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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest


I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest


"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...

I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss


I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the roof.
Too expensive for your return.

Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be the
most effective.


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Jun 17, 1:06*pm, Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. *The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. *The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). *We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. *The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.

* * * * Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?

Thanks,

Andy Barss


Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
may find windows or another issue more important.
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Jun 17, 1:06*pm, Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. *The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. *The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). *We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roofh
treatment. *The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.

* * * * Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?

Thanks,

Andy Barss


You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which comes with
its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . I wouldnt
be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my houses with
tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last longer. The
Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end grilles
and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well. You can get
them at any Lowes, Home DePot, or Menards store. About $80 . Forget
about static Ridge Vents...they are virtually useless -- you need to
FORCE the air out of the attic . Further, I would lay batt insulation
in your attic on top of the blown in insulation after you smooth it
out so its level. Use R30 batt insulation which will come 24' long
and 15" wide (also available 24" wide) and is 9.5" thick. I just did
mine and immediately noticed the difference. These two improvement
done together will make your inside much more comfortable as well as
reduce the runtime of your cooling system (as much as 30%) thereby
saving you money . Ive vacationed in Tucson 7 times over the years
and almost moved there in 1980 . I spent my honeymoon on Mt. Lemmon at
SummerHaven .
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Jun 17, 12:06*pm, Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. *The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. *The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). *We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. *The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.

* * * * Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?

Thanks,

Andy Barss


I have seen about a one-third reduction in electricity bills by
blowing in insulation in the attic.
Make sure you cover electrical fixtures before blowing in the
insulation.

If you don't have thermostatically controlled blowers in the attic,
get some.

Solar screens also help a lot.

Andy


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


"d", although not the whole story, is probably the closest for old
construction.

Some other things to take into consideration for hot climates:

Vented roofs reduce the total solar heat gain by roughly 3 to 5%.
Consider installing ridge vents instead of the passive rotary vents
along with your vented soffits. Clay or concrete tile shingles can
reduce the solar heat gain by 10 to 15% in a vented roof. Color is not a
big an overall factor as you might think; material is, however. Dark
colored clay or concrete tile shingles outperform light colored asphalt
shingles, but in general light colored roofs do perform better than
dark, although it may not be significant taking material into account.

Radiant barriers can have a significant effect on reducing solar heat
gain on asphalt shingled roofs, not so much on clay or concrete
shingles. Best is a product like "tech-shield" used as decking, better
than none at all is the spray on radiant barrier paint. Keep in mind
that you need at least 1" of void space below the radiant barrier for
maximum effect. Radiant barriers do perform significantly better on
vented roof systems.

Basically, unvented roofs with clay or concrete tile shingles and R-19
insulation or greater; and vented roof systems, with mechanical
equipment and ductwork within the conditioned space, and R-19 or greater
ceiling insulation, perform the best in the Southwest.

If you do decide on "e", your best bet for hot climates is a design that
incorporates AC ductwork and air handlers within the building thermal
barrier, and a vented roof with clay tile or concrete tile shingles and
an R-30 or greater ceiling insulation.

If the AC ductwork and air handlers must be located in the attic spaces,
then go with a design that incorporates an unvented roof, creating a
conditioned attic space for the mechanical equipment.

Do your homework and find some "green" building seminars in your area
.... the woods are full of them.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house, especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house
has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic
has some blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and
nothing on the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything
there is essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting --
there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
(rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


In addition to the other wonderful suggestions, I'd offer the following:

1. Light-colored roof. A good idea, BUT... drive around your city. Do you
see any? No? Why not? The reason is that they discolor in a ghastly fashion
from the junk in the air. In places like Rome, they have permanent
pressure-washer crews prowling the city cleaning off the marble statues. IF
you're lucky, one side of the roof may be completely unseen by the
picky-public and you could get away with a white roof there.

2. You can't have too many soffit vents. If your ENTIRE soffit is a vent,
that's good. I'm not sure what birdboard might be, but if it's anything like
the perforated Hardiplank, it's probably insufficient. While the holy plank
stuff has a lot of holes, their total combined area is miniscule.

Experts agree that the unobstructed soffit vent area should be 1 sq in for
each 1 sq ft of attic space (again, more is better).


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

Master Tang wrote:
"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...

I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access.
The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is
essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there
are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
(rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss


I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the
roof. Too expensive for your return.

Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be
the most effective.


If you don't have the soffit vent the ridge vent doesn't help all that
much--air has to come in before it can go out.

The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it in
premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.

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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

"Andrew Barss" wrote:

I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

snip


As the old saying goes, "Advice is usually worth what you pay for it."

As someone else suggested, contract with a reputable firm and have a
total energy audit performed.

It will cost a few $, but it will save many times that cost.

Otherwise you are flying blind.

Lew


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Master Tang wrote:
"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...

I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access.
The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is
essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there
are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
(rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss


I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the
roof. Too expensive for your return.

Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be
the most effective.


If you don't have the soffit vent the ridge vent doesn't help all that
much--air has to come in before it can go out.

The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it in
premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.


I'd assume (?) the installer of the ridge vent would know that. The one that
installed mine did.




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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:06:57 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:


I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

....

I would suggest blowing in more insulation for now. In the
future your shingles will fail and then you can remove them, add a
ridge vent and open up the soffits as much as possible. At that time
I would consider adding a layer of insulation (high efficiency foam)
on the current roof, after removing the shingles, and then the new
roof over that.

The cost of energy is just going to continue to climb.
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss

I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
(ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
a cool airflow throughout the house.

Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/fil...use-fans-1.pdf

~Mark.
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest


"Woody" wrote in message
...
Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small vents on
the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better the
situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles, and in quite good
condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss

I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the attic.
I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic (ceiling
of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into the attic.
This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create a cool
airflow throughout the house.

Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/fil...use-fans-1.pdf

~Mark.


So he should suck in the 113 degree heat and pump it into his house?


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

A couple years ago, it was summer time. The company I was
working for, we had been installing an air handler and AC in
the attic of a house. We had a roof company install a power
vent. After they installed, I temporary wired it in, and
turned it on. You could feel the difference almost
immediately, with the fan dumping the hot, humid attic air
out. I'm a believer in roof power vents based on that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


" wrote in message
...

You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which
comes with
its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . I
wouldnt
be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my
houses with
tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last
longer. The
Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end
grilles
and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well.


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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss


For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
ceiling rafters.

Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but the
main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life of the
roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also add soffit
venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent for proper air
flow. See:

http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm

http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf

and

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_hom.../mytopic=11390

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA



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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Jun 17, 4:16*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
A couple years ago, it was summer time. The company I was
working for, we had been installing an air handler and AC in
the attic of a house. We had a roof company install a power
vent. After they installed, I temporary wired it in, and
turned it on. You could feel the difference almost
immediately, with the fan dumping the hot, humid attic air
out. I'm a believer in roof power vents based on that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

" wrote in message

...

You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which
comes with
its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . *I
whouldnt
be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my
houses with
tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last
longer. The
Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end
grilles
and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well.


Absolutely. Nothing else will help as much as a Powered Roof Mounted
Attic Fan with adequate makeup air via perforated soffits / gable
vents.
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Jun 17, 2:35*pm, Woody wrote:
Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.


I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. *The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. *The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). *We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.


I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:


a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.


e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. *The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


* *Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,


Andy Barss


I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
(ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
a cool airflow throughout the house.

Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.org/fil...use-fans-1.pdf

~Mark.


My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.

In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
around.

I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
migrate into the house.

Andy
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ransley wrote:
On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.

Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?

Thanks,

Andy Barss


Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
may find windows or another issue more important.


Maybe Tucson is big enough so he can find somebody who will do that. I
tried around here- none of the Utility, Insulation, or HVAC companies
offer the service. I'd have to pay hundreds of dollars to have somebody
come over from the Big City to do it.

--
aem sends...
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Default Attic Insulation and/or Venting in the Southwest

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:06:57 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:


I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.


How thick is the insulation now? Blown insulation will settle over
time and perhaps not have the same R value.

b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.


In a pinch, staple cardboard from the vent and above the blown in
material,

Spend a little time and find out why your doors and windows, leak most
energy. Smoke pencil, exotic incense helps show a draft.

DIY home audit

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Nova wrote:
Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house, especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The
attic
has some blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and
nothing on the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything
there is essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting --
there are small vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive
vents
(rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss


For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
ceiling rafters.

Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but
the main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life
of the roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also
add soffit venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent
for proper air flow. See:

http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm


Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
* "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity
* "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?
* "... problem of mildew..." Meh.
* "Ice dams..." Again, in Tuscon?


http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf


Commercial brochure on ridge vents. Good explanation (except for the bit
about exhausting hot, HUMID, air).


and

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_hom.../mytopic=11390


Typical government simplistic check-list. Superficial, but good,
suggestions.




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"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Snip
..

Radiant barriers can have a significant effect on reducing solar heat gain
on asphalt shingled roofs, not so much on clay or concrete shingles. Best
is a product like "tech-shield" used as decking, better than none at all
is the spray on radiant barrier paint. Keep in mind that you need at least
1" of void space below the radiant barrier for maximum effect. Radiant
barriers do perform significantly better on vented roof systems.



To add to what Swingman has mentioned here, my parents had the rediant
barrier sprayed into their attic and had 8 more inches of insulation blown
in. This was done last year in July. So far this year they have averaged a
20% savings in hours used on the months that they have been using the air
conditioning.

I can tell you right now that pay back will be a long process if you only
consider your electricity savings to the cost of the improvement. I can
tell you that you will probably save money on equipment repairs and or
equipment replacement. The AC simply does not have to work as hard. My
parents keep the thermostat at 76-77 degrees all summer long and the
temperature stays there. Last year before the improvements the inside temp
stayed at 79-81 degrees. Additionally there are no longer any "Hot Spots"
in the house. Regardless of which room you are in the temp seems to be the
same.

Last, I built a wood and Hardiplank store room about 5 years ago. I chose
to use Radiant Barrier Decking over standard Decking. The cost was about $4
per sheet more. The store room has one door that stays shut and no windows.
It has sofit vents only. The store room does not feel any hotter in side
than the out side temperature. IMHO well worth the small additional expense
as Christmas candles do not melt nor do I when I am inside the store room.









Basically, unvented roofs with clay or concrete tile shingles and R-19
insulation or greater; and vented roof systems, with mechanical equipment
and ductwork within the conditioned space, and R-19 or greater ceiling
insulation, perform the best in the Southwest.

If you do decide on "e", your best bet for hot climates is a design that
incorporates AC ductwork and air handlers within the building thermal
barrier, and a vented roof with clay tile or concrete tile shingles and an
R-30 or greater ceiling insulation.

If the AC ductwork and air handlers must be located in the attic spaces,
then go with a design that incorporates an unvented roof, creating a
conditioned attic space for the mechanical equipment.

Do your homework and find some "green" building seminars in your area ...
the woods are full of them.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)



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On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:

Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
* "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity
* "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?
* "... problem of mildew..." Meh.
* "Ice dams..." Again, in Tuscon?



http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf


Commercial brochure on ridge vents. Good explanation (except for the bit
about exhausting hot, HUMID, air).



and


http://www.energysavers.gov/your_hom...ling/index.cfm...


Typical government simplistic check-list. Superficial, but good,
suggestions.


Heh, heh. Absolutely right, HeyBub. Mr Barss, There are some folks
here with excellent ideas. Namely: Make sure you've got soffit vents
if you're installing ridge vent. Make sure your insulation doesn't
cover the soffit vents. If it's worth doing, overdo it (insulation-
wise). I'm not sure about those radiant barriers, as the underside of
the decking _must_ breathe very well. I roofed for twenty-plus years
in MI, and I'm looking at re-doing my roof here in Tucson pretty soon.
I'm probably going with painted standing seam metal. I wish copper was
more affordable, or I was richer... Tom
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On Jun 17, 2:41*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

snip


The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it in
premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.


It's called Accuvent. We installed a bunch of it on a current project.
Local Home Depot didn't stock it, so had to order from HD online and
pay some shipping. Neither Lowes nor Menards has anything like it.
Goes up fast and will work with R30 easily. Highly recommended.

Joe

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On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:05:30 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

ransley wrote:
On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.

Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?

Thanks,

Andy Barss


Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
may find windows or another issue more important.


Maybe Tucson is big enough so he can find somebody who will do that. I
tried around here- none of the Utility, Insulation, or HVAC companies
offer the service. I'd have to pay hundreds of dollars to have somebody
come over from the Big City to do it.



Inadequate attic insulation WILL be the largest heat gain that can be
reduced economically. 15 inches of insulation and good ducted soffit
vents with adequate roof ventilation (I'm partial to full length ridge
vents for hot arid locations myself) is the best way to keep the heat
out.. An insulated, reflective roof surface is a secondary method.
Asbestos cement roof panels were very effective in Central Africa in
the '70s - but are no longer an option here.

Large overhangs to shade windows, along with properly installed Low-E
glass will also help. Large roof overhangs also shade the walls (which
should also be well insulated).

Also a good idea to keep concrete driveways and patios well away from
the house to avoid heat radiation and reflection into the house from
them to a minimum. Grass isn't an ideal solution in Phoenix but is
quite effective in reducing reflected/re-radiated heat.
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Andy,

More insulation, vent along the entire roof ridge, and vented bird blocks.

cm


"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...

I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.

I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.

I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:

a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.

e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.


Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss





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Swingman wrote:


Basically, unvented roofs with clay or concrete tile shingles and R-19
insulation or greater; and vented roof systems, with mechanical
equipment and ductwork within the conditioned space, and R-19 or greater
ceiling insulation, perform the best in the Southwest.


If the AC ductwork and air handlers must be located in the attic spaces,
then go with a design that incorporates an unvented roof, creating a
conditioned attic space for the mechanical equipment.


I find that very interesting.
My attic currently has no venting whatsoever. It had a power vent which
did not work.
Good thing, as there were no other vents in the attic at all, so I guess
it would have pulled air from the house.

Here's the situation:

1500 sq ft home in North Texas DFW
Hot, with high humidity
Attic space is less than half the floor space, due to vaulted ceilings
HVAC ducts are the accordion-style hoses in the attic.
Insulation is older loose rock wool.
Roof is painted metal over asphalt shingles.
Almost all the attic space is shaded by overhanging tree branches.
Soffit space with attic exposure is approximately 10 feet.

Is it OK to leave this unvented?

If I do vent it, I'll probably use a power vent and add a gable vent at
the other end of the attic. I may also make it an operable vent, and
add a 2nd operable vent into the living space to use it as a whole-house
fan. Any reason that won't work? I realize I would need a
tight-sealing grille into the living space.

Suggestions welcome.
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WhiteTea77581 wrote:
On Jun 17, 2:35 pm, Woody wrote:
Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.
I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:
a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.
e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.
Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
Thanks,
Andy Barss

I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
(ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
a cool airflow throughout the house.

Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.org/fil...use-fans-1.pdf

~Mark.


My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.

In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
around.

I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
migrate into the house.

Andy


As hot air rises *and* the hottest air is in the attic, how do you
propose it "migrate" to lower parts of the house?

My understanding (and what I did via an attic roof fan) is to cool the
attic air so that living spaces adjacent to it are not next to as-hot
attic air and thus reduce the AC demand in those living areas.

If there's one or more active fans on the attic vents (as I indicated
and previous responder suggested) then the hot attic air would escape
(i.e. be blown out) as cooler air, pulled into the attic via a fan
entered. Thus lowering the attic air temperature. Thus lowering adjacent
living space heat. Thus lowering AC demand. Thus lowering AC costs.

Typically, these are thermostatically controlled so that once they reach
some "reasonable" temperature level, you don't continue to blow living
space air into them.

~Mark.

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HeyBub wrote:
Nova wrote:

For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
ceiling rafters.

Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but
the main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life
of the roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also
add soffit venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent
for proper air flow. See:

http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm



Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
* "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity


I think people in Tucson still cook, take showers, etc. All produce
moisture that will rise until stopped by a vapor barrier, often the
roof. If there no venting...

* "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?


Although I didn't write the article I'll give you this one.

* "... problem of mildew..." Meh.


See cooking, showering above.

snip


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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Woody wrote:
WhiteTea77581 wrote:
On Jun 17, 2:35 pm, Woody wrote:
Andrew Barss wrote:
I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.
I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house
has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic
has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:
a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.
e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.
Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
Thanks,
Andy Barss
I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
(ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
a cool airflow throughout the house.

Here's a fact sheet from consumer
reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.org/fil...use-fans-1.pdf

~Mark.


My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.

In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
around.

I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
migrate into the house.

Andy


As hot air rises *and* the hottest air is in the attic, how do you
propose it "migrate" to lower parts of the house?

My understanding (and what I did via an attic roof fan) is to cool the
attic air so that living spaces adjacent to it are not next to as-hot
attic air and thus reduce the AC demand in those living areas.

If there's one or more active fans on the attic vents (as I indicated
and previous responder suggested) then the hot attic air would escape
(i.e. be blown out) as cooler air, pulled into the attic via a fan
entered. Thus lowering the attic air temperature. Thus lowering adjacent
living space heat. Thus lowering AC demand. Thus lowering AC costs.

Typically, these are thermostatically controlled so that once they reach
some "reasonable" temperature level, you don't continue to blow living
space air into them.

~Mark.

Attic/gable fans can make a big difference in the Arizona desert,
lowering the attic temperature form 150+F to closer to the ambient 115F
summer temp.

My unvented cardboard box solar cooker can reach close to 300F in the
summer months. Was telling a former AZ resident about the solar cooker
and he wondered why I bothered as I could probably accomplish the same
thing by placing the cooking vessel in the trunk of the car...
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Soffit vents are 'required'.
Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
where it meets your walls.

Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.

A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.

-Bruce



Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?


Thanks,

Andy Barss





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Bruce wrote:
Soffit vents are 'required'.
Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
where it meets your walls.

Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.

A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.


Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?

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On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:44:47 -0600, RB wrote
(in article ):

Bruce wrote:
Soffit vents are 'required'.
Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
where it meets your walls.

Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.

A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.


Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?


I can't find a manufacturers name on mine, but its aluminum and has felt
seals at the edges of the slats. Sealing has never been a problem (no bugs or
other things get back through), but during the winter when I'm not running
the cooler, I place a plastic cover over the vent to stop all air movement.

Here is a link to a similar vent:

http://houseneeds.com/shop/vent/qmar...huttersbuy.asp

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On Jun 19, 8:44 am, RB wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Soffit vents are 'required'.
Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
where it meets your walls.


Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.


A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.


Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?


Google "upducts". Tom
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Attic venting question James Bond Home Repair 2 May 12th 05 07:53 PM


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