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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures the http://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...JuMvNyXzfGIKA#

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

I live in st louis. apparently they did this in the all recent rain or they
failed to do the base properly.
can i ask which concrete company did this to you, for i am need a similar
project done.
btw: my opinion is to have them tear it up before the framing goes up and
redo it.
florissant mo


"fredinstl" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures the
http://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...JuMvNyXzfGIKA#

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

Also pics 8, 9, and 10 look deep as well as wide. don't mess with caulking,
you'll never be happy

"fredinstl" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures the
http://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...JuMvNyXzfGIKA#

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?


Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures the
http://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...JuMvNyXzfGIKA#

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?


All concrete cracks.

A 1/4" crack is unacceptable, in my opinion. Your pictures 8, 9, and 10
show excessive cracking. The others are what I call "hairline", and I
wouldn't worry about them. The small ones are expected.

Is there any elevation difference between the sides of the cracks? That
would mean trouble.

What kind of reinforcing did he use? I would want post-tensioned
cables, but those are rare in some parts of the country. Re-bar is the
least thing that should be in there. I've seen people do garage floors
with 4" wire mesh, but that's barely good enough for sidewalks, in my
opinion.

How thick is the slab?

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

Here in Arizona we have a state run agency called the "registrar of
contractors" they have set guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not.
Usually very cut and dry rules. Find out who your state agency is and get
them involved. Your concrete will not get better, it will get worse and
possibly effect the whole project.

cm

"fredinstl" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures the
http://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...JuMvNyXzfGIKA#

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred





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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

On Jun 9, 4:57*am, wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:36:24 -0700 (PDT), fredinstl





wrote:
Hello all,


I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.


They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- *from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide


you can see pictures thehttp://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...hkey=Gv1sRgCJu...


My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/


Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred


I would not settle for anything except complete replacement. *In one
month there should be no cracks at all, other than those hairline
cracks that all concrete gets. *What you show is caused by complete
failure of the concrete, and probably because of the base under it.
plus lack of reinforcing wire or rebar. *In a few more months you'll
have heaving and settling. *Plus, how would they install a new slab
after the garage is built? *Tell them to replace it, or contact a
lawyer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



I would push hard for replacement now too. Unfortunately, this is
one of those things where it's arguable what constitutes acceptable or
what an acceptable remedy is. But for it to be this bad after a few
weeks, clearly doesn't look good.

Like others have asked, I'd like to know how the base was prepared,
how deep it was poured, reinforced, etc. Also, besides their
proposed caulking, what exactly did they have to say about why it
happened? Did they claim it was normal?

I'd also get the building inspector to look at it and see what he has
to say. You do have a permit, right? Another thing that may help
would be if you can make a case that to replace it now will be
significantly less expensive than replacing it a year from now.
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

On Jun 8, 7:36*pm, fredinstl wrote:
Hello all,

I would appreciate if you could share with me your thoughts, regarding
a remodeling I just completed on my 1 story ranch, slab/no basement in
St Louis MO: extending a 1 car garage into a 2 car garage.

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide
4- *from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide

you can see pictures thehttp://picasaweb.google.com/fredinst...hkey=Gv1sRgCJu...

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?
thanks.
Fred


It hasnt even fully dried yet, it will get alot worse over 2-6
months.
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

On Jun 8, 7:36*pm, fredinstl wrote:

snip


Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?


Unfortunately, you probably signed a contract that did not specify the
concrete mix/type. Locally , we specify '5 1/2 bag' mix or use the
strength rating such as you see printed on the bags of Sakcrete and
the like at the box stores. A good concrete supplier will also have a
range of additives like fiber reinforcement that cost more and are
definitely worth every penny.
What you have now is pure concrete scrap, destined for the landfill.
Sit down with your legal counsel and have him get you out of the mess.
Then find a competent concrete contractor and get the quality written
into the contract. Good luck.

Joe

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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

"fredinstl" wrote

They got rid of the old slab (on the one car garage) and then poured a
new one for the 2 car garage 19' x 19'.
After less than a month, it has now 4 cracks (cracks 1 to 3 intersects
in middle):
1- from North wall going South of garage: 5' long, from 1/4" to 1/16"
wide
2- from West wall going East: 11' long, from 1/8" to 1/16" wide
3- from East wall going West: 12' long, 1/8" to 1/16" wide


These are too big. They messed up somewhere.

4- from Entrance (South) going North: 7' long, 1/32" wide


This is a normal hairline and not a big issue. YET. If it gets bigger, you
have issues.

My contractors talked to the concrete guy and here what he is
proposing:
1/ fix the cracks with caulking etc...
2/ wait one year, if it gets worse: redo the whole slab, and if it
doesn't get worse: fix the cracks as in 1/

Not sure what my expectations should be ? Should I ask to redo it
now ?


They shouldnt even be offering other than replacement. 1/4 to 1/8 inch
cracks are not normal, expecially not just in the first month.

If you seem 'apologetic' for asking for decent service, they will take you
for a ride and not offer yo what you know is your due (a properly poured and
reinforced floor). It's nice to be 'nice' but this isnt a time for it.


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:

All concrete cracks.


Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.

I recently looked at a house for sale, with a very large concrete patio.
IIRC the house was built in the 1940s or so. There isn't one crack in
the patio. Not one. Not even a tiny, hairline crack, anywhere.


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:

All concrete cracks.


Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.

I recently looked at a house for sale, with a very large concrete patio.
IIRC the house was built in the 1940s or so. There isn't one crack in
the patio. Not one. Not even a tiny, hairline crack, anywhere.


Thank you!

I was going to post something to the same effect but figured nobody would believe me.

The house I grew up in was built in the 1940's too. I lived there from 1966 to the mid 1980's.
Basement floor and garage floor were both concrete and had nothing that even resembled a crack.
Both were nice and flat and level too.

Even more amazing: when my mother sold the house in the late 1990's, the house still had its
original water heater!

Eric Law


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

On Jun 11, 7:57*am, "Eric" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message

news
In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:


All concrete cracks.


Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.


Well, I don't get it. If you concede that even properly installed
concrete usually develops some minor cracks to the point that it's so
rare to find uncracked concrete that it renders it moot, then how can
you turn around and say it's ignorant to lower your expectations?
I'd say you are just being totally unrealistic.

Say a contractor pours a basement slab and a year later, there is a
foot long hair-line crack in one corner. Is that unacceptable and
what exactly would you do?

Also, the fact that you have a 40 year old slab doesn't make the
statement that all concrete EVENTUALLY cracks false. You obviously
have a probablisitic distribution, where some cracks early and the
exceptional case may go a very long time. Yours could crack at 41
years or 100 years, but I'd say it's almost certain to crack
eventually.







I recently looked at a house for sale, with a very large concrete patio..
IIRC the house was built in the 1940s or so. There isn't one crack in
the patio. Not one. Not even a tiny, hairline crack, anywhere.


Thank you!

I was going to post something to the same effect but figured nobody would believe me.

The house I grew up in was built in the 1940's too. *I lived there from 1966 to the mid 1980's.
Basement floor and garage floor were both concrete and had nothing that even resembled a crack.
Both were nice and flat and level too.

Even more amazing: when my mother sold the house in the late 1990's, the house still had its
original water heater!

Eric Law


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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

In article
,
wrote:

On Jun 11, 7:57*am, "Eric" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message

news
In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:


All concrete cracks.


Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.


Well, I don't get it. If you concede that even properly installed
concrete usually develops some minor cracks to the point that it's so
rare to find uncracked concrete that it renders it moot, then how can
you turn around and say it's ignorant to lower your expectations?
I'd say you are just being totally unrealistic.

Say a contractor pours a basement slab and a year later, there is a
foot long hair-line crack in one corner. Is that unacceptable and
what exactly would you do?

Also, the fact that you have a 40 year old slab doesn't make the
statement that all concrete EVENTUALLY cracks false. You obviously
have a probablisitic distribution, where some cracks early and the
exceptional case may go a very long time. Yours could crack at 41
years or 100 years, but I'd say it's almost certain to crack
eventually.


It isn't 40 years old, it's 70 years old. Maybe it will crack, but I'm
not holding my breath. What I'm saying is that we're settling for ****
workmanship these days, just like we're settling for **** products.
There are very, very few craftsmen left, in any trade.

So the concrete contractors tell the customers to expect cracks, because
the contractors have forgotten how to pour concrete that doesn't crack.
The customer doesn't know any better. Pretty soon it's usenet wisdom
that "all concrete cracks." Then we get into debates about whether a
1/8" crack is OK but a 3/16" crack isn't.

If I were having a slab poured, I'd find a contractor who doesn't
believe that "all concrete cracks."

I was taking a walk through the 'hood a few months back, and I saw a
slate driveway and parking area that looked like it had been installed
by a real pro. The next time I walked by the house, the owner was
outside so I stopped to chat with him for a while. Turns out he had done
the work himself, starting with the excavation of EIGHT FEET of dirt.
There's a guy who knows how to make a base for a driveway.
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

On Jun 11, 10:35*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,





wrote:
On Jun 11, 7:57*am, "Eric" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message


news


In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:


All concrete cracks.


Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.


Well, I don't get it. * If you concede that even properly installed
concrete usually develops some minor cracks to the point that it's so
rare to find uncracked concrete that it renders it moot, then how can
you turn around and say it's ignorant to lower your expectations?
I'd say you are just being totally unrealistic.


Say a contractor pours a basement slab and a year later, there is a
foot long hair-line crack in one corner. * Is that unacceptable and
what exactly would you do?


Also, the fact that you have a 40 year old slab doesn't make the
statement that all concrete EVENTUALLY cracks false. * *You obviously
have a probablisitic distribution, where some cracks early and the
exceptional case may go a very long time. * Yours could crack at 41
years or 100 years, but I'd say it's almost certain to crack
eventually.


It isn't 40 years old, it's 70 years old. Maybe it will crack, but I'm
not holding my breath. What I'm saying is that we're settling for ****
workmanship these days, just like we're settling for **** products.
There are very, very few craftsmen left, in any trade.

So the concrete contractors tell the customers to expect cracks, because
the contractors have forgotten how to pour concrete that doesn't crack.
The customer doesn't know any better. Pretty soon it's usenet wisdom
that "all concrete cracks." Then we get into debates about whether a
1/8" crack is OK but a 3/16" crack isn't.

If I were having a slab poured, I'd find a contractor who doesn't
believe that "all concrete cracks."


Yeah, now how realistic is that? I'd like to see you get a concrete
contractor to pour a slab and put a guarantee in the contract that it
won't have a single crack. Every one I've ever talked to would make
no such guarantee and was of the opinion that concrete can develop
minor cracks, even when done correctly

I'm not saying anyone should accept poor workmanship. Only that for
a slab to develop minor cracks is not indicative of poor
workmanship. If you had a large slab poured and 2 years later it
develops a couple hairline cracks going a foot, do you actually think
you'd win if you sued the contractor?




I was taking a walk through the 'hood a few months back, and I saw a
slate driveway and parking area that looked like it had been installed
by a real pro. The next time I walked by the house, the owner was
outside so I stopped to chat with him for a while. Turns out he had done
the work himself, starting with the excavation of EIGHT FEET of dirt.
There's a guy who knows how to make a base for a driveway.



I find it hard to believe that can be true. Maybe he took out eight
yards, but I've never heard of anyone excavating 8 ft deep for a
driveway. And I'll bet it develops some cracks at some point anyway.
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Default cracks on new concrete slab ?

Eric wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article g,
"SteveBell" wrote:

All concrete cracks.

Good concrete, properly installed, doesn't crack. If that's so rare as
to be moot, then fine. But expecting cracks is lowering your
expectations to that of the ignorant and apathetic masses.

I recently looked at a house for sale, with a very large concrete patio.
IIRC the house was built in the 1940s or so. There isn't one crack in
the patio. Not one. Not even a tiny, hairline crack, anywhere.


Thank you!

I was going to post something to the same effect but figured nobody would believe me.

The house I grew up in was built in the 1940's too. I lived there from 1966 to the mid 1980's.
Basement floor and garage floor were both concrete and had nothing that even resembled a crack.
Both were nice and flat and level too.

Even more amazing: when my mother sold the house in the late 1990's, the house still had its
original water heater!

Eric Law


Perhaps those homes were built by redneck craftsmen as opposed
to Mexican construction specialists.

TDD


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wrote

Yeah, now how realistic is that? I'd like to see you get a concrete
contractor to pour a slab and put a guarantee in the contract that it
won't have a single crack. Every one I've ever talked to would make


Keep in mind you are talking to people with radically different weather and
'substrate' conditions. Some are above the frost line (more prone to need
care and get hairline cracks) or on sandy ground (same thing especially if
above frostline).

In my area, you build to 'possibly 6 inch deep frost' and if you happen to
have a really BAD winter? You might get hairline cracks.


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