Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.
This cycle was repeated several times.

Then it changed so that turning on the breaker caused the breaker to trip
immediately.

With the breaker off, a working ohm meter showed no connection between the
hot and the neutral or ground. So it appeared as if either AC or a higher
voltage was required to see a short & trip the breaker. (Remember this
whole thing started during a thunderstorm).

I started disconnecting the receptacles & junction boxes one at a time
trying to isolate where the problem was. I saw no damaged wires. I did
not know the order in which things were connected so I'm sure the order I
did the disconnects was not the best.

Eventually I could turn the breaker on without it tripping so I started
connecting things back one item at a time, testing after each reconnection
until everything was connected as it originally was. The problem was gone.
I tried wiggling the wires I could reach but the problem stayed fixed. That
was several weeks ago.

Now, immediately after another electrical storm the problem is back.

What is going on? In giving an answer, please keep in mind:
1. The problem has appeared twice following a severe thunderstorm
2. An ohm meter showed an open circuit but it acts shorted under 120 VAC
3. No apparent physical damage to the wires.
4. The breaker stays on with the GFI connected but nothing downstream
connected.
5. The problem went away (until the next sever thunderstorm) after
dis/re-connecting everything.

MANY MANY thanks for any help.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

Thanks for your reply. I will do that. Something of that sort is the only
thing that makes sense to me. Could the burn hole be invisible because it
is through the black insulation in a spot that is covered by the yellow
(#12 wire) insulation?

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:01:49 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:23:15 -0400, wrote:

Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.
This cycle was repeated several times.

Then it changed so that turning on the breaker caused the breaker to trip
immediately.

With the breaker off, a working ohm meter showed no connection between the
hot and the neutral or ground. So it appeared as if either AC or a higher
voltage was required to see a short & trip the breaker. (Remember this
whole thing started during a thunderstorm).

I started disconnecting the receptacles & junction boxes one at a time
trying to isolate where the problem was. I saw no damaged wires. I did
not know the order in which things were connected so I'm sure the order I
did the disconnects was not the best.

Eventually I could turn the breaker on without it tripping so I started
connecting things back one item at a time, testing after each reconnection
until everything was connected as it originally was. The problem was gone.
I tried wiggling the wires I could reach but the problem stayed fixed. That
was several weeks ago.

Now, immediately after another electrical storm the problem is back.

What is going on? In giving an answer, please keep in mind:
1. The problem has appeared twice following a severe thunderstorm
2. An ohm meter showed an open circuit but it acts shorted under 120 VAC
3. No apparent physical damage to the wires.
4. The breaker stays on with the GFI connected but nothing downstream
connected.
5. The problem went away (until the next sever thunderstorm) after
dis/re-connecting everything.

MANY MANY thanks for any help.

Probably a small burn hole in a wire insulation right where it enters
one of the boxes. When you disturbed it, you allowed a small gap to
stop the problem. I'd open every box again and use a magnifying glass
to carefully inspect every wire right where it enters the box. Of
course there could be a hole anywhere in the wire, but normally this
occurs at a bend in the wire and a lightning zap burns a hole and the
lightning goes to ground. I have seen this happen several times.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

On Jun 29, 9:23*pm, wrote:
Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. *Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. *Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

Thanks for the reply.

As stated, the only GFI on the circuit was replaced with no change in
symptoms. It was also mentioned that there was no problem when the GIF was
in the circuit but everything downstream from it was disconnected. This
makes it hadr to believe the GFI is part of the problem.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Jun 29, 9:23*pm, wrote:
Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. *Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. *Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.
This cycle was repeated several times.

Then it changed so that turning on the breaker caused the breaker to trip
immediately.

With the breaker off, a working ohm meter showed no connection between the
hot and the neutral or ground. * So it appeared as if either AC or a higher
voltage was required to see a short & trip the breaker. *(Remember this
whole thing started during a thunderstorm).

I started disconnecting the receptacles & junction boxes one at a time
trying to isolate where the problem was. *I saw no damaged wires. *I did
not know the order in which things were connected so I'm sure the order I
did the disconnects was not the best.

Eventually I could turn the breaker on without it tripping so I started
connecting things back one item at a time, testing after each reconnection
until everything was connected as it originally was. *The problem was gone.
I tried wiggling the wires I could reach but the problem stayed fixed. That
was several weeks ago.

Now, immediately after another electrical storm the problem is back.

What is going on? *In giving an answer, please keep in mind:
1. The problem has appeared twice following a severe thunderstorm
2. An ohm meter showed an open circuit but it acts shorted under 120 VAC
3. No apparent physical damage to the wires.
4. The breaker stays on with the GFI connected but nothing downstream
connected.
5. The problem went away (until the next sever thunderstorm) after
dis/re-connecting everything.

MANY MANY thanks for any help.

Considering cost and time...how about replacing one or all of the
GFIs. It's possible that sensing circuits have become burned or
marginal.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

Do you have any power strips with surge protection?

These work by shorting the lines to each other and to ground. They can go
bad after a surge.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

On Jun 30, 8:34*am, wrote:
Thanks for the reply.

As stated, the only GFI on the circuit was replaced with no change in
symptoms. *It was also mentioned that there was no problem when the GIF was
in the circuit but everything downstream from it was disconnected. *This
makes it hadr to believe the GFI is part of the problem.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa
wrote:



On Jun 29, 9:23*pm, wrote:
Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. *Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. *Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.
This cycle was repeated several times.

Then it changed so that turning on the breaker caused the breaker to trip
immediately.

With the breaker off, a working ohm meter showed no connection between the
hot and the neutral or ground. * So it appeared as if either AC or a higher
voltage was required to see a short & trip the breaker. *(Remember this
whole thing started during a thunderstorm).

I started disconnecting the receptacles & junction boxes one at a time
trying to isolate where the problem was. *I saw no damaged wires. *I did
not know the order in which things were connected so I'm sure the order I
did the disconnects was not the best.

Eventually I could turn the breaker on without it tripping so I started
connecting things back one item at a time, testing after each reconnection
until everything was connected as it originally was. *The problem was gone.
I tried wiggling the wires I could reach but the problem stayed fixed. That
was several weeks ago.

Now, immediately after another electrical storm the problem is back.

What is going on? *In giving an answer, please keep in mind:
1. The problem has appeared twice following a severe thunderstorm
2. An ohm meter showed an open circuit but it acts shorted under 120 VAC
3. No apparent physical damage to the wires.
4. The breaker stays on with the GFI connected but nothing downstream
connected.
5. The problem went away (until the next sever thunderstorm) after
dis/re-connecting everything.

MANY MANY thanks for any help.

Considering cost and time...how about replacing one or all of the
GFIs. It's possible that sensing circuits have become burned or
marginal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I see nowhere that you changed the GFI !?
Maybe I am blind !

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

On Jun 29, 10:23*pm, wrote:
Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped. *Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. *Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

wrote in message
...
Sorry this is so long but I need to describe the whole thing.

After an electrical storm, one of the kitchen GFIs was tripped.
Everything
was unplugged from all receptacles on the circuit. When the GFI was reset
the breaker tripped. Resetting the breaker caused the GFI to trip again.
This cycle was repeated several times.

Then it changed so that turning on the breaker caused the breaker to trip
immediately.

With the breaker off, a working ohm meter showed no connection between the
hot and the neutral or ground. So it appeared as if either AC or a
higher
voltage was required to see a short & trip the breaker. (Remember this
whole thing started during a thunderstorm).

I started disconnecting the receptacles & junction boxes one at a time
trying to isolate where the problem was. I saw no damaged wires. I did
not know the order in which things were connected so I'm sure the order I
did the disconnects was not the best.

Eventually I could turn the breaker on without it tripping so I started
connecting things back one item at a time, testing after each reconnection
until everything was connected as it originally was. The problem was
gone.
I tried wiggling the wires I could reach but the problem stayed fixed.
That
was several weeks ago.

Now, immediately after another electrical storm the problem is back.

What is going on? In giving an answer, please keep in mind:
1. The problem has appeared twice following a severe thunderstorm
2. An ohm meter showed an open circuit but it acts shorted under 120 VAC
3. No apparent physical damage to the wires.
4. The breaker stays on with the GFI connected but nothing downstream
connected.
5. The problem went away (until the next sever thunderstorm) after
dis/re-connecting everything.

MANY MANY thanks for any help.
Since this is an unusual problem and normal diagnosis has not found the
problem, the next logical step is to start replacing things, cheapest and
easiest first. Since you have replaced the GFI, the next logical step is to
replace the breaker. Once components are eliminated, all that is left is the
wiring.

If you can borrow a "megger", it checks insulation at higher voltage,
typically 500 volts. They will often find charred insulation. They are
commonly used in industrial electrical work and electric motor testing.

Don Young

Really WEIRD electrical problem
 

The second time the problem appeared it didn't go away and I was able to
isolate it to a peice of wire about 4' long in a wall which I couldn't
access without opening the wall. The modular manufacturer will have to
deal with it.

I was able to temporarily wire around the defective piece of wire.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Really WEIRD electrical problem