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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?
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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On 05/25/09 12:45 pm Si wrote:

we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


There may not be a ground wire to which to connect the ground pin.

Perce

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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

Si wrote in news:1bd3d407-0347-4775-9784-
:

we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets?


Yes.

is there a problem with doing that?


Yes.

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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home


"Si" wrote in message
...
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


If your Victorian home has Victorian wiring, there may be a problem. As your
home probably predated electricity, you most likely have a variety of wiring
types in it. For you to use a grounded outlet, you need to have a type of
wiring that either carries a grounding conductor, or is in a type of
metallic covering. You can also install grounding conductors to existing
outlets, however it's probably more cost effective to just run new cables,
especially if these outlets are in a kitchen


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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 25, 9:45*am, Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


Short answers; yes & yes

Yes, you can change out your 2 wire receptacle to 3 wire receptacles.

But unless there is a grounding conductor present in the boxes or the
boxes are themselves grounded, the new 3 wire receptacles will be
ungrounded. This will be misleading; looking like a grounded
receptacle but not really being one.

Re-wiring is an option but a fair amount of work.

One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of
the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground";
which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about
current code.


cheers
Bob





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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. If they are, no
problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the
ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box.
If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable)
then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first
recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI
protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in
which you want to use a 3-prong recep. Code allows you to do this in a
retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be
part of the cable or in the same conduit as the H & N conductors.

good luck

nate

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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient.

Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an
opportunity to make it safer.

Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least
work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords.


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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 25, 4:58�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient.

Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an
opportunity to make it safer.

Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least
work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords.


If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you decide
to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner companies will no
longer write new policies for thios obsolete wiring

Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!!

If the device plugged in gets a hot to case, you can get killed.

I service machines for a living where wires hit case and properly
grounded trip breaker./

sorry only idiots cut off ground pins. occasionally it thins the herd,
but you could kill a visiting child or loved one
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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On 5/25/2009 9:45 AM Si spake thus:

we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


Lots of answers already, so hopefully this won't get lost in all the noise.

Unless it's been rewired to modern standards, chances are all your
wiring in your house is the original 2-wire stuff, meaning there's no
ground conductor.

So the answer is you *shouldn't* install grounded outlets if there's no
ground conductor. It's kind of deceptive, which is why the code (the
NEC, National Electrical Code) frowns on it.

You don't really need the ground conductor anyhow. If you have grounded
(3-pin) plugs, just get a bunch of grounded adapters.

The alternative is to completely rewire your house, including a new
service panel (breaker panel). Quite expen$ive as you can imagine. No,
there's no way to just add a ground wire (and if there is, you shouldn't
do it anyhow).


--
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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home


"One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of
the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground";
which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about
current code."


Amen!

ASSuming the GFCI functions, you get more protection against shock with the
GFCI without ground than from a properly grounded outlet.

The "shock" comes from the person being grounded by some other means (e.g.:
by placing a hand on a radiator or sitting in a bath tub) and then touching
a metal object that has been entergized by a cross between "frame" and the
hot wire.

What the proper ground "buys" you is that the GFCI will 'trip' as soon as
you plug in the faulty 3 pin appliance. Without the ground, the GFCI will
only trip when your soft body makes a connection between frame and "real"
ground.

A proper ground without the GFCI should trip the breaker if there is a fault
in th 3 pin appliance.




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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 25, 8:14�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
bob haller wrote:

If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you decide
to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner companies will no
longer write new policies for thios obsolete wiring


Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!!


I agree. From 1897 until about 1955, when there were only two wires and no
grounds anywhere, as many as eight people were electrocuted in the U.S. Why
take a chance?


please post a cite for this, before gFCIs bathroom electrocutions were
pretty common...

and no one addressed the homeowners insurance hassle, espically at
home resale time.

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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

bob haller wrote:
On May 25, 8:14?pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
bob haller wrote:

If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you
decide to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner
companies will no longer write new policies for thios obsolete
wiring


Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!!


I agree. From 1897 until about 1955, when there were only two wires
and no grounds anywhere, as many as eight people were electrocuted
in the U.S. Why take a chance?


please post a cite for this, before gFCIs bathroom electrocutions were
pretty common...



You may use my post as an authoritative source. Feel free to quote it often.



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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 26, 11:20�am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 16:42:52 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. �If they are, no
problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the
ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box.
If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable)
then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first
recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI
protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in
which you want to use a 3-prong recep. � Code allows you to do this in a
retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be


So, what you're saying is to run a separate green or bare wire from
the service panel to each outlet? �I was not aware this was legal in
any situations, even though I tend to question why not, because a
ground is a ground, whether the ground wire is part of the cable or
next to it.

Personally, I'd rather add a separate wire as a ground, than to
install grounded outlets without a ground. �May not be code, but it IS
safe, whereas using grounded outlets without a ground wire is NOT
safe.



part of the cable or in the same conduit as the H & N conductors.


good luck


nate- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


The following is UNSAFE, and can kill, espically kids and those not
healthy like the elderly....

Cutting ground pins off plugs

Installing 3 prong outlets without a ground

using 3 rong adapters that arent grounded

Installing 3 prong outlets and wiring the ground to a neutral

attempting to defeat grounding in any way

sorry anyone who advises otherwise is a idiot, its one thing for them
to put their lives at risk and far worse to put others at risk.

old wiring like K&T is often overloaded with 30 amp fuses where 15 amp
belong, and given their age frequently have less than good workmanship
on circuit additions etc. often older homes only have one outlet per
room which leads top trip and fire hazards with extension cords all
over, and sometimes under the carpet being walked on.

hey how iold is your car? 5 years perhaps 10?

your home is probably the biggest investment in your lifetime, doesnt
it deserve a rewire in 100 years?

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On May 26, 7:18*am, "John Gilmer" wrote:
"One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of
the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground";
which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about
current code."

Amen!

ASSuming the GFCI functions, you get more protection against shock with the
GFCI without ground than from a properly grounded outlet.

The "shock" comes from the person being grounded by some other means (e.g..:
by placing a hand on a radiator or sitting in a bath tub) and then touching
a metal object that has been entergized by a cross between "frame" and the
hot wire.

What the proper ground "buys" you is that the GFCI will 'trip' as soon as
you plug in the faulty 3 pin appliance. * Without the ground, the GFCI will
only trip when your soft body makes a connection between frame and "real"
ground.

A proper ground without the GFCI should trip the breaker if there is a fault
in th 3 pin appliance.


Yes, this is the best approach, short of rewiring the house.

Some practical advice: your old outlets may be in very small boxes, or
no boxes at all. Pull one or two (power off at the panel, and tested
with a lamp!) to find out.

If the former, shop around for the smallest-bodied gfi receptacles you
can find; avoid the ones with hardwired pigtails because you won't
have room for the wirenuts. Look for ones which accept the wires into
holes in the back, with screws that clam them down.

If you have no boxes, use "old work" boxes which can be inserted into
the wall and clamp against the back of the wall. These come in a
couple of styles, basically some clamp on the sides and some on the
top and bottom. Some of your outlet locations may allow for only one
of these; for instance, if they're hard against a stud on one side,
you'll need the kind that clamp top and bottom. And you'll need to
enlarge the holes for these, whether the outlets are in the baseboards
(very common in old homes) or plaster walls. This will be the most
annoying part of the job, and to save you another post, no, there is
no secret *good* way to cut lath and plaster, just work away with
whatever saw, knife or chisel you have at hand. Since your old wires
will be frustratingly short, enlarge the hole in the direction from
which the wires come, to give yourself an extra half inch of wires in
the box.

It's true in theory that a gfi can protect downstream outlets, however
(a) you need to understand which outlets are downstream of which
others, and this can be massively confusing in an old home (b) you'll
still want to replace the old outlets with 3-prong ones, so you're not
saving any labour, and (c) any nuisance trip will affect the whole
circuit. I'd err on the side of putting a cfi in each location.

K&T is usually not marked for hot vs neutral, so get a little three-
lamp tester and be prepared to reverse the connections in about half
the ones you've wired. Also invest upfront in a good pair of long-
nosed pliers, a stubby screwdriver appropriate to the screws on the
gfi (probably philips, maybe robertson in Canada), a flashlight, and a
low comfortable stool, unless you're a yoga master.

Chip C
Toronto
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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 26, 12:58�pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,





wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:58:57 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:


Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?


Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient..


Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an
opportunity to make it safer.


Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least
work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords.


Only idiots cut off the ground pins on plugs !!!!


True. Cutting it off takes five seconds. I can bust it out in two
seconds with a pair of channel lock pliers. And, no sharp stub left that
could cut someone.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire
touching the case, shock will result.

guess the electrical code is meaningless for you?

a nice to have really not necessary?

geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything?
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bob haller wrote:
Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more
convenient.


Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have
an opportunity to make it safer.


Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your
appliances. Least work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords.


Only idiots cut off the ground pins on plugs !!!!


True. Cutting it off takes five seconds. I can bust it out in two
seconds with a pair of channel lock pliers. And, no sharp stub left
that could cut someone.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire
touching the case, shock will result.

guess the electrical code is meaningless for you?

a nice to have really not necessary?

geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything?


Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll
let go.

As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil,
water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.


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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 16:42:52 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?

depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. If they are, no
problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the
ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box.
If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable)
then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first
recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI
protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in
which you want to use a 3-prong recep. Code allows you to do this in a
retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be


So, what you're saying is to run a separate green or bare wire from
the service panel to each outlet? I was not aware this was legal in
any situations, even though I tend to question why not, because a
ground is a ground, whether the ground wire is part of the cable or
next to it.

Personally, I'd rather add a separate wire as a ground, than to
install grounded outlets without a ground. May not be code, but it IS
safe, whereas using grounded outlets without a ground wire is NOT
safe.


That's exactly what I'm saying to do. Better check the latest code to
make sure that this is still acceptable, but in the 02 (I think?)
version - last one I looked at anyway - it was acceptable to ground a
receptacle to an "available point on the grounding system" (I believe I
got the wording correct) but only in a situation like you describe, NOT
in new construction. In new construction it must be part of the cable,
or if you're using conduit, in the same conduit as the other wires.

Technically this would mean that in your situation you could use a water
pipe, etc. but in reality I think the preferred method would be to pull
it all the way back to the neutral bus in your breaker panel, less
chance of something going wrong that way (e.g. someone comes in and
replaces a run of copper pipe with PVC, whoops, suddenly your ground no
longer exists)

nate

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Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll
let go.


So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner
didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a
visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day
may be far different



As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil,
water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.-


So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems
like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver?

Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc.

While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely
your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years
till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get
scrapped.........

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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

bob haller wrote:
Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll
let go.


So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner
didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a
visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day
may be far different


As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil,
water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.-


So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems
like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver?

Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc.

While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely
your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years
till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get
scrapped.........

Try 45 years ago, to get earlier than seatbelts and modern brakes. 30
years ago would be a 1978-79 car, and most modern safety equipment came
along in the mid to late 60s.

I'd love to have my 1978 car back again. Beats the crap out of anything
I've had since then. Had most of the modern safety features- disc
brakes, R&P steering, good radial tires, modern padded interior, etc.
And was a damn sight more fun to drive with that 5-liter v8 and RWD. I
hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw
them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it
melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^(

--
aem sends...


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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

On May 26, 10:24�pm, aemeijers wrote:
bob haller wrote:
Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll
let go.


So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner
didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a
visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day
may be far different


As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil,
water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.-


So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems
like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver?


Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc.


While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely
your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years
till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get
scrapped.........


Try 45 years ago, to get earlier than seatbelts and modern brakes. 30
years ago would be a 1978-79 car, and most modern safety equipment came
along in the mid to late 60s.

I'd love to have my 1978 car back again. Beats the crap out of anything
I've had since then. Had most of the modern safety features- disc
brakes, R&P steering, good radial tires, modern padded interior, etc.
And was a damn sight more fun to drive with that 5-liter v8 and RWD. I
hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw
them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it
melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^(

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


newer vehicles are more corrosion resistant, often have better gas
mileage and pollute less, plus they all have air bags something your
1978 didnt. plus new cars crush in accidents to protect the occupants

this is like comparing K&T to current modern wiring. the modern stuff
tends to be much safer.

just having all connections in boxes help prevent fires. when
connections overheat.

K&T connections buried in walls where it cant be inspected.

and K&T designed for free air, so you shouldnt insulate around or near
it, who wants uninsulated honmes today?

finally NEVER GROUND TO A WATER PIPE this creates a shock hazard
espically in a older home that may not have unified grounds
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Default switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home

Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 16:42:52 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch
them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that?
depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. If they are, no
problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire
the ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the
box. If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM
cable) then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the
first recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker
reading "GFCI protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire
to each box in which you want to use a 3-prong recep. Code allows
you to do this in a retrofit type situation; for new construction the
ground wire must be


So, what you're saying is to run a separate green or bare wire from
the service panel to each outlet? I was not aware this was legal in
any situations, even though I tend to question why not, because a
ground is a ground, whether the ground wire is part of the cable or
next to it.

Personally, I'd rather add a separate wire as a ground, than to
install grounded outlets without a ground. May not be code, but it IS
safe, whereas using grounded outlets without a ground wire is NOT
safe.


That's exactly what I'm saying to do. Better check the latest code to
make sure that this is still acceptable, but in the 02 (I think?)
version - last one I looked at anyway - it was acceptable to ground a
receptacle to an "available point on the grounding system" (I believe I
got the wording correct) but only in a situation like you describe, NOT
in new construction. In new construction it must be part of the cable,
or if you're using conduit, in the same conduit as the other wires.

Technically this would mean that in your situation you could use a water
pipe, etc. but in reality I think the preferred method would be to pull
it all the way back to the neutral bus in your breaker panel, less
chance of something going wrong that way (e.g. someone comes in and
replaces a run of copper pipe with PVC, whoops, suddenly your ground no
longer exists)

nate


It is still permitted to run a separate ground wire when you have no
ground in the supply wiring. Ground wires from multiple outlets could be
combined. The ground wire used to be allowed to connect to any water
pipe, but not now (for new connections), probably for the reasons you
stated. The ground wire now is to go to the ground bar in the panel
supplying the outlet, or anywhere on the grounding electrode system.
That includes the heavy "grounding electrode conductor" or the first 5
feet of water pipe inside the building (the grounding electrode
conductor now has to connect to the same 5 foot section if the water
supply is at least 10 feet metal in the ground).

Determining which wire is "hot" is most easily done with a "non-contact
voltage detector". A 2 wire *neon* test light can also be used - touch
one wire to the wire being tested and touch the other test lite wire
with a finger. The neon light will light very dimly for the "hot" wire.
Only use a *neon* test light for this.

--
bud--

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In article
,
bob haller wrote:



yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire
touching the case, shock will result.


The odds of that are virtually astronomical. Please look around your
house and tell me how many of your electrical gadgets are cased with
metal. Even if they were, there's little provocation for wires to jump
off and touch the case.

Anyway, suppose I get a shock? I've been shocked before. Let's see,
about 20 times with 120 VAC, 2 or 3 with 240 VAC, 5 or 6 times with
35,000 volts in televisions, and another 5 or 6 with 450 volts of DC in
tube amplifiers. Those last ones were the worst, by far. Really knock
your ass across the room.

Whenever I get a shock, it reminds me to be more careful. That's a good
thing.


guess the electrical code is meaningless for you?


I believe it contains good suggestions. Similar in importance to stop
signs, and speed limits.


a nice to have really not necessary?


Yep. A replacement for common sense. I prefer the latter.


geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything?


I just turned 200k on my 98 avalon. Runs like brand new. WTF does that
have to do with a superstitious belief in grounding?
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In article ,
aemeijers wrote:


I
hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw
them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it
melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^(


I'd prefer Cadillac's 1000 hp V16. But I guess they've scrapped
production plans. Too bad, it has nice lines.
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obviously ther NEC and UL approval are unnecessary.

you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved.......

I feel sorry for anyone who buys a home from one of these incompetents
who feel ground pins should be broken off for convenience



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Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone.
espically a child.

so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin
cut off and dies.

wonder if your homeowners insurance would disown you?

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bob haller wrote:
Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone.
espically a child.

so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin
cut off and dies.


Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a
lad.

Besides, a goodly percentage of stuff has double insulation and NO grounding
plug.

If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral,
metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than
one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids
who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm.

Those are good odds for any Greek.


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On May 27, 10:06�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
bob haller wrote:
Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone.
espically a child.


so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin
cut off and dies.


Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a
lad.

Besides, a goodly percentage of stuff has double insulation and NO grounding
plug.

If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral,
metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than
one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids
who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm.

Those are good odds for any Greek.


I now belie you are pulling my chain

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In article
,
bob haller wrote:


you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved...


I know how many home fires have been saved by grounding. Zero. Now it's
your turn. How many lives have been saved? There's the rub, huh? No one
knows. But I bet it's more than, let's say, six. (I think I remember
reading an authoritative quote from Hey Bub whose meticulous research
pegged it at eight. But of course, his political views don't match my
own, so I don't ascribe too much reliability to him.)
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On May 28, 12:55�am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
�bob haller wrote:



you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved...


by UL, NEC and proper grounding regulations



I know how many home fires have been saved by grounding. Zero. Now it's
your turn. How many lives have been saved? There's the rub, huh? No one
knows. But I bet it's more than, let's say, six. (I think I remember
reading an authoritative quote from Hey Bub whose meticulous research
pegged it at eight. But of course, his political views don't match my
own, so I don't ascribe too much reliability to him.)



you post some cites on all this and we can crunch the numbers, perhaps
your opinion is clouded by too many shocks over the years?

I helped some friends who ended up homeless after their antique lamp
caused a home fire. they moved in with us having no other place to
go.

GFCIs certinally save lives


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"HeyBub" wrote:

Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a
lad.


Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, I
figure I didn't live past 25.

I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. I pulled a plug from the wall
by it's cord. I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the
shock. I remember the exact location in the house. We moved out of the that
house when I was four, so I was probably three.

If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral,
metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than
one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids
who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm.

Those are good odds for any Greek.


According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were 2,397,615
deaths from all causes in 2004.

According to http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with
consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities.

While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded,
un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that
can kill you.

-- Doug
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On May 28, 7:45�pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote:
Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a
lad.


Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, �I
figure I didn't live past 25.

I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. �I pulled a plug from the wall
by it's cord. �I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the
shock. I remember the exact location in the house. �We moved out of the that
house when I was four, so I was probably three.

If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral,
metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than
one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids
who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm..


Those are good odds for any Greek.


According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615
deaths from all causes in 2004. �

According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions..pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with
consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. �

While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded,
un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that
can kill you.

-- Doug


if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor
somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy
holder?

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On May 28, 7:45�pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote:
Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a
lad.


Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, �I
figure I didn't live past 25.

I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. �I pulled a plug from the wall
by it's cord. �I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the
shock. I remember the exact location in the house. �We moved out of the that
house when I was four, so I was probably three.

If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral,
metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than
one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids
who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm..


Those are good odds for any Greek.


According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615
deaths from all causes in 2004. �

According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions..pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with
consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. �

While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded,
un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that
can kill you.

-- Doug


Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have
been added over the years?

grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to
carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc
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In article ,
Douglas Johnson wrote:

According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were 2,397,615
deaths from all causes in 2004.

According to http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with
consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities.

While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded,
un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that
can kill you.

-- Doug


If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground
plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a
telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions
involving consumer products:

-----------------

The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions
over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large Appliances," "Lighting
Equipment," and "Power Tools."

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances
was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the
appliance.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting equipment
was while the consumer was installing the equipment.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was
the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the consumer
was using the power tool.

---------------------

I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a ground
pin.
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Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Douglas Johnson wrote:

According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were
2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004.

According to
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated
with consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000
fatalities.

While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in
ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down
the list of things that can kill you.

-- Doug


If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground
plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a
telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions
involving consumer products:

-----------------

The three most common product categories associated with
electrocutions over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large
Appliances," "Lighting Equipment," and "Power Tools."

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances
was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the
appliance.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting
equipment was while the consumer was installing the equipment.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was
the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the
consumer was using the power tool.

---------------------

I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a
ground pin.


Yeah, but somewhere there's a visiting child licking a defective,
ungrounded, metal-covered toaster, energized by a swapped hot/neutral outlet
while standing barefoot in a puddle on a concrete slab. Or might be.

If it saves one innocent child's life...




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On May 28, 10:35�pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
�Douglas Johnson wrote:

According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615
deaths from all causes in 2004. �


According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions.pdf
there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with
consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities.. �


While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded,
un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that
can kill you.


-- Doug


If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground
plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a
telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions
involving consumer products:

-----------------

The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions
over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large Appliances," "Lighting
Equipment," and "Power Tools."

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances
was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the
appliance.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting equipment
was while the consumer was installing the equipment.

The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was
the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the consumer
was using the power tool.

---------------------

I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a ground
pin.


perhaps lack of proper ground person died isnt common because most
have common sense and leave ground pins intact?
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bob haller wrote:


if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor
somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy
holder?


Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts
and goblins?

This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. A year or
so ago, I tried to see if it was real. It was a slightly different context.
"Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring
and the house burns down."

I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. The only thing that
might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing
the fire. I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. Both immediately
said "They'll pay." But don't complain to me if your company doesn't.

I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same
cause. More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury
from your screw up. So I don't do those kind of things.

bob haller wrote:

Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have
been added over the years?

grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to
carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc


There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is
kind of tough to prove. Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a
someone from a shock.

But here is one interesting statistic. There is an excellent book about Chicago
in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". It mentions that there were an
average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. Not too
surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes...

According to http://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/ there were a
total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. So, yeah. That stuff helps.

But let's keep it in scale. If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and
controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your
troubles.

-- Doug
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It is permissable to install a three prong recpticle with no ground wire IF
the circuit was GFI protected. You must label each GFI protected recpticle
and any down line recpticles, "no equipment ground". Several "no equipment
ground" stickers usually come with GFI recpticles.

On Fri, 29 May 2009 13:20:26 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

bob haller wrote:


if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor
somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy
holder?


Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts
and goblins?

This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. A year or
so ago, I tried to see if it was real. It was a slightly different context.
"Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring
and the house burns down."

I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. The only thing that
might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing
the fire. I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. Both immediately
said "They'll pay." But don't complain to me if your company doesn't.

I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same
cause. More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury
from your screw up. So I don't do those kind of things.

bob haller wrote:

Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have
been added over the years?

grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to
carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc


There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is
kind of tough to prove. Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a
someone from a shock.

But here is one interesting statistic. There is an excellent book about Chicago
in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". It mentions that there were an
average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. Not too
surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes...

According to http://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/ there were a
total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. So, yeah. That stuff helps.

But let's keep it in scale. If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and
controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your
troubles.

-- Doug


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On May 29, 3:41�pm, wrote:
It is permissable to install a three prong recpticle with no ground wire IF
the circuit was GFI protected. �You must label each GFI protected recpticle
and any down line recpticles, "no equipment ground". �Several "no equipment
ground" stickers usually come with GFI recpticles. �

On Fri, 29 May 2009 13:20:26 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:



bob haller wrote:


if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor
somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy
holder?


Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts
and goblins? �


This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. �A year or
so ago, I tried to see if it was real. �It was a slightly different context.
"Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring
and the house burns down."


I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. �The only thing that
might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing
the fire. �I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. �Both immediately
said "They'll pay." �But don't complain to me if your company doesn't.


I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same
cause. �More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury
from your screw up. �So I don't do those kind of things.


bob haller wrote:


Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have
been added over the years?


grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to
carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc


There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is
kind of tough to prove. �Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a
someone from a shock.


But here is one interesting statistic. �There is an excellent book about Chicago
in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". �It mentions that there were an
average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. �Not too
surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes...


According tohttp://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/�there were a
total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. �So, yeah. �That stuff helps.


But let's keep it in scale. �If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and
controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your
troubles.


-- Doug- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


my issue was the moron who said just remove the ground pins from plugs
it will be fine......
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bob haller wrote:

my issue was the moron who said just remove the ground pins from plugs
it will be fine......


You are aware, are you not, that:

A. Grounding plugs/outlets are of somewhat recent vintage.
B. All old electrical appliances and many new appliance do not HAVE
grounding connections.
C. Outlets/plugs in Britain and other parts of the world do not accommodate
grounding connectors (i.e., they are of the two-pin variety).

On the other hand, grenades come with only two safety devices: A safety pin
and a safety handle. These are almost always adequate to permit safe
handling. Grenades could be distributed in a locked box with the key kept by
the company sergeant in a safe whose combination is known only to the
company clerk, but the layering-on of additional safety regimes would
prevent their timely and effective use when a crazed virgin-seeker is about
to jump in your foxhole.

When presented with a three-prong toaster, a two-prong outlet, and an urgent
need for a PopTart, I know what I'm gonna do!


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