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#1
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our
victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? |
#2
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On 05/25/09 12:45 pm Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? There may not be a ground wire to which to connect the ground pin. Perce |
#3
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
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#4
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
"Si" wrote in message ... we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? If your Victorian home has Victorian wiring, there may be a problem. As your home probably predated electricity, you most likely have a variety of wiring types in it. For you to use a grounded outlet, you need to have a type of wiring that either carries a grounding conductor, or is in a type of metallic covering. You can also install grounding conductors to existing outlets, however it's probably more cost effective to just run new cables, especially if these outlets are in a kitchen |
#5
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 25, 9:45*am, Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? Short answers; yes & yes Yes, you can change out your 2 wire receptacle to 3 wire receptacles. But unless there is a grounding conductor present in the boxes or the boxes are themselves grounded, the new 3 wire receptacles will be ungrounded. This will be misleading; looking like a grounded receptacle but not really being one. Re-wiring is an option but a fair amount of work. One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground"; which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about current code. cheers Bob |
#6
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. If they are, no problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box. If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable) then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in which you want to use a 3-prong recep. Code allows you to do this in a retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be part of the cable or in the same conduit as the H & N conductors. good luck nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#7
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Si wrote:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient. Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an opportunity to make it safer. Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords. |
#8
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 25, 4:58�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Si wrote: we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient. Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an opportunity to make it safer. Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords. If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you decide to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner companies will no longer write new policies for thios obsolete wiring Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!! If the device plugged in gets a hot to case, you can get killed. I service machines for a living where wires hit case and properly grounded trip breaker./ sorry only idiots cut off ground pins. occasionally it thins the herd, but you could kill a visiting child or loved one |
#9
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On 5/25/2009 9:45 AM Si spake thus:
we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? Lots of answers already, so hopefully this won't get lost in all the noise. Unless it's been rewired to modern standards, chances are all your wiring in your house is the original 2-wire stuff, meaning there's no ground conductor. So the answer is you *shouldn't* install grounded outlets if there's no ground conductor. It's kind of deceptive, which is why the code (the NEC, National Electrical Code) frowns on it. You don't really need the ground conductor anyhow. If you have grounded (3-pin) plugs, just get a bunch of grounded adapters. The alternative is to completely rewire your house, including a new service panel (breaker panel). Quite expen$ive as you can imagine. No, there's no way to just add a ground wire (and if there is, you shouldn't do it anyhow). -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#10
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
"One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground"; which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about current code." Amen! ASSuming the GFCI functions, you get more protection against shock with the GFCI without ground than from a properly grounded outlet. The "shock" comes from the person being grounded by some other means (e.g.: by placing a hand on a radiator or sitting in a bath tub) and then touching a metal object that has been entergized by a cross between "frame" and the hot wire. What the proper ground "buys" you is that the GFCI will 'trip' as soon as you plug in the faulty 3 pin appliance. Without the ground, the GFCI will only trip when your soft body makes a connection between frame and "real" ground. A proper ground without the GFCI should trip the breaker if there is a fault in th 3 pin appliance. |
#11
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 25, 8:14�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
bob haller wrote: If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you decide to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner companies will no longer write new policies for thios obsolete wiring Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!! I agree. From 1897 until about 1955, when there were only two wires and no grounds anywhere, as many as eight people were electrocuted in the U.S. Why take a chance? please post a cite for this, before gFCIs bathroom electrocutions were pretty common... and no one addressed the homeowners insurance hassle, espically at home resale time. |
#12
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
On May 25, 8:14?pm, "HeyBub" wrote: bob haller wrote: If the wiring is K&T knob and tube its time to rewire. when you decide to sell K&T will stop the sale, since most homeowner companies will no longer write new policies for thios obsolete wiring Lack of working grounds can be a MAJOR LETHAL SAFETY HAZARD!! I agree. From 1897 until about 1955, when there were only two wires and no grounds anywhere, as many as eight people were electrocuted in the U.S. Why take a chance? please post a cite for this, before gFCIs bathroom electrocutions were pretty common... You may use my post as an authoritative source. Feel free to quote it often. |
#13
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 26, 11:20�am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 16:42:52 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote: Si wrote: we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. �If they are, no problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box. If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable) then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in which you want to use a 3-prong recep. � Code allows you to do this in a retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be So, what you're saying is to run a separate green or bare wire from the service panel to each outlet? �I was not aware this was legal in any situations, even though I tend to question why not, because a ground is a ground, whether the ground wire is part of the cable or next to it. Personally, I'd rather add a separate wire as a ground, than to install grounded outlets without a ground. �May not be code, but it IS safe, whereas using grounded outlets without a ground wire is NOT safe. part of the cable or in the same conduit as the H & N conductors. good luck nate- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The following is UNSAFE, and can kill, espically kids and those not healthy like the elderly.... Cutting ground pins off plugs Installing 3 prong outlets without a ground using 3 rong adapters that arent grounded Installing 3 prong outlets and wiring the ground to a neutral attempting to defeat grounding in any way sorry anyone who advises otherwise is a idiot, its one thing for them to put their lives at risk and far worse to put others at risk. old wiring like K&T is often overloaded with 30 amp fuses where 15 amp belong, and given their age frequently have less than good workmanship on circuit additions etc. often older homes only have one outlet per room which leads top trip and fire hazards with extension cords all over, and sometimes under the carpet being walked on. hey how iold is your car? 5 years perhaps 10? your home is probably the biggest investment in your lifetime, doesnt it deserve a rewire in 100 years? |
#14
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 26, 7:18*am, "John Gilmer" wrote:
"One way to improve the safety of the installation but at a fraction of the effort is to install GFI's and label them "no equipment ground"; which was allowable under previous codes but I'm not sure about current code." Amen! ASSuming the GFCI functions, you get more protection against shock with the GFCI without ground than from a properly grounded outlet. The "shock" comes from the person being grounded by some other means (e.g..: by placing a hand on a radiator or sitting in a bath tub) and then touching a metal object that has been entergized by a cross between "frame" and the hot wire. What the proper ground "buys" you is that the GFCI will 'trip' as soon as you plug in the faulty 3 pin appliance. * Without the ground, the GFCI will only trip when your soft body makes a connection between frame and "real" ground. A proper ground without the GFCI should trip the breaker if there is a fault in th 3 pin appliance. Yes, this is the best approach, short of rewiring the house. Some practical advice: your old outlets may be in very small boxes, or no boxes at all. Pull one or two (power off at the panel, and tested with a lamp!) to find out. If the former, shop around for the smallest-bodied gfi receptacles you can find; avoid the ones with hardwired pigtails because you won't have room for the wirenuts. Look for ones which accept the wires into holes in the back, with screws that clam them down. If you have no boxes, use "old work" boxes which can be inserted into the wall and clamp against the back of the wall. These come in a couple of styles, basically some clamp on the sides and some on the top and bottom. Some of your outlet locations may allow for only one of these; for instance, if they're hard against a stud on one side, you'll need the kind that clamp top and bottom. And you'll need to enlarge the holes for these, whether the outlets are in the baseboards (very common in old homes) or plaster walls. This will be the most annoying part of the job, and to save you another post, no, there is no secret *good* way to cut lath and plaster, just work away with whatever saw, knife or chisel you have at hand. Since your old wires will be frustratingly short, enlarge the hole in the direction from which the wires come, to give yourself an extra half inch of wires in the box. It's true in theory that a gfi can protect downstream outlets, however (a) you need to understand which outlets are downstream of which others, and this can be massively confusing in an old home (b) you'll still want to replace the old outlets with 3-prong ones, so you're not saving any labour, and (c) any nuisance trip will affect the whole circuit. I'd err on the side of putting a cfi in each location. K&T is usually not marked for hot vs neutral, so get a little three- lamp tester and be prepared to reverse the connections in about half the ones you've wired. Also invest upfront in a good pair of long- nosed pliers, a stubby screwdriver appropriate to the screws on the gfi (probably philips, maybe robertson in Canada), a flashlight, and a low comfortable stool, unless you're a yoga master. Chip C Toronto |
#15
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
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#16
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 26, 12:58�pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , wrote: On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:58:57 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote: Si wrote: we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient.. Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an opportunity to make it safer. Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords. Only idiots cut off the ground pins on plugs !!!! True. Cutting it off takes five seconds. I can bust it out in two seconds with a pair of channel lock pliers. And, no sharp stub left that could cut someone.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire touching the case, shock will result. guess the electrical code is meaningless for you? a nice to have really not necessary? geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything? |
#17
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
Sure. It'll make plugging modern stuff in considerably more convenient. Won't be any less safe than the current situation and you may have an opportunity to make it safer. Less work would be to Dremel off the ground pin on your appliances. Least work would be to fit 3-2 adaptors on your cords. Only idiots cut off the ground pins on plugs !!!! True. Cutting it off takes five seconds. I can bust it out in two seconds with a pair of channel lock pliers. And, no sharp stub left that could cut someone.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire touching the case, shock will result. guess the electrical code is meaningless for you? a nice to have really not necessary? geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything? Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll let go. As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil, water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more. |
#19
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll let go. So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day may be far different As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil, water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.- So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver? Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc. While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get scrapped......... |
#20
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll let go. So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day may be far different As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil, water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.- So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver? Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc. While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get scrapped......... Try 45 years ago, to get earlier than seatbelts and modern brakes. 30 years ago would be a 1978-79 car, and most modern safety equipment came along in the mid to late 60s. I'd love to have my 1978 car back again. Beats the crap out of anything I've had since then. Had most of the modern safety features- disc brakes, R&P steering, good radial tires, modern padded interior, etc. And was a damn sight more fun to drive with that 5-liter v8 and RWD. I hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^( -- aem sends... |
#21
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 26, 10:24�pm, aemeijers wrote:
bob haller wrote: Don't get all excited. If the user gets shocked, 99 times out of 100 he'll let go. So how about the 1% so one out of a hundred die because the homeowner didnt use ordinary care and intentially caused a hazard. Might be a visiting child. While you might let go on a dry day a humid summer day may be far different As for maintaining a vehicle, what's to know? When you run out of gas, oil, water, brake fluid, windshield washer, etc., you simply add more.- So you run a 100 year or even 30 year old car, with no safety systems like seat belts air bags and padded interiors as your daily driver? Do you replace brake pads, inspect tires etc. While your against rewiring a home that might cost 10 grand its likely your driving a car that costs 30 grand or more and might last 13 years till it goes to the junkyard. Thats the average age when vehicles get scrapped......... Try 45 years ago, to get earlier than seatbelts and modern brakes. 30 years ago would be a 1978-79 car, and most modern safety equipment came along in the mid to late 60s. I'd love to have my 1978 car back again. Beats the crap out of anything I've had since then. Had most of the modern safety features- disc brakes, R&P steering, good radial tires, modern padded interior, etc. And was a damn sight more fun to drive with that 5-liter v8 and RWD. I hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^( -- aem sends...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - newer vehicles are more corrosion resistant, often have better gas mileage and pollute less, plus they all have air bags something your 1978 didnt. plus new cars crush in accidents to protect the occupants this is like comparing K&T to current modern wiring. the modern stuff tends to be much safer. just having all connections in boxes help prevent fires. when connections overheat. K&T connections buried in walls where it cant be inspected. and K&T designed for free air, so you shouldnt insulate around or near it, who wants uninsulated honmes today? finally NEVER GROUND TO A WATER PIPE this creates a shock hazard espically in a older home that may not have unified grounds |
#22
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote: On Mon, 25 May 2009 16:42:52 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote: Si wrote: we have a number of older 2 pin electrical wall sockets in our victorian home and most of my appliances are 3 pin. can i just switch them to 3 pin sockets? is there a problem with doing that? depends on whether the boxes are grounded or not. If they are, no problem, but unless you use "self grounding" receps you have to wire the ground terminal of the recep to a grounding screw tapped into the box. If the boxes are NOT grounded (e.g. house wired with 2-wire NM cable) then you have two options - 1) install a GFCI upstream of the first recep on each circuit, and mark each recep with a sticker reading "GFCI protected - no equipment ground" 2) run a ground wire to each box in which you want to use a 3-prong recep. Code allows you to do this in a retrofit type situation; for new construction the ground wire must be So, what you're saying is to run a separate green or bare wire from the service panel to each outlet? I was not aware this was legal in any situations, even though I tend to question why not, because a ground is a ground, whether the ground wire is part of the cable or next to it. Personally, I'd rather add a separate wire as a ground, than to install grounded outlets without a ground. May not be code, but it IS safe, whereas using grounded outlets without a ground wire is NOT safe. That's exactly what I'm saying to do. Better check the latest code to make sure that this is still acceptable, but in the 02 (I think?) version - last one I looked at anyway - it was acceptable to ground a receptacle to an "available point on the grounding system" (I believe I got the wording correct) but only in a situation like you describe, NOT in new construction. In new construction it must be part of the cable, or if you're using conduit, in the same conduit as the other wires. Technically this would mean that in your situation you could use a water pipe, etc. but in reality I think the preferred method would be to pull it all the way back to the neutral bus in your breaker panel, less chance of something going wrong that way (e.g. someone comes in and replaces a run of copper pipe with PVC, whoops, suddenly your ground no longer exists) nate It is still permitted to run a separate ground wire when you have no ground in the supply wiring. Ground wires from multiple outlets could be combined. The ground wire used to be allowed to connect to any water pipe, but not now (for new connections), probably for the reasons you stated. The ground wire now is to go to the ground bar in the panel supplying the outlet, or anywhere on the grounding electrode system. That includes the heavy "grounding electrode conductor" or the first 5 feet of water pipe inside the building (the grounding electrode conductor now has to connect to the same 5 foot section if the water supply is at least 10 feet metal in the ground). Determining which wire is "hot" is most easily done with a "non-contact voltage detector". A 2 wire *neon* test light can also be used - touch one wire to the wire being tested and touch the other test lite wire with a finger. The neon light will light very dimly for the "hot" wire. Only use a *neon* test light for this. -- bud-- |
#23
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
In article
, bob haller wrote: yeah sure, if whatever you cut the ground pin off of gets a hot wire touching the case, shock will result. The odds of that are virtually astronomical. Please look around your house and tell me how many of your electrical gadgets are cased with metal. Even if they were, there's little provocation for wires to jump off and touch the case. Anyway, suppose I get a shock? I've been shocked before. Let's see, about 20 times with 120 VAC, 2 or 3 with 240 VAC, 5 or 6 times with 35,000 volts in televisions, and another 5 or 6 with 450 volts of DC in tube amplifiers. Those last ones were the worst, by far. Really knock your ass across the room. Whenever I get a shock, it reminds me to be more careful. That's a good thing. guess the electrical code is meaningless for you? I believe it contains good suggestions. Similar in importance to stop signs, and speed limits. a nice to have really not necessary? Yep. A replacement for common sense. I prefer the latter. geez do you maintain your vehicle? or run it with worn out everything? I just turned 200k on my 98 avalon. Runs like brand new. WTF does that have to do with a superstitious belief in grounding? |
#24
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
In article ,
aemeijers wrote: I hope to own (or at least drive) a v8 again someday, before they outlaw them or gas is five bucks a gallon, whichever comes first. Too bad it melted like a sugar cube up here in salt country... :^( I'd prefer Cadillac's 1000 hp V16. But I guess they've scrapped production plans. Too bad, it has nice lines. |
#25
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
obviously ther NEC and UL approval are unnecessary. you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved....... I feel sorry for anyone who buys a home from one of these incompetents who feel ground pins should be broken off for convenience |
#26
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone.
espically a child. so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin cut off and dies. wonder if your homeowners insurance would disown you? |
#27
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone. espically a child. so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin cut off and dies. Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a lad. Besides, a goodly percentage of stuff has double insulation and NO grounding plug. If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral, metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm. Those are good odds for any Greek. |
#28
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 27, 10:06�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
bob haller wrote: Hey be prepared to be sued if your faulty grounding kills someone. espically a child. so lets assume a visiting child touches something with the ground pin cut off and dies. Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a lad. Besides, a goodly percentage of stuff has double insulation and NO grounding plug. If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral, metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm. Those are good odds for any Greek. I now belie you are pulling my chain |
#29
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
In article
, bob haller wrote: you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved... I know how many home fires have been saved by grounding. Zero. Now it's your turn. How many lives have been saved? There's the rub, huh? No one knows. But I bet it's more than, let's say, six. (I think I remember reading an authoritative quote from Hey Bub whose meticulous research pegged it at eight. But of course, his political views don't match my own, so I don't ascribe too much reliability to him.) |
#30
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 28, 12:55�am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , �bob haller wrote: you have no idea how many lives and home fires have been saved... by UL, NEC and proper grounding regulations I know how many home fires have been saved by grounding. Zero. Now it's your turn. How many lives have been saved? There's the rub, huh? No one knows. But I bet it's more than, let's say, six. (I think I remember reading an authoritative quote from Hey Bub whose meticulous research pegged it at eight. But of course, his political views don't match my own, so I don't ascribe too much reliability to him.) you post some cites on all this and we can crunch the numbers, perhaps your opinion is clouded by too many shocks over the years? I helped some friends who ended up homeless after their antique lamp caused a home fire. they moved in with us having no other place to go. GFCIs certinally save lives |
#31
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
"HeyBub" wrote:
Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a lad. Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, I figure I didn't live past 25. I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. I pulled a plug from the wall by it's cord. I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the shock. I remember the exact location in the house. We moved out of the that house when I was four, so I was probably three. If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral, metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm. Those are good odds for any Greek. According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. According to http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug |
#32
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 28, 7:45�pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote: Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a lad. Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, �I figure I didn't live past 25. I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. �I pulled a plug from the wall by it's cord. �I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the shock. I remember the exact location in the house. �We moved out of the that house when I was four, so I was probably three. If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral, metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm.. Those are good odds for any Greek. According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. � According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions..pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. � While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy holder? |
#33
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 28, 7:45�pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote: Balderdash! I want all children to have the same opportunities I had as a lad. Looking at all the car seats, safety belts, and other nanny stuff these days, �I figure I didn't live past 25. I have vivid memories of my first electric shock. �I pulled a plug from the wall by it's cord. �I don't know the mechanism for the shock, but I do remember the shock. I remember the exact location in the house. �We moved out of the that house when I was four, so I was probably three. If you add up all the probabilities of an improperly wired hot/neutral, metal cabinet, and internal failure, you're looking at probably no more than one in a million fatalities. What that means is that, of one million kids who visit the OP's home and lick the toaster, only one will come to harm.. Those are good odds for any Greek. According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. � According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions..pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. � While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have been added over the years? grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc |
#34
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
In article ,
Douglas Johnson wrote: According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. According to http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions involving consumer products: ----------------- The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large Appliances," "Lighting Equipment," and "Power Tools." The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the appliance. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting equipment was while the consumer was installing the equipment. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the consumer was using the power tool. --------------------- I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a ground pin. |
#35
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , Douglas Johnson wrote: According to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. According to http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foi...trocutions.pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities. While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions involving consumer products: ----------------- The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large Appliances," "Lighting Equipment," and "Power Tools." The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the appliance. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting equipment was while the consumer was installing the equipment. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the consumer was using the power tool. --------------------- I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a ground pin. Yeah, but somewhere there's a visiting child licking a defective, ungrounded, metal-covered toaster, energized by a swapped hot/neutral outlet while standing barefoot in a puddle on a concrete slab. Or might be. If it saves one innocent child's life... |
#36
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 28, 10:35�pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , �Douglas Johnson wrote: According tohttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html�there were 2,397,615 deaths from all causes in 2004. � According tohttp://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia09/os/2004electrocutions.pdf there were an average of 60 electrocution deaths per year associated with consumer products. �So it's like one death in 40,000 fatalities.. � While it is not a good idea to cut out ground prongs or put in ungrounded, un-GFI'ed three prong outlets, it is a long ways down the list of things that can kill you. -- Doug If you actually read the links, you'll find that cutting off a ground plug is even *farther* down the list than you might think. Here's a telling excerpt from the second link, dealing with electrocutions involving consumer products: ----------------- The three most common product categories associated with electrocutions over the three year period 2002-2004 were "Large Appliances," "Lighting Equipment," and "Power Tools." The most common scenario for electrocutions involving large appliances was the consumer being electrocuted while attempting to repair the appliance. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving lighting equipment was while the consumer was installing the equipment. The most common scenario for electrocutions involving power tools was the equipment coming in contact with electrical wires while the consumer was using the power tool. --------------------- I would attribute exactly *none* of those accidents to lack of a ground pin. perhaps lack of proper ground person died isnt common because most have common sense and leave ground pins intact? |
#37
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy holder? Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts and goblins? This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. A year or so ago, I tried to see if it was real. It was a slightly different context. "Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring and the house burns down." I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. The only thing that might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing the fire. I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. Both immediately said "They'll pay." But don't complain to me if your company doesn't. I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same cause. More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury from your screw up. So I don't do those kind of things. bob haller wrote: Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have been added over the years? grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is kind of tough to prove. Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a someone from a shock. But here is one interesting statistic. There is an excellent book about Chicago in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". It mentions that there were an average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. Not too surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes... According to http://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/ there were a total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. So, yeah. That stuff helps. But let's keep it in scale. If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your troubles. -- Doug |
#38
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
It is permissable to install a three prong recpticle with no ground wire IF
the circuit was GFI protected. You must label each GFI protected recpticle and any down line recpticles, "no equipment ground". Several "no equipment ground" stickers usually come with GFI recpticles. On Fri, 29 May 2009 13:20:26 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote: bob haller wrote: if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy holder? Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts and goblins? This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. A year or so ago, I tried to see if it was real. It was a slightly different context. "Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring and the house burns down." I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. The only thing that might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing the fire. I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. Both immediately said "They'll pay." But don't complain to me if your company doesn't. I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same cause. More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury from your screw up. So I don't do those kind of things. bob haller wrote: Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have been added over the years? grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is kind of tough to prove. Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a someone from a shock. But here is one interesting statistic. There is an excellent book about Chicago in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". It mentions that there were an average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. Not too surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes... According to http://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/ there were a total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. So, yeah. That stuff helps. But let's keep it in scale. If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your troubles. -- Doug |
#39
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
On May 29, 3:41�pm, wrote:
It is permissable to install a three prong recpticle with no ground wire IF the circuit was GFI protected. �You must label each GFI protected recpticle and any down line recpticles, "no equipment ground". �Several "no equipment ground" stickers usually come with GFI recpticles. � On Fri, 29 May 2009 13:20:26 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote: bob haller wrote: if a homeowner installs non grounded 3 prong outlets and a visitor somehow gets killed will their homeowners pay or dis own the plicy holder? Are you asking me to read your homeowners policy or are you throwing out ghosts and goblins? � This insurance won't pay goblin has kicked around the net for years. �A year or so ago, I tried to see if it was real. �It was a slightly different context. "Insurance won't pay if you do some uninspected, not to code, electrical wiring and the house burns down." I looked all through my Texas HO-1B homeowners policy. �The only thing that might let them not pay is if I did it intentionally with the intent of causing the fire. �I also asked two independent insurance adjusters. �Both immediately said "They'll pay." �But don't complain to me if your company doesn't. I can't image the situation is different if someone gets injured from the same cause. �More than the insurance issue is the awful feeling of causing injury from your screw up. �So I don't do those kind of things. bob haller wrote: Perhaps the ow death rate is thanks to the safety systems that have been added over the years? grounding, unifying grounds, circuit breakers, proper wire gauges to carry current, better switches, GFCIs etc etc There is little doubt in my mind that those systems have saved lives, but it is kind of tough to prove. �Nobody files a report when a GFCI trips and saves a someone from a shock. But here is one interesting statistic. �There is an excellent book about Chicago in the 1890's called "The Devil and White City". �It mentions that there were an average of 12 deaths a day from fire in Chicago at that time. �Not too surprising considering open gas flames for lighting, non existent fire codes... According tohttp://firechief.com/news/chicago-fire-deaths7354/�there were a total of 35 deaths from fire in Chicago in 2004. �So, yeah. �That stuff helps. But let's keep it in scale. �If you are not wearing seatbelts, eating right, and controlling weight and blood pressure, ground pins are the least of your troubles. -- Doug- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - my issue was the moron who said just remove the ground pins from plugs it will be fine...... |
#40
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switching out 2 pin for 3 pin sockets in my victorian home
bob haller wrote:
my issue was the moron who said just remove the ground pins from plugs it will be fine...... You are aware, are you not, that: A. Grounding plugs/outlets are of somewhat recent vintage. B. All old electrical appliances and many new appliance do not HAVE grounding connections. C. Outlets/plugs in Britain and other parts of the world do not accommodate grounding connectors (i.e., they are of the two-pin variety). On the other hand, grenades come with only two safety devices: A safety pin and a safety handle. These are almost always adequate to permit safe handling. Grenades could be distributed in a locked box with the key kept by the company sergeant in a safe whose combination is known only to the company clerk, but the layering-on of additional safety regimes would prevent their timely and effective use when a crazed virgin-seeker is about to jump in your foxhole. When presented with a three-prong toaster, a two-prong outlet, and an urgent need for a PopTart, I know what I'm gonna do! |
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