Million over 4 years
2,500 in rehab for 1 year = $87.5 Million over 1 year

So that's $700M - $350M - $87.5M = $262.5M savings per 4/yr. =

$65.625M /year total savings to the taxpayer

PLUS:

You get to keep your car stereo and xBox more often.

-----

"Let's say only half of them make it...."

Dream on!
"The proportion of drug users who successfully completed drug addiction
treatment decreased from 5.8 percent in 1998 to 3.5 percent in 2002."
http://alcoholism.about.com/b/2006/0...rates-drop.htm

Other refrences I found on success rates were self-serving testimonials from
drug treatment centers.

Rather than take a chance on 50% becoming productive citizens (or merely
5%), wouldn't it be better to keep the whole 5,000 locked up for another
year?

obama is trying to do what voters elected him for...........

some sort of national health care for everyone

to fix the busted economy

to make us less war like and more a member of the world community,
rather than a dictator........

its a big job, and cant be done instantly

I didn't think the economy was busted. Taxes too high,
that's the problem.

I don't want national health care like Canada (why do you
think they come here for medical care? Cause socialism is so
wonderful?) or England, the land of green teeth.

I would rather be feared than loved.

He's doing his best to do it instantly. Look at his first
100 days.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"bob haller" wrote in message
...
obama is trying to do what voters elected him for...........

some sort of national health care for everyone

to fix the busted economy

to make us less war like and more a member of the world
community,
rather than a dictator........

its a big job, and cant be done instantly

In article ,
G. Morgan wrote:


Rehab Estimates:
$10,000 for a 60 day inpatient rehab stay.
$10,000 /year for outpatient follow-up care + halfway house
$15,000 for job training (trade school, college certificate programs)
------------
= $35,000 cost per year of A+ rehab.

Let's say only half of them make it through rehab and become productive
citizens.

I have yet to see ANY program go above 25% and those are few, far
between and seldom replicated.


2,500 still in prison = $350 Million over 4 years
2,500 in rehab for 1 year = $87.5 Million over 1 year

So that's $700M - $350M - $87.5M = $262.5M savings per 4/yr. =

$65.625M /year total savings to the taxpayer


Of course the person is still an ex-con with lousy job prospects.

--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
Jimmy Buffett

Frank wrote in
:

SteveB wrote:

Do you have anything to say about home repairs? No?

be gone, troll

plonk


Actually if BO's new energy bill goes through, it will have a lot to
do with home repair because homeowners must comply with it.


Yes,you will not be able to sell your house if it doesn't comply with the
new laws.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:


Yes,you will not be able to sell your house if it doesn't comply with the
new laws.

Do you have a citation for this?
Thanks,
Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:


Yes,you will not be able to sell your house if it doesn't comply
with the new laws.

Do you have a citation for this?
Thanks,
Doug

We dug it out once a couple of weeks ago (it's tough to find in a 1,400 page
bill)

It's in the House version of the Cap-and-Trade bill, though not as onerous
as it sounds. It originally applied to sales of ALL homes but was modified
to apply only to NEW construction. It includes the gamut of things down to
water heater insulation.

Still, it's the beginning of a federal standard of energy efficiency and
it's only a small additional step to impose it on the sale of existing
homes.

Wow, the Fed Monster is out of its cage! That's not in the
Constititon, that I can remember.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
...

We dug it out once a couple of weeks ago (it's tough to find
in a 1,400 page
bill)

It's in the House version of the Cap-and-Trade bill, though
not as onerous
as it sounds. It originally applied to sales of ALL homes
but was modified
to apply only to NEW construction. It includes the gamut of
things down to
water heater insulation.

Still, it's the beginning of a federal standard of energy
efficiency and
it's only a small additional step to impose it on the sale
of existing
homes.

On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:38:46 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Wow, the Fed Monster is out of its cage! That's not in the
Constititon, that I can remember.

What I understand is I can have Contract, under the Constitution.

Cape-and-trade would prohibit that, OR at least fail to acknowledge my
RIGHT to do so.

Somebody needs to worry about TelePrompTer falling/failing and
crashing.

On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:46:28 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

.."If your home doesn't meet the national building code, you'll have
to bring it up to code. Inspectors will determine if your property is
in compliance."

A search of bill shows nothing that I interpret that way.

I've been checking, as I'm on a pension and a fixed income.

"Eric Martell writes:

Among other provisions that control nearly every aspect of our lives,
the Waxman-Markley energy bill has a requirement that forces the
entire United States to use a National Building Code based on the
green building standards of California. Regardless of whether your
house is in Miami, Florida or Bangor, Maine, you'll have to adhere to
the standards used in a state that has one of the most moderate
climates in the U.S. The construction industry is really going to
suffer."

I really don't know anybody in DC that speaks the truth.

Things in Las Vegas will not work in Two Egg, Florida.

A National Building Code? Does the bill say that?

"HeyBub" wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:


Yes,you will not be able to sell your house if it doesn't comply
with the new laws.

Do you have a citation for this?
Thanks,
Doug

We dug it out once a couple of weeks ago (it's tough to find in a 1,400 page
bill)

Actually, it's pretty easy. Right in the table of contents:

"SEC. 304. GREATER ENERGY EFFICIENCY IN BUILDING CODES."

It's in the House version of the Cap-and-Trade bill, though not as onerous
as it sounds. It originally applied to sales of ALL homes but was modified
to apply only to NEW construction. It includes the gamut of things down to
water heater insulation.

The section does not address water heater insulation or any other specific
practice at all. It requires the establishment of national energy building
codes that meet certain energy reduction targets by certain dates. It doesn't
say how.

I looked at the text of both the first-introduced bill and the one passed and
sent to the Senate. Section 304 does not seem to differ significantly between
the two.

Still, it's the beginning of a federal standard of energy efficiency and
it's only a small additional step to impose it on the sale of existing
homes.

It would be a HUGE step. There is a reason building codes apply to new
construction and old houses are grand fathered in. It is not economically
feasible to upgrade even a reasonably new (say 10 years old) to current code. My
60 year old barn would need new windows, roof structure, foundations,
electrical, plumbing, insulation in the walls... The foundations alone would
make it cheaper to tear down and rebuild.

We would have to tear down most of the nation's housing stock. Now that's a
stimulus package!

-- Doug
-- Doug

Oren wrote:


I've been checking, as I'm on a pension and a fixed income.

Check with primary sources, such as the bill itself. I'm convinced these
bloggers have never seen it.

"Eric Martell writes:

Among other provisions that control nearly every aspect of our lives,
the Waxman-Markley energy bill has a requirement that forces the
entire United States to use a National Building Code based on the
green building standards of California. Regardless of whether your
house is in Miami, Florida or Bangor, Maine, you'll have to adhere to
the standards used in a state that has one of the most moderate
climates in the U.S. The construction industry is really going to
suffer."

He's wrong. Or at least he is seriously mis-interpreting the bill.


Things in Las Vegas will not work in Two Egg, Florida.

Sure won't. But the bill does not require anything like that.

A National Building Code? Does the bill say that?

The bill requires the development of a national energy building code that sets
standards for saving energy relative to the current international building code,
not California.

-- Doug