How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I want to add GFCI to a pool light circuit. I traced the circuit to a
Square D XO subpanel. The XO series breaker box is obsolete and the only
breakers I can find are regular used ones (no GFCI breakers for XO). It
would be a huge job to replace the entire subpanel just for this circuit,
because it contains a maze of other old circuits. Is there any GFCI breaker
that will plug into the XO box? Is there a GFCI device that I can connect
to the junction box in the pool equipment room? Maybe a simple one switch
circuit breaker box that can connect through a knockout.. something that
would install without turning it into a huge construction job?

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

You can simply add a GFI outlet in the pool equipment room somewhere
on that circuit before the pool lighting, or use a blank GFI before
the pool lighting like this:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...minisite=10021

Both offer the same protection. You could probably mount the box on
the breaker cabinet with a knockout, or somewhere on a wall in the
equipment room.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I think that would work and I may order a Leviton 8590-RBW blank GFCI.
Should I place it after the light switch for the in-ground pool light, or
before the switch? There are 3 other patio rooms sharing this circuit for
their lights.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"iwdplz" wrote in message
...
I think that would work and I may order a Leviton 8590-RBW blank GFCI.
Should I place it after the light switch for the in-ground pool light, or
before the switch? There are 3 other patio rooms sharing this circuit for
their lights.


*That device is switch rated so you could replace your existing switch with
the GFI switch. You will need the neutral line and load in addition to the
hot wires.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

On May 30, 6:57*am, "iwdplz" wrote:
I think that would work and I may order a Leviton 8590-RBW blank GFCI.
Should I place it after the light switch for the in-ground pool light, or
before the switch? *There are 3 other patio rooms sharing this circuit for
their lights.

Ideally you want to place it downstream from the patio lights so if it
does trip, the patio lights will not go out.
As far as placing it before or after the switch for the pool lights,
it does not matter.
I was brainstorming a bit ( too early in the morning for that) and you
could actually just change out your existing pool light switch to one
of these:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...&section=11624

That would give you GFI protection as well as give you an outlet. But
you have to remember to wire so that the pool lights would be on the
"LOAD" side of the outlet.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I should add that the GFI combo switch/outlet will only work if you
have 110V coming into the switch box for your pool lights.

If you have only a switch leg ( just 2 wires in the box that are
connected to the switch) then you have to use my first suggestion.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

that's even better, I like that idea.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"Mike rock" wrote in message
...
On May 30, 6:57 am, "iwdplz" wrote:
I think that would work and I may order a Leviton 8590-RBW blank GFCI.
Should I place it after the light switch for the in-ground pool light, or
before the switch? There are 3 other patio rooms sharing this circuit for
their lights.

Ideally you want to place it downstream from the patio lights so if it
does trip, the patio lights will not go out.
As far as placing it before or after the switch for the pool lights,
it does not matter.
I was brainstorming a bit ( too early in the morning for that) and you
could actually just change out your existing pool light switch to one
of these:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...&section=11624

That would give you GFI protection as well as give you an outlet. But
you have to remember to wire so that the pool lights would be on the
"LOAD" side of the outlet.


*It has been a while since I installed a GFI combo device. I don't remember
if the switched load is GFI protected or not. It doesn't say at the link.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

*It has been a while since I installed a GFI combo device. *I don't remember
if the switched load is GFI protected or not. *It doesn't say at the link.

From what I remember, the switch is just a simple switch, it has 2
tail wires on the combo device. It has nothing to do with the GFI
outlet, so the OP would need to tie the neutral of the pool lights to
the "LOAD"side, then tie the hot of the pool lights to one tail of the
switch, then the other tail would simply go to the "LOAD" hot
terminal. Again, this is only if he has the 110V feed coming into the
box.
If the patio lights come out of the same box, he can tie those to the
"LINE" side.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

iwdplz wrote:
I want to add GFCI to a pool light circuit. I traced the circuit to a
Square D XO subpanel. The XO series breaker box is obsolete and the
only breakers I can find are regular used ones (no GFCI breakers for
XO). It would be a huge job to replace the entire subpanel just for
this circuit, because it contains a maze of other old circuits. Is
there any GFCI breaker that will plug into the XO box? Is there a GFCI
device that I can connect to the junction box in the pool equipment
room? Maybe a simple one switch circuit breaker box that can connect
through a knockout.. something that would install without turning it
into a huge construction job?

Use a GFCI receptacle as the first device in the circuit. You may also
be able to find a GFCI that fits in a single gang box that does not
contain a receptacle.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I made a drawing of the two existing switches (link below). With the setup
shown in this drawing, how would I hook up the Leviton switch/GFCI outlet
combo? One of the existing switches is for some landscape flood lights, and
the other switch is for the in-ground pool light. I'd like to swap out both
with GFCIs..

http://www.autonvs.com/images/poolswitches.jpg

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"iwdplz" wrote in message
...
I made a drawing of the two existing switches (link below). With the setup
shown in this drawing, how would I hook up the Leviton switch/GFCI outlet
combo? One of the existing switches is for some landscape flood lights,
and the other switch is for the in-ground pool light. I'd like to swap out
both with GFCIs..

http://www.autonvs.com/images/poolswitches.jpg


Nice drawing, however if it is accurate, you have no grounding conductors
and should disconnect it and replace the wiring. The landscape wiring has
the neutral cut off, so for it to work, some type of Rube Goldberg wiring
must have been done. To connect the pool light to a combo GFCI switch, You
connect the feed neutral to the "line" neutral on the device. Connect the
pool light neutral to the "load" neutral on the device. (Under the yellow
tape). Connect the pool light black to the "load" hot. Connect the feed hot
to one of the black wires on the device. Connect the other black wire on the
device to the "line" hot.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

On May 31, 3:10*am, "iwdplz" wrote:
I made a drawing of the two existing switches (link below). *With the setup
shown in this drawing, how would I hook up the Leviton switch/GFCI outlet
combo? *One of the existing switches is for some landscape flood lights, and
the other switch is for the in-ground pool light. *I'd like to swap out both
with GFCIs..

http://www.autonvs.com/images/poolswitches.jpg

Somthing does not look right for the landscape lights, There is only 1
wire going in and 1 wire going out on a different cable with no
neutral tied. Leads me to believe that the neutral comes from a
different source, maybe somewhere down the line in a junction box for
the landscape lights. In this case you can't use a GFI on the
landscape lights because it needs a hot and neutral. Unless you can
re-use that "cut" wire as the neutral, then you can use it. But lets
work on the pool lights.
It looks like the top middle cable is your 110V feed. So connect that
to the "Line" neutral and hot side of the GFI.( leave in the black
jumper going to the landscape lights)
Now connect the white wire of the pool circuit to the "LOAD" neutral
terminal. Take the black wire of the pool circuit and connect that to
one of the black switch wires of the GFCI/combo switch.
Now take the other switch wire of the GFCI combo switch and connect
that to the "LOAD" hot terminal.
Stupid question , but are these pool/landscape lights low voltage or
110V?

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

On May 31, 3:10*am, "iwdplz" wrote:
I made a drawing of the two existing switches (link below).

http://www.autonvs.com/images/poolswitches.jpg

That is a nice drawing - very nice. Where did you pick up your
drawing skill?

R

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

Indeed I was puzzled why the landscape light neutral is cut off. The cables
have bare ground wires, these appear to be all connected to the junction box
metal and not shown in the drawing.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I would've liked to put GFCIs on both, but it sounds like maybe I can just
put a GFCI on the pool light because the landscape light neutral is cut.
I'd be tempted to re-use the cut neutral but there's a possibility that this
cut wire goes to nowhere. These are 110V landscape lights. Actually they
are floodlight bulb receptacles overlooking the stone ground next to the
pool. We almost never use them.

It's great news though, that I can use this Leviton combination device for
at least the pool light.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"iwdplz" wrote in message
...
Indeed I was puzzled why the landscape light neutral is cut off. The
cables have bare ground wires, these appear to be all connected to the
junction box metal and not shown in the drawing.

That's a good thing. As Mike Rock pointed out, you won't be able to connect
the landscape lights to a GFCI without an active neutral in that box. If
it's possible, I would run a new cable from that box to the first landscape
fixture. You will also have to find and disconnect whatever is currently
being used as a neutral, or the GFCI would just trip.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

Because of the location of the landscape lights where it would be difficult
to install extra conduits underground, I suspect that this junction box is
the only neutral/ground source (not using a neutral from some other part of
the circuit). Probably the builder is using just the ground and hot wire
from this pool room switch box. If my understanding of GFCI is correct,
sounds like GFCI cannot be used for the landscape lights because there would
be no difference between neutral and ground in this case and the GFCI
neutral can never be a pure ground? I sometimes get confused on this finer
distinction because ground and neutral is bonded together at the main panel.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

iwdplz wrote:
Because of the location of the landscape lights where it would be
difficult to install extra conduits underground, I suspect that this
junction box is the only neutral/ground source (not using a neutral from
some other part of the circuit). Probably the builder is using just the
ground and hot wire from this pool room switch box. If my understanding
of GFCI is correct, sounds like GFCI cannot be used for the landscape
lights because there would be no difference between neutral and ground
in this case and the GFCI neutral can never be a pure ground? I
sometimes get confused on this finer distinction because ground and
neutral is bonded together at the main panel.

it seems like someone violated code somewhere in that setup, currents
must be balanced within a cable, summat ain't right

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

In other words, I can understand that if there is a neutral re-used from
another part of the circuit, the landscape light GFCI would trip because of
tiny differences in the neutral when other loads are applied on the circuit.
However if this part of the light circuit is using only a direct ground,
wouldn't the GFCI still function ok by detecting when the "normal ground"
becomes disconnected and replaced by an "improper ground" like a wet person?
Because there is a fluctuation in the current in the transition between the
two?

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"iwdplz" wrote in message
...
Because of the location of the landscape lights where it would be
difficult to install extra conduits underground, I suspect that this
junction box is the only neutral/ground source (not using a neutral from
some other part of the circuit). Probably the builder is using just the
ground and hot wire from this pool room switch box. If my understanding
of GFCI is correct, sounds like GFCI cannot be used for the landscape
lights because there would be no difference between neutral and ground in
this case and the GFCI neutral can never be a pure ground? I sometimes
get confused on this finer distinction because ground and neutral is
bonded together at the main panel.

The GFCI device senses the current going out on the hot leg and returning on
the neutral. If they are not equal, current is leaking to ground, and the
device cuts out. Where your landscape lights are concerned, the neutral wire
is probably broken, so to make the lights work, he just connected the bare
ground as a neutral replacement. That circuit won't work on a GFCI device as
there would always be leakage into ground on the bare wire, causing an
imbalance. It is also a potentially dangerous situation for anyone that may
touch one of these fixtures. If they happen to be touching anything that is
better grounded than the ground wire, they could become part of the circuit.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

iwdplz wrote:
In other words, I can understand that if there is a neutral re-used from
another part of the circuit, the landscape light GFCI would trip because
of tiny differences in the neutral when other loads are applied on the
circuit. However if this part of the light circuit is using only a
direct ground, wouldn't the GFCI still function ok by detecting when the
"normal ground" becomes disconnected and replaced by an "improper
ground" like a wet person? Because there is a fluctuation in the current
in the transition between the two?

no.

the GFCI must be in a box where both hot and neutral are available - it
has connections for both. The GFCI compares currents between the two
wires, and if they differ by more than 5 mA or so, it'll shut off the
power. this is why it also can't be used to replace a switch used in a
"switch leg" configuration, because there's no neutral available there.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I simply pulled the old non-gfci circuit that ran to my detached garage out
of the panel, then ran a short line to a surface mounted box a few feet from
the panel with a gfci outlet. I then pulled the garage line into that so now
I have a much needed outlet near my panel and the garage and underground
line leading out to it is protected.

Did the same for an old bathroom circuit that was not protected - but in
this case I was able to put the gfci outlet in an other area of the basement
where there was no outlet so now I have one and the bath is protected.
"iwdplz" wrote in message
...
I want to add GFCI to a pool light circuit. I traced the circuit to a
Square D XO subpanel. The XO series breaker box is obsolete and the only
breakers I can find are regular used ones (no GFCI breakers for XO). It
would be a huge job to replace the entire subpanel just for this circuit,
because it contains a maze of other old circuits. Is there any GFCI
breaker that will plug into the XO box? Is there a GFCI device that I can
connect to the junction box in the pool equipment room? Maybe a simple one
switch circuit breaker box that can connect through a knockout.. something
that would install without turning it into a huge construction job?

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"RBM" wrote in message
...
To connect the pool light to a combo GFCI switch, You connect the feed
neutral to the "line" neutral on the device. Connect the pool light
neutral to the "load" neutral on the device. (Under the yellow tape).
Connect the pool light black to the "load" hot. Connect the feed hot to
one of the black wires on the device. Connect the other black wire on the
device to the "line" hot.

That wiring makes sense and I tried it just now, but the GFCI trips
immediately so the pool light never turns on. I also noticed that the
landscape light doesn't turn on anymore - so I jumpered the feed neutral to
the pool light neutral like it was before, and now landscape light turns on
ok via the other switch. So the pool light and landscape light must be
using the same neutral. I am puzzled why the GFCI is tripping and how I
should wire it given this new info..

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

Update:

When I add the landscape light to the Load terminal in the GFCI combo device
(instead of a separate switch), it works. Now the GFCI works for both the
pool light and landscape lights. Except now I don't have independent
control over them. That's fine because the landscape lights are next to the
pool anyway. So this way I have GFCI protection for ALL of the outdoor
lights near the pool.

Why does this GFCI tripping happen with a separate landscape light switch?
My guess is that by turning on the landscape switch, it causes the current
to drop unevenly in the circuit legs and the GFCI senses a slight mismatch.
So by combining them together the current drop is evenly matched.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

"Mike rock" wrote in message
so the OP would need to tie the neutral of the pool lights to
the "LOAD"side, then tie the hot of the pool lights to one tail of the
switch, then the other tail would simply go to the "LOAD" hot
terminal. Again, this is only if he has the 110V feed coming into the
box. If the patio lights come out of the same box, he can tie those to the
"LINE" side.

This is the best/correct hookup because now I can use the outlet regardless
whether the switch for the lights is turned on or off.

How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?
 

I think this is what happened:

"Multiwire circuits have two or more ungrounded conductors sharing a common
neutral, as in a 120/240V, single-phase circuit or a 208Y/120V, 3-phase
circuit."

"GFCI receptacles can be used on multiwire circuits, but they must be wired
such that the neutral on the load side of the GFCI is not shared by two
ungrounded conductors. Failure to observe this requirement will result in a
differential current any time a load served by an ungrounded conductor not
connected to the GFCI is energized, immediately tripping the GFCI."

From http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_think_gfci/