Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 410
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

Smitty Two wrote:
In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

RB wrote:
There is a product on the market now called 50FUEL
It's pure gasoline premixed to 50:1 oil/gas or 40:1
Shelf life of 2 years at least.
For things like trimmers and chainsaws, it seems to solve some starting
and run problems on my equipment. Retails for $4 - $5 /qt

Wow, $16-$20 per gallon?! That's sure paying a lot extra for the
convenience of not spending 35 seconds dumping a little bottle of
pre-measured 2-cycle oil into a small gas can.


But it's *pure* gasoline, Pete. Made by the Amish.


Company is based in Louisiana.
No telling what those Cajuns put in it.
I suspect it is mixed in a big pot in someone's backyard.
  #42   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,907
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

RB wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
RB wrote:
There is a product on the market now called 50FUEL
It's pure gasoline premixed to 50:1 oil/gas or 40:1
Shelf life of 2 years at least.
For things like trimmers and chainsaws, it seems to solve some starting
and run problems on my equipment. Retails for $4 - $5 /qt


Wow, $16-$20 per gallon?! That's sure paying a lot extra for the
convenience of not spending 35 seconds dumping a little bottle of
pre-measured 2-cycle oil into a small gas can.


I did the math.
I'm not driving to the gas station to fill up a 1-gallon can, nor buying
the oil separately. And I'm getting pure product with no ethanol.
My Ryobi trimmer had been giving me problems with hard starting and
running. It's much better with the first tank of this stuff.
A quart will last me about 2 months of summer usage.


I don't make a special trip to fill a gas can and just bring it along
and stop on the way home and fuel the car at the same time. You can buy
synthetic oil that contains fuel stabilizer in an easy measure bottle.
I noticed a significant improvement in operation when I started using it.

I haven't noticed any issues with ethanol blend except that it was
stupidly implemented. Currently only two brands even sell it in my area
because it is more expensive than "plain" gasoline.
  #43   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 322
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:11:20 -0500, dpb wrote:

LouB wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Murriel wrote:
Years ago I was told not to use automotive oil in garden tractors and
lawn mowers but rather oil especially formulated for those devices,
such as brands bearing the names "Briggs and Stratton," "Cub Cadet,"
etc.

For four cycle engines use a good synthetic motor oil, I use Mobil 1
5W-30 in all my power equipment. For two cycle engines use a brand name
two cycle oil for the fuel-oil mix.

Now I see that the gasoline at the staion where I deal has 10%
ethanol. Is this acceptable for lawn mowers and garden tractors?

Not really, but you don't really have any other option unless you can
travel to one of the few states where you can get alcohol free gasoline.
To compensate you should put Sta-Bil in all your power equipment fuel,
even if you don't expect to store it that long as the alcoholic fuel
doesn't store well for even short periods.


Could that be why my gas golf cart stopped starting after I filled the
tank (it is ab old cart)?


Highly unlikely.

I don't think there's anything to back up the previous poster's assertions.


He is right, but for the wrong reason. It takes special materials to
handle the corrosive alcohol in fuel. Many older cars and truck could be
ruined by using gasohol. Small engines are not designed to handle alcohol
in the fuel and will eventually destroy the carb.
  #44   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

Michael Dobony wrote:
....
He is right, but for the wrong reason. It takes special materials to
handle the corrosive alcohol in fuel. Many older cars and truck could be
ruined by using gasohol. Small engines are not designed to handle alcohol
in the fuel and will eventually destroy the carb.


Whether the small engine(s) were or were not designed for ethanol fuels
depends mostly on the age of the engine--see the link from B&S posted
earlier which confirms that E10 is fine for their current engines (as,
of course, will be true for essentially any now given the widespread
mandates for ethanol blends it's almost a given).

--
  #45   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:21:12 -0500, RB wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
RB wrote:
There is a product on the market now called 50FUEL
It's pure gasoline premixed to 50:1 oil/gas or 40:1
Shelf life of 2 years at least.
For things like trimmers and chainsaws, it seems to solve some starting
and run problems on my equipment. Retails for $4 - $5 /qt


Wow, $16-$20 per gallon?! That's sure paying a lot extra for the
convenience of not spending 35 seconds dumping a little bottle of
pre-measured 2-cycle oil into a small gas can.


I did the math.
I'm not driving to the gas station to fill up a 1-gallon can, nor buying
the oil separately. And I'm getting pure product with no ethanol.
My Ryobi trimmer had been giving me problems with hard starting and
running. It's much better with the first tank of this stuff.
A quart will last me about 2 months of summer usage.



I last filled my chain-saw (an old Remington) over 2 years ago with
some mixed gas drained from a friend's ultralight airplane. It is 40:1
standard air-cooled engine 2 stroke oil mixed with 100LL aviation gas.
The saw started on the second pull when I needed it today. The gas was
low in the tank so I filled it out of my plastic fuel can with more of
the same gas.
This little Remington is a VERY high compression engine - it will pull
the ctarter cord right out of your hand if you are not real careful
starting it. The cackle from the exhaust lets you know it is a pretty
high performance machine. 24" bar on 35cc, IIRC. Might be 38.

Cut 2 trees with it this afternoon..


  #46   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:38:07 -0400, George
wrote:

RB wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
RB wrote:
There is a product on the market now called 50FUEL
It's pure gasoline premixed to 50:1 oil/gas or 40:1
Shelf life of 2 years at least.
For things like trimmers and chainsaws, it seems to solve some starting
and run problems on my equipment. Retails for $4 - $5 /qt

Wow, $16-$20 per gallon?! That's sure paying a lot extra for the
convenience of not spending 35 seconds dumping a little bottle of
pre-measured 2-cycle oil into a small gas can.


I did the math.
I'm not driving to the gas station to fill up a 1-gallon can, nor buying
the oil separately. And I'm getting pure product with no ethanol.
My Ryobi trimmer had been giving me problems with hard starting and
running. It's much better with the first tank of this stuff.
A quart will last me about 2 months of summer usage.


I don't make a special trip to fill a gas can and just bring it along
and stop on the way home and fuel the car at the same time. You can buy
synthetic oil that contains fuel stabilizer in an easy measure bottle.
I noticed a significant improvement in operation when I started using it.

I haven't noticed any issues with ethanol blend except that it was
stupidly implemented. Currently only two brands even sell it in my area
because it is more expensive than "plain" gasoline.



The ethanol blends CAN muck up the fuel lines, depending what
material they are made of. I replace mine with Tygothane. It can also
deteriorate diaphragms in carbs.

When my saw is not running on Aviation gas I use Shell Ultra - because
it is always ethanol free in Canada and has the octane required for
the hot little Remington.

Secret to buying ethanol free premium for small engine use - start the
pump and put a gallon or so in your car - then fill your can. This way
any regular left in the hose (assuming a mixer pump) goes in the car
tank. Shut off the pump and pay for the gas - then switch to regular
and put gas in your car. That way YOU get the premium that was left in
the hose in YOUR car - not the next guy.
  #47   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:40:56 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:11:20 -0500, dpb wrote:

LouB wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Murriel wrote:
Years ago I was told not to use automotive oil in garden tractors and
lawn mowers but rather oil especially formulated for those devices,
such as brands bearing the names "Briggs and Stratton," "Cub Cadet,"
etc.

For four cycle engines use a good synthetic motor oil, I use Mobil 1
5W-30 in all my power equipment. For two cycle engines use a brand name
two cycle oil for the fuel-oil mix.

Now I see that the gasoline at the staion where I deal has 10%
ethanol. Is this acceptable for lawn mowers and garden tractors?

Not really, but you don't really have any other option unless you can
travel to one of the few states where you can get alcohol free gasoline.
To compensate you should put Sta-Bil in all your power equipment fuel,
even if you don't expect to store it that long as the alcoholic fuel
doesn't store well for even short periods.

Could that be why my gas golf cart stopped starting after I filled the
tank (it is ab old cart)?


Highly unlikely.

I don't think there's anything to back up the previous poster's assertions.


He is right, but for the wrong reason. It takes special materials to
handle the corrosive alcohol in fuel. Many older cars and truck could be
ruined by using gasohol. Small engines are not designed to handle alcohol
in the fuel and will eventually destroy the carb.



For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it
has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme
pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control
reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it,
the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the
heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will
have it.
The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it. Use them
for best engine life.
  #49   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

Air cooled engines run a lot hotter. At least, that's what
my instructor said, when I took the small engine course.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dpb" wrote in message
...

BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands
than an
automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't
either...

I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle
engine have any
special requirements more stringent than the above.



  #50   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Air cooled engines run a lot hotter. At least, that's what
my instructor said, when I took the small engine course.


Look at the manufacturer's oil spec's in comparison in terms of API
ratings...

--




  #51   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 410
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it
has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme
pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control
reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it,
the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the
heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will
have it. The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it.
Use them
for best engine life.


BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands than an
automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't either...

"Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated...and approved by Briggs
& Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all Briggs &
Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified SJ/CD by the API"

The API classification is nothing different than that for most modern
automotive applications.

I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle engine have any
special requirements more stringent than the above.


Air-cooled engines always have hotspots, no matter how well-designed.
That's why even Porsche and VW eventually gave up on air-cooled engines.

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.
It would be a marketing nightmare for them, and a warranty issue.
"Don't buy a mower with a B&S engine. You have to use B&S oil, and that
stuff is expensive." They know that the original owner is rarely going
to put enough hours on the engine to wear it out, and even then it won't
be blamed on anything in particular. How many people are going to run a
mower 10 years until it just won't run anymore, then realize "If only I
had used motorcyle oil I'd get another 5 years out of it." ?

As to wear additives, it's true that the best of them has been
eliminated for the sake of emissions, specifically catalytic convertors.
That's a great tip on using bike oils. I'm going to check with my Lucas
rep and see if their Motorcycle Synthetics will work in my non-catalyst
cars. I think racing oils should also still have the anti-wear zinc and
other additives.


  #52   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

RB wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it
has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme
pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control
reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it,
the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the
heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will
have it. The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it.
Use them
for best engine life.


BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands than an
automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't either...

"Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated...and approved by
Briggs & Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all
Briggs & Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified
SJ/CD by the API"

The API classification is nothing different than that for most modern
automotive applications.

I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle engine have
any special requirements more stringent than the above.


Air-cooled engines always have hotspots, no matter how well-designed.
That's why even Porsche and VW eventually gave up on air-cooled engines.

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.
It would be a marketing nightmare for them, and a warranty issue.
"Don't buy a mower with a B&S engine. You have to use B&S oil, and that
stuff is expensive." They know that the original owner is rarely going
to put enough hours on the engine to wear it out, and even then it won't
be blamed on anything in particular. How many people are going to run a
mower 10 years until it just won't run anymore, then realize "If only I
had used motorcyle oil I'd get another 5 years out of it." ?

As to wear additives, it's true that the best of them has been
eliminated for the sake of emissions, specifically catalytic convertors.
That's a great tip on using bike oils. I'm going to check with my Lucas
rep and see if their Motorcycle Synthetics will work in my non-catalyst
cars. I think racing oils should also still have the anti-wear zinc and
other additives.


Yabbut the thread was for small lawnmower engines, not racing or other
extreme duty applications. There's little need nor anything to be
gained from using anything greatly exceeding the OEM's API
recommendations in normal use.

Virtually any quality automotive oil of proper viscosity rating of the
last 20-30 years will be more than adequate since the advent of the
higher-temperature running auto engines beginning in the 80s for the
emission controls. In the 50s thru say 70s the requirements were pretty
minimal and some might show some temperature breakdown in air-cooled
engines I'll agree but that's pretty much gone by the by...

Again, high performance bike engines, etc., etc., aren't/weren't the
subject. Using such won't hurt anything and the small quantities
required means it won't really cost a whole lot extra but it generally
isn't really going to make any difference ever be able to tell.

As noted upthread, we're running some 30-40 yr-old small engine
equipment regularly. For most of their lifetimes (until Farmland Co-op
closed their refinery and quit manufacturing it) they ran on an
all-purpose API SE/SF/SD multi-grade that included full engine warranty
(including the turbochargers) service and a drained oil sample test kit
returned at every change for all of the trucks and tractors. After that
went away and w/ the arrival of the larger crankcase capacity tractors
went to bulk JD multi-grade but not synthetic -- JD did not recommend
switching to synthetics on engines formerly not on them. Use it in
everything...

--
  #53   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

RB wrote:
....

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.

....

But the intended point is (which my other response didn't do well) that
they _could_ have spec'ed a more stringent API classification but
didn't. It's not that there's any shortage of grades from which to
choose to meet the needs of the engines they're designing.

That they didn't indicates something...

--
  #55   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 410
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

dpb wrote:
RB wrote:
...

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.

...

But the intended point is (which my other response didn't do well) that
they _could_ have spec'ed a more stringent API classification but
didn't. It's not that there's any shortage of grades from which to
choose to meet the needs of the engines they're designing.

That they didn't indicates something...


My points were two:

Air-cooled engines can have localized hotspots that exceed the temps
found in automotive watercooled engines. Speaking only of areas touched
by the oil.

Current API specs have all but eliminated the traditional, and most
effective wear reducing additives so as not to foul your cat convertor.
To get the wear inhibitors back, you have to look at oils made for
engines without catalysts - race cars, motorcycles.
---
Will small engines last a long time using motor oils formulated tot he
current API spec?
Undoubtedly.

Are they ideal for the application?
No, they are designed to a different operating environment.

Is the engine manufacturers branded oil the best for their engines?
Not necessarily.


  #56   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

RB wrote:
dpb wrote:
RB wrote:
...

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.

...

But the intended point is (which my other response didn't do well)
that they _could_ have spec'ed a more stringent API classification but
didn't. It's not that there's any shortage of grades from which to
choose to meet the needs of the engines they're designing.

That they didn't indicates something...


My points were two:

Air-cooled engines can have localized hotspots that exceed the temps
found in automotive watercooled engines. Speaking only of areas touched
by the oil.


"Can", yes. Smaller and less performance driven engines less likely.
I'd also wager quite a bit that the engine manufacturers look at
temperature distributions quite a bit in the design process.

Current API specs have all but eliminated the traditional, and most
effective wear reducing additives so as not to foul your cat convertor.
To get the wear inhibitors back, you have to look at oils made for
engines without catalysts - race cars, motorcycles.


That doesn't mean that there aren't different than the traditional wear
additives currently in those oils. There are some very smart folks
doing lubrication design these days w/ far more sophisticated chemical
modeling tools, etc., than in those days of yore.

Will small engines last a long time using motor oils formulated tot he
current API spec?
Undoubtedly.

Are they ideal for the application?
No, they are designed to a different operating environment.

Is the engine manufacturers branded oil the best for their engines?
Not necessarily.


OTOH, is some other selected ad hoc oil any better? Not necessarily.

The primary disagreement I have is the conclusion drawn that OEMs simply
more or less randomly select something in making those recommendations
and that there is something somehow wrong w/ newer oils simply because
they don't necessarily use the older formulations.

Again, specialty applications are something different than the ordinary
small 4-cycle.

--
  #57   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:40:32 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:21:12 -0500, RB wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
RB wrote:
There is a product on the market now called 50FUEL
It's pure gasoline premixed to 50:1 oil/gas or 40:1
Shelf life of 2 years at least.
For things like trimmers and chainsaws, it seems to solve some starting
and run problems on my equipment. Retails for $4 - $5 /qt

Wow, $16-$20 per gallon?! That's sure paying a lot extra for the
convenience of not spending 35 seconds dumping a little bottle of
pre-measured 2-cycle oil into a small gas can.


I did the math.
I'm not driving to the gas station to fill up a 1-gallon can, nor buying
the oil separately. And I'm getting pure product with no ethanol.
My Ryobi trimmer had been giving me problems with hard starting and
running. It's much better with the first tank of this stuff.
A quart will last me about 2 months of summer usage.



I last filled my chain-saw (an old Remington) over 2 years ago with
some mixed gas drained from a friend's ultralight airplane. It is 40:1
standard air-cooled engine 2 stroke oil mixed with 100LL aviation gas.
The saw started on the second pull when I needed it today. The gas was
low in the tank so I filled it out of my plastic fuel can with more of
the same gas.
This little Remington is a VERY high compression engine - it will pull
the ctarter cord right out of your hand if you are not real careful
starting it. The cackle from the exhaust lets you know it is a pretty
high performance machine. 24" bar on 35cc, IIRC. Might be 38.

Cut 2 trees with it this afternoon..



It's a 46cc.
  #58   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:25:18 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...
For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it
has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme
pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control
reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it,
the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the
heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will
have it.
The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it. Use them
for best engine life.


BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands than an
automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't either...


Air cooled engines DO have higher lubrication requirements - and the
low TBO or lifespan of most small engines definitely affirms that.

"Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated...and approved by Briggs
& Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all Briggs &
Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified SJ/CD by the API"

The API classification is nothing different than that for most modern
automotive applications.

I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle engine have any
special requirements more stringent than the above.


About 98% of the older small engines will last a WHOLE LOT longer with
oils containing ZDDP. Any engine with flat tappets will have
significantly less cam wear with ZDDP. The only reason current auto
oil does not have it is because it can affect catalytic converter
life. Any SL or previous engine oil is acceptable for small engine
use.. Racing oil and Deisel or Multi-Fleet oil is also acceptable.They
all have about 12ppm ZDDP, compared to a maximum of 0.08%

Today's roller tapet engines are much less demanding lubrication-wise
than flat-tappet engines.

  #59   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:17:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Air cooled engines run a lot hotter. At least, that's what
my instructor said, when I took the small engine course.


Look at the manufacturer's oil spec's in comparison in terms of API
ratings...

Remember, higher API ratings do NOT translate to better lubrication.
They just meen a newer standard.SM oil is significantly inferior to SJ
for heavy duty applications, old engines, and "L" Head air cooled
engines. Don't know if any of the current crop of OHV small engines
has roller cams but I doubt it.
  #60   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:43:10 -0500, RB wrote:

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it
has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme
pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control
reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it,
the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the
heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will
have it. The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it.
Use them
for best engine life.


BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands than an
automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't either...

"Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated...and approved by Briggs
& Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all Briggs &
Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified SJ/CD by the API"

The API classification is nothing different than that for most modern
automotive applications.

I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle engine have any
special requirements more stringent than the above.


Air-cooled engines always have hotspots, no matter how well-designed.
That's why even Porsche and VW eventually gave up on air-cooled engines.

Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil.
It would be a marketing nightmare for them, and a warranty issue.
"Don't buy a mower with a B&S engine. You have to use B&S oil, and that
stuff is expensive." They know that the original owner is rarely going
to put enough hours on the engine to wear it out, and even then it won't
be blamed on anything in particular. How many people are going to run a
mower 10 years until it just won't run anymore, then realize "If only I
had used motorcyle oil I'd get another 5 years out of it." ?

As to wear additives, it's true that the best of them has been
eliminated for the sake of emissions, specifically catalytic convertors.
That's a great tip on using bike oils. I'm going to check with my Lucas
rep and see if their Motorcycle Synthetics will work in my non-catalyst
cars. I think racing oils should also still have the anti-wear zinc and
other additives.

They do. So do most deisel engine oils.


  #61   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:51:23 -0500, dpb wrote:


Yabbut the thread was for small lawnmower engines, not racing or other
extreme duty applications. There's little need nor anything to be
gained from using anything greatly exceeding the OEM's API
recommendations in normal use.

Virtually any quality automotive oil of proper viscosity rating of the
last 20-30 years will be more than adequate since the advent of the
higher-temperature running auto engines beginning in the 80s for the
emission controls. In the 50s thru say 70s the requirements were pretty
minimal and some might show some temperature breakdown in air-cooled
engines I'll agree but that's pretty much gone by the by...



You have not QUITE understood what I'm saying. The 20 and 30 year old
oil is PERFECT for lawn mowers etc. The levels of ZDDP (google it if
you don't know what I'm talking about) were very high back in the
'70s. Today's automotive engine oils have virtually NONE. ZDDP
protects sliding parts. Camshafts and camfollowers. Connecting rods on
splash lubricated engines. Ditto for main bearings. There is NO
pressurized layer of oil between the moving parts in a B&S, Kohler, or
Techumseh l-head engine. The ZDDP prevents metal-metal sliding
friction from welding the parts together.

Again, high performance bike engines, etc., etc., aren't/weren't the
subject. Using such won't hurt anything and the small quantities
required means it won't really cost a whole lot extra but it generally
isn't really going to make any difference ever be able to tell.


You can more than double the life of the average small 4 stroke engine
by using the correct oil over using current off-the-shelf automotive
oils. If you put a lot of hours on a fleet of small engines (snow
removal/lawn service or generator/construction air compressor use) the
inconvenience/expense of finding the right oil will save you BIG
BUCKS.

As noted upthread, we're running some 30-40 yr-old small engine
equipment regularly. For most of their lifetimes (until Farmland Co-op
closed their refinery and quit manufacturing it) they ran on an
all-purpose API SE/SF/SD multi-grade that included full engine warranty
(including the turbochargers) service and a drained oil sample test kit
returned at every change for all of the trucks and tractors. After that
went away and w/ the arrival of the larger crankcase capacity tractors
went to bulk JD multi-grade but not synthetic -- JD did not recommend
switching to synthetics on engines formerly not on them. Use it in
everything...


You ARE using the right oil in the small engines. JD Multi-Fleet and
SD rated oils ARE right for these engines. SM rated oil is NOT.
For anyone to recommend otherwise they obviously do not know API oil
ratings and/or small engine lub requirements.

  #62   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers

On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:49:24 -0500, dpb wrote:


Current API specs have all but eliminated the traditional, and most
effective wear reducing additives so as not to foul your cat convertor.
To get the wear inhibitors back, you have to look at oils made for
engines without catalysts - race cars, motorcycles.


That doesn't mean that there aren't different than the traditional wear
additives currently in those oils. There are some very smart folks
doing lubrication design these days w/ far more sophisticated chemical
modeling tools, etc., than in those days of yore.


There are a lot of very intelligent mechanical engineers convincing
the automotive manufacturers to go to the more complex and expensive
roller tappet camshafts to make engines last running the de-contented
engine oils mandated by the emission control requirements.

Will small engines last a long time using motor oils formulated tot he
current API spec?
Undoubtedly.

Are they ideal for the application?
No, they are designed to a different operating environment.

Is the engine manufacturers branded oil the best for their engines?
Not necessarily.


But usually. They will be providing oils with lots of ZDDP in them.
GENERALLY the small engine manufactur supplied oil is roughly
equivalent to multi-fleet or racing oil.

OTOH, is some other selected ad hoc oil any better? Not necessarily.



The primary disagreement I have is the conclusion drawn that OEMs simply
more or less randomly select something in making those recommendations
and that there is something somehow wrong w/ newer oils simply because
they don't necessarily use the older formulations.

Again, specialty applications are something different than the ordinary
small 4-cycle.


Are you a mechanic? In particular a small engine mechanic? Or a
mechanical or lubrication engineer? I'm not an engineer, but I AM a
mechanic (among other things) and have worked on a lot of small and
air-cooled engines in the last 45 years.

  #63   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Ethanol In Garden Tractors, Lawn Mowers


I am now thinking this is what happened to my weed eater. My daughter
lent it to her friend without asking me. I think they ran regular gas
through it and it has never worked right since and I have had it in the
shop more than it has run after wards.


--
Dymphna
Message origin: www.TRAVEL.com

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MTD Lawn Tractors ? Iowa883 Home Repair 16 June 29th 05 03:55 PM
Lawn tractors Jim Home Repair 6 May 15th 05 04:08 PM
Lawn Tractors/Mowers Wyatt Wright Home Ownership 56 September 15th 04 08:56 AM
Lawn Tractors/Mowers Wyatt Wright Home Repair 54 September 13th 04 10:21 PM
OT - Lawn Tractors & Small farm tractors RogerN Metalworking 25 April 16th 04 05:30 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"