After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

On Jul 1, 10:22*pm, WhiteTea77581 wrote:
After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

Try Sanyo Eneloop NiMh they hold a usable charge for maybe a year

On 7/1/2009 8:22 PM WhiteTea77581 spake thus:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

WhiteTea77581 | 2009-07-01 | 10:22:35 PM wrote:

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Look for NiMh batteries with the word "hybrid" on the package. The
hybrid batteries have a much slower self-discharge rate. My standard
batteries will go dead within a day or two after charging. The hybrids
are _advertised_ to stay charged for up to a year. YMMV

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 7/1/2009 8:22 PM WhiteTea77581 spake thus:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm


Thank You!

Lou - who happened by

On Jul 1, 11:46*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 7/1/2009 8:22 PMWhiteTea77581spake thus:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries:http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Thanks, the site is very informative.

Andy

On Jul 1, 10:38*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jul 1, wrote:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

Try Sanyo Eneloop NiMh they hold a usable charge for maybe a year

Thanks.

Those batteries are not all that much more expensive and I like that
it can be charged up to a 1000 times.

Andy

On Jul 2, 6:41*am, WhiteTea77581 wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:38*pm, ransley wrote:

On Jul 1, wrote:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh..

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

Try Sanyo Eneloop NiMh they hold a usable charge for maybe a year

Thanks.

Those batteries are not all that much more expensive and I like that
it can be charged up to a 1000 times.

Andy

My old nimh I was getting 5 shots, my Eneloops ive recharged 3 times
in one year and get maybe 100 shots. Sanyo Energiser, Duracell,
Panasonic are known commercial brands, stay away from brands not
established they may be selling seconds of the main producers and poor
products. Also you need a charger for specificaly Nimh to get them to
100% charge, My cheap sony is a nimh charger that also does nicad, but
NiMh is its design, many say dual purpose but are designed for Nicads
profile, the profile is different to peak them to 100%.

WhiteTea77581 wrote:
On Jul 1, 11:46 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
....
Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries:http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm
....
Thanks, the site is very informative.
....
Yeah, it is but it surely could use a good technical editor/editing.
The non sequiturs (the Egyptians weren't "prehistoric", there's actually
quite a bit of their history albeit not complete) and other odd
constructions/phrasings and the occasional units problem (at least one
case of "current" of "1C or 2C" as only one example), etc., really
detract from the overall document.

But, it does have quite a lot of basic info in a concise form for
general information...

--

On 7/3/2009 9:28 AM dpb spake thus:

WhiteTea77581 wrote:

On Jul 1, 11:46 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries:http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm
...
Thanks, the site is very informative.
...
Yeah, it is but it surely could use a good technical editor/editing.
The non sequiturs (the Egyptians weren't "prehistoric", there's actually
quite a bit of their history albeit not complete) and other odd
constructions/phrasings and the occasional units problem (at least one
case of "current" of "1C or 2C" as only one example), etc., really
detract from the overall document.

I agree with you, being an (out-of-work) copy editor myself. Many small
annoyances there.

Regarding the 1C, 2C, etc., I take the "C" in those cases to represent
the current capacity of the particular battery, no?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 7/3/2009 9:28 AM dpb spake thus:

WhiteTea77581 wrote:

On Jul 1, 11:46 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
Read the following for everything you could ever want to know about
batteries:http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm
...
Thanks, the site is very informative.
...
Yeah, it is but it surely could use a good technical editor/editing.
The non sequiturs (the Egyptians weren't "prehistoric", there's
actually quite a bit of their history albeit not complete) and other
odd constructions/phrasings and the occasional units problem (at least
one case of "current" of "1C or 2C" as only one example), etc., really
detract from the overall document.

I agree with you, being an (out-of-work) copy editor myself. Many small
annoyances there.

Regarding the 1C, 2C, etc., I take the "C" in those cases to represent
the current capacity of the particular battery, no?

It wasn't perfectly clear, actually, in the particular place I noted, at
least w/o more in-depth reading, just what actually was the intent.

"Current" should, of course, be in A, while "C" is coulombs, or charge.
(And, if one's forgotten, 1A -- 1C/sec).

It wasn't entirely obvious to me while simply scanning whether he was
intending to mean a limiting total charge storage capacity because of an
energy storage limit (which would be units of C, but not a current) or a
limiting rate of discharge (which would be current, but not units of C).

--

My two cents after owning three dozen nimh batteries, and taking about
10,000 pictures with them.

The charger is the most important thing. Refresh batteries occasionally,
which drains them flat and then recharges them. After a refresh, let them
sit for two days, and discard any that are not fully charged. Yes, there
are better ones than others. Sanyo Eneloops are supposed to be good. But I
have a set of 15 minute recharge Ray-O-Vacs that I have had for about two
years now, and they are still going strong.

Two things drain power very fast on my Sony DSCH1 ........ using the LCD
instead of the viewfinder, and using the flash.

I take pictures of real estate developments, some as large as 1200 acres. I
may take 500 pictures in a day on a job. Batteries are important, and
having a ritual and becoming almost anal about having them charged and in
good working order will come back in spades when you don't have to stop and
go buy some cheap alkalines to finish. Or the deer aren't there when you
come back. Or you just miss that one in a lifetime shot.

Which reminds me, I'm going to buy three of four four packs the next trip to
WallyWorld.

Steve

On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:36:25 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

My two cents after owning three dozen nimh batteries, and taking about
10,000 pictures with them.

We're in about the same ballpark. I got introduced to NiMH batteries
when I bought a Nikon CP950. It would eat 4 duracell aa's in about
45 minutes using flash, LCD & constant focus.


The charger is the most important thing.

Yep-- I swear by my MAHA chargers. I've had 3 in 10[?] years- one got
stepped on- 2 are good. They run off AC or plug into a 12v DC
socket. I leave 2 sets in the chargers so I always have a hot set
of batteries. I've gone months without touching a set and they have
been fine. [ think the charge time is 4 hours or so for a dead 2000ma
battery]

I bought my first set [of 600ma] batteries from
http://thomasdistributing.com/ many years ago. The business has
since changed hands, but the service and value/$ is still great.

This is the charger I use-
http://thomasdistributing.com/mhc401...ernational.php

Jim

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:36:25 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

My two cents after owning three dozen nimh batteries, and taking about
10,000 pictures with them.

We're in about the same ballpark. I got introduced to NiMH batteries
when I bought a Nikon CP950. It would eat 4 duracell aa's in about
45 minutes using flash, LCD & constant focus.

The charger is the most important thing.

Yep-- I swear by my MAHA chargers. I've had 3 in 10[?] years- one got
stepped on- 2 are good. They run off AC or plug into a 12v DC
socket. I leave 2 sets in the chargers so I always have a hot set
of batteries. I've gone months without touching a set and they have
been fine. [ think the charge time is 4 hours or so for a dead 2000ma
battery]

I bought my first set [of 600ma] batteries from
http://thomasdistributing.com/ many years ago. The business has
since changed hands, but the service and value/$ is still great.

This is the charger I use-
http://thomasdistributing.com/mhc401...ernational.php

Jim
Thanks for some good info

"SteveB" wrote in
news
My two cents after owning three dozen nimh batteries, and taking about
10,000 pictures with them.

The charger is the most important thing. Refresh batteries
occasionally, which drains them flat and then recharges them. After a
refresh, let them sit for two days, and discard any that are not fully
charged.

kinda ignores the inherent self-discharge rates of both types.
IIRC,around 5% per day.

Yes, there are better ones than others. Sanyo Eneloops are
supposed to be good. But I have a set of 15 minute recharge
Ray-O-Vacs that I have had for about two years now, and they are still
going strong.

Two things drain power very fast on my Sony DSCH1 ........ using the
LCD instead of the viewfinder, and using the flash.

I take pictures of real estate developments, some as large as 1200
acres. I may take 500 pictures in a day on a job. Batteries are
important, and having a ritual and becoming almost anal about having
them charged and in good working order will come back in spades when
you don't have to stop and go buy some cheap alkalines to finish. Or
the deer aren't there when you come back. Or you just miss that one
in a lifetime shot.

Which reminds me, I'm going to buy three of four four packs the next
trip to WallyWorld.

Steve





two things I've observed(both at home and work) in using rechargables;

1. fast chargers(1 hr or less) are better for battery life than trickle
chargers.

2. "use them or lose them";rechargables used often live longer than ones
used intermittently.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT), WhiteTea77581
wrote:

After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

My two cents. I've been using NIMH batteries for years. With the
introduction of inexpensive low self discharge NIMH batteries there
really is no drawback to using them. These batteries are the Sanyo
Eneloops, or any other brand termed to be hybrid.

As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

On Jul 4, 9:15*am, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT), WhiteTea77581

wrote:
After reading the discussion about battery packs I had a question.

I am looking for feedback on battery life of the NiCD versus the NiMh.

I use NiMh batteries in my camera flash and find that they have more
power but don't keep a charge very long.

Andy

My two cents. I've been using NIMH batteries for years. With the
introduction of inexpensive low self discharge NIMH batteries there
really is no drawback to using them. These batteries are the Sanyo
Eneloops, or any other brand termed to be hybrid.

As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile

As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile

The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

wrote in message
...

As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile

The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

So, if I understand you correctly, the battery is charged a couple of hours
a day every day? If that is what you are saying, the amount of charging FAR
exceeds the daily or even weekly natural loss of the battery. Sounds a
little overkill to me, but if it works for you .......

Steve

SteveB wrote:
wrote in message
...
As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.
The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile
The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

So, if I understand you correctly, the battery is charged a couple of hours
a day every day? If that is what you are saying, the amount of charging FAR
exceeds the daily or even weekly natural loss of the battery. Sounds a
little overkill to me, but if it works for you .......

Steve


Some manufacturers warn that slow charging will damage NimH by
overcharging. I've read that slow charging will damage NiMH in a way
that increases the self-discharge. I've never slow-discharged NiMH, but
that drawback seems to apply to the NiCds I've had.

I bought a lot of AA NiCds between 1981 and 1998. Self-discharge
limited their service life. Perhaps after a year a cell would hold a
charge only a week. Eventually the plates would short and it wouldn't
take a charge at all.

In 1998 I bought a fast charger and two sets of 4 NiMH; one set didn't
even have a brand. For nine years I used them heavily for a camera, a
4-cell light, a walkman, a CD player, a cordless mouse, a cordless
keyboard, a 2-cell flashlight, and other uses.

I don't recharge them often these days because my heavy users (primary
flashlight, camera, mouse, and walkman) no longer use these batteries.
Those old NiMH cells still hold their charge several months in my
keyboard, in my standby flashlight, or on the shelf. What's more, I
discovered that when I quit slow charging my NiCds, their service life
was much longer.

When nickel batteries sit in storage, part of the plate can dry out.
That may be why the OP has problems. Charge/discharge cycles can remedy
it. Some are not properly formed when manufactured. They may gradually
improve over dozens of charge/discharge cycles.

On Jul 4, 9:32*am, wrote:
As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile

The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

For my RC cars and a dumb charger I used to measure voltage, when it
dropped the slightest amount they were charged, that is also when they
get warm, but temp is hard to monitor when batteries are in a charger
that produces heat itself. The best chargers would have to measure
voltage and compute when peaking occurs by voltage drop, the temp
method I dont trust. My sony cameras came with good inexpensive
chargers for NimH

ransley wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:32 am, wrote:
As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.
The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile
The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

For my RC cars and a dumb charger I used to measure voltage, when it
dropped the slightest amount they were charged, that is also when they
get warm, but temp is hard to monitor when batteries are in a charger
that produces heat itself. The best chargers would have to measure
voltage and compute when peaking occurs by voltage drop, the temp
method I dont trust. My sony cameras came with good inexpensive
chargers for NimH


Both my NiMH chargers monitor for the voltage change. I don't think
it's foolproof. Occasionally over the years when charging seemed to
take too long, my cells felt too hot. If I were charging manually, I
would scan the pack with an infrared thermometer. That should show when
the temperature of a cell rose.

On Jul 4, 9:09*pm, E Z Peaces wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:32 am, wrote:
As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.
The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile
The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

For my RC cars and a dumb charger I used to measure voltage, when it
dropped the slightest amount they were charged, that is also when they
get warm, but temp is hard to monitor when batteries are in a charger
that produces heat itself. The best chargers would have to measure
voltage and compute when peaking occurs by voltage drop, the temp
method I dont trust. My sony cameras came with good inexpensive
chargers for NimH

Both my NiMH chargers monitor for the voltage change. *I don't think
it's foolproof. *Occasionally over the years when charging seemed to
take too long, my cells felt too hot. *If I were charging manually, I
would scan the pack with an infrared thermometer. *That should show when
the temperature of a cell rose.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mine get warm but its the charger itself thats warm also, in RC packs
the pack is outside the charger so the chargers heat cant affect them.
You could attatch leads of a V meter, I place the thin probe in as im
placing the AA cell in my cheap sony charger, then you can monitor
when voltage peaks and starts to drop a few hundreths of a volt, as it
peaks the battery heats , thats when charging is 100%. The method is
accurate but how accurate is any charger, there are defects made all
the time.

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:32:38 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.

The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile

The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.

So, if I understand you correctly, the battery is charged a couple of hours
a day every day? If that is what you are saying, the amount of charging FAR
exceeds the daily or even weekly natural loss of the battery. Sounds a
little overkill to me, but if it works for you .......

Steve

It works for me, and it will work for anyone else because.........it's
a very slow charge. Normally these dumb slow chargers will take 16
hours to charge a battery. When hooked up to a timer it will take 8
days to charge. Once fully charged the battery can stay connected to
the charging system because no possible damage to the battery can
occur when hooked to such a slow charge for only two hours a day.

Some manufacturers warn that slow charging will damage NimH by
overcharging.

If left hooked up permanently as most people do then yes, any charger
can harm the battery.


I've read that slow charging will damage NiMH in a way
that increases the self-discharge. I've never slow-discharged NiMH, but
that drawback seems to apply to the NiCds I've had.

Slow charging a battery until it's charged is preferred over a fast
charging a battery until it's charged. The heat generated by fast
charging degrades the battery over time when compared to slow
charging.

wrote in message
...

Some manufacturers warn that slow charging will damage NimH by
overcharging.

If left hooked up permanently as most people do then yes, any charger
can harm the battery.

vs: if it's hooked up to a charger and left for days, but only turned on and
off for eight hours a day?

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:23:00 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Some manufacturers warn that slow charging will damage NimH by
overcharging.

If left hooked up permanently as most people do then yes, any charger
can harm the battery.

vs: if it's hooked up to a charger and left for days, but only turned on and
off for eight hours a day?

No. Specifically 1.4 volts at 130ma X 2 hours a day = 8 days to charge

At maximum( it will be much, much less) 2/10ths of a watt of heat
can be generated. A battery hooked to this for two hours can easily
dissipate any heat or withstand any other devastation that such a puny
charge system can throw at it.

ransley wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:09 pm, E Z Peaces wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Jul 4, 9:32 am, wrote:
As far as chargers go......Buy the cheapest, slowest dumb
charger/chargers you can and plug them into the cheapest
electrical timer you can find. Set the timer for a couple hours
a day and you'll always have a fresh set of batteries, you'll
never have to worry about overcharging, and you'll have
more money in your pocket for other toys.
The cheapest charger may only get Nimh near 90% charged if its a Nicad
profile
The cheapest slowest dumb chargers can easily overcharge a NIMH
battery. That is why they are dumb. By using the timer set for just a
couple hours a day you nullify any damage caused by overcharging.
For my RC cars and a dumb charger I used to measure voltage, when it
dropped the slightest amount they were charged, that is also when they
get warm, but temp is hard to monitor when batteries are in a charger
that produces heat itself. The best chargers would have to measure
voltage and compute when peaking occurs by voltage drop, the temp
method I dont trust. My sony cameras came with good inexpensive
chargers for NimH
Both my NiMH chargers monitor for the voltage change. I don't think
it's foolproof. Occasionally over the years when charging seemed to
take too long, my cells felt too hot. If I were charging manually, I
would scan the pack with an infrared thermometer. That should show when
the temperature of a cell rose.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mine get warm but its the charger itself thats warm also, in RC packs
the pack is outside the charger so the chargers heat cant affect them.
You could attatch leads of a V meter, I place the thin probe in as im
placing the AA cell in my cheap sony charger, then you can monitor
when voltage peaks and starts to drop a few hundreths of a volt, as it
peaks the battery heats , thats when charging is 100%. The method is
accurate but how accurate is any charger, there are defects made all
the time.

When my charger stays on much longer than usual and the cells are hot, I
remove them, wait a minute, and reinsert them. Within a minute, the
charger will shut off. To me, that's evidence that the cells were
charged but the voltage drop was not detected.

I believe bubbles can form in nickel batteries during charging. I think
they can sometimes keep the charger from seeing a voltage drop at the
end of a charge. Touching to see if a cell is hot is how I detect a
problem. In the future, I'll look for a charger that monitors temperature.

wrote:
Some manufacturers warn that slow charging will damage NimH by
overcharging.

If left hooked up permanently as most people do then yes, any charger
can harm the battery.


I've read that slow charging will damage NiMH in a way
that increases the self-discharge. I've never slow-discharged NiMH, but
that drawback seems to apply to the NiCds I've had.

Slow discharged? I meant I've never slow charged NiMH!

Slow charging a battery until it's charged is preferred over a fast
charging a battery until it's charged. The heat generated by fast
charging degrades the battery over time when compared to slow
charging.

I felt that way until 1987, when I got a cordless drill with a C/2
charger. I thought that would be harmful to the cells, so I built a
regulator and set it to 1.4V per cell.

In a couple of months, two cells had severe self-discharge and the other
three had greatly reduced capacity. During slow charges of nickel
cells, salts accumulate on the plates. These salts can both reduce
available plate area and serve as conductors for electrical leakage
between plates.

Panasonic explains it in their tech manual for their NiMH batteries.

Nowadays there are chargers that will slow charge nickel batteries
without causing salt buildup. These chargers use pulses, like the
modern chargers designed to be left connected to lead-acid batteries.

Panasonic explains it in their tech manual for their NiMH batteries.

Nowadays there are chargers that will slow charge nickel batteries
without causing salt buildup. These chargers use pulses, like the
modern chargers designed to be left connected to lead-acid batteries.

How can Panasonic explain NIMH batteries when your "Nowadays"
explanation is talking about lead acid batteries? Please site the info
that says NIHM shouldn't be charged on slow chargers that are also
on slow timers. For your convenience here is the start page.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...m/chem/nicmet/

wrote:
Panasonic explains it in their tech manual for their NiMH batteries.

Nowadays there are chargers that will slow charge nickel batteries
without causing salt buildup. These chargers use pulses, like the
modern chargers designed to be left connected to lead-acid batteries.

How can Panasonic explain NIMH batteries when your "Nowadays"
explanation is talking about lead acid batteries? Please site the info
that says NIHM shouldn't be charged on slow chargers that are also
on slow timers. For your convenience here is the start page.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...m/chem/nicmet/

Read it again. I said modern chargers for both types of batteries use
pulses instead of trickles.

If you had bothered to look at the page you recommend, you would see
that Panasonic says overcharging, even with a trickle charge, will
damage NiMH batteries.

If you buy a cheap charger, don't even check the current, and run it 2
hours a day, how can you possibly expect not to overcharge? The page
you recommend says a maintenance charger must monitor the voltage of the
standby battery. When it self-discharges to a certain point, the
charger must come on just long enough to charge it.

I didn't buy hybrid or low-self-discharge batteries. I bought the
ordinary NiMH cells available 11 years ago, and they still hold a charge
for months. I credit the good results to the use of automatic fast
chargers designed for NiMH.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:27:00 -0400, E Z Peaces
wrote:

wrote:
Panasonic explains it in their tech manual for their NiMH batteries.

Nowadays there are chargers that will slow charge nickel batteries
without causing salt buildup. These chargers use pulses, like the
modern chargers designed to be left connected to lead-acid batteries.

How can Panasonic explain NIMH batteries when your "Nowadays"
explanation is talking about lead acid batteries? Please site the info
that says NIHM shouldn't be charged on slow chargers that are also
on slow timers. For your convenience here is the start page.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...m/chem/nicmet/

Read it again. I said modern chargers for both types of batteries use
pulses instead of trickles.

If you had bothered to look at the page you recommend, you would see
that Panasonic says overcharging, even with a trickle charge, will
damage NiMH batteries.

Are you trying to skew what I am saying by leaving out a time
constraint on charging????

Then suggest trickle charging with a time limit. So do I.

If you buy a cheap charger, don't even check the current, and run it 2
hours a day, how can you possibly expect not to overcharge?

Because the charger is intentionally so weak that it can't harm the
battery in two hours no matter what the state of charge.

The page
you recommend says a maintenance charger must monitor the voltage of the
standby battery.

A maintenance charge higher in current than what I am talking about
without a mechanical timer yes, but by using a charger small enough
you can simply time it.

When it self-discharges to a certain point, the
charger must come on just long enough to charge it.

If you want to use this type of charger, yes.


I didn't buy hybrid or low-self-discharge batteries. I bought the
ordinary NiMH cells available 11 years ago, and they still hold a charge
for months.

Define months. Non hybrids won't hold a full charge this long without
some sort of maintenance charge.

I credit the good results to the use of automatic fast
chargers designed for NiMH.

So others success stories must be attributed to "automatic fast
chargers designed for NiMH"

wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:27:00 -0400, E Z Peaces
wrote:

wrote:
Panasonic explains it in their tech manual for their NiMH batteries.

Nowadays there are chargers that will slow charge nickel batteries
without causing salt buildup. These chargers use pulses, like the
modern chargers designed to be left connected to lead-acid batteries.
How can Panasonic explain NIMH batteries when your "Nowadays"
explanation is talking about lead acid batteries? Please site the info
that says NIHM shouldn't be charged on slow chargers that are also
on slow timers. For your convenience here is the start page.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/...m/chem/nicmet/
Read it again. I said modern chargers for both types of batteries use
pulses instead of trickles.

If you had bothered to look at the page you recommend, you would see
that Panasonic says overcharging, even with a trickle charge, will
damage NiMH batteries.

Are you trying to skew what I am saying by leaving out a time
constraint on charging????

Panasonic specifically recommends against trickle charging except on top
of a fast charge.


Then suggest trickle charging with a time limit. So do I.
If you buy a cheap charger, don't even check the current, and run it 2
hours a day, how can you possibly expect not to overcharge?

Because the charger is intentionally so weak that it can't harm the
battery in two hours no matter what the state of charge.

Now I remember why I got a fast charger when I got NiMH cells. My NiCd
charger would have been .05 lt for the NiMH I bought, and NiMH may not
charge at that current. Panasonic's chart shows that except at cool
temperatures, they won't charge fully even at .1 lt.



I didn't buy hybrid or low-self-discharge batteries. I bought the
ordinary NiMH cells available 11 years ago, and they still hold a charge
for months.

Define months. Non hybrids won't hold a full charge this long without
some sort of maintenance charge.

Lunar months are about 29.5 days. Calendar months are 28-31 days.

Panasonic shows that their ordinary NiMH cells may retain a 90% charge
after 4 weeks. That could mean 50% after 6 months. Even after 11
years, I expect that of my NiMH cells. Using a manual .1 lt charger, my
NiCds wouldn't hold a charge that long unless they were pretty new.

Are you trying to skew what I am saying by leaving out a time
constraint on charging????

Panasonic specifically recommends against trickle charging except on top
of a fast charge.

Again you are skewing the facts again. Panasonic's talk about
overcharging with trickle charging is assuming that the charger
stays on. Which I do agree with.

Then suggest trickle charging with a time limit. So do I.
If you buy a cheap charger, don't even check the current, and run it 2
hours a day, how can you possibly expect not to overcharge?

Because the charger is intentionally so weak that it can't harm the
battery in two hours no matter what the state of charge.

Now I remember why I got a fast charger when I got NiMH cells. My NiCd
charger would have been .05 lt for the NiMH I bought, and NiMH may not
charge at that current. Panasonic's chart shows that except at cool
temperatures, they won't charge fully even at .1 lt.



I didn't buy hybrid or low-self-discharge batteries. I bought the
ordinary NiMH cells available 11 years ago, and they still hold a charge
for months.

Define months. Non hybrids won't hold a full charge this long without
some sort of maintenance charge.

Lunar months are about 29.5 days. Calendar months are 28-31 days.

Good try. I said define monthS, with an S......When you speak of non
hybrid NIMH batteries and you say "and they still hold a charge for
months." What charge, and how many months?

Panasonic shows that their ordinary NiMH cells may retain a 90% charge
after 4 weeks. That could mean 50% after 6 months. Even after 11
years, I expect that of my NiMH cells. Using a manual .1 lt charger, my
NiCds wouldn't hold a charge that long unless they were pretty new.

wrote:

Are you trying to skew what I am saying by leaving out a time
constraint on charging????
Panasonic specifically recommends against trickle charging except on top
of a fast charge.

Again you are skewing the facts again. Panasonic's talk about
overcharging with trickle charging is assuming that the charger
stays on. Which I do agree with.

It's a fact that Panasonic simply says not to trickle charge.

They suggest trickle charging with a time limit. So do I.

The only trickle charge they suggest is on top of a fast charge. You
seem to say a trickle charge is whatever you happen to get from a cheap
charger. Are you calling .1 lt a trickle charge? Panasonic says that's
2 or 3 times bigger than a trickle charge. They recommend a timed .1 lt
charge only for standby batteries and they recommend that the charger
turn on only when the voltage falls below what they specify.


If you buy a cheap charger, don't even check the current, and run it 2
hours a day, how can you possibly expect not to overcharge?
Because the charger is intentionally so weak that it can't harm the
battery in two hours no matter what the state of charge.
Now I remember why I got a fast charger when I got NiMH cells. My NiCd
charger would have been .05 lt for the NiMH I bought, and NiMH may not
charge at that current. Panasonic's chart shows that except at cool
temperatures, they won't charge fully even at .1 lt.
I didn't buy hybrid or low-self-discharge batteries. I bought the
ordinary NiMH cells available 11 years ago, and they still hold a charge
for months.
Define months. Non hybrids won't hold a full charge this long without
some sort of maintenance charge.
Lunar months are about 29.5 days. Calendar months are 28-31 days.

Good try. I said define monthS, with an S......When you speak of non
hybrid NIMH batteries and you say "and they still hold a charge for
months." What charge, and how many months?

Since 1980, if I wondered about the condition of my nickel cells, I'd
charge each one and use it to power an analog clock while shunted with 2
ohms. That would tell me a cell's capacity. Then I'd try it again
after letting a charged cell sit on the shelf a week. That would allow
me to calculate self-discharge.

How about you? Have you tested the capacity and self-discharge of cells
exposed to current from a cheap charger two hours a day over a period of
months or years?

You don't seem to be a reader. I said I expect my old NiMH to hold a
charge 6 months. I've been using wireless keyboards 40 months. I've
recharged batteries 5 times. That would mean a pair of NiMH 10 years
old holds enough charge for a wireless keyboard about 8 months.

I've also done very well with NiCds after going to fast charging.
Either type of battery will probably power my 800ma flashlight after
several months on the shelf.


Panasonic shows that their ordinary NiMH cells may retain a 90% charge
after 4 weeks. That could mean 50% after 6 months. Even after 11
years, I expect that of my NiMH cells. Using a manual .1 lt charger, my
NiCds wouldn't hold a charge that long unless they were pretty new.

How about you? Have you tested the capacity and self-discharge of cells
exposed to current from a cheap charger two hours a day over a period of
months or years?

I've been charging Ni-Cads since 1983, NIMH AA's since 1996.

I've used fast chargers, medium chargers, slow chargers, smart
fast chargers, smart medium rate chargers, and just plain dumb
slow chargers. Then I started using the most inexpensive slow
dumb chargers I could find along with the cheapest mechanical
timer I could find. That reduced the rate of charge so slow that I
could keep the setup plugged into the wall continuously.

I've tossed AA NIMH batteries from fast smart chargers. I have never
had any AA NIMH battery go bad from the 8 day charge method.

What I have learned is this. When comparing much more expensive
smart chargers to my setup the only advantage to fast or mediums rate
smart chargers is time to charge. That's it.

The advantage of my 8 day to charge setup is it's impossible to harm
the batteries. I'll always have fully charged batteries on hand. The
price of the setup is ridiculously low.

wrote:
How about you? Have you tested the capacity and self-discharge of cells
exposed to current from a cheap charger two hours a day over a period of
months or years?

I've been charging Ni-Cads since 1983, NIMH AA's since 1996.

I've used fast chargers, medium chargers, slow chargers, smart
fast chargers, smart medium rate chargers, and just plain dumb
slow chargers. Then I started using the most inexpensive slow
dumb chargers I could find along with the cheapest mechanical
timer I could find. That reduced the rate of charge so slow that I
could keep the setup plugged into the wall continuously.

I've tossed AA NIMH batteries from fast smart chargers. I have never
had any AA NIMH battery go bad from the 8 day charge method.

What I have learned is this. When comparing much more expensive
smart chargers to my setup the only advantage to fast or mediums rate
smart chargers is time to charge. That's it.

The advantage of my 8 day to charge setup is it's impossible to harm
the batteries. I'll always have fully charged batteries on hand. The
price of the setup is ridiculously low.


When you said a person who set his timer for 2 hours a day would always
have a fresh set of batteries, I assumed you meant to keep them fresh by
charging every day.

How do you decide when to recharge? Did it work before hybrids were
available?

Panasonic says heat won't hurt NiMH until they reach a temperature where
they vent. I've never seen them nearly that hot. Panasonic says the
cumulative effect of overcharging will damage cells. That's why I like
a charger that senses the voltage drop when a cell is charged.

Eleven years ago I spent about $25 for a fast charger and four AA cells
from the Thompson Company, already mentioned in this thread. I have had
no trouble with those cells or the others I've added to my collection.

The advantage of my 8 day to charge setup is it's impossible to harm
the batteries. I'll always have fully charged batteries on hand. The
price of the setup is ridiculously low.

When you said a person who set his timer for 2 hours a day would always
have a fresh set of batteries, I assumed you meant to keep them fresh by
charging every day.

Two hours a day, every day.

Well, if a smart charger is smart enough to go into trickle charge,
and stay there, then just how is it that my trickle charger which
trickles considerably less can somehow become dumb and harm
the battery?

How do you decide when to recharge? Did it work before hybrids were
available?

It actually was/is more useful with batteries that have a high self
discharge rate. The batteries are topped off each day.

Panasonic says heat won't hurt NiMH until they reach a temperature where
they vent. I've never seen them nearly that hot. Panasonic says the
cumulative effect of overcharging will damage cells. That's why I like
a charger that senses the voltage drop when a cell is charged.

Again, all this is only pertaining to chargers that charge at a higher
rate. Chargers less than C/10 don't apply. Mine is C/15 at absolute
max, but in reality is more like C/50 once charged.

Eleven years ago I spent about $25 for a fast charger and four AA cells
from the Thompson Company, already mentioned in this thread. I have had
no trouble with those cells or the others I've added to my collection.

I found the mechanical timer at garage sale for 50 cents. The dumb
slow chargers were given to me by not so smart people that discarded
them when they made what they thought was a smart purchase. The
purchase of an expensive smart charger.

wrote:
The advantage of my 8 day to charge setup is it's impossible to harm
the batteries. I'll always have fully charged batteries on hand. The
price of the setup is ridiculously low.

When you said a person who set his timer for 2 hours a day would always
have a fresh set of batteries, I assumed you meant to keep them fresh by
charging every day.

Two hours a day, every day.

Well, if a smart charger is smart enough to go into trickle charge,
and stay there, then just how is it that my trickle charger which
trickles considerably less can somehow become dumb and harm
the battery?

Panasonic says a timer should terminate the C/20 - C/30 trickle. I
think a top-off trickle is foolish. Sometimes an automatic charger can
shut off before a cell is fully charged. So what? If sometimes I have
to swap batteries after running a device 9 hours instead of 10, I won't
notice. I will notice if I put charged cells on the shelf and they're
dead two weeks later because trickle charging has damaged them.


How do you decide when to recharge? Did it work before hybrids were
available?

It actually was/is more useful with batteries that have a high self
discharge rate. The batteries are topped off each day.

Before I bought my first NiMH, I read that their self-discharge was
higher than NiCd. I've been pleasantly surprised.


Panasonic says heat won't hurt NiMH until they reach a temperature where
they vent. I've never seen them nearly that hot. Panasonic says the
cumulative effect of overcharging will damage cells. That's why I like
a charger that senses the voltage drop when a cell is charged.

Again, all this is only pertaining to chargers that charge at a higher
rate. Chargers less than C/10 don't apply. Mine is C/15 at absolute
max, but in reality is more like C/50 once charged.

My first experience with a NiCd was using a Wahl soldering iron about
1973. On a ship's mast, it was a great advantage to be able to solder
without an electrical cord. The Wahl unit was intended to be kept in
its charger so it would always be charged. In a few weeks, the battery
was shorted. At the time, I thought the current was too high for
extended charging.

My second experience was with walkie-talkies in 1975. The old ones used
several alkalines. The new ones used NiCd battery packs. The
walkie-talkies were kept in chargers designed to fast charge and switch
to a trickle. Before long, these batteries would short. Back to alkalines.

I started using AA NiCds in 1981. They were supposed to be good for 500
charges. I'd read that the capacity would gradually diminish. Instead,
the self-discharge increased while the capacity showed little change.
My first set shorted completely within 100 charges.

In 1986, I made a regulated charger for a cordless drill. I thought
that would make the cells last longer. They went bad very quickly.

In my experience with AA NiCds, timed charging at C/10 causes cumulative
damage that increases self-discharge. In my experience with
walkie-talkies and a drill, regulated trickle charging is worse.

For me, automatic fast charging has worked much better. My chargers
measure only voltage change, and that's not foolproof. Panasonic says
an ideal charger should monitor voltage, temperature, voltage change,
temperature change, and time.

snip

Two hours a day, every day.

Well, if a smart charger is smart enough to go into trickle charge,
and stay there, then just how is it that my trickle charger which
trickles considerably less can somehow become dumb and harm
the battery?

Panasonic says a timer should terminate the C/20 - C/30 trickle. I
think a top-off trickle is foolish. Sometimes an automatic charger can
shut off before a cell is fully charged. So what? If sometimes I have
to swap batteries after running a device 9 hours instead of 10, I won't
notice. I will notice if I put charged cells on the shelf and they're
dead two weeks later because trickle charging has damaged them.

Just for you I measured the trickle charge using my method on AA's
that are already charged. 340 micro amps......for two hours a day.

Panasonic says- Panasonic says- Panasonic says- Panasonic says
- Panasonic says. Are you a parrot???????? What do you think?
Do you really think that a 340 micro amp trickle charge for two
hours a day will harm a battery?

snip

For me, automatic fast charging has worked much better. My chargers
measure only voltage change, and that's not foolproof. Panasonic says
an ideal charger should monitor voltage, temperature, voltage change,
temperature change, and time.

Panasonic says- Panasonic says- Panasonic says- Panasonic says

By the way 340 micro amps represents a c/6000 charge rate. Do you
still think this is harmful?